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Daylen
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 26 2012, 03:46 PM) *
@Daylen
We were talking about the influance power. Or at least I was talking about it.
There is no way you may stop a force 10 spirit alias johnson from using that on you.
This thing will probably have aura masking, it may possibly appear in any form it likes. So the only thing you may get up front is the fact, that the guy you will meet with has no "background".

This all really depends on how much RP is in your RPG. If you are used to getting to know everything about your NPCs down to the name of any pet animal they had since they were born, it is easy for the players to get behind it. And in such a game there will be hundreds of occasions to make a will roll against the influance power. If you don't...

Yes I know its about the influence power. My point is that players should make sure such a power can't be used on them to any detrimental affect. It doesn't matter if the power would work if the players make sure it never gets used on them.
Irion
@Daylen
There is no way.
The only way to find out if you are talking to a free spirit is force him to read something on a screen. (If your GM goes along with the interpretation from RC that they can't and that it is not fixed by taking the low light vision power)

Other than that? A realistic form free spirit has NO HISTORY, NO NEED FOR FOOD, NO NEED FOR SHELTER (Hell not even air).
Those things take "living off the grid" to a new level.

This power is used in one action with NO WAY of seeing it coming. There is NO defence against it (Other than increasing willpower to max, which can only be done by the increase willpower spell.) And even with a Willpower of 9 or even 12, a spirit with force 9 or higher will probably "win".
The the only option would be resisting with edge...
kzt
QUOTE (Daylen @ Feb 26 2012, 11:20 AM) *
Yes I know its about the influence power. My point is that players should make sure such a power can't be used on them to any detrimental affect. It doesn't matter if the power would work if the players make sure it never gets used on them.

You can't. Counter magic doesn't impact it and I'm not even sure by RAW you can detect it in use. It's mental command, so you don't have to be able to understand the spirit or even hear it. The only solution is to avoid being in proximity to a spirit.
kzt
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 26 2012, 11:32 AM) *
Other than that? A realistic form free spirit has NO HISTORY, NO NEED FOR FOOD, NO NEED FOR SHELTER (Hell not even air).
Those things take "living off the grid" to a new level.

And just like runners buy fake IDs, a FS can do exactly the same thing if it feels like it.
Irion
@kzt
QUOTE
And just like runners buy fake IDs, a FS can do exactly the same thing if it feels like it.

Which adds insult to injury... (Meaning not only are you close to unable to trace them, they have also all the possibilities to spoof an identity... And due to the fact, that they do not need to stick to one human form, it is even worse)

Daylen
QUOTE (kzt @ Feb 26 2012, 08:03 PM) *
...The only solution is to avoid being in proximity to a spirit.

Now you're starting to get the idea. The whole team, if any, should never be in proximity to an unknown. And by having pre agreed to rules of how to conduct meets the team should be able to figure out if any magic is being used against their representative. I take it you've never played in a party (as a mundane) where a fellow player was a magic user and was determined to have things their way and screw the rest of the party.
Daylen
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 26 2012, 08:20 PM) *
@kzt

Which adds insult to injury... (Meaning not only are you close to unable to trace them, they have also all the possibilities to spoof an identity... And due to the fact, that they do not need to stick to one human form, it is even worse)

However, a decent team should be able to realize a switch of some sort happened; that alone should be enough to figure out what is going on.
Glyph
While I think the game is recoverable, I do think making it such a high Force spirit was a mistake, for a group of mundanes. I mean, forget the Influence power, the thing also has 24 points of hardened armor, 12+ dice for passive dodging... there really isn't much they can do to it. If the Force hasn't been set in stone yet, I would consider drastically reducing it, to something that can, at least, be damaged with difficulty by full-auto fire. Otherwise, there isn't much of a point - it's an NPC that the group won't be able to harm in any way.
Irion
It was pointed our earlyer, that this is most likely the most benefitial outcome for the runners, this scenario had to offer. (Unless they had access to some Deus ex machina,like the sword of spiritslaying)

So the run is salvageable BUT for the futur make sure the runners may reach the goals you are aiming for.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 26 2012, 02:10 PM) *
While I think the game is recoverable, I do think making it such a high Force spirit was a mistake, for a group of mundanes. I mean, forget the Influence power, the thing also has 24 points of hardened armor, 12+ dice for passive dodging... there really isn't much they can do to it. If the Force hasn't been set in stone yet, I would consider drastically reducing it, to something that can, at least, be damaged with difficulty by full-auto fire. Otherwise, there isn't much of a point - it's an NPC that the group won't be able to harm in any way.


Full Auto Fire does not count for purposes of defeating Hardened Armor. It must penetrate before adding the FA modified damage. smile.gif
But yes, a Force 10+ Spirit is crazy powerful. You really do not need more than Force 6 to pull this scam off with a Free Spirit.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 27 2012, 03:59 AM) *
Full Auto Fire does not count for purposes of defeating Hardened Armor. It must penetrate before adding the FA modified damage. smile.gif
But yes, a Force 10+ Spirit is crazy powerful. You really do not need more than Force 6 to pull this scan off with a Free Spirit.

Which is why you use FA wide burst with APDS (or cheat&shock, if you're so inclined) to at least maximise your net hits. However, a high force spirit (and if the force isn't set in stone, I would quietly retcon this) has so many dice just for reaction, and full def will likely still leave it some dice - with edge - to avoid being hit by 10 net hits. That being said, every full defense is a round won. The other option is sniping it. Get one of those ridiculous guns from WAR and full-auto snipe it with edge and APDS. If you're lucky you'll get enough hits, and then a narrow burst will make sure you actually kill it. Actually, scrap that, use a Called shot narrow burst for +4 with maximum add-on aiming. Called shots entirely make no sense against spirits, but are still perfectly RAW.

Personally, though, I would try to catch it between a rock and a hard place and bring out the blasties. If you can get the spirit to get into an armoured vehicle and then blow it up from the inside, that might work. This will require some play, though:

You lure it into the vehicle to do something, and then need a convenient excuse to leave. The involved PC won't have to move too far away from the vehicle, because the blast will be contained, so maybe just pretending to want to stop at a food stall might work. A spirit of high force should be immeasurably sure of itself to the point of arrogance, because realistically so few things can hurt it. It might be smart to play on that arrogance.

