returning to the drawing board after an epic fail at making a Genetech based character I was thinking about transgenic modifications.

Say a character has (any transgenic version of bioware with a rating) could the character then have that bioware installed?

For example a character has rating 2 Transgenic muscle toner (+2 AGI, 16,000¥, .4 essence, availability 10r) could he then have two rating points of Bioware Muscle Toner; (+2 AGI, 16,000¥, .4 essence, availability 10r?)

Would they stack? why or why not?

Would he buy Bioware Muscle Toner at rating's 1 and 2 or 3 and 4 (why?)

is there any pertinent precedent in RAW

I'd say you not only can't stack (it's the same thing), but you can't upgrade transgenic versions at all (you don't upgrade 'ware, you replace it). I'm not even sure you can get any Rating except 1 in transgenic form; it's a very vague rule.

you're saying that the transgenic muscle toner is Exactly the same thing as the Bioware? Even though it's an entierly different technology with entirely different implimentation and implantation processes?

As for not being able to upgrade Bioware muscle toner; Why? What's the difference between some "vat grown elastic fibers" and more "vat grown elastic fibers? You have to remove rating one toner to get rating two? How could you possibly remove them once they've grown into the muscle?

I'm pretty sure successive ratings of bioware stack and I can't see any reason that bioware and transgencics wouldn't stack.

On the other hand if the tech exists to "remove" systemic bio mods; Muscle Augmentation, Muscle Toner, Bone Density Augmentaion, Enhanced Articulation, Orthoskin, Platelet Factories, Symbiotes, then it doesn't seem a stretch to think that transgenic versions can be upgraded or even reversed, especially given the existence of Genetic Restoration and Phenotype Adjustment (Aug p88).

Right?

No, I'm saying it's the same game mod (which is obvious from the name). There's no game rules for 'entirely different technology' that I'm aware of, for the transgenic *version* of a mod. There's also no reason to think that's true: transgenic just means your grow it yourself, instead of implanting it.

If you wanna get RAW crazy, does it even say you can't just keep re-buying Muscle Toner 1 and stacking them?

Presumably, you can remove anything with enough surgery. I forget if there are rules either way for bioware specifically, but certainly 'ware can be removed. Is there a rule that actually says 'upgrade'?

I don't follow your logic: how does the existence of removal tech suggest the existence of upgrade tech? I thought remove-and-replace was my argument. Augmentation says this: "When a character has an implant removed to be replaced or upgraded, this leaves what is known as an “Essence hole"[…]" (Emphasis someone's.)

Personally, I'd like for all augmentations to be labeled as removable or permanent; but none are, AFAIK? The quoted section implies that anything may be removed, and must be for 'upgrading'.

I think I'd allow you to 'overwrite' transgenics by simply replacing (without removing) with the relevant cyber/bio. This seems generous.

except that there are game rules for bioware and there are game rules for genetic enhancement. Different treatment times, different availability. There are also different costs (the exception being transgenic versions of bioware, the two types of tech cost the same.)

Transgenic can't possibly mean that you grow "vat grown elastic fibers inside your body" it more likely means that you grow some organelle with equivalent function.

The quote you mention from Augmentation (p 128) refereing to essence holes is in reference to higher grades not higher ratings ie, an upgrade from basic to alpha. I never mentioned "upgrad tech" because I think it's superfluous you don't need any special technique to add a higher rateing you just add more. As you mentioned; if you want higher rating muscle toner you add a level and it stacks; up to rating 4. Completely removing something like muscle toner surgically would require special tech--Nanotech. My point was we have nano-surgury AND we have Genetic restoration.

I don't understand what you're saying about overwriting transgenics. What does that have to do with any cyber/bio that might be present?

[edit] i forgot to reciprocate with the liberal use of smileys.

Right: you're just wildly speculating at what 'transgenic version of bioware' is. I'm assuming that it's near-identical to the bioware it's a version of. So, no, not 'vat-grown'. Instead, 'body-grown' fibers.

