Pax... you're overcomplicating it.

All you need is just 750.
Race costs karma == BP
Buy all stats from 1-6 including specials. All this comes from half starting max. (this helps limit magic/techno while still giving mundanes an edge in natural attributes w/o magical boosts)
Apply the race template AFTER buying stats from (both positives and negatives). This is the same way the book says to alter NPC's for changing metatypes as well (look in War and Contacts and Adventures... they adjust attributes by both + and - for metatype changes). Treating the positives and negatives differently is one of the problems in the system.

Future buys and improvements are done the same way... buy up the base and then apply cyber/metatype on top of it.

I've done this a few times and it works very well. It also makes it slightly more costly for a meta to raise a penalized attribute. But this offsets the 2x race BP vs 1x. Otherwise you end up boning humans as metas still end up with attributes for free... and penalized attributes are effectively no different than human low cost attributes with a lower cap.


I don't understand the 500k equipment limit as opposed to 250k. Suddenly with that synaptic 3 right out the gate looks very tempting...

Make a BPgen with skills(2 for active) and attributes(5pts) at half price, then compare the end result to a karmagenner.

Glyph has pretty much answered your question. The proportions, I cannot rightly tell, since every character I have you could term hyper-minmaxed, whether it is built with BP or karma. I think he is only missing out the high Edge, high Resonance human builds. (I know I am missing something but I just cannot recall what.)

750/5 karmagen is unbearable.

Sorry couldn't help it.

The mundanes don't need an edge in attributes specifically. Nor IMO do the Awakened, and Technomancers, need to get kicked inthe jimmies where their othr attributes are concerned.

If the Special attributes are excepted from the cap, then the mages/technos can choose whether or nto to short on attribute,s or to short on skills/gear/qualities, in order to afford Magic or Resonance. Everyone makes that choice for Edge.


And what do you do if the Troll left their Charisma at 1, before applying their racial -2?

If you say "he has a 1, no big deal" ... then you've set up a situation in which Trolls will all want to leave their charisma at 1 ... because getting a 2 during creation will cost 45 Karma (2x5, plus 3x5, plux 4x5 for a 4CHA, then -2 for Troll to wind up with 2CHA), but waiting until later means it costs only 10 karma (2x5 buys him up from 1 to 2).

If you say, "okay, then Trolls have to buy their Charisma up to 3 or higher" ... then you've just increased the cost of being a Troll by 25 Karma (10 to raise to 2CHA, 15 to raise to 3CHA).

... if you treat the negatives as reductions to the maximum, though? It won't matter WHEN the Troll raises their Charisma from 1 to 2 ... it'll always cost 10 Karma. Period. Every time.


... I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.


I don't think charging 90 Karma to be a troll makes those attributes "free". Especially since Humans get a free attribute point, too: Edge.


Typo on my part. Should be 100 Karma max. Oops.

Free spirits?

-CJ

Ah, Udoshi, thanks. That's what I thought you meant: 'BP is fine… if you totally change everything'. Same reaction for: … 'Everything else' except type, skills, attributes, and spells!? Hehe.

Yeah, Glyph's summary matches what I'd heard: BP is almost always worse.

Because that one man is the current line developer of Shadowrun, so his comments are indicative for what the future may hold. And he already has a previous track record for
a) releasing defective sourcebooks
b) not creating errata, but instead reinstating previously corrected errors



2D6 Sanity, plus some wear on my table surface and forehead.

We all see what we want to see.

*shrug* You're the one who said he basically covered it, and he's the one who said it's mostly these rare builds. He also said, "Karmagen usually works out better, though. I know that I am an optimizer, and my optimized builds come out a bit better in karmagen […]". Apparently I 'want' to see no other way of interpreting his apparently clear statements, which you endorsed.

Glyph listed the type of builds without classifying them as "rare" as you did. Apparently you "want" to see those builds as rare. Just because somethings are usual does not mean that the others needs be "rare".

I did almost the same thing the last game I was running. I chose to only charge 1x BP in Karma for metatype. You bought all your attributes starting from 1 and going up to 6. Once you had your attributes set, you applied racial mods. I also required that after racial mods, no attribute could be 0 or less.

The special attributes were not part of the attribute spend limit either.

Otherwise I followed what you posted.

It worked very well for us.

First, I didn't say 'rare' until after you commented. But… shapeshifters, nosferatu, and Lucky-mages? Those are rare. Things that are not 'usual' are 'rare' (unusual), by definition.

