Ever since 1st ed SR I have wondered about lighter than air crafts. Not the blimp drones that can hang in air forever but the zeppelins. The great airships hinted at along the way but which seem to have died out by 4th ed.

Even before the Hindenberg BBq in 1937 airships were losing out to airplanes for technology but if there hand't been ww2 it might have carried on.

Zepp' are slower than planes so you don't take them for speed travel, a top speed of around 98 MPH really can't compete with planes in a get to a from b in time
So my thought was when do you take a trip where the speed doesn't matter? The answer is a luxery cruise. In RL the Costa Concordia was supposed to loop around the sites of the western med. In the US cruise ships loop the Carib or down the west coast of Mexico or up through Alaska.

No one really goes anywhere fast it's the voyage that counts. Zeps could follow similar ocurses but also not be limited to coasts. a cruise of great CSA cities springs to mind, or through coasts generally too choppy for cruises-from Denmark to Brittany and bakc through the UK comes to mind.

At it's height the Hindenberg could carry 50 passengers nad had a crew of 60-80. Crewmen worked 4 hours on 8 hours off. When it was destroyed the Zeppelin company was working on 2 new ships that had capacity of 50 % more.

Individual 'state' rooms were small. little wider than a sofa and a desk. The sofa at night owuld be turned into 2 bunks, one above the other. The idea is most people would spend time not in their closet, I mean cabin, but in the lounges, dining room or bar. Weight had to be saved in a lot of odd ways but modern metals should go even further. I can give more stats if needed but the lounge in the 3rd Indianna Jones film was pretty good.

what do you think? Beyond answering the old issues raised it could be a whole new area for runs, a whole new industry- ship designes, tricks for lightening equipment, luxery commodeties, courses for ships, and so forth.

See the Luftschiffbau Zeppelin LZ-2065 (Zeppelin) on page 114 of Arsenal.

It makes a spectacular base for a runner team if you can afford it and trick it out; especially if you place some directional receivers/emitters on buildings and the like with LOS to the Zeppelin and then place a tight beam laser to hit them with for broadcasting, get a couple dozen (or couple hundred) of them set up and hop between them constantly. It will shatter any trace cold because all they will get is the fixed receiver/emitter's location and well, those have LOS to a very large chunk of the city. Even without a zeppelin you can do that yo break traces by bouncing your signal around the sprawl on a tight beam laser. With drones to play as relay points it get's even more impossible to trace.

I think your idea would be good for voyages that travel through areas that are meteorologically stable, no sudden storms, etc, where you need to get away from fast.

There might also be something to the idea that in a typical jet, catastrophic engine failure means the plane goes into the ground like an highly explosive lawn dart, whereas in an LTA craft, when the engines fail it floats gently to the ground while everyone has their martinis refreshed. Really, it doesn't matter if zeps are any safer as long as they're perceived as being safer. The ability to land and deflate (?) would probably be necessary to deal with inclement weather, unless it could go higher than the storms. (I don't really know that much about zeppelins.)

From a run design perspective, zeppelins are aircraft that you can raid in flight. That's pretty cool. You could trade passenger and luggage space for more open areas if you wanted a skyward version of a riverboat casino; it would be useful for daytrips and dinner parties and the like. Instead of pools, the Lido deck would offer bungee jumping or maybe skydiving (the latter if they have a way to ferry passengers back to the ship). Perhaps the luxury skyliner could be used to transport people from resort to resort (much like island hopping ocean liners), particularly in mountain regions where roads are unreliable. (Having a mountain resort accessible only by skyship seems like the height of luxury-- no pun intended-- so much easier to keep the riffraff out.) It would also be a safer alternative to road travel in areas of instability, although this is drifting more into the territory covered by Crimson Skies.

I haven't looked at them, how big are zeppelins in SR? Are there any floorplans out there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroscraft

I'd think another bonus would be their long air time without needing to refuel and with the right add-ons being self repairing. Add in some drones specifically meant to refuel the craft and it could have a near infinite flight time. A corp might base their upper management or even their entire company within the "mobile office." Small cults and rich hermits would also be likely candidates for wanting a way to segregate themselves from everyone else while staying on the move.

I love LTA craft. They play heavily into my games-as both cargo transports, and passenger transports. They're too slow to be too useful for Law Enforcement purposes, however they're potentially great platforms for surveillance operations and in my games corporations, Law Enforcement Agencies, the Military, Governments and News Agencies all maintain LTA surveillance platforms that do everything from monitor traffic, task drone and live bodies to assignments, monitor communications, and in some cases provide fire support.

LTA rock.

KondOrchid uses a lot of LTA craft in south america, if I remember correctly (or is that only from the unofficial Shadows of South America? I forget...)

I had a character planned who had a completely stealthed out LTA as his hideout outside of the cities . .
Basically, ditch anything that can be tracked, switch vehicles twice while getting there, walk the last miles on foot.
Be at a specified point in time and space to grab on to a ladder, do the indian rope trick and vanish at the top.
Live in pure luxury away from everything in a flying condo that does not appear on any kind of sensor.
Basically, it's one of those super stealth submarines for the air . . the only way to find it is to look for a spot where nothing is there.