I don't see why you think that section refers to grades, not ratings. The example box specifically refers *not* to grades, and this line is very clear: "Likewise, upgrading an implant often increases its Essence Cost". (A higher grade implant *never* does that.)

Again, there's nothing in this section (or anywhere else I'm aware of) that implies that *any* implant/'ware can't be removed, no matter how nonsensical this seems (nor that any special nano-anything is required). Nor is there any indication (again, AFAIK) that any 'ware can be 'upgraded' without remove-and-replace. Muscle Toner 4 is not Muscle Toner 1+Muscle Toner 1+Muscle Toner 1+Muscle Toner 1 (wrong Avail); many other 'ware examples are even better, of course (Wires 2?).

I'm saying that, if you assume that transgenics can't be 'removed', I'd still allow you to supercede them with the relevant 'ware (Muscle Toner, Muscle Replacement, etc.).

I apologize if one smiley per 70 words is a hardship on you, the reader.

Muscle toner 2 is Muscle Toner 2, no matter where it comes from. As Yerameyahu said, you cannot just buy Muslce Tone 2 twice to get Muscle Toner 4. You cannot buy Wired Relexes 1 twice to get Wired Reflexes 2, nor would you want to do so. That is completely absurd, in my opinion.

Now, that being said, I have seen both interpretations. Some tables allow "Upgrades to the next level" at the difference in cost between the various levels being implanted. However, MOST tables I have been at only allow Replacement Costs. Obviously, some tech cannot be removed, and can only be added to. However, I am a firm believer (and I would bet that you will find most people here on DUmpshock are in this camp) that you pay full price for the replacement.

In this case, the Muscle Toner 2 that you bought for 16,000 Nuyen is being upgraded to Muscle Toner 3. You do not just pay an additional 8,000 Nuyen for the difference in cost; No, you pay the full cost of the Implant, in this case 24,000 nuyen, plus any incidental costs incurred in the hospital while you are being implanted and are recovering. Not sure why you would do it any other way. Yes, this means that you really need to do some planning when you get augmentations. Sometimes you have to be satisfied with what you can afford RIGHT NOW, and other times you may want to wait, because in the long run it will cost you a LOT more money to do an upgrade in stages.

Works the same way with Grade Upgrades.

That being said, I am sure there are those who may agree with you.

As for the interaction of Transgenics and Bioware. Adding a Muscle Toner 2 to a Transgenic Muscle Toner 2 will get you... a Muscel Toner 2. If you want to go to a Muscle Toner 3, well, then you effectively overwrite the Transgenics with the addition of the Bioware MT3. Simple. Transgenics are simply Genetic replication of specific Bioware system, as seen from the animal kingdom's point of view. The fact that it is genetic, instead of bioware, makes no nevermind when it comes to augmenting the system further. Adding something to the transgenic system, of equal or lower value in a bioware system, will have absolutely no effect, since you already function at that level.

Yes, it is done for balance reasons, regardless of what may actually happen IRL in that situation.

I wouldn't even call 'trade-in upgrading' an interpretation, just a house rule for game-ism and play-simplicity. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you know you're ignoring the 'world reality'.

Like I said, I think it'd be nice if the rules *did* specify which items are un-removable, which are in-situ upgradeable, and so on. They don't, but that would be maybe a better system.

First:

I mentioned smileys cause you were using so many It made me wonder if you thought I was being impolite. Guess I was right. I'm just arguing, no big deal.

Because, exactly as you say, the whole page is about "essence holes" which you can't get with a higher rating of the same gear. It refers specifically to grade. There is no mention of rating at all. I thought your use of the quote was in support of your argument that ware had to be removed to be upgraded to a higher rating. I don't see the correlation. I can't find any text that indicates removing rating 1 ortho skin or symbiots is necessary to upgrade to a higher rating of the same gear.

