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bibliophile20
An odd question, but I can't quite find an answer in the books; there's a -6 penalty for Perception tests when in VR, but how unaware, exactly, of their physical body is someone when they're in VR? Not noticing little things, yes, but would they really fail to notice that the housecat is sitting on their chest, that they're being posed in various embarrassing ways, or (as the prank war between the PC technomancer and his teenaged roommates continues to escalate) that the right half of their body is being shaved, even if the dice pool's been reduced to 0?
Eratosthenes
Per various descriptions/fluff, VR pretty much replaces and overrides your senses completely. Some sensation may bleed through, and it might be possible to try to pay attention to what's going on with a concerted effort, but for the most part what you're experiencing in VR blocks out what's going on in the real world.

Shaving one half their body might result in a tingling sensation across their icon for the hacker/'mancer while in VR. The cat might cause them to feel a slight pressure on their icon's "chest". If they have a really high perception DP, then they might just be more aware of what's going on, and would be able to tell what it is.

I like to think of it like Inception, where what was happening in other dreamstates bled through to the current "focused" dream state. Van going over the bridge? Gravity started to go wonky. Maybe not to that degree, but probably something like that.
SpellBinder
That's why the smart hacker either has more trustworthy friends, or has a camera (or drone, or whatever) aimed at their body with a personal icon of the feed so they can just glance and see what's happening. An experienced TM can learn the Mesh Reality echo, where they can be in VR and the real world at the same time.

If your DP's 0, then you'd have no idea what's going on to your meat body. You automatically fail any/all perception tests.
CanRay
I describe it as "Ragdolling" and everyone understands what I mean by that so far. In fact, the Magician in my group was able to cast a "Control Actions" on the Technomancer when he was in VR with no resistance because his mind was somewhere else.
DeathStrobe
If you have no dice to roll, you'd never know.

The only way you'd notice is if you were being attacked. And that might be a maybe. Who's to say you'd assume that just because your mind is slowing down in the Matrix, that you'd know its because you are being punched in the face by a troll or bleeding to death with a knife in your gut.

But why would someone want to beat up some helpless chump who's jacked in to the Matrix when it'd be more fun to tie him up and dump shock him, followed by a series of intimidation tests with a troll and a large melee weapon to see what he knows...or maybe that's just me.
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
In fact, the Magician in my group was able to cast a "Control Actions" on the Technomancer when he was in VR with no resistance because his mind was somewhere else.
I'm pretty sure this is not the case, though. For magic.
Tias
I advice players playing hackers to take a biomonitor, and in this case I'll allow them to notice (in most cases) things like pain and being moved, as well as when they take physical damage (in all cases, the monitor will pick up stress).
The Jopp
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 21 2012, 06:48 AM) *
I'm pretty sure this is not the case, though. For magic.


Regardless it might have been a moot point as I would have slapped on the -6D6 penalty for resisting the spell. You might even call him unconcious and a voluntary target.
CanRay
He was giving a "Thumbs Up" for more money, so the player didn't complain, and even admitted that I had a point about his mind being elsewhere. wink.gif
Halinn
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 23 2012, 08:56 AM) *
He was giving a "Thumbs Up" for more money, so the player didn't complain, and even admitted that I had a point about his mind being elsewhere. wink.gif

Really ought to stop watching VR porn when meeting with the Johnson.
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
Regardless it might have been a moot point as I would have slapped on the -6D6 penalty for resisting the spell. You might even call him unconcious and a voluntary target.
Again, I'm pretty sure *this* is super not-the-case. You're not unconscious or voluntary unless you're unconscious, or voluntary. You don't get such a huge bonus when someone is daydream, meditating, etc. Magic is magical, including the drawbacks.
CrystalBlue
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 23 2012, 10:34 AM) *
Again, I'm pretty sure *this* is super not-the-case. You're not unconscious or voluntary unless you're unconscious, or voluntary. You don't get such a huge bonus when someone is daydream, meditating, etc. Magic is magical, including the drawbacks.


