Hi there
Under the rules for Inhabitation it says they use the standard rules for prepared vessels. Now prepared vessels can be Inanimate or Living. Inhabitation rules read as though they presume that a living host is used but doesn't state it explicitly. To add to the confusion, the prepared vessels rule read quite clearly that they apply for both Possession and Inhabitation. AFAIK, the only rules that specifically state living vessels MUST be used for Inhabitation is for Insect Shamans. But no such prohibition exits elsewhere.
So for example, if I decide to create an ally spirit that uses Inhabitation, there's nothing to stop me from using an inanimate vessel, have the spirit possess it and add my dice to the roll to make the spirit become a True Form merge? I've read and re-read the rules here and I'm pretty sure there is nothing illegal by RAW about that.
- J.
Full Version: Inhabitation for PCs
Yeah, it's almost like PCs aren't supposed to get access to that power, and they didn't bother making sure the rules worked. 
Look, my GM will probably deny me this one. But I'm definitely going to try it on....
This is for my Pueblo shaman. I want to create a kachina doll and get the ally to inhabit that, stack the dice so that it becomes a True Form. Boom. Job done. I just see it as an Object Resistance test instead of Willpower.
Also, there's no requirement that I can see for the minimum amount of resources per point of Force, unless I'm using a Homunculus vessel (which I'm not, it would be an Object Vessel). So principally, I can have a teeny, tiny wooden doll (the kachina doll) and get the ally to inhabit the thing and convert it to a True Form like its nothing, effectively making it no different to a materialised spirit at that point.
- J.
This is for my Pueblo shaman. I want to create a kachina doll and get the ally to inhabit that, stack the dice so that it becomes a True Form. Boom. Job done. I just see it as an Object Resistance test instead of Willpower.
Also, there's no requirement that I can see for the minimum amount of resources per point of Force, unless I'm using a Homunculus vessel (which I'm not, it would be an Object Vessel). So principally, I can have a teeny, tiny wooden doll (the kachina doll) and get the ally to inhabit the thing and convert it to a True Form like its nothing, effectively making it no different to a materialised spirit at that point.
- J.
Makes sense, as long as that 'I see it as OR' bit isn't just a house rule. The True Form result is random, right? Otherwise, you're stuck with a crappy doll, hehe. Hope those dice are well stacked.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 4 2012, 05:47 AM) 
Makes sense, as long as that 'I see it as OR' bit isn't just a house rule. The True Form result is random, right? Otherwise, you're stuck with a crappy doll, hehe. Hope those dice are well stacked.
It's an opposed test. The vessel vs the spirit. I'm aiming for a Force 8 spirit, so the spirit gets 16 dice against whatever the vessel is (Inhabitation rules state Willpower + Intuition assuming a living vessel). Caster can then add Binding dice to either the host's roll or the spirit's rolls to skew the probability of getting the merge that you're after.
WORST case, even if I'm unable to use an unliving vessel like I assume, I can still capture a small animal and have the spirit Inhabit the bird and given the Willpower + Intuition of the animal, the net effect will still be the same.
- J.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Feb 4 2012, 12:52 AM)
It's an opposed test. The vessel vs the spirit. I'm aiming for a Force 8 spirit, so the spirit gets 16 dice against whatever the vessel is (Inhabitation rules state Willpower + Intuition assuming a living vessel). Caster can then add Binding dice to either the host's roll or the spirit's rolls to skew the probability of getting the merge that you're after.
WORST case, even if I'm unable to use an unliving vessel like I assume, I can still capture a small animal and have the spirit Inhabit the bird and given the Willpower + Intuition of the animal, the net effect will still be the same.
- J.
WORST case, even if I'm unable to use an unliving vessel like I assume, I can still capture a small animal and have the spirit Inhabit the bird and given the Willpower + Intuition of the animal, the net effect will still be the same.
- J.
Well, you could capture a pixie, surgically remove the wings, Inhabit it with your ally spirit, and then dress/paint it up as a Kachina doll.
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Feb 4 2012, 08:47 AM)
Well, you could capture a pixie, surgically remove the wings, Inhabit it with your ally spirit, and then dress/paint it up as a Kachina doll.
LOLLLLL.... that's just awesome.
- J.
