Dumpshock Forums > Hopelessly Gimped? (combat-wise)

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 12:39 AM

So I've generally been one to play strikers, tanks, or the occasional healer, offensive finger waggler, or (in SR1 many moons ago) decker/hacker. Got a new game starting tomorrow and the team composition sounds pretty short on social skills and has most of the other roles at least double covered so I figured I'd tune up a con-girl infiltrator I'd worked up 90% of the way a month and a half ago or so.

Looking at her skills and dice pools I'm feeling a bit worried she's going to be relegated almost entirely to face duties when I'd kinda like her to be able to take a slightly more active role when things go sideways. She's still got a bit of work left on her gear and fleshing out her backstory and contacts. The biggest thing I'm worried about at this point is the lack of infiltration and dodge skills and the low dice pool for her offensive abilities, but I'm not really sure where I can free up BP to fix these or if I should.

Any suggestions/advice on the build or how to stop worrying and learn to love talking people to death?

[ Spoiler ]

FuelDrop

Sep 9 2012, 12:59 AM

You have 8 dice in pistols (semi-automatics), which combines with a smartgun system to give you ten DP for shooting stuff.
99% of foes aren't going to be matching your attack dice with their dodge, barring serious penalties dropping your attack. Heck, against most enemies you'll be getting around about double their dice-pool to hit them. As you're only getting 2 shots/turn with your single initiative pass you're going to need to make every hit count: Stick and shock (if allowed at your table) and Capsule rounds are both an excellent way to make the most out of the two bullets you're putting in the air.
I'd recommend keeping a breather or two of Jazz on your person at all times, just in case you get into a fight and need an edge over the opposition, and if you can afford them staying doped up on oxygenated flurocarbons is a good option for any runner.

EDIT: I'm playing a mundane character that's very similar right now. Protip: Gas grenades with (Pepper punch, breathtaker, name your poison), then disguised as perfume bottles can get anywhere. add the Gecko grip option for your smoke grenade (and likewise disguise it) and you'll be able to go to the toilet, stick the grenade somewhere it won't be noticed, walk out, then remote detonate it later if you need a distraction/to turn on the fire alarms.

Also, pick up a couple of micro cameras/mini-mikes and maybe 2 disposable commlinks other than your burn link. use your pickpocket specialization to plant whatever's appropriate on a target, then record his conversations/let him scout for you/record his 24 digit access PIN/be creative.

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 01:24 AM

Thanks for the useful input!

I guess I'm just used to attack pools over 10 or 12 so far. I'd really like to be able to squeeze some type of decent active defense into this build, but the most likely spot for freeing up some BP to me (dropping the Influence group to 3) seems like it might start playing against her raison d' etre.

I'm actually just reworking her infiltration/B&E gear right now. I'll definitely be getting her some sensor RFIDs and a disposable link (her Airware is her legit link, the custom is her keeper black link). Had planned to get some more grenades (was thinking neuro-stun and flash-bangs), do you think Gecko is completely necessary or would some Cleen Tac serve the purpose well enough? I hadn't looked into stick-n-shock rounds previously but will definitely take a look.

Edit: Oooo! Stick-n-shock is pricey, but definitely beats the hell out of Gel rounds for a non-lethal option.

Any thoughts on the likelihood of getting my case-lined false bottom briefcase through your average corp security checkpoint w/ my broken down Savelette and ammo and a few grenades in vacuum seal or do you think this would require a social engineering approach?

FuelDrop

Sep 9 2012, 01:53 AM

Cleen Tac should do the job most of the time... I just grabbed Gecko on mine because it seemed like a good idea at the time.
As to shooting pools being over 10-12... If it's not your specialty then 12 DP is enough to reliably hit most targets. I'd suggest that when you have the karma to spare you pick up automatics (assault rifles) 1 and grab an AK with smartgun, gas-vent 3, foregrip and a shock pad as your 'Prepping for a fight' weapon. SnS rounds only really need one hit to have an effect most of the time, so the ability to put out two wide short bursts (IE making it harder to dodge) without recoil is generally good enough.