Another option is simply a narrow alley. If the runners were to pretend to want to do more business, she might be lured to a meet. And then you simply make use of the explosives rules - only direct lines get reflected and amplified. So if the runners stand just a few meters away, with her ideally standing directly between the explosion and a wall, she'll take the maximum chunky salsa brunt, while they just take the normal blast and survive. I've had runners use a taser to fire the charge just at the right moment, so, say, the runners wait for her in the alley, while one of them keeps a concealed taser on standby. When she she passes the object where the bomb is hidden, the runner fires the taser at a bit of blast-chord that connects directly to the primer on the big charge. Don't use a fuse, since that will delay things. Of course, a simple detonation switch will also work, but blast chord is just simpler, and likely requires little to no explosives skill.
Seriously Mike
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 26 2012, 03:16 PM) *
@Seriously Mike
Sorry, but negative clues are very often "the GM did not think about it" and are ingame ignored.

Yes, you can take a jump at the GM whenever the shadows he is describing do not fit the time of day...

The "Thats not my mom"-part sounds like a decent give away, but again I was not in the room. I do not know how this turned out in play.

Well, I believe in the Law of Conservation of Detail - the GM should expect players start searching for any info on the Johnson and should have it handy - simple BS jobs should have basic info like "Dude Dudeson, manager at Brofist Brass Knuckle Co., small-time stingy bastard, now sod off.", bigger hitters should have either vague hints at being bigger hitters or some testimonial rumors (or both), maybe more if your info digging skills are high, but when a guy's a black hole it's a flag you're screwed (I have a similar case in my campaign - I still have no idea who the Johnson is and what'd he want. I think I'll stick with who I based him on and make him the head of a clandestine government/corporate (flip a coin) mercenary/shadowrunner outfit). LoCoD would also make me raise a flag when I heard of a string of kidnappings and the job being connected to it by the media and police.

QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Feb 26 2012, 05:47 PM) *
@Seriously Mike:
Your earlier comments were harsh, and your advice borderline unfun. That's all I was getting at. Even with all the investigations in the world they would not have been able to stop the deal the moment they met the J in the park, because at that moment they would have been officially dead, or worse. Their investigations would have had to produce precise info that they are dealing with a spirit, and also precise info as to how to deal with her.

Personally, the run could really not have gone any other way. I would have said an F8 spirit is PLENTY to make a group of mundane runner piss their pants; depending on their hardware I would have used F7 or 8, personally. I am currently GMing a run not unlike this one, and I'm still debating with myself how high to go with the force. And we DO have a perfectly capable mage. The spirit still has the edge in each individual DP.

Point taken, which of course doesn't change the fact that they had enough hints to never even see the Johnson for the second time (when I think of it now, the Barrens bit should have started with some low-level mook fight for a place to lay low and then serve as a breather for the players to fix their stuff and gather some more info). However, I think I've missed how powerful the spirit exactly was. Really F10+?

QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 26 2012, 10:10 PM) *
While I think the game is recoverable, I do think making it such a high Force spirit was a mistake, for a group of mundanes. I mean, forget the Influence power, the thing also has 24 points of hardened armor, 12+ dice for passive dodging... there really isn't much they can do to it. If the Force hasn't been set in stone yet, I would consider drastically reducing it, to something that can, at least, be damaged with difficulty by full-auto fire. Otherwise, there isn't much of a point - it's an NPC that the group won't be able to harm in any way.

I looked into Shedim for my campaign and came to a conclusion they're monstrous even at F5. Of course my team is a tad short on dakka, which doesn't change the fact that spirits usually have a crapload of nasty magical tricks at their disposal, AND that crazy armor. Even 10 points of Hardened Armor stop most weapons.

QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 26 2012, 10:58 PM) *
It was pointed our earlyer, that this is most likely the most benefitial outcome for the runners, this scenario had to offer. (Unless they had access to some Deus ex machina,like the sword of spiritslaying)

So the run is salvageable BUT for the futur make sure the runners may reach the goals you are aiming for.

Coming up in the next session: "Combat Mage: The Next Generation"!
Irion
@Seriously Mike
QUOTE
I looked into Shedim for my campaign and came to a conclusion they're monstrous even at F5. Of course my team is a tad short on dakka, which doesn't change the fact that spirits usually have a crapload of nasty magical tricks at their disposal, AND that crazy armor. Even 10 points of Hardened Armor stop most weapons.

Well, the problem is mostly how SR works at the high end.
The guy with the first net-hit on an attack wins...

Spirits get to ignore up to 2 points of Damage per point of Force.
Spirits may soak 2/3 Points of damage per point of force.
Spirits get additional HP of Force/2.

I think this makes it quite obvious.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Feb 27 2012, 10:48 AM) *
Well, I believe in the Law of Conservation of Detail - the GM should expect players start searching for any info on the Johnson and should have it handy - simple BS jobs should have basic info like "Dude Dudeson, manager at Brofist Brass Knuckle Co., small-time stingy bastard, now sod off.", bigger hitters should have either vague hints at being bigger hitters or some testimonial rumors (or both), maybe more if your info digging skills are high, but when a guy's a black hole it's a flag you're screwed (I have a similar case in my campaign - I still have no idea who the Johnson is and what'd he want. I think I'll stick with who I based him on and make him the head of a clandestine government/corporate (flip a coin) mercenary/shadowrunner outfit). LoCoD would also make me raise a flag when I heard of a string of kidnappings and the job being connected to it by the media and police.

Well... the team DID do some legwork, apparently, just didn't turn up anything much useful, or didn't act on it. Perspective matters in this respect. My players are pretty acute by now when things are off (I did give them a nice double-cross on the first run I GMed for them), but then I tend to be heavy handed with dropping the hints - if they roll their perception or data search or whatever well enough, I will point out "you notice this and that". Which will usually be things that are out of the ordinary. But IMHO you have to train your players to look out for these things, and above all make them expect that they will be able to act on this information.

QUOTE
Point taken, which of course doesn't change the fact that they had enough hints to never even see the Johnson for the second time (when I think of it now, the Barrens bit should have started with some low-level mook fight for a place to lay low and then serve as a breather for the players to fix their stuff and gather some more info). However, I think I've missed how powerful the spirit exactly was. Really F10+?

IMHO low level mook fights tend to waste time and be fairly boring. Of course, low level mooks with automatic weapons can quickly change that, but...

I also don't know where the F10 came from. I looked over the thread again and found no immediately visible reference to the force. Maybe this was actually a mixup with the other thread that dealt with an F10 free spirit?