Also, is there any way to guarantee a Hybrid Form merge? The only way I can see is if you split the dice pools as evenly as possible between Vessel and spirit (assuming you know what the Vessel is rolling) and autobuy successes - assuming your GM allows that to occur.
- J.
- J.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Feb 4 2012, 02:26 AM)
Also, is there any way to guarantee a Hybrid Form merge? The only way I can see is if you split the dice pools as evenly as possible between Vessel and spirit (assuming you know what the Vessel is rolling) and autobuy successes - assuming your GM allows that to occur.
- J.
- J.
Give a spirit a spell that can be sustained.
You can manipulate dice pool penalties as you need to, to get what you want.
That'd be a very inappropriate place to use autobuy (I'd go so far as 'wrong', but people get so sensitive). It *is* funny that the mage can give dice to either side, what real reason could there possibly be for that rule? (I'm assuming that manipulating the Inhabitation merge isn't a real reason, hehe.)
QUOTE (The Jake @ Feb 4 2012, 03:26 AM)
Also, is there any way to guarantee a Hybrid Form merge? The only way I can see is if you split the dice pools as evenly as possible between Vessel and spirit (assuming you know what the Vessel is rolling) and autobuy successes - assuming your GM allows that to occur.
- J.
- J.
Mind Control.
Control Thoughts the spirit to buy successes and make sure your dicepool is similar in size. That removes the ability of the GM to "thwart" your Hybrid form.
You can't mind control someone to 'buy successes'. It's not an in-game choice.
"Do this as routinely as you can."
They still have to roll the dice. Nothing in-game gets to decide what their dice do, aside from using Edge. I mentioned above why the *GM* would be wrong to use hit-buying in this circumstance, but characters (or players, for that matter) have no say once the GM decides.
IIRC, it is an optional rule but most GMs allow it. At least those I've played with. Given you control the spirit, you should be rolling, not the GM. He can roll for the host (therein lies the rub) but that's about it.
It'd be a kick in the balls from the GM to suddenly deny you a rule he's allowed you to use since day 1, all because he doesn't like how you're going to use it.
- J.
It'd be a kick in the balls from the GM to suddenly deny you a rule he's allowed you to use since day 1, all because he doesn't like how you're going to use it.
- J.
You're not supposed to do hit-buying for things that really matter, is the point. In normal play, you can't just choose to use hit-buying any old time.
And, more importantly, you can't mind control anyone to do things *they* can't do (like make out-of-character decisions).
If the GM has already set up the rules differently, then… yup, the rules are different. In that case, though, you wouldn't need Control Thoughts in the first place.
QUOTE
Gamemasters should only allow this when the character has an exceptionally large dice pool (and is unlikely to fail) or when the situation is non-threatening and non-stressful. If the character might suffer bad consequences from failing the test, then the gamemaster should require her to roll the test rather than buying hits.
And, more importantly, you can't mind control anyone to do things *they* can't do (like make out-of-character decisions).
If the GM has already set up the rules differently, then… yup, the rules are different. In that case, though, you wouldn't need Control Thoughts in the first place.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Feb 6 2012, 10:04 AM)
Mind Control.
Control Thoughts the spirit to buy successes and make sure your dicepool is similar in size. That removes the ability of the GM to "thwart" your Hybrid form.
Control Thoughts the spirit to buy successes and make sure your dicepool is similar in size. That removes the ability of the GM to "thwart" your Hybrid form.
I don't think control thoughts could do this. Theoretically ending up with a specific merge is in your spirits best interests, and you could probably convince it to spend some of its edge.
A speaker's way adept, though, ought to be able to allow buying hits.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 6 2012, 11:26 PM)
You're not supposed to do hit-buying for things that really matter, is the point. In normal play, you can't just choose to use hit-buying any old time.
And, more importantly, you can't mind control anyone to do things *they* can't do (like make out-of-character decisions).
If the GM has already set up the rules differently, then… yup, the rules are different. In that case, though, you wouldn't need Control Thoughts in the first place.
And, more importantly, you can't mind control anyone to do things *they* can't do (like make out-of-character decisions).
If the GM has already set up the rules differently, then… yup, the rules are different. In that case, though, you wouldn't need Control Thoughts in the first place.
Well you're doing it for the spirit. It's not harmful to the spirit -- either way, it's gonna win.
- J.
