@The Jake
Thats why I would prefere for multible and realistic form to have NO "crunchbased" effects.
You look like it, but you are not transformed. (This actually solves nearly all of the problems, leaving only the question on how some things done to or by the spirit would "look")

(As a matter of fact, reach ain't a problem, because free spirits can't use involking on theirselfs and I do not think a magician binding the free spirit could do it. (But granted, it would be more than just bad. But not just considering the size. You would get an (I would rule it as an augmentation) bonus to all your attributes and a great power... This would be kind of a bad thing)

But yes, from an RAW perspective...

Actually you can Invoke an ally. Think it's even in the FAQ going from memory.
But yeah it has been discussed. Even Frank Trollman said so.

I agree with your solution though. Just provide a min/max size of what constitutes a 'Realistic Form' and call it a day.

- J.

Well, I would keep it simple.

Whatever form the player chooses the spirit to have then it would be able to perform the function.

You want the spirit to be a T-Bird, no problem, a Toaster, no problem. A 30 foot Mech bristling with weapons...no, not a 'realistic form'.

It would be able to perform the BASE function without taking damage. A toaster wouldnt fry itself when inserted into a power socket for example.

BUT...

Any kind of Damage, Effect, Magical force etc would go against the spirits base attribute.

So your F4 Zeppelin that would normally cost you 800000Y + modifications could be brought down by a simple stunbolt, Tazer or powerful firearm - not to mention an irritated troll passenger who decides to punch the inside of the hull.

It will have lift capability, speed, acceleration and other values. Its just that it dies far more easily.

So, in short:
- Retains BASE ability of chosen form
- Vehicular form cannot accept Vehicle Modifications
- Takes damage with Spirit Attributes
- Cannot be rigged (its still a spirit)

All in all its a fairly smooth trade off. You have an instant on-call vehicle that unfortunately will flatten itself against a ward or when it drives over a zapper strip (leaving you flying a bit further) but will function as a rather convincing vehicle.

Just make sure you dont drive over places with high background count...

This brings up another point.

In my post above i refrain from allowing 'unrealistic' forms like 30 foot mechs. But can one actually LIMIT a magician like that? I think I'd have to rethink such a limitation.

A Sci-Fi nut of a magician might want a 'powersuit' like the one from the old Sci-Fi series Captain power. Basically he just shouts 'POWER ON' and a rocket pack flight suit materializes on his body - essentially the spirit manifests AROUND the magician, sealing him into itself as it has the realistic form of a flying suit.

Would it be far fetched or could the magican just say it has the 'realistic form' of the Lockheed Sparrow.

As a GM, i would just say NO if my player wants his Ally Spirit to function like anythin ridiculus (like a mecha). If he insists that it is in the rules, i allow it and immediatly drop a thor shot or a few doses of ringu on his character - these things are also in the rules.

You could have a damn versatile spirit though if it had multiple forms.

1. Airplane
2. Transforms in the air and lands (with passengers) as a boat
3. Changes to submarine and dives
4. Swallowed by kraken...

Now take a free spirit with muteable form, realistic form and aura masking - no need to buy additional forms, you can now be everything ^^

This is pretty much contingent on GM approval. AFAIK there are no rules how the change between forms occurs. It could also be necessary for the spirit to dematerialize and materialize again in another form.

Unfortunately a free spirit is a problem - they are not an ally spirit and can decide to kill you if they dont like you anymore.

I prefer ally spirits. besides, after 10 forms or so you dont really NEED anymore.

Just play a PC free spirit

If the choice is between 'merely appears to be X, no functionality' and 'fully function, but fragile, X', the latter seems extremely problematic. Spirits can be pretty tough on their own, so I don't see that as a great limitation, but the real problem is still unlimited functionality for free. Vehicles, weapons, perfect disguises, (and what about unstoppably *small* forms?)—I just don't see how that could be okay.

Ok, my take is actually something like that:

You get form (and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say "within reason", generally such things should be house-ruled somehow).
You get basic function. You do NOT get fuel. You do NOT get the energy supply. You do NOT get ammunition.
Stats don't change. If the spirit has 6 body, the resulting item will have 6 body. Things like speed may change, but I'm inclined to say only within limits.