Agreed. In fact, I would say that the mind is a bit more aware about what's going on, since the Matrix is flooding in and out of it at a rate higher then normal machines can go. Mana mixes with the astral and essence, unless you're conjuring something physical. To manipulate someone's mind, you have to take control of their thoughts and play around with them. At that time, their thoughts are anything but slow. I might even go so far as to say that to do a Control Actions on a target in VR, it would be a -2 to the Mage to cast the spell, since the target's mind is super-charged. That's what it feels like to me, at least.
Yerameyahu
It's fine either way as a house rule (because everything is). I just object to the idea that it's the 'normal' way things work. smile.gif We had another thread where someone was arguing that a VR mind was 'out' of the body, facrissake.
almost normal
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 23 2012, 05:44 PM) *
It's fine either way as a house rule (because everything is). I just object to the idea that it's the 'normal' way things work. smile.gif We had another thread where someone was arguing that a VR mind was 'out' of the body, facrissake.


It was more that a Technomancer's brain functions in the same manner as a magician's brain, insofar as going hot VR and astral, therefore the obviously duplicitous initiation and submerging powers forcing a target to go into astral/VR would function the same way. After much stammering and "B-b-b-but Magic!" no actual consensus was reached, and in order to keep the Old Ones locked away, such insanity should never be mentioned again.
Yerameyahu
It's simply not the case: any hacker's mind always resides in his brain while experiencing VR. There is simply nowhere else for it to be. A mage's mind literally is out of the body when he's projecting.
CanRay
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 24 2012, 06:12 PM) *
It's simply not the case: any hacker's mind always resides in his brain while experiencing VR. There is simply nowhere else for it to be. A mage's mind literally is out of the body when he's projecting.
AH! But what about a Technomancer? That's what was happening in my case. wink.gif
Yerameyahu
I was talking about the technomancer. He's part of 'any hacker', he's just not using a separate commlink. The possibility came up of resonance realms, but that's rare and weird enough to skip for this purpose.
Eratosthenes
Well, if it's a mana spell doing the manipulation, then it must go through the mind to affect the body, regardless of where said mind is.

You might rule that a physical spell (like telekinesis) could work with no resist test.
almost normal
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 25 2012, 02:08 AM) *
AH! But what about a Technomancer? That's what was happening in my case. wink.gif


Exactly. A TM uses their mind in a manner duplicitous to a mage with Astral. TM's can go AR, Mages can Astrally Perceive. TM's can go full VR, Mages can Astrally Project.

Despite what some folks insist, the rules are silent. Go with whatever you feel works.
Yerameyahu
This is simply not at all what the rules say. The bionode functions as a commlink, sending signals in and out. The mind does not 'go' to other nodes. In no way is AR/VR analogous to Astral Sense/Astral Project. Astral Perception literally makes you dual-natured; Astral Perception literally shifts your mind fully to the astral form.

This is extra obvious when considering the case of mesh reality, just for example; or the simple, simple fact (already in this thread) that you can perceive (at a penalty) while VR.
almost normal
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 25 2012, 02:31 PM) *
This is simply not at all what the rules say.


Uhhh, what? What rule says that a TM can't go AR or VR?

Or is your argument that there are no "rules" that cover the implicit duplicity of Astral and a Techmancer's handling of the Matrix? Because I'd agree with you. You're seemingly being pedantic for the sake of arguing, but I'd agree with you. Frankly I'm not even sure what you're getting at, as I can't comprehend what this hypothetical rule would even state.
CanRay
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 25 2012, 01:31 PM) *
This is simply not at all what the rules say.
Where? Please state sources.
Yerameyahu
No one said anything about technos not using AR/VR.

Yes, I'm saying there are no rules that anyone's mind using AR/VR 'goes anywhere' (this is beyond obvious for AR, of course). AR/VR are simsense signals going into the brain, and nothing else; they are not functionally distinct in terms of 'going anywhere' from using a display. There is no 'going anywhere' (which is handy, because you can work with multiple nodes at once… for big penalties). This is not pedantry, it's the basic nature of simsense; and when the proposed application is 'they can't resist magic because their mind is literally gone', it clearly matters. This is in stark opposition to astral, which is literally another place that the mage's mind literally goes to (for which there are extensive rules).

Everywhere, CanRay. smile.gif
_Pax._
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Apr 20 2012, 09:36 PM) *
The only way you'd notice is if you were being attacked. And that might be a maybe. Who's to say you'd assume that just because your mind is slowing down in the Matrix, that you'd know its because you are being punched in the face by a troll or bleeding to death with a knife in your gut.