Hehe. That's not really the point: it's a critical moment, and the player (clearly!) has a preferred outcome. That mean no hit-buying. Control Thoughts was my real issue, though.
Hmm...Is it possible to inhabit a true-form flesh form insect spirit with your own spirit? After all,it is a LIVING creature (albeit spirit at the same time).
No, spirits cannot be possessed or inhabited. AFB, but it's in there.
No but you can use Vessel Trading on a hybrid or flesh form though. That's come up in our campaign just recently.
- J.
- J.
That is an incredibly scary combination.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 8 2012, 04:28 AM)
That is an incredibly scary combination.
It was funny, a Force 10 free spirit in our campaigned has that as one of her/its' free spirit powers. Used it to eject the shell of a Nymph spirit from a successful Flesh Form merge. Effectively insect spirit died, free spirit inhabits vessel.
Not sure what happens to the memories of both original host and spirit (given the two 'merged') but this free spirit is already incredibly bad arse. I assume it uses the F10 rating as standard posession. It already has Aura Masking so as far as anyone else knows (apart from us) it is the same walking, talking entity it was before. I'm just grateful she *seems* to be on our side...
- J.
Why would the vessel keep all the buffs, sans spirit? That's just begging for abuse. Don't the rules specifically say, 'this is identical to Possession', anyway?
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 7 2012, 10:18 PM)
Why would the vessel keep all the buffs, sans spirit? That's just begging for abuse. Don't the rules specifically say, 'this is identical to Possession', anyway?
Well, "this is identical to Possession, except" and then iterates how they differ. The vessel would lose all the bonuses from Inhabitation, but would gain those from Possession.
First of all, it does not work. It is handled like possession and you can't posses vessels allready taken.
Second of all: The victim would be force on the astral plane (Bad for a human, not so bad for a spirit). So you posses the host and now you have a real angry spirit on the astral plane, wanting to kick you ass!
Second of all: The victim would be force on the astral plane (Bad for a human, not so bad for a spirit). So you posses the host and now you have a real angry spirit on the astral plane, wanting to kick you ass!
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 8 2012, 06:39 AM)
First of all, it does not work. It is handled like possession and you can't posses vessels allready taken.
Second of all: The victim would be force on the astral plane (Bad for a human, not so bad for a spirit). So you posses the host and now you have a real angry spirit on the astral plane, wanting to kick you ass!
Second of all: The victim would be force on the astral plane (Bad for a human, not so bad for a spirit). So you posses the host and now you have a real angry spirit on the astral plane, wanting to kick you ass!
You need to read how the Vessel Trading power works. Your understanding of how it works is fundamentally wrong. For example, the spirit with this power can ANNIHILATE the host spirit. In this case, an Insect Spirit. So it did.
Secondly, I never said the vessel retains its powers gained via Inhabitation, only that it would retains its memories. Which in this case would be those accumulated by the host (and potentially the spirit). The potentially bit is where it gets murky. The free spirit already has Aura Masking which is why she/it was able to mask the aura of the new host. That with the accumulated memories, means everything seems hunky dory.
- J.
@The Jake
Would you please mark the words, which tell me that?
QUOTE
For example, the spirit with this power can ANNIHILATE the host spirit. In this case, an Insect Spirit. So it did.
QUOTE
Vessel Trading
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Touch • Duration: Instant
The spirit can use its Possession power to not only take over
a living vessel, but also to evict the victim’s life force from it, either
ejecting the victim out as an astrally projecting creature or putting
the victim’s life force in its old vessel. If the old vessel already
contains a (previously subdued by possession) life force, the new
victim may not be placed there, and is forced to astrally project instead.
Follow the standard rules for the Possession power (p. 101).
Victims placed into a vessel (living or inanimate) are not able to
control it like a possessing spirit—they are trapped there and typically
find the experience inexplicably horrifying. The only way
they may escape is if a free spirit with this power switches them
back, they are capable of astrally projecting and freeing themselves,
or the vessel is exposed to an astral rift or entity with the
astral gateway power. Victims trapped in an inanimate vessel or
astral space will feel their life force ebbing away, and will die after
(Magic or Essence) x 2 hours.
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Touch • Duration: Instant
The spirit can use its Possession power to not only take over
a living vessel, but also to evict the victim’s life force from it, either
ejecting the victim out as an astrally projecting creature or putting
the victim’s life force in its old vessel. If the old vessel already
contains a (previously subdued by possession) life force, the new
victim may not be placed there, and is forced to astrally project instead.