So changing into a jet aircraft will not give you mach speed. Also, you do not get the jet-like effect, nor could you emulate a rocket motor. You can emulate moving parts, so cars are fine, or bikes. But a jet turbine without burning fuel will not get the aircraft very far, because the turning the turbine won't provide that much thrust - I may be wrong. Turboprop aircraft might work, or helicopters. But the spirit as a helo won't be able to lift more than it could ordinarily lift.

There is also another issue:

Materialization gives you one form. Mutable form gives you several materialized forms.
But realistic form gives you any number of realistic forms, this doesn't seem to be limited, and mutable form only affects the ability to make disguises.

Well, in that case we use the following rule: Use the lowest of resistance attributes when applicable (which is a rule i just pulled out of my ass but it works since players should not gain an advantage for free).

Ok, so you are a BOD 0 drone, allright, you have BOD 0 - Against normal weapons double they have immunity based on lowest attribute.

This way they can never be powerful enough to rival say a T-bird as their starting force is usually at a max of 6 armor 12, nor can they be a BOD 6 spider drone as they are limited by the very realistic form they try to mimic.

They would still use their regular force against magic though.

Weapons would not function as they would mimic the function of a vehicles BASIC form, i e movement. If they would take the form of a GUN, Cannon or missile they would be an unloaded weapon (otherwise they would shoot pieces of themselves) or in the case of a missile they would make a damage equal to Force.

Materialization gives you one form, that is clearly not from this world.
Realistic Form gives you one additional realistic form.

Materialization + Mutable Form gives you unlimited forms that are clearly not from this world.

Materialization + Mutable Form + Realistic Form gives you unlimited realistic forms.

Interestingly enough this is never specified with the power itself, and the other addendums aren't 100% definite on this. ("usually"...)

There is no mention of only one form anywhere in the description of the power. It says " can appear using normal materialization or using Realistic Form", quoted from memory. Not "THE realistic form". Not "Can take ONE form that seems mundane and with function."
SM-Errata doesn't add anything to this that I'm aware of, unless I have an old errata. (v. 1.4.1)


This much is clearly specified.

Well, the way I see it the only added advantage is being able to impersonate people by adding force to disguise tests.

A free spirit might have two or three or more realistic forms of its own, which do not impersonate anyone, without having mutable form.

Suffice to say, these rules are a mess .

@Brainpiercing7.62mm

Unfortunatly it also adds functionality. If you rule this functionallity is able to change the "stats" of the spirit, this is when the shit starts flying.
Now you got yourself everything for just 1 Powerpoint.

The second you rule, that the "stats" of the spirit still apply and limit the size of the form the problems disappear. All of them.

Pretty much. I still have a tiny problem with a spirit who can become a laser rifle or a car, but that *is* something I'm relatively okay leaving for the GM ( TJ).

I never liked that ally spirit. Odd that the guy who wrote the magic rules didn't come up with rules to support his Mary Sue.

@Bigity
It has. If you got the karma to buy one, the ally spirit is the ultimate I WIN button.
One force 8 ally spirit and (if jake is right) you may just add a layer of invoking.

Well I mean more rules than we've been given in regards to the realistic form business. I mean, if you want your fiction character's ally spirit to be a motorcycle, that's cool if it's your deal, but at least think it through. Things like speed, fuel or lack of, etc etc. Do we just go on manifested spirit speeds? Or does it imitate the vehicle? Another paragraph of rules there might have cleared it all up.



I liked the ally spirit in Burning Bright. Everywhere else they didn't mesh with what I had always pictured or done in my games. But I'm a heavily-biased shaman kind of guy. I liked talking or asking spirits, not summoning them up like mana batteries like those dirty hermetics

What stops you from doing that in SR4A?

A cheap way to get Aura Masking on your ally is to just get an Ally which uses Inhabitation and get a Flesh Form or Hybrid Merge. Not easy when you have a Force 8 ally but it is possible.

I'm thinking of attempting this in my existing game.

- J.

Well, there must be some reason the damn things cost 250 points off the top! I've played a couple of free spirits, and each has had the triple combo: Aura Masking, Realistic Form and Mutable Form. I've found this to be the greatest use to the party, and the most fun out of all the Skills and Powers.

And one GM got around his concerns similar to yours by adapting the Shapechange limitation in BOD.