For these various (and, to my eye, identical?) karmagen fixes: darthmord, are the attribute 'negatives' being applied as actual reductions to the current score? That's how you make it sound. I rarely play karmagen, but I thought they were still only limits on the maximum (as in BPgen).

I had declined to comment on the rarity of those builds and while you did not mention rare, you were the first to raise the rarity issue in our conversation. Things that are not "usual" can be unusual or uncommon without being rare, it is a matter of degrees. For what it is worth, shapeshifters, sapient critters, infected and lucky human mages are not uncommon (although it doesn't mean that those builds are common, actually they are all pretty well represented and I can't say that any particular build is common or usual) in my collection of min-maxed character builds.

Ah. I'm using 'rare' to mean unusual and uncommon and rare, so I can see what you meant. I'd bet heavily that these three types *are* very 'rare' among the general SR population, but I only intended 'not-usual'. (Don't expand those categories too much, either: Glyph said troll/bear shifters, nosferatu, and luck+mage humans, not just 'various infected, etc.')

My main point was only that, if these are what BPgen *isn't* worse for, it's poor evidence for the idea that BPgen isn't worse than Karmagen (again, in general/'usually', because general is what matters).

And I disagree. I think that it is pretty good evidence that generally each character generation method have their own areas where it is superior to the other. In fact, I think I have some builds that used Priority too.

I am not expanding Glyph's categories. I specifically stated that those were in my collection of min-maxed character builds.

And I specifically said I was going off Glyph. Those are totally different arguments, though. I never said BP didn't have any areas where it's better. I said 'in general'. Again, if anything, these unusual types just go to show how it's unusual for BP to be better. *If* you're arguing that BP and Karma have roughly the same coverage of areas where each is better, and you're using *unusual* areas to support that, you're not correct.

I have no data on how balance Priority is in SR4, one way or the other.

argumentum ad verecundiam

Applied erroneously.

Only because you're misapplying it. He's not saying the guy is *right* because of authority, he's saying he's relevant because of authority.

The rules in RC don't actually say that Edge and Magic/Resonance fall under the same half-Karma cap as the rest of the attributes. Not sure why they would, since they don't in BP build.

Yeah, that never made sense. Every time someone mentions fixes (like here), you notice they include that one.

That's what we did during character creation. Afterward during actual play, the costs to raise an attribute or skill were based on their current values. So the couple of metahumans my players had did pay a bit more in setting up attributes during CC but actual during game play paid to advance stats as per the book. Raising an attribute from 1 to 2 cost 10 Karma and so forth.

Hey, here's a thought. Instead of arguing about builds, why don't we post some? I have zero experience with karmagen, so to me this entire thing looks like a he-said/she-said.

Trust me, you don't want the can-of-worms of a flame war that will come of that.

Okay, here's a 1K karma character I made this morning, just to fool around with the system:

Soylent (Ork Sasobonsam Adept)
B 10, A 5, R 4/5, S 9, C 3, I 4, L 3, W 6, E 4, Ess 4.1, M 4, Init 8/9, IP 1/2
Condition Monitor boxes (Physical/Stun): 13/11
Disposable Commlink Condition Monitor: 9
Hermes Ikon Commlink Condition Monitor: 10
Armor (Ballistic/Impact): 21/21

Skills: Assensing 3, Astral Combat 4, Athletics Group 3, Blades 9 (Knives +2), Etiquette 2, First Aid 2 (Combat Wounds +2), Hardware 2 (Maglocks +2), Intimidation 3 (Physical +2), Locksmith 2, Navigation 4 (Urban +2), Perception 3, Pilot Ground Craft 1 (Bike +2), Pistols 3 (Hold-Outs +2), Stealth Group 4

Die pools: Assensing 7, Astral Combat 10, Athletics Group [Climbing 12, Gymnastics 8, Running 12, Swimming 12], Blades 14 (Knives +2), Etiquette 5, First Aid 5 (Combat Wounds +2, +4 from gear)), Hardware 5 (Maglocks +2, +3 from gear), Intimidation 6 (Physical +2), Locksmith 7 (+3 from gear), Navigation 8 (Urban +2), Perception 7 (Visual +3, Hearing +3, Smell +3 ... from implants, Gear, and powers), Pilot Ground Craft 6 (Bike +2), Pistols 8 (Hold-Outs +2), Stealth Group [Disguise 8, Infiltration 10, Palming 9, Shadowing 8]