Perfect reason to have a Biosystem Monitor tied in to your PAN. You mgith nto FEEL teh damage, but when your blood pressure starts dropping precipitously, and pain-toxins start showing up in yoru bloodstream? Yeah, that little picture-in-picture jobby you've got should start flashing amber or red, to let you know there was trouble back in meatspace. smile.gif

Alternately, if you have Nanosymbionts and a Nanohive, link them into your PAN and set them to red-flag you if they have to go active. Even just a bruise should get them moving, and once again you'd get the alert that there was trouble in meatspace.

QUOTE
But why would someone want to beat up some helpless chump who's jacked in to the Matrix when it'd be more fun to tie him up and dump shock him, followed by a series of intimidation tests with a troll and a large melee weapon to see what he knows...or maybe that's just me.

BEcause dead hackers/technos don't call for help from their heavily-armed friends? biggrin.gif
_Pax._
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 25 2012, 04:43 PM) *
Yes, I'm saying there are no rules that anyone's mind using AR/VR 'goes anywhere' (this is beyond obvious for AR, of course).

Doesn't matter.

If you go VR, even just Cold Sim, you are TURNING OFF YOUR PHYSICAL SENSES, and replacing their meat-generated data stream with the VR's data.

It's not that your mind isn't IN your meat-body, it's that your mind may not be AWARE of your meat-body. You essentially become deaf, blind, and full-body numb.
Yerameyahu
While that's not quite true (as mentioned above; it's more like VR is 'drowning out' your meat senses than replacing/turning-off), it's also not the point. The issue is whether someone can say, 'you can't resist magic because your mind is *literally not present*'. They didn't say anything about awareness.
QUOTE
In fact, the Magician in my group was able to cast a "Control Actions" on the Technomancer when he was in VR with no resistance because his mind was somewhere else.
QUOTE
Regardless it might have been a moot point as I would have slapped on the -6D6 penalty for resisting the spell. You might even call him unconcious and a voluntary target.
I'm fine with a house rule that says VR hackers/technos are more vulnerable to certain spells because they're so *distracted*, but just don't say it's because their mind isn't there or they're unconscious/voluntary.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Apr 25 2012, 10:56 PM) *
BEcause dead hackers/technos don't call for help from their heavily-armed friends? biggrin.gif

Jammers would solve that problem. After all, you got to dumpshock them somehow.
phlapjack77
QUOTE (almost normal @ Apr 26 2012, 01:57 AM) *
...TM uses their mind in a manner duplicitous to a mage with Astral...



QUOTE (almost normal @ Apr 26 2012, 03:01 AM) *
cover the implicit duplicity of Astral and a Techmancer's handling of the Matrix?

This word...it doesn't mean what you think it means.

And just so my post is constructive in an on-topic way, I think this is firmly in the realm of GM-fiat. Judge how hard it would be to notice what is happening to the character's body(depending on what is happening to the body), apply the -6 full-VR modifier, apply any other applicable modifiers, and see if there are Perception dice left to roll.

Being in VR is fundamentally different from astrally projecting. Astrally projecting mages LEAVE their meat body. Full-VR characters never "leave" and are still able to move their body, the only reason they usually can't is because it was deemed dangerous to do so, and so a RAS cutoff is standard in sim modules.
almost normal
Sorry, its a gamer term. Comes from ATHF. I'm used to dealing with gamers whod pick up on the reference quick and move on.
_Pax._
QUOTE (almost normal @ Apr 26 2012, 01:14 PM) *
Sorry, its a gamer term. Comes from ATHF. I'm used to dealing with gamers whod pick up on the reference quick and move on.

No, you really aren't using that word correctly.

"Duplicity" means deception, lies, and deceit: dictionary reference. Which is not at all similar to the meaning implied by the context of your usage. Seriously, not even in the same ballpark.
CollateralDynamo
Long time since I posted, longer time that I've been lurking...

Moving away from the language argument that this is devolving into:
I have had a few con GMs rule that their NPCs automatically notice things that he would need zero hits on perception to notice. It happened to me in last year's Gen Con tournament as a matter of fact.

His argument was that, even though the target's perception has been dropped to zero through penalties, he would still be capable of noticing things that would require '0 hits on perception'. Which he claimed would be things like taking damage and the like.

This seems to me to be a similar situation. Personally, at my table I wouldn't rule this way, but I haven't been able to find anything in RAW that explicitly states who is correct. Thoughts?
rlor
I'd think that VR (assuming you have <7 for perception) works the same way as getting no successes on a perception test. If someone had 3 dice for perception and rolled no successes on a perception test then whatever information you'd give them would be the same you'd give someone with a 0 DP for perception. Your body is still sending signals to your brain they're just of secondary importance to the VR input.