Yeah, uh, I didn't say anything of the sort. I said the stats of the spirit should never change, bar maybe a movement speed. You're still using materialization, you get all the spirits materialized physical stats, and ItNW as usually. Sometimes it doesn't make sense: A toaster with 8 or 9 Agi, for instance. I agree that it makes sense to limit forms via an applicable attribute, usually Body.

My point was that Realistic Form doesn't need Mutable Form to create multiple realistic forms. The only reason to assume it does is that the Mutable Form power exists at all. While that's just the sort of shoddy editing I would expect for Shadowrun, I'll maintain my opinion until disproven. Even the example seems to suggest multiple forms are possible: Why would any spirit take the form of a toaster, if it were the only form it could take? Mutable form as is only helps with disguises.

The way I see it, a free spirit can take on any form it wants, chosen from the (limited) list of forms it has available. If the spirit has Realistic Form, any of these forms can appear to be realistic, and not clearly mana-based. However, if the spirit has Mutable Form, it can appear as anything it wants when it Materializes.

Actually, without either Realistic Form or Mutable Form, the free spirit has one Materialized form. (Ally spirits may have more.) Realistic Form adds one more which cannot by physical senses be determined to be anything but what it purports to be (Street Magic p. 102).

Mutable form allows any number of different forms upon Materialization, but by itself does not make any of these forms appear... realistic... to physical senses. For that it needs Realistic Form as well (SM p. 109), though the one game-mechanics-specific example that is given is for impersonating someone. One could argue from the text therefore, that Realistic Form and Mutable Form only make multiple forms that are believable to physical senses if and only if they are combined to impersonate people.

That would be kind of silly, though, and would lead a clever player to say, "OK, I will make a detailed study of hundreds of people, so I can copy them all. Oh... and dogs, too. I like to Materialize as dogs. Maybe a fish. Yeah. A fish. On the run tonight, I will be disguised as the guppy I bought at the store today. I watched it all afternoon."

Neither of these makes any difference to the aura of the spirit, which can only be disguised by the use of the Masking and Extended Masking metamagics, the Aura Masking spirit power, or spells like False Impression or Manascape.

The three together are a whole helluva lot of fun to play.

Wouldn't that kind of thing be best suited as a Knowledge skill?

While I agree that free spirit impersonators are really fun, I would also like to point out that high-force spirits are pretty much geniuses that also roll a shitton of dice on memory tests. When all your mental stats are 7 or higher, you tend to be pretty good about that kind of thing.

Where did you get that? a Spirit in realistic form gets the normal functionality - nothing more nothing less. so a toaster might have AGI and REA 8 or 9 but what does that help a toaster? The best it could do would be to eject toast very agilely.

If you use Attribute limits, what about items that do not have such a stat like weapons, clothing etc.?

Why not use the same rules as for the Shapeshange spell?

Force X2 = Max BOD of chosen vehicle form
Force /2 = Lowest allowable Minimum BOD of chosen vehicle form.

A F6 spirit would then be limited by BOD of chosen form of minimum 3 or maximum 12.

This would also limit the abuse of getting a yourself a supertanker that is a spirit just to haul shit around.

@Brainpiercing7.62mm
So we would agree?
One simple test: A spirit (all attributes 5) changes into an F-15, could he fly?
I would rule it out, because his strength would not allow him to create the amount of engine power an F-15 needs to fly.
Same thing with the speed and enginepower of trucks.
An he would not get any kind of resistance in my book. So if the form asks for resisting damage to perform its "basic" tasks, the spirit should have an immunity against normal weapon to cover it. If it would be too low, he would take damage.

So a low force spirit transforming into a punching ball would have a bad day.

Damage Code? Armor Rating?

MAX Armor: FX2
MIN Armor: F/2
MAX Damage: FX2
MIN Damage: F/2

The spirit would still only perform the function of the weapon. It would need additional ammunition. Even if it was a laser weapon it would need power packs to function and somone to aim them.

Still, Trekkie magician with his trusty Phaser spirit.

Same goes with armor, yea, it might be good, not overpowered and would be following the rules for encumbrance. You would get a spiffy looking armor.

Nope, attributes would be that of the vehicle - the only limit would be that the spirit is at least half the force of the vehicles body. IF the spirit has enough FX2 to become the vehicles BOD attribute then it can perform the function of the vehicle. In regard to damage to the vehicle/spirit we would use Force as per normal spirit rules.