So...concerning not ever showing up at the meet: I think there's a disconnect in perspective here: Things are off. ok. But with Johnsons, things SHOULD be off. Because a good J will reveal as little as possible. Also, I am inclined to say that this isn't so much a character problem, as a player problem: Do you have your character walk away from a meet because a few things don't add up? Possibly pissing off your GM in the process? From YOUR perspective, the way you argued before, not showing up would result in some sort of smackdown.
And from a character perspective: Even IF the kids say that this is not their mother... these guys are runners. Where do you draw the line? And then what do you do? The only convenient way to deal with a possible double-cross - and mind you, that never happened, the J was true to her word, the runners got paid - is always use sniper cover. To that I've heard (on these boards) that J's should demand that all members are always present at the meet. So... then you need to hire a sniper or use a drone. But now, at what point do you tell your overwatch guy to take his shot? Just to save some kids you could care less about? Remember the J didn't actually do anything to them, just possibly lied about the kids.

QUOTE
I looked into Shedim for my campaign and came to a conclusion they're monstrous even at F5. Of course my team is a tad short on dakka, which doesn't change the fact that spirits usually have a crapload of nasty magical tricks at their disposal, AND that crazy armor. Even 10 points of Hardened Armor stop most weapons.

Well... a decent shooter can make any assault rifle and subgun with decent ammo deal with 10-12 points of hardened armour. I think above that it becomes difficult. If none of the runners have heavy machine guns or sniper rifles and S&S is not an issue in the group, then an F7 spirit should be enough to make a prolonged fight with the PCs. If S&S is spammed, or the PCs have heavy weapons of various types - AV rockets, an abundance of willy pete grenades or similar, I think you need F8.

In my group we don't spam S&S, and it was nerfed a bit. We had one encounter, before I GMed, with a regular non-free F7 (actually F6 aspected domain) spirit, and our sam hurt it, but couldn't kill it.
Then again I've used 10-15 dice opposition to seriously injure our mage's F6 spirits. Still couldn't actually kill one with bullets alone, just got them down to two or three boxes.
kzt
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Feb 27 2012, 02:46 AM) *
Which is why you use FA wide burst with APDS (or cheat&shock, if you're so inclined) to at least maximise your net hits. However, a high force spirit (and if the force isn't set in stone, I would quietly retcon this) has so many dice just for reaction, and full def will likely still leave it some dice - with edge - to avoid being hit by 10 net hits.

None of these really help. At best you force it onto the metaplane for a month. Then it comes back, finds you with search, then kills you by materializing in your bedroom at 2am and manabolting you, then sets fire to building. An angry high force free spirit is crazy dangerous.

Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (kzt @ Feb 27 2012, 06:15 PM) *
None of these really help. At best you force it onto the metaplane for a month. Then it comes back, finds you with search, then kills you by materializing in your bedroom at 2am and manabolting you, then sets fire to building. An angry high force free spirit is crazy dangerous.

True enough.... smile.gif

It'll be a character decision on whether it actually wants to do these things. Who knows? Spirits don't have to act like humans.
Irion
The ingame logic kind of breaks if you think about free spirits.

With the introduction of free spirits as PCs there should have been several rules put in place. As it stands nothing stops a free spirit from going force 5 to 15 in about a year.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 27 2012, 11:04 AM) *
The ingame logic kind of breaks if you think about free spirits.

With the introduction of free spirits as PCs there should have been several rules put in place. As it stands nothing stops a free spirit from going force 5 to 15 in about a year.


Nothing Stops a Standard PC from doing so, assuming the karma is therr; which you are already assuming for the Free Spirit, apparently.
kzt
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 27 2012, 02:37 PM) *
Nothing Stops a Standard PC from doing so, assuming the karma is therr; which you are already assuming for the Free Spirit, apparently.

No, it's that a FS has a bunch of tools that they can use to gain karma at a crazy rate while not doing anything.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (kzt @ Feb 27 2012, 02:39 PM) *
No, it's that a FS has a bunch of tools that they can use to gain karma at a crazy rate while not doing anything.


Only if the GM is crazy and allows the FS-PC to have those obscure/questionable powers. I wouldn't.
The only immediately available one I can see is the Spirit Pact for Healing. Which will possibly allow some amount of Karma to flow in, assuming the pacted Characters actually use this ability. Don't really see it though.
Daylen
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 26 2012, 06:32 PM) *
@Daylen
There is no way.
The only way to find out if you are talking to a free spirit is force him to read something on a screen. (If your GM goes along with the interpretation from RC that they can't and that it is not fixed by taking the low light vision power)

Other than that? A realistic form free spirit has NO HISTORY, NO NEED FOR FOOD, NO NEED FOR SHELTER (Hell not even air).
Those things take "living off the grid" to a new level.

This power is used in one action with NO WAY of seeing it coming. There is NO defence against it (Other than increasing willpower to max, which can only be done by the increase willpower spell.) And even with a Willpower of 9 or even 12, a spirit with force 9 or higher will probably "win".
The the only option would be resisting with edge...

Are you arguing with me or yourself? You have claimed something is impossible yet given some clues and methods that show otherwise.

So what if the power is used instantaneously and works perfectly? Simply don't be there for it to work on you. Send a random idiot that is being paid to obey your commands through a comm link or send a single member of the party rigged up similarly so others can hear and see independently and not be effected. Watch the dumby to see what is tried on him. When he doesn't ask your question something is up, when he does something outside the plan something is up.

You guys really lack imagination when dealing with magic users.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Daylen @ Feb 27 2012, 03:08 PM) *
You guys really lack imagination when dealing with magic users.


I prefer dealing with magicians from the business end of a Barrett... smile.gif
Critias
QUOTE (Daylen @ Feb 27 2012, 06:08 PM) *
Are you arguing with me or yourself? You have claimed something is impossible yet given some clues and methods that show otherwise.

So what if the power is used instantaneously and works perfectly? Simply don't be there for it to work on you. Send a random idiot that is being paid to obey your commands through a comm link or send a single member of the party rigged up similarly so others can hear and see independently and not be effected. Watch the dumby to see what is tried on him. When he doesn't ask your question something is up, when he does something outside the plan something is up.

You guys really lack imagination when dealing with magic users.

All of which requires an amount of paranoia likely not to be found in a trio of players who are new to the game, and who -- as mundanes -- may or may not have any idea in or out-of-character what magical threats are out there.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Daylen @ Feb 27 2012, 11:08 PM) *
You guys really lack imagination when dealing with magic users.