Follow the standard rules for the Possession power (p. 101).
Victims placed into a vessel (living or inanimate) are not able to
control it like a possessing spirit—they are trapped there and typically
find the experience inexplicably horrifying. The only way
they may escape is if a free spirit with this power switches them
back, they are capable of astrally projecting and freeing themselves,
or the vessel is exposed to an astral rift or entity with the
astral gateway power. Victims trapped in an inanimate vessel or
astral space will feel their life force ebbing away, and will die after
(Magic or Essence) x 2 hours.
Would you please mark the words, which tell me that?
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 8 2012, 11:28 AM)
Vessel Trading
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Touch • Duration: Instant
The spirit can use its Possession power to not only take over
a living vessel, but also to evict the victim’s life force from it, either
ejecting the victim out as an astrally projecting creature or putting
the victim’s life force in its old vessel. If the old vessel already
contains a (previously subdued by possession) life force, the new
victim may not be placed there, and is forced to astrally project instead.
Follow the standard rules for the Possession power (p. 101).
Victims placed into a vessel (living or inanimate) are not able to
control it like a possessing spirit—they are trapped there and typically
find the experience inexplicably horrifying. The only way
they may escape is if a free spirit with this power switches them
back, they are capable of astrally projecting and freeing themselves,
or the vessel is exposed to an astral rift or entity with the
astral gateway power. Victims trapped in an inanimate vessel or
astral space will feel their life force ebbing away, and will die after
(Magic or Essence) x 2 hours.
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Touch • Duration: Instant
The spirit can use its Possession power to not only take over
a living vessel, but also to evict the victim’s life force from it, either
ejecting the victim out as an astrally projecting creature or putting
the victim’s life force in its old vessel. If the old vessel already
contains a (previously subdued by possession) life force, the new
victim may not be placed there, and is forced to astrally project instead.
Follow the standard rules for the Possession power (p. 101).
Victims placed into a vessel (living or inanimate) are not able to
control it like a possessing spirit—they are trapped there and typically
find the experience inexplicably horrifying. The only way
they may escape is if a free spirit with this power switches them
back, they are capable of astrally projecting and freeing themselves,
or the vessel is exposed to an astral rift or entity with the
astral gateway power. Victims trapped in an inanimate vessel or
astral space will feel their life force ebbing away, and will die after
(Magic or Essence) x 2 hours.
Insect spirits don't count as Possessing the host, but Inhabiting by RAW. Also the spirits are merged so they count as one spirit not two for purposes of Vessel Trading.
Additionally since RAW states that it states that the spirit DIES (not counts as disrupted - it outright dies) this indicates on the few possible methods by which you could conceivably kill an insect spirit without actually having to go The Hive metaplane to deal with the spirit.
Arguably the insect spirit could (once ejected) try and invest itself into another host that might be prepared inside it's appropriate magical lodge but that wasn't a possibility in this instance. Given all the characters were under NPC control in this instance and the insect had nowhere else to go, he stated that the insect spirit would eventually die.
Also, to quote SR4A, p.186:
QUOTE
If all of the boxes on a spirit’s Condition Monitor Track are filled
in, that spirit is disrupted and forced back to its home metaplane. Any
services still owed by the spirit are lost.
in, that spirit is disrupted and forced back to its home metaplane. Any
services still owed by the spirit are lost.
Since it isn't taking damage but the power explicitly states it causes the death of the victim, I think it is safe to say that the insect spirit in this case is toast.
There might be more specific rules elsewhere governing how you can actually kill a spirit properly but I'm tired and am going to bed. I think the above is sufficient evidence to prove that you're wrong though.
- J.
But, if the vessel isn't keeping the bonuses… who cares? That's just possession, with the random bonus of displacing the insect spirit. That's not 'an incredibly scary combination', especially not for a 'Greater Power' or whatever.
@The Jake
The text about "death if cast on the astral plane" is for METAHUMANS and the like. Spirit DO NOT DIE in this state. (Or all materialisation (free spirits) would be dead long ago.
If the power is usable on an possesed (including Inhabitation) host is argualbe.
The spirit however WILL NOT DIE. It will have to return to his plane. Again, the text is written for possessing a metahuman host, and not a spirit vessel.