I don't see that my speculation on the nature of transgenics is any more wild than the assumption that what a transgenic modification does is produce exactly the same thing as it's bioware equivelent. Infact the text pretty much says it's not the same thing:(emphasis emphasized by OTP What ever the transgenic mod is doesn't even have to be a close analog to the bioware it only has a similar effect.

As to removing ware, Bioware or Genetech, I'm not arguing that it can't be removed, just that the means for doing so is provided in black and white for genetic mods while we're left to speculate how it might be accomplished for bioware. (I speculate that would be nano-surgical techniques because that has precedent in the setting.) Neither do I see any indication that bioware must be removed to be upgraded to a higher rating. Availability isn't a very good indicator that any bioware with multiple levels of rating is anything more than, synticardium 1 + 1 + 1 = synthacardium 3. Availability dosn't indicate that it's a different material or a different technique or a different process. As far as I can see it's the same thing, just more of it.

So what do you figure you are buying to get muscle toner 4? How is muscle toner 4 different than muscle toner 2? While I see the point you're trying to make about wired reflexes it's obviously an apples and oranges situation. Perhaps a better example of upgrading cyberware rating would be reaction enhancers... Hmmm nope looks like the same situation; same thing just more more of it, additional installments.

I have never heard of this. I've played with several groups and never seen it done that way, not for implants, not for software, not for armor on a drone... infact I think there's RAW reference that you can upgrade the level of magical foci and other telesma. If implant tech is an exception to what I understand to be a general rule, I would really appreciate a RAW reference.

I'm not joking about the smileys. If I come across as an ass for not using them I'm sorry. Most of the time they're just redundant key strokes to me.

Yerameyahu and TJ are right (and, shockingly, in agreement for once!). There is nothing saying transgenic Muscle Toner is different from the bioware version, and although I am not aware of any book reference to back this up, it would make sense that transgenic technologies developed from the existing vat-grown technology (it wouldn't make sense to reinvent the wheel).

So there would be nothing stopping you replacing your superior transgenic muscle with vat grown superior muscle, but it would simply replace and not stack. And if you want to contend that it would, I think burden of proof is on you ...

Except for the text in the book that I quoted. There's nothing that really indicates that they aren't entirely different.

I'd have to say that the development of the bioware was the reinvention. That's what "Transgenic" means; using genetics that already exist in nature in novel applications. We do it now in 2012 making mice glow. An example would be the genetic condition myostatin-related muscle hypertrophy which could be SR's transgenic Muscle Augmentation. Producing biological materials in a vat that can then be surgically implanted without rejection problems and be supported by the body's metabolism is a much harder problem which is why we're making a lot more progress in transgenics than synthetic replacement tissues today.


Bioware doesn't replace Tissue. Cyberware like muscle replacement does, but bioware just adds materials to the "superior transgenic" tissues that all ready exist. So I'm asking, what happens when you add more superior bioware to an all ready superior body?

There is no "burden of proof". There's no way to prove either side of the issue by RAW there just isn't enough RAW concerning the Genetech.

The primary argument against is really metagame; Gear that provides +8 Agility is a bad idea.
My counter argument to that is; Possession Mages.

I'm fairly certain I've read somewhere either in a sourcebook or errata about the whole upgrading cyber/bio question but I'll save that for when I get home and can quote the specific reference.

As for stacking stat boosts, I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Nothing lets you exceed augmented maximums.

So in the grand scheme of things.. can you stack muscle toner 4 (bioware) with muscle toner 4 (genetech)? fuzzy. but it's only relevant if your augmented maximum is 9. and your agility is currently 1.

Yep. that's one thing I wanted to talk about. The topic descriptoion; "Staking Munchkins"

The thing that lead me to the question was my attempt to build a Genefreak STR 13 ork. (I messed it up bad) One of the things pointed out to me was that transgenic muscle aug of rating 4 should have an availablity of 20. (That's not exactly RAW either. Transgenic treatments have an availability of 10R) One work around is stacking two pieces of gear; Transgenic Str +2 (availability 10R) and Muscle Aug +2 (availability 10R). If that works then you can get +8 to Strength, Agility, even Body.