Knowledge Skills: Anatomy 2 (Metahuman +2), Cooking 1, English N, Japanese 3 (Cityspeak +2), Or'Zet N, Seattle Area 3 (Underground +2), Urban Brawl 2

Critter Powers: Allergy, Mild: Sunlight, Dietary Requirement: Metahuman Flesh, Dual Natured, Enhanced Senses: Hearing, Enhanced Senses: Low-Light Vision, Enhanced Senses: Smell, Reduced Senses: Blind

Qualities: Adept, Albinism, Bilingual, In Debt (Borrowed 10000¥, Owes 15000¥) (2), Infertile Infected, Mania/Phobia, Common (Mild): Gambling, Ninjitsu (2), The Athlete's Way: Gliding, Wall Running

Adept Powers: Combat Sense (3), Gliding (4 meters), Improved Ability (2): Blades, Wall Running (12dicepool)

Cyberware:
. . Cybereyes (2) with Eye Recording Unit, Flare Compensation, Image Link, Protective Covers, Thermographic Vision, Vision Enhancement (3)
. . Ultrasound Sensor
Bioware:
. . Reflex Recorder: Blades
. . Synaptic Booster (1)

Gear:
. . AR Gloves
. . Archimedes Pike (working ID) with DocWagon Basic Contract, Fake SIN (4), Advanced Lifestyle
. . . . (Comforts=Low, Entertainment=Squatter, Necessities=Middle, Neighborhood=Squatter, Security=Middle; Green Plan, Haunted,
. . . . [i]Network Bottleneck, Rough Neighborhood, Trigger-Happy Landlord, Worse Neighbors, Shielded Saferoom)
. . . . (the saferoom is a custom quality of my own, for +4 points; this character wasn't originally built to share here. I'll gladly share the details if anyone wants.)
. . Autopicker (3)
. . Backpack
. . Body Cavity Escape Kit
. . C-Squared (6) x5
. . Camouflage Suit with Chemical Protection (2), Gel Packs, Insulation (2), Massaging Liners, Nonconductivity (4), Thermal Dampening (4)
. . Disposable Commlink
. . Earbuds (1) with Select Sound Filter (1)
. . Endoscope
. . Entertainment Systems Cyclops
. . Flashlight, Thermographic
. . Freeze Foam (6) x10
. . Glasscutter
. . Greatcoat with Chemical Protection, Gel Packs, Insulation, Nonconductivity (4)
. . Hermes Ikon Commlink with Analyze (6), Browse (2), Command (1), Data Bomb (4), Edit (1), Encrypt (4), Firewall (4), Novatech Navi Operating System, Purge (4)
. . Jacob Othello (Bolt Hole) with – Custom Bolt Hole –, Fake SIN (1)
. . Maglock Sequencer (3)
. . Medkit (4)
. . Medkit Supplies x2
. . Respirator (4) with Microphone (1), Olfactory Sensor (3)
. . SecureTech Forearm Guards
. . SecureTech Leg and Arm Casings
. . SecureTech Shin Guards
. . SecureTech Vitals Protector
. . Sensor Tags x20 with Motion Sensor
. . Sleeping Bag
. . Standard Rope (m) x100
. . Survival Kit
. . Tent
. . Wire Clippers
. . Woodland Camo Netting

Weapons:
. . Morrissey Elan [Pistols, DV 6S(e) vs. ½I, SA, RC 2, 5 ©] with Ceramic/Plasteel Components (Level 3), Electronic Firing, Laser Sight, Personalized Grip, Silencer, Spare Clips, Stick-n-Shock x20
. . . . Die pool: 11
. . Attack of Will (vs. Spirits) [DV 3P vs. I]
. . . . Die pool: 6
. . Cougar Fineblade Knife, Long Blade Weapon Focus (2) [Blades, DV 7P vs. I-1, Reach 1] with Lanyard, Personalized Grip, Weapon Focus (2)
. . . . Die pool: 19

--------------------

Entertainment Systems Cyclops (Entertainment Systems Cyclops)
B 4, Sen 1, Han +3/+5, Fir 3, Pil 2, Rsp 3, Sig 3, Init 5, IP 3
Physical Condition Monitor: 10
Armor (Vehicle): 6 [2]
Skills:
Gear:
. . Additional Fuel Tank
. . Anti-theft System
. . Assembly Time Improvement
. . Morphing License Plate
. . Motorcycle Gyro Stabilization
. . Pilot (2)
. . Smart Tires
. . Spoof Chips
. . Urban Camo Netting
. . Vehicle Tag Eraser

--------------------

Pilot (Pilot)
Fir 2, Pil 2, Rsp 1, Init 3, IP 3
Matrix Condition Monitor: 9
Armor (Matrix): 2
Skills:
Knowledge Skills: English N

Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Shadowrun © 2005-2012 The Topps Company, Inc. All rights reserved. Shadowrun is a registered trademark of The Topps Company, Inc.