Eh, yes, since a punching ball pehaps have BOD 1 the spirit could be max Force 2 (F/2= Min Bod)

EDIT: Why do I respond to a post aimed towards someone else?

@The Jopp
I somehow do not like it. So many cases, and every case has to be look at differently. I admit I love streamlining stuff. So one sentance to "rule them all".

Good question from the OP. My 2 new yen's worth:

1) Limit to BOD of F+/-2 (as per Shapechange), or just maybe max BOD Fx2, min BOD F/2 (I would have to think about that).
2) Movement as per Spirit's Movement rate, unless said fuel available for Realistic Form.
3) Ditto for guns'n'lasers: requirement of a powerpack/ammo to function.
4) No vehicle armour or sensor functionality: if ITNW is breached, spirit takes damage.

My problem is, why should you ever consider taking elemental attack if you can just transform your arm in a lasercannon?

I cannot seem to find where you take the ONE form from.



This is only debatable insofar as the spirit-Truck or spirit jet aircraft might not even have the mass of the real one. But if it did, then it most certainly should not be able to move, at least not like the real one. A truck might drive at 5mph or an aircraft taxi. I believe a roto-drone or a small turboprop plane are definitely possible, given enough force, and it would look like the real thing and make engine noise, etc, even without having a real engine, or burning any fuel.
I believe that any basic function would not cause it damage. But if you were to actually put fuel in your spirit F15 and try to fly it then that exceeds the possibilities of realistic form, or at least for low force spirits.
Although, this is a very rules loose interpretation, actually, because from strict RAW I would have to say that any vehicle actually needs fuel or electric power to move, because the toaster example clearly specifies that you need to plug it in to make it toast stuff. So basically, the realistic form creates REAL electrical wiring, really functional components, etc. A metahuman form spirit may even need to eat and breathe. But if that were really the case, then why is matrix integration not possible? Are nano-structures like computer chips not recreated? Maybe spirits can only comprehend non-semi-conductor involving technology. But even with that interpretation a jet engine should then be capable of burning jet fuel without taking damage. I just don't think that should be possible.

It would be nice to have some more guidelines in the book. But IMHO this is really a McGuffin power to enable GMs to put iffy spirits into their plots. The best current interpretation was made by the guy who said the spirit takes on the IDEA of an object. Which includes function only insofar as to support itself. When you put fuel into a spirit car - which you can, because there is obviously space - then it shouldn't actually fulfill a use. The question is whether the spirit burns the fuel, so that you can put new fuel in it?
IMHO maybe this should require a disguise roll. You are going beyond just becoming the idea of a car, you are trying to impersonate a car. So for example, if you wish to replace the car of a guy you are trying to extract with a spirit form, then for the chauffeur/driver not to notice anything you have to make a disguise roll (and probably need mutable form). Obviously, though, matrix integration will be the telling factor, again, even before any of that.
At that point, however, a mutable form spirit may even be capable of becoming car AND driver (as inseperable objects) - with a disguise roll.



Well, I disagree with you, anyway. For instance, what happens when a spirit takes metahuman form? What stats does it get? This isn't D&D, where function follows form. The stats of the spirit should never change. If anything, because there is no mention of stats whatsoever in the books.

The punching ball spirit has a problem, because it has a stun track, unlike a real punching ball. But what happens to punching balls that are hammered on with P-damage dealing unarmed attacks? How do those people train?

@Brainpiercing7.62mm
So it seems we agree.

I would even go one step ahead and say, it only gives the spirit the looks. He may use his attributes to emulate the function of the object, but they should fit.

So the toaster could toast without taking damage, if his immunity to normal weapons is high enough.

I have no problem with disagreeing sicne the problem with vague rules can be fun to mess around with.

Well, In regard to metahuman forms or any animal for that matter we could always go with 'Average' for the metatype/animal

After all, a F3 Spirit/Troll would have 3 Body 6 Armor and Immunity to normal weapons. It could also wear armor that would combine with the body attribute. So at BOD 3 and the rest as average attribtues for the metatype it could wear a bulletproof vest (armor 6 - Max BODX2) and combine that with 6 armor.

So BOD 3 Armor 12 would still give a 'weak' spirit 15D6 resistance where 6 points of armour would be used first to see if it ignores the damage.