Jazz and Cram are both great fall-back drugs, and if you're fine with the side effects then speedballing them will put you up to 3 IP for a short time... not something you want to make a habit of, but if it's a fight-or-lose situation then having the option open is not something you'll regret. My character doesn't as she's got synaptic boosters as a genetic enhancement, signed off by the GM. However, she does use 'Nopaint'. some other toys you'll want to pick up are: C-Squared disguised as a perfume container, Chemical cosmetics (Various), Slap patches loaded with pixie dust and laes cigarettes.

Less essential but still worth looking into: Slap patch full of party drug of choice (have it in your hand when you touch someone, and if you're even moderately lucky then within a few minutes you'll have a distraction. Use K-10 if you're after a bit more certainty, but it lacks style). Tranc patch at high rating (for when you need to clear the way for your buddies and don't want a trail of bodies). High end acid (for getting past any doors that refuse to be picked, deposing of inconvenient evidence, or as an improvised weapon).

Since you've already got pistols, consider grabbing a tazer with a laser sight. 100% legal, highly effective, and owning it won't raise any eyebrows at any but the highest security facilities (Pulling it out, on the other hand, may attract some attention). DP 7 might not sound like much, but it's better than nothing by a long way.

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 02:13 AM

I think she's actually got the ability to lay down a couple short bursts per round w/o recoil w/ her Savelette Guardian (GV3, electronic firing and personalized grip), albeit at shorter range, lower DV, and w/ a more frequent need to reload, but I'm definitely planning on picking up Automatics at some point in her future for either AR or SMG use.

I've got no philosophical issues w/ her speedballing personally but the crash seems like a pretty serious downer and I get the feeling the GM will wind up smacking me pretty hard w/ addiction checks. Still makes sense as an insurance policy like you mentioned for use only when things are looking really bad.

I like the party drug slap patches (K-10 would be awesome, seems like it could have some pretty hilarious but unpredictable, and potentially disastrous consequences) and had planned to add some tranq patches at some point along the line and spaced them.

Taser is going on the list as well.

Udoshi

Sep 9 2012, 02:23 AM

For combat effectiveness, don't neglect the humble Flash-pack, or an offensive iball. Its a pretty harsh penalty.

Since you didn't distinguish between Positive and Negative qualities, I'm not sure how close you are to the limits or how many points you've spent on what, so some of this may not be advice you can use - especially since you're not keeping track of Way powerpoint discounts either.
Look at the Trustworthy and First Impression qualities. Surprised you don't have FI at least.

I would drop Facial Sculpt by one level. You can get that extra die on disguise back pretty easily, and you only need one level. 0.25 free.
Improved ability: etiquette isn't needed with 18 dice in it. Get rid of it. 0.25 more points free.
From there you have two options: Attribute Boost: Agility will help with both infiltration and shooting, and only costs you a simple action for the combat. That costs 0.25. Reaction boost also helps you not die. One point in boost lets you roll Magic+Boost, so you will get anywhere from 0 to 7 agility for the cost of one drain, which you can easily soak up.
Nimble Fingers is worth considering - +1 to palming and pickpocketing is nice, but the winner is in Reloading as Free Actions.
This lets you use bigger guns with smaller clips, so you pack more punch per shot. A ruger warhawk with ex-ex is 7p ap-3. Its worth considering.

The alternative is Rush, an adept power from War! It does cost 0.5 points, so you would need to free that up. It lets you get +1 passes at the cost of some physical drain at the end of the pass. With 2 passes, it would be four, resisted with 7 dice(body+will). unlike other initiative increasing things, this one stacks with other sources, and can be great if you need to pop drugs in a super emergency situation.

There is also the brute force approach. Drop Cool Resolve entirely(or reduce improved con somewhat), in addition to the reduced facial sculpt and improved etiquette.
That frees up 1 power point. Use that to get a point of Ware. Restricted gear for Muscle Toner 4. This nets you an agility of 7, and handily solves your shooting and infiltration problems at once. Toner 2 and tailored pheromones are good too. If you don't want to leave pheromones everywhere, the Enhanced Pheromone receptors(augmentation) gives social bonuses, and an olfactory booster(core book) can edit out the penalties. easy on the essence/cash too.