I didn't try to min/max, this is just a concept that can't be done with BP at all (way too expensive). In fact, this character would cost 646 BP to make - but in Karma, he's got 1 left "saved for later". And compared to BPgen, yes, I think it's grossly overpowered - by being safely competent in just too darned many areas, while also enjoying the major H2H combat edge that an Ork Ghoul's attributes afford him. Sure, a 19 die pool (with his knife) may not be the best of the best, but it's backed by a solid 7P base damage. And it's "only" a knife, so concealing it isn't super-hard. I also specifically avoided cheesing his armor - he could afford, and wear without encumbrance, FFBA Full Suit on top of his Camo suit, and he has a free hand for a shield if he wanted one.

He'd be fine in a game where everyone was built to the same level - he's got a clear niche/focus, and if everyone starts with 1K Karma there's no especial intraparty imbalance woes.

But compared to 400BP? Way. Over. The. Top.

...

I am currently working on a 1K Karma gnome hacker, and trying my inexpert best to push him as far as I can. I'll get back to you on how over-successful I am with that, if folks like.

That is what a PC should look like. 750 should be for NPC opponents.

Oh, for HeroLab users, I'd be happy to share Soylent's .POR file, on request.

If you're playing a higher-power campaign, A4.

You should not have that character sitting next to a 400BP character in the same game, however. And clearly, that build is way out of bounds for what baseline Shadowrun expects .... because 400BP is that baseline, and Soylent here would cost over 150% of that to build. And if I weren't so enamored of the "parkour adept" theme for him, and didn't elect to make him more of an Infiltrator / "sneaky stabber" rather than a straight up fighter ... I could have made a very fearsome combat adept instead.

Not "higher power", such a character should be the baseline PC, and go up from there when going to "higher power".

Then the problem here is, you are completely out of synch with the core design of Shadowrun 4. Or 3, or 2, or 1, for that matter.

I only ask because that's a pretty unusual modification, darthmord. Screws trolls pretty hard, doesn't it? To avoid having a zero, they're paying a ton of karma… on top of the race cost?

Exactly: we *know* what the baseline is, because it's 400BP. You can change that for your own games, but you can't argue it's not 'the' number.

Actually, here's a different thought entirely: Is it possible to build a 1k-Karma character which spends let's say at least 990 karma and have it come out below 400 BP?

Because if so, that would indicate the system being totally out of line with a baseline of 400 BP.

No. I don't believe it is. I doubt a 1000K character would come out to anything less than 500BP. Even getting close to 500, just a bit above, would probably require some really WIERD tricks - or burning Karma on initiation and tsimilar things, which don't have a BP cost at all.

I don't really believe it's possible to build a 750 Karma character, and have it come out below 400BP.

My best guess would be to try to blow karma on really high stats (because you apply racial modifiers first). Maybe a Bear Shifter.

Okay, let me try this.

Bear shifter: 80k/80bp
40 karma (20 bp) on Exceptional Attribute (Strength)
Raise Strength from 7 up to 13, and Body from 7 up to 12. That's 565 karma right there, but only 110 bp (note the Exceptional Attribute!)
Pay 6 karma to have the 6 bp of Knowledge Skill Points that are free in BP-gen.
Blow another 308 karma on 154 bp worth of Contacts, Money, Positive Qualities, and other 2:1 ratio things of your choice. That's 999/1000 karma spent, and 364 bp. So even a really, really ridiculous edge case like this is less than 10% under the bp cap.

I have been converted from BP to Karmagen. A 400 bp character with 4/3 split on attributes, max cash, and two skills @5 and like seven @4 with one specialization; has fewer points to work with. The identical karmagen character still has 150 points left.

Okay, so it's theoretically possible But wow, is that EVER an edge case.

Allow me to revise my doubt, by specifying "playable character".

Yeah, I mean... not spending any points on skills aside from Knowledge skills seems a little corner.