Except if you're mundane you haven't slightest that you actually ARE dealing with one until they do obviously supernatural stuff. And then you have to be completely paranoid of EVERYONE. Which makes the game largely unplayable, like a rock-paper-scissors one-upping contest. Believe me, I've been there (yes, actually the rock-paper-scissors smile.gif). There's a reason you either need a mage in the group or have to play in a low-magic world. It doesn't really work well any other way.

I don't even see a reliable way to do this, in game. So you meet a J - even one you don't know, and for whom the fixer can't vouch in any way. The J is expecting to see his team, but instead he sees some random Joe, and just maybe might spot a guy a half a click away watching through the business end of a sniper rifle. Do you see him doing business like that? My Js would walk away, even the stupid ones, and especially the non-legit ones.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 27 2012, 03:59 AM) *
Full Auto Fire does not count for purposes of defeating Hardened Armor. It must penetrate before adding the FA modified damage. smile.gif
But yes, a Force 10+ Spirit is crazy powerful. You really do not need more than Force 6 to pull this scam off with a Free Spirit.


Was this changed anywhere? Afaik, the Hardened Armor (modified by AP) must be at least equal to the modified Damage Value to negate the attack, and Immunity says that it works as Hardened armor.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Feb 28 2012, 01:04 AM) *
Was this changed anywhere? Afaik, the Hardened Armor (modified by AP) must be at least equal to the modified Damage Value to negate the attack, and Immunity says that it works as Hardened armor.

It's always been like this. Modified DV is only base DV + net hits + ammo bonus. Burst bonus or FA bonus doesn't count. It's specified either in the burst fire description, or in the basic armour description that explains conversion to stun damage.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Feb 28 2012, 01:27 AM) *
It's always been like this. Modified DV is only base DV + net hits + ammo bonus. Burst bonus or FA bonus doesn't count. It's specified either in the burst fire description, or in the basic armour description that explains conversion to stun damage.


Ah, there it is! The only mention is in the description for short bursts - long and full bursts on the next page only says 'modifiy DV'. Thank you - I shall now ask the player who pointed me to the description for full bursts to read the previous page smile.gif (that should settle the discussion we had last session...)
Glyph
Narrow bursts don't add to the DV when determining armor penetration, but wide bursts can be helpful in negating some of a spirit's (usually high) dice pool for dodging. My point was, if you're going to introduce a spirit as an antagonist for a mundane group, make sure it is one that can be damaged by them. Unfortunately, the way hardened armor works, there is often a sharp demarcation between "shrugs off every attack" and "drops with the first hit".
Daylen
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Feb 28 2012, 12:40 AM) *
Except if you're mundane you haven't slightest that you actually ARE dealing with one until they do obviously supernatural stuff. And then you have to be completely paranoid of EVERYONE. Which makes the game largely unplayable, like a rock-paper-scissors one-upping contest. Believe me, I've been there (yes, actually the rock-paper-scissors smile.gif). There's a reason you either need a mage in the group or have to play in a low-magic world. It doesn't really work well any other way.

I don't even see a reliable way to do this, in game. So you meet a J - even one you don't know, and for whom the fixer can't vouch in any way. The J is expecting to see his team, but instead he sees some random Joe, and just maybe might spot a guy a half a click away watching through the business end of a sniper rifle. Do you see him doing business like that? My Js would walk away, even the stupid ones, and especially the non-legit ones.


So you aren't paranoid about everyone? I've never heard of the entire team making a meet, usually one or two players who know how to negotiate. I simply think the brain of the group should direct the talker from afar and have some Barrett(or larger) backup. Using a random dude would be reserved for obvious traps and then only sometimes. I do agree that having a mage simplifies things potentially.
Daylen
QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 28 2012, 12:03 AM) *
All of which requires an amount of paranoia likely not to be found in a trio of players who are new to the game, and who -- as mundanes -- may or may not have any idea in or out-of-character what magical threats are out there.

Good point, I forget other people don't take magic and occult background knowledge and read about everything that should give PCs info about to be ready for subtle hints. I think any such paranoia would have been and is many times justified in SR. Considering runners are expendable assets and source books make it standard procedure to figure out who a group is really working for.
kzt
QUOTE (Daylen @ Feb 27 2012, 07:53 PM) *
Good point, I forget other people don't take magic and occult background knowledge and read about everything that should give PCs info about to be ready for subtle hints. I think any such paranoia would have been and is many times justified in SR. Considering runners are expendable assets and source books make it standard procedure to figure out who a group is really working for.

Part of being a deniable asset is that said deniable asset needs to avoid knowing who they are really working for. So encouraging people to figure out who they are working for is bad. It not only makes you "the man who knew too much" for the Johnson, it makes you a source of info for the target you just hit.

That's why the idea that the targets won't come after the runners is silly. They may not really care that much about the runners, but the runners can often give away the guy who hired them and their fixer. And the target does dearly want to know that. Then they'll usually shoot the runners in the head and leave their bodies in a ditch somewhere on general principles.

So we typically didn't try to figure out who we were really working for. A mission was acceptable or not independent of whether it was for the little sisters of the poor or for aztechnology, so it really didn't matter from that pov. And it kept us from being a target to roll up the Johnson.

In reality, the whole "Johnson meet" trope is pretty silly considering that the whole reason for employing runners is to avoid any soft of connection, which the traditional SR "Johnson meet" completely undermines.
Midas
QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Feb 27 2012, 09:48 AM) *
Well, I believe in the Law of Conservation of Detail - the GM should expect players start searching for any info on the Johnson and should have it handy - simple BS jobs should have basic info like "Dude Dudeson, manager at Brofist Brass Knuckle Co., small-time stingy bastard, now sod off.", bigger hitters should have either vague hints at being bigger hitters or some testimonial rumors (or both), maybe more if your info digging skills are high, but when a guy's a black hole it's a flag you're screwed (I have a similar case in my campaign - I still have no idea who the Johnson is and what'd he want. I think I'll stick with who I based him on and make him the head of a clandestine government/corporate (flip a coin) mercenary/shadowrunner outfit). LoCoD would also make me raise a flag when I heard of a string of kidnappings and the job being connected to it by the media and police.

I am with kzt on this one. Deniable assets ain't deniable if they find out exactly who they are working for. If they get caught, the Johnson is compromised, and the Corporate Courts get involved. I know canon is a bit schizophrenic on this (the fluff tells you it's terrible runner ettiquette, but a few published adventures punish the PCs for not doing so). I know researching the Johnson is SOP on some tables, but please don't assume it is on all, certainly to the degree of the Johnson's real name and company.