Reduce improved con, what?
Remember that language skills limit Social Skill Dice. Your Con 4(6) is going to get gimped down to 4 if you have to negotiate in japanese. Datajacks are nice for linguasoft 5's

Edit: Personally, in your situation, I would drop facial sculpt by 1, get rid of improved etiquette, and reduce some combination of cool resolve/improved con. Grab Attribute Boost: Agi, Nimble Fingers(it makes stealth slap patching as free actions rather funny), and Rush. If you get in combat in a bad way, Boost(simple), Rush(free), and Fire(simple) once. Find room for a quickdraw holster; they're cheap and threshold 2 is doable.
I would probably also try to find room for a Mentor Spirit. There are quite a few good ones for adepts. Cat helps with infiltration, Dragonslayer can help with con and fits in with your sense of justice. You can make up the loss of Improved Con in other ways.

FuelDrop

Sep 9 2012, 02:34 AM

Defiance EX Shocker is your friend. High damage, and can be used in Melee to boot.

Pixie dust slap patches may look like weak sauce compared to other Laes products, but I'd say that for a face it's one of the best things in the world: It only erases a tiny bit of memory (no more than half an hour iirc) and unlike every other Laes out there doesn't knock the target out. This means that if you FUBAR a con but sneak the slap patch on then you've effectively hit a reset button, and if you're clever about it then you can make it look like your target had an accident and you're helping them back to their feet or something (which can be used to explain away both lost memory and make you look like their friend. Win-Win). Of course this will only work with one or maybe 2 people being involved enough to hear and care about what's being said, so it isn't an 'I win' button if you piss off a gang or the like.

Oh, and forgot one crucial piece of advice: always carry one clip of capsule rounds filled with KE IV, just in case an insect spirit rears its ugly head. Be prepared, you know?

Udoshi

Sep 9 2012, 02:35 AM

Which book is pixie dust in, anyway?

FuelDrop

Sep 9 2012, 02:38 AM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Sep 9 2012, 10:35 AM)

Which book is pixie dust in, anyway?

Arsenal

EDIT: i was wrong, the memory loss is only 1d6 minutes... which is even better for overcoming a single social gaff or the like.

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 03:31 AM

Udoshi:

Wow, lots of good build suggestions.

Unfortunately the text only sheet from Chummer doesn't include the power point discounts or quality details. I've currently got the Speaker's Way discounts on Improved Con and Kinesics and I'm maxed on negative qualities (Mild Media Junkie, Day Job, Thrill Seeker, Sensitive System, and SINner) w/ 20 points of positives (Adept, The Speaker's Way, and Privileged Family Name).

I was initially building this character around a totally non-violent (maybe a little overly ambitious given my proclivity for action as a player) impersonation infiltration approach w/ the Master of 1000 Faces power. It seems like it would be pretty powerful both from an impersonation and keeping a low profile perspective, but I'm not really sure if it winds up being worth so many of her power points.

You've got me contemplating trimming some of the influence and disguise power points in favor of physical/combat ones. Unless I rework my negative qualities, I think I'm going to need to forgo any essence impacting cyber/bioware though. I'm definitely going to take a look at reworking the power points a bit and checking her out w/ push and improved agility/agility boost and maybe taking con, negotiate, and etiquette a la carte to see if I can free up some space for infiltrate and/or dodge. How big of deal do you think losing leadership altogether would be? Really the only reason I went for the full skill group was to use commanding voice (it sounded nifty).

FuelDrop:
Pixie Patch sounds absolutely awesome. I can't decide if Chummer is building these correctly though. I started w/ a Slap Patch and added a dose of DMSO and a dose of Pixie Dust. Should the correct pricing be ¥51 a piece?

FuelDrop

Sep 9 2012, 03:42 AM

QUOTE (Sid Nitzerglobin @ Sep 9 2012, 11:31 AM)

FuelDrop:
Pixie Patch sounds absolutely awesome. I can't decide if Chummer is building these correctly though. I started w/ a Slap Patch and added a dose of DMSO and a dose of Pixie Dust. Should the correct pricing be ¥51 a piece?

As I understand it slap patches include DMSO built into the patch itself. so it should be 41

per unit.

but i could be wrong.

_Pax._

Sep 9 2012, 03:49 AM

Just a quick heads-up?