You could make campaings that literally never touch the ground.

What kind of zeppelins could be useful and/or victims/target for runs? They can all operate on high altitude which makes them somewhat protected from most runners.

-High Altitude Research Lab
-Luxury Cruiser
-Transporter
-Ultra Rich Media Mogul Home
-Smuggler
-Military Drone Carrier
-Refugee home (like a houseboat)

What kind of resistance can one face?

GTS Tower support carrier drone with modified Ares Heimdall missiles X10
-Ares Heimdall with LTA modification (60 hours operation time - speed 1500 meters per combat turn...) (insane - yes )

GTS Tower with an extra Multilaunch Rack to carry X20 Ares heimdall missiles

The possibilities are almost endlessas most of them can stay in the air indefinitely with a little supply of spare parts and food.

Well, Most (if not all) LTA's cannot operate at the altitudes that Planes typically fly at, but they are pretty nice. I posted a writeup of an LTA Super Yacht/Mansion a while back. I use it for one of my Prime Runners. It received pretty good reviews.

I love the concept of LTA Yachts/Exclusive Passenger Liners.

Why, for the love of all that is holy, would you want a Heimdall that is LTA. It is a Misile, it has no need for that.

Well, a LTA with additional prop motors for additional lift and solar cells should be able to increase lift to higher altitudes.



It is now a long range cruise missile with 60 hours operation time... You can run but IT will not run out of fuel before you do.

1 point for LTA
2 point for Ruthenium Polymer Coating
1 points Signature Masking (for madness exhange for additional fueltank for 180 hours operation time)

Stealth Cruise Missile that can circle the earth...

KM/H=(((SPEED/3 Seconds Combat Turn)*60)*60)/1000

Total Speed of LTA missile=1800KM/H

Range in 60 hours= 1800 X 60 = 10 800 Kilometers in 60 hours

Problem is actual weight. If it is very tiny, and had no passengers, I would agree with you, but the LTA Cruise Liner will not be flying much above about 5000 Meters. Which is still pretty high (about 3 miles), to be honest.



I understand the range thing. Just not really the utility of it, personally. You are not a world power as a Shadowrunner, why would you really need that capability? *shrug*

And it is not really a Cruise Missile. It has limited utility (Read as almost nil) against anything that a Real Cruise Missile would be used against.

Anything large enought to land/dock on another Zeppelin is a viable target or a sea based target like a ship. Yes, these missile would have a very limited use - its more of a lulz thing.

As well, your operation time is More than Way off... LTA only increases Operation time by a factor of 10. So, It goes from 18 Seconds (6 Turns) to 180 Seconds (3 Minutes). This is a FAR Cry from 60 Hours of Operation Time.

I agree it is more of a Lulz thing. I prefer the Inferno Warhead, if your GM allow sit. Nothing better than a Heimdall with an Inferno Warhead.

DOH!

Yea, i was thinking of regular drones with 6 hours operation time X10 = 60 Hours. Been awhile since I read those rules it seems.

Hey, no worries. With 60 Turns of operating time, and 1500 m/Turn, it is hoofing it pretty fast, and will chase down any vehicle it is targeted at, to be sure.

You'd still better hope your stealth and defenses are perfect, because you're totally vulnerable at all times. *shrug*

The Seconds of use are for the rocket thrusters only.
If it's LTA, it will float. Tow it to where you want it to wait.
Then leave it there. And when you need it start the thruster.

They're talking about the RAW application of the mods, though. RAW is dumb and doesn't care about concerns like that.

so a car uses up fuel/battery power even when it's being towed too? O.o
and a boat? o.O
and . . are there even gliders? Unmotorized fixed wing planes that glide from way high to the ground slowly?

I would use the LTA rules for idle vehicles as they are in one way or the other using power, or at least the mainframe on board that can start the car.

I would imagine gliders could stay aloft forever. Give a glider weather pattern software, pilot program and solar cell and then the damn thing can glide on every updraft it can find - still, the course might be erratic, and slow so an engine might be useful.

Wiggle your eyes all you want, but I'm just saying they're only applying the RAW directly to the Heimdall. It's not about common sense, because common sense left the meeting when someone said 'a blimp missile?!'. RAW says 'reduced Speed by X and increase operation time by Y'.

I agree, since the main propulsion of the missile IS the rocket with X amount of combat turns before burning out it should be that it also has regular rocket fuel and might then not have much in the way of battery power for other functions.

So we might tow a LTA missile in place and then a few hours later you MIGHT be able to activate it unless the battery has gone out or worse, blown of course by a couple of miles.

It's just that the LTA mod is more 'expecting' to be applied to a prop or something. My point is that one shouldn't just toss mods on RAW when they don't really fit… *without* tweaking things to fit. That's all.