And while most of the pro Johnsons I run don't simply vanish into thin air, they will use disguise and a fake commlink (with the real one off and therefore unhackable) to aggressively protect their annonymity. And God forbid should they ever find out the PCs have unmasked them, because then the PCs become a proverbial loose end to be tied up by any means necessary.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 28 2012, 12:03 AM) *
All of which requires an amount of paranoia likely not to be found in a trio of players who are new to the game, and who -- as mundanes -- may or may not have any idea in or out-of-character what magical threats are out there.

That is why my mundane chars have the knowledge skill "magical threats" at rating 1 or 2 ^^
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Midas @ Feb 28 2012, 06:40 AM) *
I am with kzt on this one. Deniable assets ain't deniable if they find out exactly who they are working for. If they get caught, the Johnson is compromised, and the Corporate Courts get involved. I know canon is a bit schizophrenic on this (the fluff tells you it's terrible runner ettiquette, but a few published adventures punish the PCs for not doing so). I know researching the Johnson is SOP on some tables, but please don't assume it is on all, certainly to the degree of the Johnson's real name and company.

And while most of the pro Johnsons I run don't simply vanish into thin air, they will use disguise and a fake commlink (with the real one off and therefore unhackable) to aggressively protect their annonymity. And God forbid should they ever find out the PCs have unmasked them, because then the PCs become a proverbial loose end to be tied up by any means necessary.

So that is the thing: It's a fine line to work. Knowledge is always power, but power doesn't always keep you safe. If the J finds out you've been digging, he might come after you. As a GM, if I want my runners to dig, I'll try to give them a reason: The J seems unprofessional, the fixer doesn't know him, the pay seems too good, some things don't add up, etc. At that point it may still not be safe to dig for info, but still potentially safer than not digging.
There's even another angle: If the J seems not too intent on keeping his identity a secret, then either he's trying to give you false info, or he doesn't expect you to survive the run.
I would consider it good practice to get as much info as you can prior to and during the meet itself: You take pictures, you astrally observe him and his backup. You take note of his vehicle(s). It may be possible to hack Gridguide to see where his vehicle came from, depending on whether he's putting up a legal front or not. At least you'll find out where he switched vehicles, if he did. If he complains, you can still just leave at that point, because you haven't yet done business. If you have a TM you can try to hack his commlink, but no non-TM should try this, because only TMs can really get a rating 12 Stealth program, which is the only reliable way of not getting caught hacking. I've had rating 4 systems detect stealth 6 intruders with 8 dice, thanks to the GM-dice of doom. In any case a J has too many resources to be vulnerable to this, and you probably won't find any info. You might find something on the unprofessional ones, which are likely to fuck with you.

On the other hand, any J that doesn't only do business once WILL leave tracks, and actually, he needs to leave some tracks or else he'll never get a reputation, which is the only thing that will gain him access to the really good runner teams - because the best fixers won't work with new Js. If anything, it's the fixer's job to do a background check on the J, because the fixer's life and business is ALWAYS on the line. Actually much more so than the runners'.

QUOTE (kzt)
In reality, the whole "Johnson meet" trope is pretty silly considering that the whole reason for employing runners is to avoid any soft of connection, which the traditional SR "Johnson meet" completely undermines.

It's a crime thing. Runners are professional criminals, and when you have no legal system to enforce arrangements the minimum you have to do is be prepared to meet face to face. Because the inherent dilemma of shadowrunning is that it doesn't work with trust, but it also doesn't work without it. I would think at least some Js will demand all team members be present during the meet.

All that being said I entirely agree it's basically stupid to even do it.
Kolinho
QUOTE (svenftw @ Feb 22 2012, 10:17 PM) *
Lessons learned this way are lessons *actually* learned. I think it does the whole table a lot of good when you've run games in the past that make them think about their actions and the consequences afterward.

There's actually been a few times when I've been running a straight forward adventure that I felt the players caught on and started to play it loose and lazy. When that happens I'll add a twist on the fly that could have been avoided with some simple legwork and that gets everybody back into the game. Make them pay for being lazy and reward them for being diligent and you'll see the players get more engaged into the game as a whole. At least in my experience.


Excellent advice. Love it.
Neraph
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 27 2012, 08:33 PM) *
Narrow bursts don't add to the DV when determining armor penetration, but wide bursts can be helpful in negating some of a spirit's (usually high) dice pool for dodging. My point was, if you're going to introduce a spirit as an antagonist for a mundane group, make sure it is one that can be damaged by them. Unfortunately, the way hardened armor works, there is often a sharp demarcation between "shrugs off every attack" and "drops with the first hit".

I've heard of an interesting House Rule where, instead of ItNW being Force * 2 Hardened Armor, the damage from an attack is reduced by an amount equal to the Force of the spirit. I want to test it.
Daylen
QUOTE (kzt @ Feb 28 2012, 04:24 AM) *
Part of being a deniable asset is that said deniable asset needs to avoid knowing who they are really working for. So encouraging people to figure out who they are working for is bad. It not only makes you "the man who knew too much" for the Johnson, it makes you a source of info for the target you just hit.

That's why the idea that the targets won't come after the runners is silly. They may not really care that much about the runners, but the runners can often give away the guy who hired them and their fixer. And the target does dearly want to know that. Then they'll usually shoot the runners in the head and leave their bodies in a ditch somewhere on general principles.

So we typically didn't try to figure out who we were really working for. A mission was acceptable or not independent of whether it was for the little sisters of the poor or for aztechnology, so it really didn't matter from that pov. And it kept us from being a target to roll up the Johnson.

In reality, the whole "Johnson meet" trope is pretty silly considering that the whole reason for employing runners is to avoid any soft of connection, which the traditional SR "Johnson meet" completely undermines.

The problem with not finding out the dirt on your employer is then you don't have any dirt on them. It places you at their mercy where it comes to expendable, to cover tracks you might be iced. Its nice to know that might happen before it does. Your target will likely kill you whether you know something or not if they are going to kill you. If you know something however that is a bargaining chip and you can potentially sell it to them if they find you.

It goes back to an old saying that can be modified to fit well here:
If you're not digging for dirt on the Johnson, you're not trying.
If you get caught digging for dirt on the Johnson, you're not trying hard enough.
Irion
@Daylen
Kzt did something very mean, he applyed logic to the whole background. Thats alway nasty.
The problem is, if Shadowrunners can and do find out dirt about their employers, there is no reason to hire them.
You can't deny them. (Hard to deny something if the guy the captured had your meeting and the reasons for the run an his commlink)
And they probably will choose life over loyalty. Because they have NO TIES to you.