I don't know why, but Chummer is printing all yoru die pools for weapons 2 points higher than it should. For example, "Automatics" shows 0 ranks of skill, but a die pool of 4 ... on an Agility of 3. That should be a DP of 2. Or have I missed something somewhere?

Another point, I don't see any Smartlink vision mods. Smartguns require them to work.

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 03:50 AM

QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 8 2012, 10:42 PM)

As I understand it slap patches include DMSO built into the patch itself. so it should be 41

per unit.

but i could be wrong.

OK, cool. DMSO built into the patch makes sense, I'll check to make sure.

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 03:53 AM

QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Sep 8 2012, 10:49 PM)

Just a quick heads-up?

I don't know why, but Chummer is printing all yoru die pools for weapons 2 points higher than it should. For example, "Automatics" shows 0 ranks of skill, but a die pool of 4 ... on an Agility of 3. That should be a DP of 2. Or have I missed something somewhere?

Another point, I don't see any Smartlink vision mods. Smartguns require them to work.

It's the Smartlink bonus. Until the most recent version Chummer displays it on the skills for all firearms if you've got one installed on any of your weapons. I need to go in and uncheck the box for displaying the bonus in the skills section. I only have it on so I had an easy one stop shop for the dice pool for the weapons I actually own and use (all which are smartlinked

)

She's got the Smartlink built into her monocle.

Glyph

Sep 9 2012, 03:55 AM

I would re-think being a dryad. Glamour is great for adding to your social dice pools, but radiating an unearthly presence completely undermines all of the resources you have invested towards disguise and impersonation.

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 04:02 AM

QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 8 2012, 10:55 PM)

I would re-think being a dryad. Glamour is great for adding to your social dice pools, but radiating an unearthly presence completely undermines all of the resources you have invested towards disguise and impersonation.

How tough should that assening test wind up being and what specific negative does that carry outside of meta/magic hating settings? I was kind of assuming that there might be some magically active signature thrown out from her aura, but wouldn't she kind of be throwing some of that off anyways by virtue of her adapt powers? I hadn't noticed any mention of specific penalties in any of the descriptions.

Udoshi

Sep 9 2012, 04:03 AM

QUOTE (Sid Nitzerglobin @ Sep 8 2012, 08:31 PM)

Udoshi:

Wow, lots of good build suggestions.

I was initially building this character around a totally non-violent (maybe a little overly ambitious given my proclivity for action as a player) impersonation infiltration approach w/ the Master of 1000 Faces power. It seems like it would be pretty powerful both from an impersonation and keeping a low profile perspective, but I'm not really sure if it winds up being worth so many of her power points. You've definitely got me contemplating trimming some of the influence and disguise power points in favor of physical/combat ones.

Unless I rework my negative qualities, I think I'm going to need to forgo any essence impacting cyber/bioware though. I'm definitely going to take a look at reworking the power points a bit and checking her out w/ push and improved agility/agility boost and maybe taking con, negotiate, and etiquette a la carte to see if I can free up some space for infiltrate and/or dodge.

Thank you!

Disguise is fantastic. My most succesful runner was part of a non-lethal only team who pretty much embraced the fact that non-lethal options are actually pretty good fight enders compared to loadsabullets. They enjoyed a nice rep for being low-impact while still being high-skill.
And one of the star players on the team was just such an infiltration adept. He was able to impersonate pretty much ANYONE, get close, and let the rest of the team drop the hammer and put the plan into play. Tasers, gas, chemicals, explosives for distractions, hacking for diversions, etc all work great.

I would urge you not to drop that core concept. Its hella fun, and your team will LOVE you for your Negotiation tests for more pay.
One of our houserules that you might want to ask your GM about using for your game: Replace the Leadership skill in the Influence group with Intimidation. It makes so much more sense/is more useful that way, since intimidation is resisted with intimidation.