I HIGHLY Disagree with you on that...

It does however explain his point of view. His "baseline" and "barely functional" characters are in the range that most people consider higher-powered.

All4BigGuns, realize no one is telling you your play style is wrong, just that you are using a different metric to grade your characters than the standard rules do, and that's where the disconnect came from. You can't say "barely functional" and then say that 1000 karma characters are the starting point, when the book specifically calls 1000 karma a level for higher powered games. Causes a bit of mis-communication, as you can see.

No, I would definitely not put free spirits on the list of things that are better with BP. Take the weakest version of karmagen, 750 points with the new rules, and compare -

Under BP, you spend 250 points to be a free spirit, and have 150 points left to build a character.

Under karmagen, you spend 250 karma to be a free spirit, and have 500 karma left to build a character.

Free spirits tend to be dramatically better under karmagen.

I thought we were comparing 750 karma gen to 400 BP?

If we are comparing 1000karma to 400BP, the additional 250 karma can make a big difference.

Pax:
This went back and forth a lot in the past... but I'll explain for you. Look up a chargen spreadsheet which goes by the nickname SECKSY. It gets used by a lot of people for chargen because it's karmagen as it should have been. More or less how I just described it to you.


Yes, the troll would need to buy his cha to 3... before his metatype dropped it back to 1. But that's part of the 'package deal' he saves far more karma on strength and body, than he does on the PENALIZED mental attributes.

The other problem with the original karma was that the humans got dicked over for costs because negative attributes weren't treated as negative attributes. So it cost just as much for a troll to go to 3 cha as a human did. All that stuff about cheaper costs for humans had no meaning because it was really cheaper costs for EVERYONE... and they get a head start to boot! Either the human pays the exact same amount as everyone else to reach a given number, or he gets dicked over because meta's get a head start with a starting minimum attribute which is not accurately reflected in the meta's cost.


Just to give an example... your typical orc. +3BOD, +2STR, -1CHA, -1LOG. You effectively save 15karma per rank on bod, 10 karma per rank on strength. But you end up paying 5 karma more per rank in cha & log. (yes there is a one time cost to offset the penalty, but that's why it's only race cost x1 instead of x2). So effectively the orc pays 20karma for ork... then 20 more karma to raise both log & cha by 1 offsetting his penalty... after that though he's still paying more for log and cha by a small amount, while saving a LOT of karma in comparison for str & bod.

The point of the costs is that humans are actually something you want to play as well as metas. As it stands now from a numbers standpoint under karma there is no reason to ever play a human except RP. There is nothing but mechanical disadvantages.

Well, there's the Edge bonus.

toturi: The topic of the thread is that guy saying that we should go up to 1,000 Karma with an attribute cap of 625. We're all trying to point out why that's stupid aside to one guy defending it, who has been accused of being a sock puppet.

For the record, if that's referring to my comment, I was definitely kidding when making the sock puppet accusation...no offense meant to All4BigGuns...

But All4BigGuns, you gotta admit, seeing someone with a single-digit post count that joined the day of this thread starting, it looked kinda suspicious

He's a regular on JackPoint.

So he is. My apologies, All4; I didn't pick up on the sarcasm and didn't have the JP context.

In other news, your timing was hilariously bad, though of course that's no fault of yours.

No way, that is the best thing about the Karma system, that you actually have to pay for what you get.

The only rules that are needed in addition to the current version (i.e. Attributes costing x5, Metatype costing K=BP), are...

- Special Attributes are NOT paid from the pool for Physical/Mental Attributes
- Free Knowledge Skill Ranks equal to 3*(Int+Log)

And free points for Contacts equal to 3*Cha (but that is optional, as it isn't part of the BP system either).

Bye
Thanee

No, it really doesn't do that, either. BP does that better than Karma, once you bring Metahumans into it.

Let's say I want to make an Ork. I apply the Metatype, and ... well look at that, for 0 Karma, I've got Body 4. Now, what if I'm satisfied with that ...? Then hey, Bod4 for free, what a bonus that is for me, eh? And Strength ... I might not care about Strength much, so let's leave it at .... 3. Not 1 like a Human, no, it starts at 3. For 0 Karma.

Wait. What happened to "you actually have to pay for what you get" ...?

That's been fixed in the latest errata where Metatype cost is now taken into account (which has always been the case in the German and French versions).

Fixed? Not really. Orks get 75 Karma worth of attributes, for only 20 Karma.