As an example meat puppets running PersonaFix require a hot sim VR connection and still can interact with their environment (at a -6 penalty).
Yerameyahu
For practical purposes, runners tend to have huge Perception DPs. So this does matter.
CollateralDynamo
Something to consider:
- If someone has a 5 DP for perception and is going VR they roll -1 die. Clearly this means they roll nothing. And it may also mean they get 0 successes.
- If someone has 6 DP for perception, they roll 0 dice and get 0 successes.
- However if someone has 7 DP for perception they now get to roll one die and have a one in six chance of critical glitching and a two in six of getting a single hit. (Which notices very little anyway)

If you assume for low dice pools over penalized just means 'auto zero hits', you remove the chance for glitching. It also makes it so that the guy in VR with a net -5 perception (a terrible base 1 int) and the guy with a net 0 perception (pretty perceptive for a 'muggle') have the exact same odds for seeing things.

It just seems against RAI to me. But I suppose RAW is RAW...
Yerameyahu
Yeah, that problem is a general one for 'low' DPs in SR4, cropping up with various NPCs, drones, etc. *shrug* I dunno what a satisfying version is (including the RAW option).
rlor
In which case they'd have some dice left over to roll to perceive things the same way they do if they're dealing with smoke, astrally perceiving, etc. The only example I can think of for VR and world interaction is the PersonaFix program which allows the person to use their body and get sensory data (at the standard -6).

I could see an argument for if you still have the safety on that it would block signals both ways but if you have the signal off so you can still walk around then you should still have a connection with the rest of your body, its just hard to focus on it with VR flooding your mind.
Yerameyahu
AFAIK, the RAS Override only does one thing: turns off your muscles (as when humans sleep, typically). Sensory info is still incoming from your body whether the RASO is working or not, but it is drowned out by the much 'louder' VR simsense.
rlor
Yeah, thats the way we play it, you can still operate and detect stuff with your body regardless of the override. Our GM has always been more than happy to have the techno/hacker/rigger types in VR mode and stumbling around in the runs that require it than protected by cocoon inside an armored car or at home or hacking in AR with wired reflexes cyber.
Sengir
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 26 2012, 10:46 PM) *
AFAIK, the RAS Override only does one thing: turns off your muscles (as when humans sleep, typically). Sensory info is still incoming from your body whether the RASO is working or not, but it is drowned out by the much 'louder' VR simsense.

To stick with the audio example, reliably drowning out normal sound levels with more sound pressure would quickly lead to hearing damage. Since AFAIK simsense does not lead to people "burning out" their senses, I'd conclude that a sim module turns down the natural senses rather than feeding crazy high signal levels to the brain. Unless you slot 2XS...

The result fro the discussion at hand remains the same, though: Normal sensory input is below the perception threshold unless it is really strong. And even if somebody kicks your meat body in the nuts, you'd still need to figure out that the pain you feel is not part of the sim signal.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Sengir @ Apr 27 2012, 01:02 AM) *
To stick with the audio example, reliably drowning out normal sound levels with more sound pressure would quickly lead to hearing damage. Since AFAIK simsense does not lead to people "burning out" their senses, I'd conclude that a sim module turns down the natural senses rather than feeding crazy high signal levels to the brain. Unless you slot 2XS...

Hm...I don't know. You can actually develop an addiction to Hot Sim VR, and with higher and higher levels of addiction you can finally burn out on it. It makes sense if your constantly using BTL's that they'd really start to screw with your nervous system.
Yerameyahu
That's why it's just a metaphor, Sengir. wink.gif There's nothing in the books that suggests the matrix gear does (or even *can*) 'turn down/off' your senses. If they could, you wouldn't need a pain editor. Instead, it says this: "Perceiving the VR Matrix in its full glory overwhelms the physical senses." Regardless, my point there was that the RASO turns off just your *muscles*. We know it doesn't turn *off* your senses, if it has any effect on them at all.
almost normal
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Apr 26 2012, 01:39 PM) *
No, you really aren't using that word correctly.

"Duplicity" means deception, lies, and deceit: dictionary reference. Which is not at all similar to the meaning implied by the context of your usage. Seriously, not even in the same ballpark.