But just because you're playing a face, though, doesn't mean you have to have two agility and one pass. A little bit of fightyness for when the shit hits the fan is a good idea. If a negotiation goes bad, you're the first to get shot. (I'd probably aim for two passes, 5-6 agility and some bonuses, maybe with an autoinjector for ALL THE PASSES if things go really bad)

Regarding Cyberware: I noticed you have good hacking programs. If you want to get ware, but can't afford it at character creation, just take a datajack with a skinlink accessory for the essence hit - its super cheap, means you won't lose magic later, and let's you upgrade to ware you actually want in play. (I DO know a trick for getting loads of starting cash for this purpose, but I don't want to derail the thread because some people find it cheezy. It is)

Also, never use Improved Agility. Its not worth it. It's just not. Attribute boost is so much better in every way. .75 points or 1.5 to go past augmax is better spent on prettymuch anything else.

In terms of freeing up points, Dryads are 45. Elves are 30. You have 15 points of qualities left.
Manual surging instead of using the Metavariant should free up some extra points. Keep in mind that once you have surge, you can take metagenetic qualities over the surge-class-freebie-points against the limit.(changling qualities, runner's companion 73)
Thus:
Elf: +15
Surge 1: -5bp. +10 positive genetic for -5 negative genetic.
add Glamour. Normally 15, 10 is soaked up by Surge class I, an you pay the difference. -5
Add a fitting 5bp surge negative quality.
End result: +5 points. that's 25000Y in money, if you want ware. Cuts 5bp more into quality limits

Edit: Or you could surge ii instead.
Elf: +15.
Surge 2: -10 (20-for-10)
Glamour
5bp positive genetic here. Nasty Vibe for the intimidation bonus is a no-brainer
Symbiosis or 10bp negative metagenetic
End Result: +5bp, but it cuts 10 points into quality limits.

QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 8 2012, 07:34 PM)

Defiance EX Shocker is your friend. High damage, and can be used in Melee to boot.

Agreed. Clubs(Improvised +2) is so, SO worth it if you ever have to pistolwhip anybody.

Glyph

Sep 9 2012, 04:15 AM

QUOTE (Sid Nitzerglobin @ Sep 8 2012, 09:02 PM)

How tough should that assening test wind up being and what specific negative does that carry outside of meta/magic hating settings? I was kind of assuming that there might be some magically active signature thrown out from her aura, but wouldn't she kind of be throwing some of that off anyways by virtue of her adapt powers? I hadn't noticed any mention of specific penalties in any of the descriptions.

I'm not talking about assensing. I'm talking about the description of the quality - the unearthly grace, radiant countenance, soul-wrenching voice, people describing the character as angelic or fairy like and always responding to the character with awe and deference. Do you honestly think none of that stuff is conspicuous? At the very least, there is the last sentence, which says that the character is particularly memorable and suffers from Distinctive Style. And you can't really turn it off, either.

FuelDrop

Sep 9 2012, 04:16 AM

Just had a thought...

You have distinctive style (from glamour), which means you stand out in a crowd.
so... use this to your advantage. If you go into a place and make a harmless but attention-grabbing scene, then in theory the rest of your team should be able to slip past unnoticed.

after all, every negative quality is a positive quality waiting for someone with the imagination to pull it off.

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 04:17 AM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Sep 8 2012, 11:03 PM)

In terms of freeing up points, Dryads are 45. Elves are 30. You have 15 points of qualities left.
Manual surging instead of using the Metavariant should free up some extra points. Keep in mind that once you have surge, you can take metagenetic qualities over the surge-class-freebie-points against the limit.(changling qualities, runner's companion 73)
Thus:
Elf: +15
Surge 1: -5bp. +10 positive genetic for -5 negative genetic.
add Glamour. Normally 15, 10 is soaked up by Surge class I, an you pay the difference. -5
Add a fitting 5bp surge negative quality.
End result: +5 points.

I was initially trying to take this approach but couldn't get it to work in Chummer. Looks like it's just listed as Changeling. This alone opens up a significant number of of options

I wouldn't mind just retaking Symbiosis for the negative (seems like it would be a cool RP hook), but the BP doesn't fit. Time to find some other suitable genetic mutation I spose

_Pax._

Sep 9 2012, 04:21 AM

QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 9 2012, 12:15 AM)

I'm not talking about assensing. I'm talking about the description of the quality - the unearthly grace, radiant countenance, soul-wrenching voice, people describing the character as angelic or fairy like and always responding to the character with awe and deference. Do you honestly think none of that stuff is conspicuous? At the very least, there is the last sentence, which says that the character is particularly memorable and suffers from Distinctive Style. And you can't really turn it off, either.