By design in all versions of SR you can't max a stat without having some serious deficiencies in other stats or skills. This would make it easier to max a stat. The "new and exciting" gear in Augmentation, Genetech and Nanotech is pretty underwhelming. I've noticed you don't get many threads about them here. But maybe they're not as lame as they appear at first. Maybe they really are 'Game Changers'.

In the labs that's probably true - on theh market it's rather the opposite. Market-wise, very few would be willing to play with a kid's genome while he's still in the planning stage, with all the attendant costs, unknown long-term effects and questionable legality on the possibility that twenty years down the line it might make him a better soldier. If it turns out he wants to be a pianist or whatnot instead, the investment goes down the drain.

On the other hand, with bioware, you have something that will quickly improve the guys you've already picked as soldiers, without the messy issues of tampering with the genome. Even better there are almost immediate return on your investment.

What technology will hit the stores first is a no brainer.

Note : a guy with a genemod is going to be some interesting problems if he's planning on having kids : First tehre's no guarantee he'll even be able to have kids the natural way if the genomes differ too much in critical parts. It can also lead to messy results in case of partial transfer - enough to screw up the natural features, not enough to get the imrpved one. Ouch. He might even get dragged to court for tampering with the kid's genome without license and for copyright violation for spreading around proprietary genetic material.

Taken from page 93 Augmentation



There you go, by RAW, your GM decides.

Personally I'd let bioware/genetech stack up to the maximum rating listed for original bioware item. So eg, if you stack muscle toner (gene) and muscle toner (bio) I'd cap it at 4. whether it's 3/1 2/2 1/3.

That's at my table though. Your table, your rules.

Still hunting down the references for upgrading cyber/bio.

(edited by OTP to prove a point )
Francis Fukayama would agree with you. (Seems like you're read him.) but Ray Kurtsweil, Joel Garreau, and Gregory Stock disagree to a terrifying degree. No parent will spend money on a designer baby to be a soldier. They will spend money on a baby that is "guaranteed" to be more attractive, intelligent, and long lived. Implanted bioware won't offer the same features. Genetech's market is prophylaxis and enhancement. Biotech will be about therapy and remedy (like the new spray on skin cells for burn victims.)

In SR that's kind of true. In the real world; DOD want's human soldiers 20 years from now about as much as General Motors wanted human welders 20 years ago. Will implant technology happen faster than Somatic Gene therapies? From a technical perspective we're too far away to tell. But from a technical perspective the question is probably moot. Germline therapies will already have happened. And the line between somatic treatment and implant treatment will have blurred to the point that average people won't distinguish between the two.

As for the issues of passing on modified genes to offspring. Gregory Stock puts a different spin on it. The problem won't be that we're passing on "Cerebral Booster" genes to our kids the problem is that we'll be passing on out-dated legacy mods like "Cerebral Booster version 1" when what we really want to give them is the current version "Cerebral Booster version 3"

The best thing here is to throw all REALISM considerations right out. Because, seriously, if you bring int realism, then the first thing I'll say is to throw out essence. the second thing I'll bring is genetically enhanced supersoldiers. who are also mages or adepts or technos. Because if the tech existed in SR, then there is NO FRACKING WAY it wouldn't be used. Maybe the dragons would try to stop it, but a few laws, like today? No way.

Now, in game terms, I think the following should work:

Bioware adds synthetic tissue
Geneware adds grown tissue

Both stack up to the maximum rating, since prices no longer scale up anyway with added ratings. Yes, this is cheating avail a bit, but who cares?

I would also say that upgrading (most) bioware entirely works: You simply add more of the same thing. On the other hand, upgrading (most) cyber obviously doesn't work, you have to replace it entirely, because you are actually adding a complete system.