Yeah, you missed the point there, but thanks for playing, Grammar Nazi.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (almost normal @ Apr 27 2012, 10:03 AM) *
Yeah, you missed the point there, but thanks for playing, Grammar Nazi.


And there you go again, pissing other people of. Is it a hobby for you?
Phlapjack77 and _Pax_ have a very valid point. Your word usage was off and it was pointed out fairly diplomatically. And all you can do is piss in his (their?) Wheaties about it.
Yerameyahu
Um. He admitted it was his hobby and goal last time, TJ. smile.gif
Sengir
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 27 2012, 02:09 AM) *
There's nothing in the books that suggests the matrix gear does (or even *can*) 'turn down/off' your senses.

Except for what I already wrote: simsense does not render one deaf and blind after jacking out, not even temporarily. As for the Pain Editor, that one is obviously far more specific (and therefore complicated) than shutting off all senses...


PS: "Grammar" seems to be another word our resident troll does not understand. If anything, Pax is a Semantics Nazi...and me too, I guess, but given my nationality being a Nazi on the internet is somewhat axiomatic biggrin.gif
Yerameyahu
I don't understand your last comment, Sengir. What point does "simsense does not render one deaf and blind after jacking out, not even temporarily" refer to? Are you agreeing with me ('matrix gear has no effect on your senses'), or are you still trying to extend the metaphor beyond its domain?
Sengir
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 27 2012, 05:47 PM) *
I don't understand your last comment, Sengir. What point does "simsense does not render one deaf and blind after jacking out, not even temporarily" refer to? Are you agreeing with me, or are you still trying to extend the metaphor beyond its domain?

If simsense simply drowned out the natural senses with "moa dakka", jacking out would leave the character severely impaired until (if ever) the brain has adapted to lower signal levels again. Since that does not happen, simsense obviously still works as it did in the 2060s: "ASIST circuitry includes a reticular-activation system override (RAS). The RAS override suppresses sensory signals from the userís meat body, freeing him to concentrate fully on the simsense experience of the Matrix" (Matrix, p. 19).
Yerameyahu
Only if the brain works like that in SR. Don't dirty this with real science, wink.gif

That's an excellent reference, and I stand corrected. (Assuming we can cross editions, etc.).

Because SR4 rules say you *can* sense things from the body, that means the RAS override indeed partially suppresses meat senses… and, I guess, *also* disables your muscles? For whatever reason, I thought that was its primary function, and I thought it was referenced as such in SR4. If so, it means you can disable the anti-muscles function, but you can't turn off the '-6 to senses' function (even though the writers across the editions seem to have mixed them up).

Found it, twice on this page:
QUOTE (SR4a 259)
The RAS override feature is frequently disabled so that users can move around freely under the influence of the chip.

And on 328:
QUOTE
This means that your physical body is limp while you’re online, as if you were sleeping. This reticular activation system (RAS) override can also be disabled with a Hardware + Logic (5, 1 hour) Extended Test, at the user’s own risk.

So. If it still does what you quoted from the previous edition, it must somehow not be disabled despite the whole unit being disabled; or, using a disabled RAS override actually removes the -6 penalty altogether?

Does this question have any bearing on wound mods, given that you're 'suppressing sensory signals from the user’s meat body'?
_Pax._
QUOTE (almost normal @ Apr 27 2012, 01:03 PM) *
Yeah, you missed the point there, but thanks for playing, Grammar Nazi.

Funny, I thought "the point" of using a language, was to clearly and comprehensibly relay your meaning?

Or perhaps I should take a cue from your ... "creative" ... use of words, despite their proper meaning?

Aberrant, Ocular forsee "the tip" for account a diction, abide to emphatically including distinctly displace your designate?

(Achievement Get: Thesaurus Rex)
_Pax._
QUOTE (Sengir @ Apr 27 2012, 01:35 PM) *
If anything, Pax is a Semantics Nazi...

Honestly, I'd've ignored the word-mis-usage in the first place; who knows if anyone here speaks English as their netive language, or even fluently (and lack of fluency can afflict even some of my fellow native-English speakers). And god knows I make enough mistakes (especially typos and misspellings) of my own, that I try never to be the one to start throwing rocks. Glass houses, and all. smile.gif

However, copping an attitude about it, with the whole "oh you're just too slow to understand me" thing? Yeah, that I won't let pass. >:/
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