In these matters I would allow function to follow form if they have the Realistic Form power. It has inherent weaknesses also. A F12 spirit taking on the form of an average human would not be able to since they would be forced to be a metatype at minimum BOD6 which is F12/2=6.

It gives us a good baseline of what spirits can do and also limit the abuse of a F12 housfly that wipes the floor with everyone.

The problem is that you would essentially spend several points of force powers to get a spirit variant of a camouflage spell where you imitate objects in a severely limited way. Not to mention that the free spirit 'class' cost 250 points to begin with.

I would let it be a vehicle but also play out the limitations.
-No identification/License plate (what will law enforcement think)
-Follows the laws of physics (might need a piloting skill of the spirit)
-6 hours standard operation time (before the spirit becomes...tired?)
-Might need a runway
-Must use vehicle rules

Since it also *is* a vehicle we might as well treat it as a drone so it will have to do Sensor tests perhaps?

Its easy to find limitations.

Personally, I wouldn't let them fly at all. They shouldn't gain any significant functionality. As I said earlier, I'm not even sure if it's okay to gain even a normal piece of rare/expensive equipment (lasers, milspec armor, etc.).

I think the Force/Body rules as described sound pretty okay, as does the idea of turning into 'normal' guns, typical armor, and so on. Mostly, though, I'm in the camp of 'these powers are just very good disguises'.

Phew...I didn't think I'd spark a 4 page rant with this one

I'll go with the power being a disguise and stats stay as per the spirit...the GM (that's me!) is happy with that interpretation I'll gloss over the functionality part...the spirit wants to be able to turn into multiple metahumans in a doppleganger kind of way and I don't see it turning into a car or a toaster...

Disregarding the pure RP parts, the rules? Domains were awesome. Spirits vs Elementals was awesome. I find the 'all the same' of the new magic rules dull and bland. Sure, you can RP it out, but that doesn't motivate me to want to buy more product or introduce new players. That's just me personally of course.

Because that Laser Canonon would still need a power source to function. The Power source is a seperate thing from the basic functionality of the Cannon. If the Power source were available, THEN you could fire the Cannon, if not, well, you have a really pretty cannon....

That and chances are if spirits can't do matrix, they also can't do lasers.

I would limit their functional emulation capabilities at simple electrical circuitry and purely mechanical functions.

So you are saying that you would not enforce the limitations/fluff of the Tradition itself? As a Hermetic, I would never try to summon a Water Spirit from a Lava bed, it would just make absolutely no sense. Same goes with summoning a Hearth Spirit (Spirit of Man) in the primeval Wilderness for a Shaman....

Just because we have a more Unified Magical Theory does not remove the differences in Tradition. I know that I (We) enforce those differences in game at our table. And yes, sometimes it does often take a bit of research into the various magical beliefs and traditions out there, to get an understanding for how things are done within the tradition/belief system. I think it enriches the game to do so. *shrug*

I can understand, though, if you are not wanting to do such things. It is a game, and not everyone likes to do homework for something that should be enjoyable.

Actually, i am correct. In fact, I provided a rules quote to support my claim as well. The Shapechange spell specifically references a particular section of the core rulebook for a list of animals that the spell can tutn you in to. If you disagree on the basis of rules please cite your references.

Actually, You ARE WRONG. And I really think that you know that, and just feel like arguing.

Here is the rule:





Now, are you going to really argue that you may only take the 5 Forms the book gives as examples (Dog, Great Cat, Horse, Shark and Wolf) when the spell specifically calls out other examples like Bear and Eagle. You are starting to sound like you have not read and comprehended what is being said, by not allowing specifically what the Spell SAYS IT DOES. It says you can be a Normal Critter (ANY NORMAL CRITTER). Of which there are tens of thousands of variants that you can choose from (and actually many more, depending upon what you consider as viable critter selections). If you really believe that you can only be a dog, great cat, horse, shark or wolf, well, you are sorely wrong, as the text proves. ALL is a far cry from the 5 Examples provided in the main book. Just wanted to point that out.

Yes. No one said the book rules were good. If you're going to turn into anything not listed, though, the GM has to stat it. That's houseruling more options into the spell.

No, the option is already there. The stats for such a critter are up to the GM.