Not exactly. Bioware adds synthetic tissue to non-augmented tissue, thus adding to the attribute rating.
Geneware causes a part of non-augmented tissue to transform into augmented tissue.
I'd say you can't stack them and if you try, the higher rating overrides the lower one. So with a +3 Bioware and +2 Geneware, you get only +3.

That's before someone gets the bright idea of creating a transgenic Synaptic Booster.

Going back up the thread a bit here, I know, but just wanted to point out that Muscle Toner 4 has to be different to Muscle Toner 2 twice because of Availability. One item at Availability 20 is quite different to two items at Availability 10, particularly at chargen.

But you're contradicting yourself, right there: If you ADD synthetic tissue with bioware, then you now have a muscle made up of natural tissue + synthetic, which is stronger. Then you transform some of the natural tissue to augmented tissue, and then you have MORE augmented tissue (summarily). That means the muscle must automatically get faster/stronger.
Unless Bioware were to replace tissue, I see no stacking issues whatsoever. What you might say is that (as a GM decision) you simply increase the availability of geneware which is supposed to stack, because "it's more complicated", or vice versa. I.e. you pay the same and get the same avail as if you had the rating 4 bioware.

But again, it's purely a game balance issue. Realistically, geneware should have NO essence cost whatsoever and stack with whatever augmentation you add to it without replacing it.

Not if it's the same tissue. But I just needed an excuse to disallow this .

You're simply not making sense, OneTrikPony. The rules I quote unambiguously fail to refer to Grade, nor upgrade-in-situ:Removal is the prerequisite, and removal creates the hole, not upgrading to a higher Grade (you *can* follow the removal with a higher Grade, but you don't have to). Incidentally, this is all the proof needed that you cannot upgrade in-situ; there is no mention of the possibility, only removal to upgrade, in this entire section on 'Upgrading 'Ware'.

Then, it says this:This is only true for higher Rating, or maybe a larger limb (as in the example), but *never* for higher Grade.

Now, if we're speculating, it's easier to assume that Toner 4 is qualitatively distinct from Toner 2; higher-quality fibers, perhaps. Argument from failure of imagination is no good. In game rules terms, we know that Toner 4 is not Toner 2+2; as I said, there are also better examples, like Synaptic Booster.

If you've never heard something, that's not evidence. You're hearing it now. Unless the book *says* that you can upgrade anything and provides rules for doing so ('pay the list price minus what you have', 'pay the full list price', etc.), then you can't. Some tables have house rules for it just for simplicity. Also, you say "That's not exactly RAW either. Transgenic treatments have an availability of 10R." The medical treatment does, but the bioware versions have "comparable Essence costs", as you quoted earlier.

Finally, I wasn't seriously arguing that bioware 'replaces' transgenic. I said, as a GM, I'd allow you to supersede an existing transgenic with a superior bioware (this is usually called 'strongest effect wins'); SeriouslyMike reiterated this. The alternative is to require de-transgene-ing the patient, and that's just a pain.

An alternative is to allow Brainpiercing's suggestion (transgenics and bioware can 'upgrade in-situ' each other, but only if you pay the new-total cost/Ess/Avail). This fails to solve the problem for the non-linear mods (Synaptic Booster), which can end up better *or* worse, depending on their curve. Luckily, many mods are indeed linear now. (And anytime you have to say 'this is cheating, but who cares?', that's a problem.)

If we're talking about 'fixing RAW', then all mods should explicitly be marked as removable/permanent, upgradable, etc., as well as making everything perfectly linear; that way, Toner 2 really would be Toner 1+1, and everyone would be happy.

That is, in fact, exactly how I interpret it. Instead of growing the implant in a "vat" (whatever that is, possibly a literal vat, possibly some bio-engineered animal), your own genes are modified such that your body's own growth/regenerative processes create the same implant in situ without the need for implantation (but you need extensive gene therapy instead).

Probably most should be upgradeable. You think the idea of DLC was bad in video games...