No, it is nonesense. It is safe to assume, that the insect spirit would be immune. It is safe to assume, that if he is not immune he is force back to his plane.
@Yerameyahu
Well, it is kind of scary in the sense of an evil boogeyman. Think you have to spend your last 12 hours on earth, i do not know, lets say as toilet paper.
The text about "death if cast on the astral plane" is for METAHUMANS and the like. Spirit DO NOT DIE in this state. (Or all materialisation (free spirits) would be dead long ago.
If the power is usable on an possesed (including Inhabitation) host is argualbe.
The spirit however WILL NOT DIE. It will have to return to his plane. Again, the text is written for possessing a metahuman host, and not a spirit vessel.
QUOTE
Since it isn't taking damage but the power explicitly states it causes the death of the victim, I think it is safe to say that the insect spirit in this case is toast.
No, it is nonesense. It is safe to assume, that the insect spirit would be immune. It is safe to assume, that if he is not immune he is force back to his plane.
@Yerameyahu
Well, it is kind of scary in the sense of an evil boogeyman. Think you have to spend your last 12 hours on earth, i do not know, lets say as toilet paper.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Feb 8 2012, 07:09 AM)
Insect spirits don't count as Possessing the host, but Inhabiting by RAW. Also the spirits are merged so they count as one spirit not two for purposes of Vessel Trading.
Additionally since RAW states that it states that the spirit DIES (not counts as disrupted - it outright dies) this indicates on the few possible methods by which you could conceivably kill an insect spirit without actually having to go The Hive metaplane to deal with the spirit.
Arguably the insect spirit could (once ejected) try and invest itself into another host that might be prepared inside it's appropriate magical lodge but that wasn't a possibility in this instance. Given all the characters were under NPC control in this instance and the insect had nowhere else to go, he stated that the insect spirit would eventually die.
Also, to quote SR4A, p.186:
Since it isn't taking damage but the power explicitly states it causes the death of the victim, I think it is safe to say that the insect spirit in this case is toast.
There might be more specific rules elsewhere governing how you can actually kill a spirit properly but I'm tired and am going to bed. I think the above is sufficient evidence to prove that you're wrong though.
- J.
Additionally since RAW states that it states that the spirit DIES (not counts as disrupted - it outright dies) this indicates on the few possible methods by which you could conceivably kill an insect spirit without actually having to go The Hive metaplane to deal with the spirit.
Arguably the insect spirit could (once ejected) try and invest itself into another host that might be prepared inside it's appropriate magical lodge but that wasn't a possibility in this instance. Given all the characters were under NPC control in this instance and the insect had nowhere else to go, he stated that the insect spirit would eventually die.
Also, to quote SR4A, p.186:
Since it isn't taking damage but the power explicitly states it causes the death of the victim, I think it is safe to say that the insect spirit in this case is toast.
There might be more specific rules elsewhere governing how you can actually kill a spirit properly but I'm tired and am going to bed. I think the above is sufficient evidence to prove that you're wrong though.
- J.
I have to agree with Irion here: as soon as the Insect Spirit is ejected from the host it is no longer bound by the rules for Inhabitation - namely, it regains Astral Form in the event of a Hybrid Form merge. It defaults to standard spirit rules, such as being able to persist in the Astral indefinately or being able to travel the metaplanes/using metaplanar shortcuts.
EDIT: The ability of a spirit to maintain their own Astral Form kind of removes the "trapped in... astral space" part.
Ditto Neraph's ditto.
But I wasn't saying Vessel Trading isn't scary in general; it is. I was saying that there's nothing scary about the *combination* of that power with a hybrid-/flesh-form. It's the same, because you're not gaining anything special (again, apart from displacing the naughty insect spirit).
But I wasn't saying Vessel Trading isn't scary in general; it is. I was saying that there's nothing scary about the *combination* of that power with a hybrid-/flesh-form. It's the same, because you're not gaining anything special (again, apart from displacing the naughty insect spirit).
QUOTE (Neraph @ Feb 8 2012, 06:16 PM)
I have to agree with Irion here: as soon as the Insect Spirit is ejected from the host it is no longer bound by the rules for Inhabitation - namely, it regains Astral Form in the event of a Hybrid Form merge. It defaults to standard spirit rules, such as being able to persist in the Astral indefinately or being able to travel the metaplanes/using metaplanar shortcuts.