The point is: The finding out who the Johnson is and for whom he works actually undermines the whole idea of Shadowrunners.

(Yes, I know it is in a lot of novels. Well, this speaks volumes for their quality, doesn't it?)

Again: This sort of Runner/Johnson relationship (with finding stuff out about the Johnson) only works if this guy is doing it private. Meaning he is hirering to kidnap his daughter from his ex-wife.

I mean, whats the use of a fixer if Runners and Johnson meet face to face anyway.

@Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE
It's a crime thing. Runners are professional criminals, and when you have no legal system to enforce arrangements the minimum you have to do is be prepared to meet face to face. Because the inherent dilemma of shadowrunning is that it doesn't work with trust, but it also doesn't work without it. I would think at least some Js will demand all team members be present during the meet.

The point is, it is more than just contraproductive in this case. They are not "equals".
For example: If I am a mean mob boss in lets say arms trafficking and I make deals with one cartel which is in drugs and one other which is in human to widen my field of work, it does make sense to meet.
If one is caught we go down as one, probably. Because I do not guess that federal agents are too stupid to ask the questions like, where this "druglord" got his guns from.

So if one organisation goes down for good, it will take at least part of the others with him. So the meeting is to ensure that nobody gets too greedy and tries something stupid.
For example my associates in this example would not be pleased if I started to sell guns to known terrorists.

Johnson and Runner is something completly different. The first has MUCH to loose. The other might start over from one day to another.

What does this meeting ensure? Actually nothing. It only weakens the possition of the Johnson.
Kolinho
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 28 2012, 07:56 PM) *
I mean, whats the use of a fixer if Runners and Johnson meet face to face anyway.


To work as the middle-man, no?

Surely the fixer is a guy who knows lots of guys, but never knows what they are doing. Just whether or not they can be relied upon, i.e. still alive. The reason a Johnson would want to meet the Runners in person would be so that they control the flow of information, by foregoing Matrixed communication that can be tapped, and by controlling any local physical recording devices (cameras and whatnot).

At the end of the day, if the Johnson tells the fixer what's what, then that's another person who knows what's going on and as such another potential leak. If I was a Johnson, I'd also want to see the people I was employing to do the work face to face to know that they seem to task. On the same note, I will play my group's fixers as the 'I really don't wanna know...' types.

In short, by holding a real-world meet a Johnson has the most control over who knows what, and how much. That's how I see it anyway. I would see it as strengthening the Johnson's position.
Irion
@Kolinho
The point is, he does not get anything out of it. Actually he gets less security.
The guys he is meeting with might be the response team from another "player".

To give a disk to the fixer and let him give that disk to the runners is the most secure way. If the fixxer does not call you back, well he failed...

So no matter how comproomised you are, you may deny. (Unless they have been monitoring you ALL the time. But in this instance, you will be done either way..)
Kolinho
@Irion

Fair enough, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I know if it was me, i'd want to look the guy working for me in the eye (figuratively).

That's also before considering the cinematic aspect, which I think is important in terms of both drama (i.e. to give both player and Johnson an opportunity to present themselves and later haggle) and thematics (any extra opportunity a GM gets to paint a real-world locale should be whole-heartedly embraced imo).

But we're all different of course, we all want to run a world that seems at least potentially feasible and more importantly fun for our groups.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Kolinho @ Feb 28 2012, 09:37 PM) *
That's also before considering the cinematic aspect, which I think is important in terms of both drama (i.e. to give both player and Johnson an opportunity to present themselves and later haggle) and thematics (any extra opportunity a GM gets to paint a real-world locale should be whole-heartedly embraced imo).

But we're all different of course, we all want to run a world that seems at least potentially feasible and more importantly fun for our groups.

Good point. There is NO point in a game that gets so real that it loses the fun. The essential SR came from the 80s, where it just seemed TOTALLY COOL to do a meat meet in a shady bar. In reality, the fixer should be the only one who ever sees either side. His reputation and life is at stake if either side plays foul. (Yeah, WHY would anyone want to do this job again?)

So...

We have to just ignore so many of the inherent contradictions in the game - at least as long as they detract from our fun. The SR world works with certain premises which are mostly completely off. Even the existence of runners is basically stupid: In order to have so many deniable assets for hire, you need a lot of low-down rabble who are CRAVING for work, they need to be down in the dirt, hoping to make a quick buck on a shady operation. On the other hand, throughout the editions, runners got up to a mil in nuyen to get gear. So there is a disconnect here: The 1mil runner is a very ESTABLISHED figure, one who isn't in the least as expendable as the very nature of shadowruns makes it seem. So he is in fact a very valued commodity, who is far separate from the really expendable cheap meat for hire. In SR3 a runner was already an elite operative from the get go. SR4 somewhat killed this thought. A 400BP runner isn't even qualified to be an ex-military grunt, because just getting average stats eats up all your points. That might make for a better game, but the world just breaks down even more. A 750 karma runner on old costs, now that is a character on a comparable level with SR3, an elite operative. At this point the game works a little better, again, because either he has the chance to act on footing that is far more even with the bigger players, or at least there will be some value in keeping him alive and doing business (for one's own side, of course).

I think that other cyberpunk game (of which I have only skimmed some edition's core rule book) made things a bit more realistic: You could get money, but only by basically drowning yourself in debt and being someone's bitch. I think that could be a "fun" way to start an SR campaign, too.
Midas
QUOTE (Daylen @ Feb 28 2012, 07:39 PM) *
The problem with not finding out the dirt on your employer is then you don't have any dirt on them. It places you at their mercy where it comes to expendable, to cover tracks you might be iced. Its nice to know that might happen before it does. Your target will likely kill you whether you know something or not if they are going to kill you. If you know something however that is a bargaining chip and you can potentially sell it to them if they find you.

It goes back to an old saying that can be modified to fit well here:
If you're not digging for dirt on the Johnson, you're not trying.
If you get caught digging for dirt on the Johnson, you're not trying hard enough.

You are contradicting yourself - if the PCs don't have dirt on the Johnson, they are not a loose end that needs to be tied up. Why should the Johnson go to the unnecessary expense of using (and risking) professional SWAT level plus assets to ice a bunch of dangerous professional criminals who can only give a vague description of what he looks like in disguise and perhaps the type of car he uses (morphing licence plates, so no plate number, naturally)?