This is agree with 100%...
IT IS ODD to attempt to apply the LTA mod to a Missile. I woiuld not do it myself, but apparently The Jopp likes the idea. *Shrug*

Well, a missle ain't as heavy as stuff it's usually applied to, right?

That would be true...

For luxury cruise vehicles, being driven by the wind might actually be a selling point, regardless of your drive being able to beat that storm. Gives you something to post about if you are a twitter type of person. With a short journey to the next international airport you can be anywhere you need to be in the flesh within hours.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargolifter_AG

Poor Cargolifter, never got off the ground . .

It's not a question of weight, here, but of the propulsion. LTA seems like it works better with something moderate and continuous (like a prop), not something intense and limited (chemical rocket). So, we shouldn't be surprised if it yields a funny result to simply apply the RAW directly. I'm not saying 'you can't do this'.

Heavy weather in not an issue asm uch as you'd think. it was only one of the things that lead to the loss of the R101 and the USS Shanendoah and USS Akron. The German pilots were particularly good at evading bad weather and on it's last trip the hindenberg had it's speed reduced at one point ot 30 mph but it still made head way in relative comfort, just a plodding speed.

For floor plans you can let your mind play. The difference between a blimp and a zeppelin is that a blimp deflates, a zep is a ridged frame with gas bags inside. with the Graf Zeppelin there was a central hallway with 'state rooms' on each side of it with windows facing outwards and a single lounge at the from of that with the galley and cock pit in front. crew quarters and supplies behind.

The Hindenberg had two tiers, in each case with the staterooms on the inside and multiple lounges bars on the outside. The idea was that people would psend time oscilizing in the lounges, not in their rooms.life focusing around the meals. You were not given a menue but the meals were served 'this is the lunch' sort of thing.

The Hidenberg also wasn't as much as a disaster as people think, most of the people on board survived, and one of the casualties was a poor unlucky guy on the ground who the thing landed on.

I love zeppelins personally, with the modern materials in Shadowrun they are pretty tough to take down.

Of all the times to roll a natural 1 on your evasion check... Poor bastard probably didn't realize it was coming down till it was too late. The flames wouldn't have been obvious at the start from directly underneath.



You can totally do Crimson Skies 2072 with zeppelins and Shadowrun.

You can also do Talespin 2072, including the Iron Vulture of Don Karnage

With a troll bear shapeshifter changeling with animal features and his boy who drives a plane...

Yeah, but let's be honest, they're not going to do Talespin. Even if you, the ST, set out to do Talespin, they will turn it into Crimson Skies.

Well, over here, people know Talespin a lot better than Crimson Skies . .

Consider a dirigible composed of material x with density y and strength z. With y sufficiently small and z sufficiently large a vacuum chamber can be constructed so the aircraft can reach the upper limits of the atmosphere where drag from the air -> 0. At this point the aircraft engages rocket boosters and heads into space where its nuclear powered impulse drive takes over and the craft heads off to Mars...

I toyed with that idea a bit. It would make supply and satellite launches a LOT cheaper.

My first character ended his career flying into space on his superblimp with a couple of tungsten telephone poles with the flying weapon mod.....

You can do anything with unobtainium.

Well in shadowrun you can get magicians to levitate up to a certain point and then take an escape craft while the dirigible flies off.

That's true, but aren't there very strict limits on the mass they can levitate? Even small satellites are huge, let alone nuclear escape craft bound for Mars.

Even so, you're playing Shadowrun. Shadowrun lends itself far more to the genre that is Nathan Zachary and the Fortune Hunters than it does to the lovable, bumbling cartoon characters.....



Hrm.... Now I'm wondering what the stats for a truly massive, Crimson-Skies-esque, flying aircraft carrier would be like.

Obviously, it would need an anti-missile defense system. Give it enough lasers to shoot down missiles, and the other team will have to climb into airplanes and try to take the bitch down the old-fashioned way.

pop up turret on the top with a minigun with a vulcan style radar.

There's a lot of emphisis on them as runner hsipds in the ocmments. i was thinking of them as luxury cruisers.

2/3rds of the people on the Hindenburg survived but the news reel of it going up in 30 seconds got played all over the nation. it scared the general population who'd read about the american airships lost and the r101, then they got to see it for themselves.

They're also slow, etc. There are a few things they're good for.

We can get in troublesome territory when inventive people decides that it is a good idea to put a fre spirit inside a zeppelin and then put a ward around it.

You now have a spirit inhabited zeppelin with movement, concealment and regenerate and protected by a ward.

That's a big ward, and a big single object for a spirit to possess, yeah. But anything and everything about possession is broken, so this is no surprise.

I have liked luxury zeppelins since my cyber punk 2020 days. So in full agreement with Snowfox.

Had them as a run meet and the PCs liked them so much they demanded more. Firstly as one day outing rewards to themselves for a run well done and then as part of work time for personal wetwork revenge/survival.

With sunsell medium transports have a low tempo for logistics companies and the gilded lily luxury liners akin to the Grand Tour bus work pretty well.

Think of a restaurant that serves a 3000 chocolate sunday with complementary platnium spoon with clientele to match.