Wow. So that's how they spent 1,000 attaining readily-available information.

Your players are masters of the overkill, aren't they?

In some ways yes, in some ways no. They really need to think about emissions control and tactical communications.

I'll let the topic go back now.

You should totally make a "CanRay's Story Thread" thread to share your stories in. Because they're hilarious.

They really threw a grand at a contact to get information they could have obtained with a threshold 1 or 2 Browse test? Bwaha!

Payout for a run should be based on karma per run. If you give more karma you pretty much have to give more money. If you give lots of karma and little money, the awakened characters will become gods while the rigger, hacker, and street samurai all suck. The opposite is also true, but it's kind of hard to reach.

The way I run it, at least, is that, assuming the players are playing professional runners, that for the most part they won't go across the street for less than 5k each. Runners are skilled professionals who as a business practice don't ask questions, and don't give up their employers. A good team won't go next door without doing some research and legwork and being prepared for life or death combat. Anything less than 5k should be considered to be hooding.

The basic idea about this is that any run had the potential to become dangerous and draw heat, and if the run doesn't cover at least a month of laying low(at mid lifestyle, even though they usually live at low, they usually would like to live mid), it's not worth it. And if a run doesn't have such risks, Johnson is stupid for hiring a runner team when he could pay any gangbanger on the street much less.

Honestly, I won't give out less than 10k for runs where the team is likely to get into any real danger, and I try to in the long run reach around 2-2.5k nuyen per karma I award(this usually comes from the occasional big break).

I also except my runners to spend money on their runs, fake I.D.s, disguises, ammo, bribes, information, these are all things runners need to be able to afford.

I like to lowball my runners. My Johnsons offer starts at around 75% of what they expect to pay and the runners ususally negotiate up to what is budgeted. At least that is how it worked until my team's face started to get delusions of grandeur. He actually said ..."We don't get out of bed for less than 20,000 nuyen!" Sooner or later a Johnson will walk and the rest of the team will scrag him. Oh well, live and learn.

I figure that lowballing is standard. Even someone without any social skills at 1 or greater knows and is expecting a haggle.

So then, if Johnson opens at 50%, the Runners automatically counter with 100%, as expected. Johnson counters with 65-75%, and the runners think they're getting near his budget cap and start haggling up for 5-15%, which the Johnson 'reluctantly' accepts, making as if he's straining his budget or even going over it, when in fact he's getting away with paying them 70-90%.

The Runners get to feel like they put the screws to him, Johnson gets to save some and everybody feels satisfied. Of course, if the team is manifestly experienced and suited to the task at hand, Mr. Johnson might actually go over-budget, but if he seems too reasonable, or, really, if his name starts with "Mr." and ends with "Johnson," confirm that he deposited the whole amount into escrow before you say "we'll do it." It may not be the 2050s anymore (unless it is, of course ) but that doesn't mean that Mr. Johnson won't decide it's cheaper to bring a corp black-ops team to the meet than the rest of your pay if you haggled him up and then didn't make sure the money was committed regardless.

I'd agree that there are negotiations about wages in most every job. I generally write down what Johnson's opening offer is, and the highest he will go, which is typically around three net successes on an opposed Charisma+Negotiation test. I'll give the players bonuses(or penalties) to the roles is they can come up with good arguments why they should be paid more, and I'll give them something else for more net-hits (a larger percent up front, a good lead, a discount on some equipment for the run, a contacts phone number, ect)

Thanks for all the tips and insight folks. I'm learning a lot here.

Agreed, great thread.

I tend to pay a little high (a little over 10,000/person on a major job, including expense accounts) but I also tend to emphasize the more Hollywood parts of Shadowrun, the glitz and glamour and AR advertising that covers all the crap that makes up the majority of the setting, and how the runners have to dance the thin line between action heroes and assassins. I think that pay, much like houserules and allowable character concepts/builds, really depends on what kind of Sixth World a GM is trying to cultivate, as Shadowrun, due to its rules-heavy nature, relies more than many other games on GM characterization. My own GM, who runs a very dirty, gritty, black-hat game, pays comparatively low, even for a full AA extraction.

For the pay to be worth it to the client, there are some variables to keep in mind:

X = Expected cost to the client of hiring runners. Includes social costs of dealing with lowlifes like the runners and whoever steered the client towards the runners, and of keeping those interactions secret. If the client is also a lowlife or has no significant social standing, these intangible costs can be low or nonexistent. Includes the go-between's (Johnson's) cut, if any.

Y = Expected difference in profit to the client if the run goes down well; 'expected' meaning multiplied by the probability of this happening. 'Difference' meaning compared to using more conventional resources or just letting the cards fall as they may and hoping. 'Profit' can mean different things to different clients; not all that glimmers is gold, but ask for cash anyway.

Z = Expected losses to the client if the run goes poorly. Usually a very small value, since that's the whole point of using deniable independent assets in the first place. Clients hate paying in advance because it raises Z.

X must be less than (Y-Z) or you're wasting your time. In fact, it's usually much, much less, justifying the prevalence of these practices. Sometimes X and Z are low enough that you can just pay multiple teams to try. Sometimes it's because Y is incredibly high, but don't let the runners know or they will want more X.

These values are relative; a desperate, vengeful man might pay everything he's got to see his nemesis dead, even if it nets him not a cent. Sometimes 'everything he's got' is not much. Sometimes the client will try to snow you on the value of X; they might pretend to have shallower pockets than they do, to discourage haggling. They might misrepresent Y for the same reason. They will do everything they can to minimize Z, often including burning you if you screw up. They will do a lot to minimize X, sometimes including burning you if you don't screw up. Sometimes the client's appraisal of X, Y, and Z is just plain wrong; this can be good or bad for you, but usually bad.