Glyph's right on the money, here.

"Glamour" and "Subtle" go together about as well as "Brick" and "Glass Window" .... which is to say this will not end well.

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 04:24 AM

QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 8 2012, 11:15 PM)

I'm not talking about assensing. I'm talking about the description of the quality - the unearthly grace, radiant countenance, soul-wrenching voice, people describing the character as angelic or fairy like and always responding to the character with awe and deference. Do you honestly think none of that stuff is conspicuous? At the very least, there is the last sentence, which says that the character is particularly memorable and suffers from Distinctive Style. And you can't really turn it off, either.

My thought there was that she's also got Nanopaste, Facial Sculpting, Keratin Control, Melanin Control, Voice Control and Master of 1000 Faces. I wasn't feeling particularly concerned that someone was struck w/ her unearthly beauty/grace/whatever since chances are she's going to be a significantly different unearthly charming person for each run (or potentially several per run if necessary). Showing her real face would be a pretty rare occurrence and would never occur while she was doing jobs. (Edit: I do need to make sure to add a few more SINs to her gear and a decent SIN forger as a contact though)

I really like the concept of the dryad from an RP perspective and the mechanical advantage of Glamour does seem very nice. I think I can make the disadvantages work, but I guess we'll see how bad of a challenge it turns out to be.

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 04:30 AM

QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 8 2012, 11:16 PM)

Just had a thought...

You have distinctive style (from glamour), which means you stand out in a crowd.
so... use this to your advantage. If you go into a place and make a harmless but attention-grabbing scene, then in theory the rest of your team should be able to slip past unnoticed.

after all, every negative quality is a positive quality waiting for someone with the imagination to pull it off.

I had actually been planning on using these tactics, in combination w/ the ability to very significantly change her physical appearance in pretty much all aspects.

Sometimes standing out/making a scene is a pretty decent way to manipulate people into doing what you want.

FuelDrop

Sep 9 2012, 04:30 AM

QUOTE (Sid Nitzerglobin @ Sep 9 2012, 12:17 PM)

I was initially trying to take this approach but couldn't get it to work in Chummer. Looks like it's just listed as Changeling. This alone opens up a significant number of of options

I would mind just retaking Symbiosis for the negative (seems like it would be a cool RP hook), but the BP doesn't fit. Time to find some other suitable genetic mutation I spose

Mood hair is always fun for a neg quality, particularly for a face

.
I took it as one of mine and said that it regrows from being cut very quickly and rejects all but the best hair dye within a day or so. It tends to make the character's interactions more memorable, and can be used to tip off your team-mates if something is wrong and you can't say it openly (remember, with fiberoptic hair and the like it's not really that distinctive, and people only get the bonus if they already know you've got it).

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 04:37 AM

QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 8 2012, 11:30 PM)

Mood hair is always fun for a neg quality, particularly for a face

.
I took it as one of mine and said that it regrows from being cut very quickly and rejects all but the best hair dye within a day or so. It tends to make the character's interactions more memorable, and can be used to tip off your team-mates if something is wrong and you can't say it openly (remember, with fiberoptic hair and the like it's not really that distinctive, and people only get the bonus if they already know you've got it).

I was just looking at that one or Extravagant Eyes

I can always pop in some cosmetic contacts or do the temporary dye job when I need to impersonate someone physically (assuming Keratin Control and Master of 1000 Faces don't work).

Udoshi

Sep 9 2012, 04:46 AM

QUOTE (Sid Nitzerglobin @ Sep 8 2012, 09:17 PM)

I was initially trying to take this approach but couldn't get it to work in Chummer. Looks like it's just listed as Changeling. This alone opens up a significant number of of options

I would mind just retaking Symbiosis for the negative (seems like it would be a cool RP hook), but the BP doesn't fit. Time to find some other suitable genetic mutation I spose

I realized that you could do this with surge-2 for the same net gain, and was probably in the middle of editing my post when you replied. Check again!

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 04:55 AM

Yeah, SURGE II works.