Hehe. I agree: if we were revamping the whole system, I'd make many (most?) things upgradeable, in situ. Be it an enhanced biceps or a cyberlimb, it would make sense to *not* always require remove-and-replace (particularly for the 'linear' mods).

Going back a bit... While it seems like "remove and replace" is a common ruling for upgrading the rating and/or grade of implants, I think that it only makes sense for upgrading the grade of the 'ware. I don't see why increasing the rating would require all new parts, instead of more parts (reflected by a cost equal to the difference between the rating of 'ware you want and the rating of 'ware you have installed). As for stacking multiple levels 'ware from different sources with the same name, I'd say that's silly. I would say that they overlap, that is, transgenic Muscle Toner 2 and bioware Muscle Toner 3 functions at Rating 3, not 5.
You bring up several other points, namely software, drone armor, and magical foci and other telesma. I have never hear of any indication, neither from other posters here on Dumpshock nor from my reading of the various rulebooks, that this is the case. However, except for the last case, these are mostly nonissues, because buying any character who buys software generally buys it at the desired rating to begin with, due to software being cheaper than 'ware. Drone armor is handled through the Armor vehicle modification, and the rules make clear that you can only have one instance of any mod unless specifically stated otherwise, and mods must be removed to free up a slot, and then replaced with something better. Also, if you're putting more armor on a drone, why not just start out at Body x 3? As for magical foci and telesma, I can't really offer much on the topic of foci and telesma, because I haven't worked much with Magicians, but I do know that foci must be bound by paying karma, so it wouldn't be that easy. Do you have a page reference?
It would be nice if 'ware specifically stated if it could be upgraded, either by Rating or by Grade, in situ or if it must be removed and replaced in order to make it better. While we're at it, let's get a glossary of game terms.

Whereas I agree with everyone besides OneTrikPony in that obviously, at least RAI (and probably RAW), these two thing do not stack, I must say, there is a little precedent for them to stack. Racial Modifiers are that precedent. If you are really talking Transgenics, you are talking about changing someone's genes. You are essentially making them not Human. You are, in a way, making them into a Meta-Human species of their own.

Since a Troll gets a genetic +4 STR and can also get +4 STR from Muscle Toner, and these things stack.... from a real world point of view, it's kind of the same as the Transgenic and Bioware. The Troll doesn't even suffer from essence loss...

Those bonuses are not the same thing, though, in the world of Shadowrun.
One is a RACIAL Bonus, the other is a GENEMOD bonus. NOT the same.

I think it's not the same issue, because we're specifically talking about the transgenic *version* of the specific bioware item; i.e., they're the 'same thing', the same mod.

Yes. I agree with you on that Yerameyahu.
I disagree that a Genetic Mod becomes racial somehow, as KeyMasterofGozer was saying.

Oh, you've not tried to play with some of the people who've dropped by the table on occasion...

-Tir

"They're not manly tears, they're bitter ones"

Same people who say you can get 5IPs by just taking 4 doses of Cram (or whichever). At least they have the decency to abuse a *slightly* ambiguous rule.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, how do overdose rules go again?

Trying to abuse the transgenic rules like this is like robbing a bank, but only taking the five dollar bills. If you're going to try to pull shenanigans, at least go whole hog and pull the "genetic heritage lets me get no-essence-cost Synaptic Boosters 3, and then I can buy all the transgenic bioware I want at Availability 10 with a 40% discount" thing.