For the pay to be worth it to runners, there are some other variables:

A = Expected costs to the runners for attempting the run. This can be ammunition, hospital bills, throwaway weapons or vehicles, disguises, subcontractors, bribes, bus fare, fake IDs, or payouts to next of kin (if you're the generous type). Remember to include living expenses for the work period. This rarely covers social expenses; you'll want to charge a lot more if you have to hold your nose to do it, but then the client is just going to go to the next guy, who doesn't mind the smell. Smart runners keep this number high as insurance. Dumb runners keep this number high because they think they can get away with it.

B = Expected difference in profit over screwing the client, or sticking to less strenuous lines of work. This depends a lot on the local economy, your ability to hold down a legal job, and whether the client is willing and able to murder you for turning on them. It also depends on whether you expect the client to screw you anyway.

C = Expected odds of living to spend any of B.

If A is greater than (B*C), you don't want to do it. Sometimes you'll have to try anyway, because rent is late and you figure you can keep A low (you can't). Sometimes it's because the client is a friend of yours, or you have a personal stake in the outcome of the run. Sometimes it's because the client has you dead to rights. Ideally, C and (B-A) are high enough that you don't starve to death before the next job comes your way. If you're good, and if you're lucky, you'll have enough left over to qualify for runs with higher A and B... or, at least, more favorable C.

Runners are frequently poor at estimating A and C (but not for long). A tends to inflate as the run goes on, and C tends to plummet rapidly when you least expect it. Managing A and C is key to being a successful (and living) runner.


*****

The Johnson asks you to boost a truckload of new chips off a loading dock and burn them. This is to create an artificial scarcity of those chips, but he doesn't tell you that. The Johnson's cut aside, the client can expect a promotion and a pay raise for raising the media profile of his department's new product, and a little on the side for manipulating the stock prices of his own company and the competition's. It's hard to put a number on this, but the client decides a hundred grand sounds about right, and is willing to shell out as much as half of that to make sure it all happens. The client is an ambitious mid-level executive acting in secret and on his own, so he can't rightly call on the full resources of his corporate sponsor.

The Johnson waffled a bit on how to best dispense of his operating budget. He wants to pay enough that the runners won't just jack the truck for themselves and sell the chips on the black market, which would undermine the goal. There's half a million in chips on that truck, and even at bootleg prices you could clear a tenth of that no problem. He can just barely match that with his 50k budget. He might go ahead and pay the runners on confirmation, or he might pay them half of that, pay a local gang 5k to be on retainer in case he needs to burn the runners, and pocket 20k. Not bad for a single night's work.

Bravo Braincraft,

While some of the variables are a tad hard to estimate this is an interesting, entertaining and seemingly accurate system. A fun read all around.

I second Relecs emotion, nicely articluated Braincraft, although I would add the following caveats.

Particularly for corp-based McGuffins, you have to take into consideration all the costs the corp will face in bringing said McGuffin to market. To say projected profits of said McGuffin should be 5 million annually, you have to remember the corp has significant R&D, marketing, sales and personnel costs to successfully sell/improve the product on an ongoing basis, so Y should not be anywhere near 5 mill, probably nearer 10% of that or less.

Secondly, remember that there is a "market price" for runs based on the among other things the level of security of the target, the perceived abilities of the runner assets, and tightness of the deadline. If I were setting up a web-based business IRL, I would pay the going rate for website design rather than some arbitary figure based on projections on how much money the business would net me in the future.

Great posts Braincraft and Midas.

Valuable help for anyone looking for a hint in this direction.

One of the most fantastic things about the game is the ability to make every hero an anti-hero, and every villain a human being (figuratively speaking). A Johnson isn't there to give the runners a job, he's there to get whatever he needs done, done. By the same token, a weapons dealer isn't there to provide weapons to runners, but to make himself a profit to be able to pay for his lifestyle, UB season tickets and addiction to hookers.

Always keeping in mind that every character fills a shade of grey -and usually quite a dark one- rather than an absolute is what, imo, makes Shadowrun the best tabletop RPG out there.

Remember, though, that player characters are devious and clever bastards, and when it comes to their personal finances they all turn instantly into Gordon Gekko, just like they all become Sun Tsu when it comes to combat.

If you're asking the runners to torch 610,000 worth of goods - a big rig w/trailer and its cargo - which they can, at standard 30% fence rates, sell for 183,000 - and trying to pay them 50,000 , sooner or later one of them is going to run the numbers and determine that they just fucked themselves out of 133,000 . Even if the cargo can only be moved for 10% of its value instead of 30%, that's still a total of 83,000 , leaving them still out 33,000 .

Basically, sooner or later they're going to stop turning up for Johnson's meets because they're in business for themselves and planning their own runs, not only cutting out the middle man but the top man as well.

So, the Johnson needs to start offering them something that's more tempting - or at least as tempting - as the straight-up nuyen (or at least, offering them the straight-up nuyen.) Contacts, for instance, such as with the Johnson himself. Say that Mr. Johnson is grateful that you've completed your assignment efficiently and without screwing him. If you later wind up in the disfavor of another corp or an organized gang of thugs with a lot of resources, perhaps you'll be able to lay low on extraterritorial property at some point in the future, posing as a very heavily-augmented and supremely-overqualified janitorial night crew in a sub-sub-basement of something somewhere. Or the name of an arms merchant who'll give you a discount if you drop Mr. Johnson's name, or perhaps some of his company's finest products (or more likely, some of a rival company's finest products, just to muddy the waters,) installed on the company's dime (if it's augmentations; could be telesma or something.)


(Although most players probably won't trust a corp to install cyber, for good reason. So it would be more like they'd get the augs as part of their pay and spend some nuyen with a trusted black clinic to check it over for bombs/killswitches/what-have-you before installing it.)