The way I play it, the fixer is the crucial link between Johnson and runners. The runners are professional enough to be a valued asset to the fixer; he has limited reliable runner assets at his disposal, so isn't going to sell them down the river if he can help it. The corp black ops Johnson is a valued customer to the fixer, and he wants to select the best team at the Johnson's budget to successfully complete the job. The fixer is adept at covering his tracks so as not to be a loose end to the Johnson himself, but has run a background check on said Johnson in case the fool does try and burn his valued runner assets on the sly.

When I do run a Johnson double-cross, the PCs first port of call is their fixer, who more likely than not is going to give up what he knows on the Johnson (although how much the fixer tells them and whether he gives the Johnson a heads-up or not depends on the runners track record vs the Johnson's annual budget for runs for the fixer). For the fixer such situations really are a damage-limitation exercise, he is going to figure that he will either lose a customer or an asset, but he may as well duck behind cover and let them deuce it out themselves; apart from not having to worry about dangerous sociopaths with a grudge against him, the fixer is protecting his reputation.

As with the OP's fixer telling his PCs he didn't know much about their Johnson, my PC's fixer is professional enough to tell the PCs if the Johnson is new, unknown or he has a feeling the Johnson might be untrustworthy, which is code for carte blanche for the PCs to do some digging. And as Brainpiercing said, PCs might independently decide to do a bit of digging if something about the Johnson or the gig seems fishy ...
Midas
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 28 2012, 08:19 PM) *
@Kolinho
The point is, he does not get anything out of it. Actually he gets less security.
The guys he is meeting with might be the response team from another "player".

To give a disk to the fixer and let him give that disk to the runners is the most secure way. If the fixxer does not call you back, well he failed...

So no matter how comproomised you are, you may deny. (Unless they have been monitoring you ALL the time. But in this instance, you will be done either way..)

I am with Kolinho on this; apart from the cinematic aspect of the runners meeting face-to-face with the Johnson, the guy is likely to want to eyeball them before they part with their cash, I know I certainly would. The human need for such face-to-face encounters to engender mutual trust has RL precedence from the business to the criminal world (or at least I believe it does in the latter case) ...
Daylen
QUOTE (Midas @ Feb 29 2012, 09:27 AM) *
You are contradicting yourself - if the PCs don't have dirt on the Johnson, they are not a loose end that needs to be tied up. Why should the Johnson go to the unnecessary expense of using (and risking) professional SWAT level plus assets to ice a bunch of dangerous professional criminals who can only give a vague description of what he looks like in disguise and perhaps the type of car he uses (morphing licence plates, so no plate number, naturally)?
...

No I'm not contradicting myself the PCs are still a loose end. Any evidence or possible link is a loose end, even the link to the fixer is a loose end because at some point there must be a connection to the one paying for SR services. Just because the PCs are too stupid to track those links themselves and figure out what is going on does not mean a skilled investigator can't or won't do it. Heck even the credsticks the runners got paid with is a potential loose end.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Feb 28 2012, 10:27 PM) *
I think that other cyberpunk game (of which I have only skimmed some edition's core rule book) made things a bit more realistic: You could get money, but only by basically drowning yourself in debt and being someone's bitch. I think that could be a "fun" way to start an SR campaign, too.


CP2020,'s starting money is directely related to th PC's profession and skill level, but usually is farily miserable : enough to buy a some kevlar-led clothes and a gun or two usually, maybe a little bite of cyberware if you're highly skilled (namely, usually from 1 to 5 K Eurodollars). Selling out to a corp brought 20K in cyberware, and a very high probability that the corporation has taken some precautions to secure it's investment (ranging blackmail, tracers and monitoring gear - an image link and a radio can do wonders), getting you addicted to something the corporation is the only provider, up to the cortical bomb or havign teh PC's family as hostages...)
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Feb 29 2012, 10:12 PM) *
CP2020,'s starting money is directely related to th PC's profession and skill level, but usually is farily miserable : enough to buy a some kevlar-led clothes and a gun or two usually, maybe a little bite of cyberware if you're highly skilled (namely, usually from 1 to 5 K Eurodollars). Selling out to a corp brought 20K in cyberware, and a very high probability that the corporation has taken some precautions to secure it's investment (ranging blackmail, tracers and monitoring gear - an image link and a radio can do wonders), getting you addicted to something the corporation is the only provider, up to the cortical bomb or havign teh PC's family as hostages...)

Well, maybe you don't have to go quite that far...

I'm in the process of thinking up some street-level house rules where you basically get only very little money, too, and have to get a debt from a loan shark for anything else. (Basically an In Dept quality of undefined extent, but no karma points gained and none needed to repay the debt. Just stiff interest.) And probably you have to buy your karma to learn magical things with that money, too, but setting the previous limit here is a fine line to draw.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Feb 27 2012, 04:27 PM) *
It's always been like this. Modified DV is only base DV + net hits + ammo bonus. Burst bonus or FA bonus doesn't count. It's specified either in the burst fire description, or in the basic armour description that explains conversion to stun damage.

Um, I can't find anything like that in my rulebook. The descriptions for Full-Auto's various options make no mention of it, and refer to various "DV Modifiers", which would imply that they would count towards the "modified DV". You are correct about Burst-Fire mode, though, which explicitly states that Narrow Bursts increase the DV by +2, but it doesn't count when comparing the DV to the armor rating. But none of the Full-Auto options say that, and the descriptions for the Immunity and Hardened Armor Critter Powers don't mention it either.


Anyway, I've been meaning to return to this thread sooner to update everyone on the game. We had our first session after the "debacle" last night. It was a lot more "talky" than I had planned, but I think it went well and one of the players (who, oddly enough, was fairly quiet/unengaged) texted me after the game to say how awesome the roleplaying was. I've never been texted about the quality of one of my games before, and I've been GMing since college.


So anyway, I went with my previous plan of introducing the players to a Knight-Errant Detective/Mage who is hunting the child-eating Free Spirit. I chose not to have them arrested/humiliated first, because I hate that kind of contrivance as a player, so I don't want to use it as a GM. I'm fine with capture as an alternative to killing in a combat where the PCs have lost and it makes sense not to kill them, but not here. I'll freely admit that my style may seem a bit "soft" to some people here, but ultimately I find that I feel better about my games overall when I'm not fighting my players. I want to challenge them, hurt them, scare them, but overall I want them to have a good time.