No, genetic heritage lets you nab one piece of gear without having to pay MONEY for it.
Essence is ALWAYS paid, no matter what. This has been discussed several times.
Stacking is a completely different problem alltogether . .
Nothing stacks in SR, ever. Else, you could stack muscle replacement with bioware muscles.
As for upgrading: rating 1 to 4 is simple upgrade i'd say, changing grade from standard to alpha or something else is a replacement.

also

All right dude, I get it. You're gonna see it your way but you're making up rules. Page 128 of Augmentation says only that if you remove an implant you get an essence hole. It says that that essence hole can only be filled with implants of the type; cyber or bio, that caused the essence loss in the first place. It refers specifically to implant grade but never to rating;
"If a character replaces an implant with one of a higher grade, the new implant may well have a lower Essence Cost"
It even says that upgrading an implant may cause essence loss so as an option a character could remove a different implant to create an essence hole.
Saying that upgrading rating of rated bioware items requires removal of the old grade is your broad interpretation unfounded in any published material of any version 2,3,4,4a of shadowrun. Your quotes from the book do not support your argument. Prerequisite removal is not eve loosely implied.

I encourage anyone else reading this thread to check out page 128 of Augmentation for themselves before jumping on that train. Yerameyahu's house rule is a pretty extreme roadblock to advancing mundane characters in game.


LOL! Why would you say that your speculation is "easier to assume" than my speculation? Yes, higher ratings have higher availability. I don't see any indication that availability = a 'qualitative' difference as opposed to a quantitative difference. Especially since the ratings scale linearly in effect two plus two does, infact equal 4. I really wish you'd stop making statements about what "we know" I'm really not even sure why you're arguing about this. What does it matter if you get 1 level of cerebral booster installed for .2 essence and 10000¥ at chargen and another 2 levels installed for another .4 essence and 20000¥ later? You've still payed .6 essence and 30000¥, right?


What's your point? The black-and-white of it is that any bioware analogue transgenic treatment has an availability of 10r. Yes it's directly stated that essence costs are the same and ¥¥ costs are equivalent to the cost of the bioware, in which case they're usually cheaper. If availability were also equivalent it would have been simple to say so. They didn't. Any mention of availability is very conspicuously absent.

I was being wishy-washy when I said that 'comparable availability' was "not exactly RAW". It's specifically not RAW. I agree that it should be but I'm not going to present my house rules as RAW.




So, what is your argument for the idea that a BIOWARE bonuses are the same thing as GENEMOD bonuses. Why does your premise apply here but not there?

It is not 'loosely implied' that you can only remove and replace. There is literally no mention, ever, of upgrade-in-situ, and none of the rules we'd need for it are present (trade-in value, etc.). Remove and replace is the only option given, in the entire section on "Replacing/Upgrading Bioware and Cyberware". As others corrected you on, this is exactly the same as Programs and vehicle mods, but also Hardware mods (you buy a whole new Response chip for your commlink, etc.), and basically everything else except player attributes (which have specific incremental rules).

In the special case of a strictly linear mod (as I've repeatedly said), you do happen to pay the same ¥ and essence (though you've still cheated the Avail rules). However, there are a number of mods that are not linear: we've specifically considered Synaptic Booster a couple times here. So, yes, we know that Rating 3 is never the same thing as Rating 1+1+1. The availability (and sometimes the legality) works out wrong, even if the costs don't. That's non-trivial.

You're right, I misspoke. I meant to say that we should assume that if the costs and Essence are the same, the Avail is too. It's like assuming it's *not*, except there's game balance instead of twinkery. Given that choice, I always choose game balance. I was indeed giving a 'GM ruling' opinion there, mixed among our rules debates.

AFAIK, it's precisely because the transgenic version of bioware bonuses are the same as the bioware bonuses that stacking doesn't work. It is exactly the same as getting two bioware Synaptic Booster 1s; doesn't work.

While the text mentions that the price of "animal features" biotech as geneware has compareable (not equivalent) nuyen prices, the table specifies the price as 45.000nY+, where the aviability of 10R is stated. Now, a completely cosmetic chage would cost 45.000nY (getting a lions mane), whereas any functional change (getting +2 to STR) would only cost 14.000nY? That is stupid.

Also, what is compareable? The GM can rule that 14.000nY is compareable to 250.000 nY, both are less then 1.000.000 nY.