EDIT: The ability of a spirit to maintain their own Astral Form kind of removes the "trapped in... astral space" part.
EDIT: The ability of a spirit to maintain their own Astral Form kind of removes the "trapped in... astral space" part.
I beg to differ:
p.148 Street Magic
QUOTE
Evanescence (Weakness )
Extraplanar entities suffer from a phenomenon known as Evanescence, an irresistible fading of form and Force if they remain in Earth’s astral space. Unfortunately, these beings have learned to counter such dissipation by anchoring
their astral forms to the physical plane, normally through the use of the Inhabitation or Possession powers. Extraplanar spirits can persist in the Gaiasphere for only a limited amount of time. Once a spirit has found its way to Earth’s astral plane (or was conjured, in the case of insect spirits), its astral form begins to dissipate. For each sunrise or sunset that a spirit with Evanescence remains in full astral form, its Force rating is permanently reduced by 1. If the spirit’s Force reaches 0, it dissipates (whether it is disrupted or permanently destroyed is unknown).
A spirit with this weakness that is bound to a magician, or that goes free, only loses Force at the rate of 1 point per week. As a side effect of Evanescence, the astral forms of extraplanar spirits are translucent and harder to detect. Apply
a –3 dice modifier to all Assensing Tests (see Astral Visibility, p. 114 and Astral Perception, p. 182, SR4) against any such spirits in full astral form. This insubstantial form also enables them to bypass astral barriers with greater ease (see Passing Through Barriers, p. 185–186, SR4). Apply a +3 dice pool modifier to the spirit for the relevant test. All effects of Evanescence are negated as soon as the spirit inhabits or possesses a vessel. If it is somehow driven out of the vessel, the spirit’s astral form starts to dissipate again.
Extraplanar entities suffer from a phenomenon known as Evanescence, an irresistible fading of form and Force if they remain in Earth’s astral space. Unfortunately, these beings have learned to counter such dissipation by anchoring
their astral forms to the physical plane, normally through the use of the Inhabitation or Possession powers. Extraplanar spirits can persist in the Gaiasphere for only a limited amount of time. Once a spirit has found its way to Earth’s astral plane (or was conjured, in the case of insect spirits), its astral form begins to dissipate. For each sunrise or sunset that a spirit with Evanescence remains in full astral form, its Force rating is permanently reduced by 1. If the spirit’s Force reaches 0, it dissipates (whether it is disrupted or permanently destroyed is unknown).
A spirit with this weakness that is bound to a magician, or that goes free, only loses Force at the rate of 1 point per week. As a side effect of Evanescence, the astral forms of extraplanar spirits are translucent and harder to detect. Apply
a –3 dice modifier to all Assensing Tests (see Astral Visibility, p. 114 and Astral Perception, p. 182, SR4) against any such spirits in full astral form. This insubstantial form also enables them to bypass astral barriers with greater ease (see Passing Through Barriers, p. 185–186, SR4). Apply a +3 dice pool modifier to the spirit for the relevant test. All effects of Evanescence are negated as soon as the spirit inhabits or possesses a vessel. If it is somehow driven out of the vessel, the spirit’s astral form starts to dissipate again.
I knew I was missing something.
So one could make the argument that death only applies to metahumans, although even the rules here state its unknown. My GM ruled based on Vessel Trading's explicit wording and combined with Evanescence, insect spirit is dead.
Under normal circumstances I would argue that it goes back to its metaplane but this is one of those odd instances where even rules allow the flexibility for it to go either way.
I don't even know why people think I was arguing the spirit retained the powers of the insect flesh form. Not once did I say that. I think everyone is flogging a dead horse on that point.
- J.
Because there's no other reason to care about Vessel Trading an insect spirit form? Lots of ways to kill an insect spirit, especially for a bloody Force 10 free spirit. But Udoshi's the one who said it was a scary combination, and you guys are always looking for the power optimization and rules exploits. I made the incorrect conclusion.
But Udoshi's the one who said it was a scary combination, and you guys are always looking for the power optimization and rules exploits. I made the incorrect conclusion.
@The Jake
So? In what way are you contradicting Neraph.
If the spirit is cast out of his vessel (Which is hard to say, because there are no rules about trying to posses an inhabited subject.) it is on the astral plane. There it may kick your ass for (lets say a good 2 hours) than it should go home, before it starts loosing force.