Back to the matter at hand, I should probably introduce the cast before I explain what went down:

  1. "Machine-Gun" Maccabee, an Ork with some really expensive cyberlegs, complete with foot anchors, and some martial arts expertise (that weird gladiator one from Aztlan). As the name implies, he has a machinegun.
  2. Mr. Nobody, an Ork "vat job" with mostly bioware. A former bodyguard from L.A. whose last client perished during one of his off-shifts, he came to Seattle for a fresh start. He is kind of a generalist, and the closest thing they have to a face. Also does some sniping.
  3. Smith, a Dwarf rigger/outdoorsman.
  4. They were joined mid-way through this game by a player who had left the group due to scheduling problems; he came with his old rigger, X, but will likely be playing a different character in the future, as they already have a guy with a van. X's player is new to Shadowrun.


So Maccabee's hacker contact calls to warn him that someone has been asking about him on the down-low, and spreading around a photograph of Maccabee hanging out of a van firing a machinegun (it's from the dashcan of one of the cop cars). The guy isn't being subtle, and has left a contact number for anyone with info on the guy in the picture to call. Maccabee is intrigued, but has security concerns; I explain that he would probably think a disposable commlink would be a good first step (he'd since hung up from the call with the hacker, so she couldn't advise him further, and he's trying to keep her out of trouble).

So, he's got a custom lifestyle that I helped him put together: it's basically a flophouse run by a family of orks, some of whom sell stuff and/or operate a small bar on the ground floor. He asks one of them about getting his hands on a disposable commlink, but they were fresh out. They offer to grab one for him (for a price), but he decides to hoof it to the Crime Mall (he's in Puyallup). On the way over, he's jumped by four guys who recognize him from the photo that is floating around and decide to collect on what they assume is a bounty. He surprised me by not immediately spocking them; instead he used his foot anchors to enhance his vertical leap and jump up to a second-story window nearby (he got up about 4 meters; this seemed reasonable for getting his hand on a window ledge to pull himself up). They fired on him from below, but he took a full dodge and easily weathered the volley.

Around this time, X's player showed up. Eager to throw him into the game quickly, and remembering that X also lived in Puyallup, I had him drive by around this time. X actually has never met Maccabee, but he was in a runner group with Mr. Nobody, and was eager to link up with him again. He calls Nobody and explains this crazy thing he just saw (armored ork leaping up into a second-story window, while under fire) and Nobody puts two and two together, calls Maccabee to confirm, and asks X to provide a getaway.

Thus, the group was reunited. They eventually get their commlink and call the number, but they have Smith do the calling. This is an annoying thing they do: Smith's player is often rather quiet during the game, so I appreciate them getting him involved, but trying to roleplay a conversation with him while two other people tell him what to say (in their defense, he's awfully indecisive without advice) is super annoying. Anyway, the Detective asks them to meet him at a bar downtown that I make clear to them (two of them live in Downtown, and would likely know either from experience or looking on a map) that the bar is possibly a cop bar. They smell a trap, but are also intrigued, so they go, but decide to disguise Mr. Nobody and send him into the bar with X to broker communication remotely with Maccabee, who will be waiting in the van with Smith.

The detective was not having any of this nonsense. I didn't bother having him pierce the disguise, but he knows exactly who he's looking for, and has had enough of opportunists claiming to "know a guy". He demands to see Maccabee in person, even as Nobody is relaying their conversation to Maccabee remotely. The detective points out that wireless communication is fairly easy to intercept ("are you even a hacker, son? do you even know one? anyone in this room could have been listening this whole time..."). In fact, the detective had a hacker doing exactly that (for tracing purposes) the entire time they were in the bar; as they have no hacker backing them up, I didn't bother having them roll anything to notice.

Maccabee comes in, and tries to send X back to the van, but X sticks around and ends up learning exactly what kind of trouble these guys are in, and what they helped someone do. I played the detective cool, not rising to any of the jibes he was getting from Maccabee, who was still full of swagger and who did not appreciate what he saw as blackmail. The detective explains that he has Maccabee and his accomplices dead to rights, with plenty of photos and a "traitor" willing to tie them directly to the kidnapping. He then explains that he couldn't care less about arresting them now, because they're the closest he's ever gotten to the monster that is eating these children. He wants the monster so badly that he'd gladly make a deal with "garbage" like them to do it. He has some pleasantly intense staredowns with Maccabee, gives the runners a cheap commlink to stay in contact, and tells them that he'll be in touch when he gets his next lead; the "thing" will likely be inactive until the next New Moon grows closer.

He also tells them to feel free to skip town if they want; he has no doubt of his ability to track them if necessary (I suppose enough disguise could work, but knowing them they'd reach out to a contact sooner or later and he'd have them then; alternatively, I don't think it'd be hard at all for a team with no magic support to be tracked by magic detective).


Shortly after, Smith's smuggler contact calls him with a follow-up job from the "milk run" they did for him in exchange for an escape route during their disastrous kidnapping job. This job is longer, and doesn't pay in advance; they'll be paid for each delivery as it happens, and they'll be driving long-distance with as-yet unidentified contraband (they know it's not a person, isn't toxic to them, but is "something they shouldn't let near fire, and shouldn't let the cops see"). Four stops. The road trip begins next session.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 27 2012, 06:33 PM) *
Narrow bursts don't add to the DV when determining armor penetration, but wide bursts can be helpful in negating some of a spirit's (usually high) dice pool for dodging. My point was, if you're going to introduce a spirit as an antagonist for a mundane group, make sure it is one that can be damaged by them. Unfortunately, the way hardened armor works, there is often a sharp demarcation between "shrugs off every attack" and "drops with the first hit".

Full-Auto bursts should work, and combined with the right ammo I've seen street sams do semi-decent damage to Spirits before. Not *great*, mind you....it's a pain in the ass, but it's a shortcut to a tough fight if you have players with optimized builds.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 1 2012, 06:55 AM) *
Um, I can't find anything like that in my rulebook. The descriptions for Full-Auto's various options make no mention of it, and refer to various "DV Modifiers", which would imply that they would count towards the "modified DV". You are correct about Burst-Fire mode, though, which explicitly states that Narrow Bursts increase the DV by +2, but it doesn't count when comparing the DV to the armor rating. But none of the Full-Auto options say that, and the descriptions for the Immunity and Hardened Armor Critter Powers don't mention it either.


Alright, let me put it this way: I'm the first guy who'll like his bit of literal-stupid intretation of the rules. But, seriously, it's the same thing. Narrow burst, whether via burst fire or full-auto, do the same thing. Put more bullets on target. Why should a FA short burst do anything differently than a burst fire short burst? YES, they should have written that another way, but the book is FULL of oversights like that. There are things which are still iffy - called shots with burst vs called shots with FA, for instance. Or even better, called shots with wide bursts. Is that possible?
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