This clearly resolves the dispute as RAW is concerned: You have to convince your GM that it stacks, or say that it stacks if you are the GM.

It's always funny to see munchkins at work only reading part of the rules and then interpreting them to mean what they want them to mean.
Transgenic alteration is specifically for cosmetic changes, examples for animal features being "haggy lion manes, rabbit’s ears, quills instead of hair, tails,claws, and other animal characteristics.", the next part about functional changes available as bioware is quite obviously still referring to similar animal features and not thinks like muscle toner/augmentation or synaptic booster.

The FAQ didn't help by encouraging it.

When has the FAQ ever helped in anything?

Yes, You and I agree from the perspective of the game and it's mechanics, and RAI (and RAW). I'm just saying from a realistic perspective, it is really more like a racial bonus.

There you go again, bringing Realism back into my Cyperpunk Fantasy.

Off topic, but I thought this was changed in the errata. Does anyone have a reference?

Personally, we've always played that there's a single fluid Essence hole all along.

Because in many cases, maybe you add better parts and not more of the same?

As for Muscle Toner/Augmentation, this is how it is described in the book where it was introduced - Shadowtech



That was RAW then. Obviously, the nature of the material that is braided into the muscle has changed for SR, since Muscle Augmentation now talks about vat-grown muscle cables braided into existing muscle fibers, and incorporating vat-grown elastic muscle fibers into existing muscle tissue.

Given the description of Transgenic modification, I don't think it can really be argued that it does exactly the same thing. Where in the animal world would you find genes that braid extra muscle tissue into existing? That type of Transgenic mod is more likely using the genes from animals with more efficient muscles and altering the existing tissue to match.

So while they provide the same function, I wouldn't say they are the same mod. As for stacking? Well, first you have to find Muscle Toner that is compatible with your new crocodile/human muscles. I'd say use either the existing guidelines for providing bioware to critters - or the rules for Augmentations for Sapient critters if the genetic modifications are severe enough, because let's face it - Joe Croc-muscle here isn't 'just' a normal mnetahuman anymore... (Augmentation pg. 152; GM has final say; similar Essence and nuyen costs, Runners Companion pg. 85; can only accept deltaware bioware and cyberware implants. Optional: can accept non-delta ware, but it is treated as second-hand in terms of essence loss)

Note that I'm not proposing that someone with Transgenic alterations should be treated as a critter for all further augmentation - just apply that if you are trying to modify the new genetic portion. Yes, I'd also apply this to certain SURGEd individuals, when the implant needs to 'work around' their unique physique and genetics (Orthoskin for people with 'thorns', Cyberlims for those with 'elongated limbs', cyberfeet for someone with 'monkey paws'.

Also interesting and somewhat relevant (Runner's Companion pg. 110): Metagenic Qualities may be introduced as Transgenic Alteration geneware. "Bonuses from metagenic qualities that mimic certain cyber- or bio-implants or vice versa are never cumulative."

A Metagenic quality is an alteration of your genes. Transgenic Alteration is an alteration of your genes...

Nice catch on the metagenic qualities.

I still say the rules could and should allow for upgrading in situ (depending on the mod); my position is that they simply *don't*. House rules must fix the problem, as always.

Or, you know, just pull and replace and not worry about it.

Huh? I specifically said my opinion is that some mods should allow upgrading in situ. For that to be possible, house rules are the only way.

And my point is that you could also not really worry about it and just upgrade. Who really cares if it is in Situ or not (Well, I guess if you want to save a bit of money in the long run, you might)? I know that I don't. We have ALways just pulled and replaced (effectively) because we buy the new set at the new sets index points for Essence and Cost. Just like I do with Programs. Or almost any other gear out there (in fact I cannot think of any that differ from that model off the top of my head... You don't pay the difference, you buy the new rating). The only things that do not work that way, effectively, are Skill or Stat Increases, they are incremental.

Is in Situ upgrading really that big of an issue for you Yerameyahu? Whether or not it should rationally work that way?