@Yerameyahu
People who are looking for exploits tend to get the rules wrong... It is a psychological thing. You read what you want to read...
So? In what way are you contradicting Neraph.
If the spirit is cast out of his vessel (Which is hard to say, because there are no rules about trying to posses an inhabited subject.) it is on the astral plane. There it may kick your ass for (lets say a good 2 hours) than it should go home, before it starts loosing force.
@Yerameyahu
People who are looking for exploits tend to get the rules wrong... It is a psychological thing. You read what you want to read...
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 9 2012, 07:44 AM)
@The Jake
So? In what way are you contradicting Neraph.
If the spirit is cast out of his vessel (Which is hard to say, because there are no rules about trying to posses an inhabited subject.) it is on the astral plane. There it may kick your ass for (lets say a good 2 hours) than it should go home, before it starts loosing force.
So? In what way are you contradicting Neraph.
If the spirit is cast out of his vessel (Which is hard to say, because there are no rules about trying to posses an inhabited subject.) it is on the astral plane. There it may kick your ass for (lets say a good 2 hours) than it should go home, before it starts loosing force.
Irion - I don't believe Neraph was considering Evanescence in the singular use case I was referring to. At which point, then it's fair to say - on any other occasion - you two might be right. Except in this one, it isn't clear. Secondly, I just quoted the exact rules that explain it. If basic literacy and comprehension are beyond you, then I dunno what else to tell you - except to say the rules are open you can interpret it whichever way you want. We interpreted it one way. Feel free to interpret it another. Just don't deign to tell me it's wrong because I've just proved it isn't black and white. I'm done arguing with this.
- J.
Well, what did you prove?
That the spirit will loose one point of force if he sticks around for a day?
Great, it does not change a thing.
One hour are around 60*60=3600 complex actions on the astral plane.
Thats more than enough to annoy the crap out of a dual natured beeing.
True but only
I would guess he did. But it actually does not change a thing. So the spirit has to leave earth. What the heck?
That the spirit will loose one point of force if he sticks around for a day?
Great, it does not change a thing.
One hour are around 60*60=3600 complex actions on the astral plane.
Thats more than enough to annoy the crap out of a dual natured beeing.
QUOTE ("The Jake")
except to say the rules are open you can interpret it whichever way you want.
True but only
QUOTE ("The Jake")
If basic literacy and comprehension are beyond you
....QUOTE
I don't believe Neraph was considering Evanescence in the singular use case I was referring to.
I would guess he did. But it actually does not change a thing. So the spirit has to leave earth. What the heck?
Snrk, "deign". Maybe 'presume', but probably 'dare'.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Feb 9 2012, 03:32 AM)
Irion - I don't believe Neraph was considering Evanescence in the singular use case I was referring to. At which point, then it's fair to say - on any other occasion - you two might be right. Except in this one, it isn't clear. Secondly, I just quoted the exact rules that explain it. If basic literacy and comprehension are beyond you, then I dunno what else to tell you - except to say the rules are open you can interpret it whichever way you want. We interpreted it one way. Feel free to interpret it another. Just don't deign to tell me it's wrong because I've just proved it isn't black and white. I'm done arguing with this.
- J.
- J.
No, I wasn't taking Evanescence into account because the spirit does not need to stay around long enough to matter - as Irion pointed out.
I feel weird. Irion and I are rarely on the same side.
Neraph, I wasn't aware insect spirits could return to their native plane when summoned? Or perhaps more precisely, they don't want to return.
- J.
- J.
@The Jake
Beeing drained into nothing is quite a good motivation, even if you do not want to...
Beeing drained into nothing is quite a good motivation, even if you do not want to...
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 9 2012, 01:55 PM)
@The Jake
Beeing drained into nothing is quite a good motivation, even if you do not want to...
Beeing drained into nothing is quite a good motivation, even if you do not want to...
Indeed. It is not a matter of "Want" so much as a matter of Survival.
I didn't think they could go back is my point.
I'm AFB right now so I can't check SM right now.
- J.
I'm AFB right now so I can't check SM right now.
- J.
Every spirit can go back to his metaplane with a complex action.
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 10 2012, 12:37 AM)
Every spirit can go back to his metaplane with a complex action.
Truth.
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