Looks like I get Distinctive Style from SURGEing anyways whether I go w/ Glamour or not. The "free" BP feels a little bit munchkin, but I guess I'll take it

Udoshi

Sep 9 2012, 05:15 AM

QUOTE (Sid Nitzerglobin @ Sep 8 2012, 09:55 PM)

Yeah, SURGE II works.

Looks like I get Distinctive Style from SURGEing anyways whether I go w/ Glamour or not. The "free" BP feels a little bit munchkin, but I guess I'll take it

Don't. Metavariants/types are based around an absurd notion of 'rarity tax' where you pay BP for literally nothing but 'ooh, orcs are common, night ones aren't!' and not their ACTUAL capabilities.

This leads to some metavariants that are more literally both more expensive and entirely worse than the base race. it is as dumb as it sounds

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 05:27 AM

OK so here she is at the moment:

[ Spoiler ]

She's about ¥7K in the hole and has 10BP left. Basically axed Commanding Voice and Improved Etiquette, dropped Facial Sculpt and Cool Resolve to 1, added Rush and AGI Boost 2, killed Leadership and reworked the other influence skills, and built her as Dryad manually.

I'm thinking maybe just add Dodge 2 and ¥10K and call it a day from a build perspective, but I might replace Cool Resolve w/ Nimble Fingers too. I'm liking the Leal/Narcojet Slap Patch attack as a free action idea.

I had added the pimped out commlinks and agents/mooks as part of her backstory/initial character concept. The idea being she wanted to be able to dig up dirt on her own for her day job and hopefully add some utility for pre-run recon and maybe be able to grab data during actual runs if she had to. Does this seem feasible (and worth the addtional ~¥20K she's got tied up in this gear/software) w/ her 6 Computer and Data Search and the mooks she's got?

Glyph

Sep 9 2012, 07:07 AM

Con: 4 plus Etiquette: 3 plus Negotiation: 3 = 40 build points. Spend the same amount to get the Influence skill group at rating: 4, instead.

Thanee

Sep 9 2012, 07:39 AM

The easiest (efficient) boost to combat abilitiy is dropping a full point of magic and getting a cyberarm with souped-up Agility (lower is enough, could even be synthetic, leaving a bit for Datajack and some other neat things, like an Attention Coprocessor, or some nice Bioware, Tailored Pheromones and/or Enhanced Pheromone Receptors, for example).

Why do you have three Agents and that hardcore commlink? That seems a little excessive, if the team already has two (?) hackers/technomancers.

Bye
Thanee

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 07:51 AM

QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 9 2012, 02:07 AM)

Con: 4 plus Etiquette: 3 plus Negotiation: 3 = 40 build points. Spend the same amount to get the Influence skill group at rating: 4, instead.

Huh, that's what happens when you make multiple change at once w/o paying attention.

Thanks for the catch!

QUOTE (Thanee @ Sep 9 2012, 02:39 AM)

The easiest (efficient) boost to combat abilitiy is dropping a full point of magic and getting a cyberarm with souped-up Agility (lower is enough, could even be synthetic, leaving a bit for Datajack and some other neat things, like an Attention Coprocessor, or some nice Bioware, Tailored Pheromones and/or Enhanced Pheromone Receptors, for example).

Why do you have three Agents and that hardcore commlink? That seems a little excessive, if the team already has two (?) hackers/technomancers.

Bye
Thanee

I believe we've got a hacker/rigger combo and an investigator w/ "some tech skills". Like I was saying I'm torn on the custom link and the agents, I really want them for the character RP concept, but it is a big chunk of change. Never really tried hacking by mook before either. I might wind up axing them

I'm kind of writing off cyber/bioware for this character as I don't really want to kill any more adept powers or limit her maximum Magic and (for cyberware) I'm not sure what I would replace her Sensitive System negative quality w/ at this point.

Thanks for the input.

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 11:53 AM

Alright I think I'm happy w/ her for now, even found a good mugshot for her. We'll see how she works out.

[ Spoiler ]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and advice!

Stingray

Sep 9 2012, 12:08 PM

QUOTE (Sid Nitzerglobin @ Sep 9 2012, 02:53 PM)

Alright I think I'm happy w/ her for now, even found a good mugshot for her. We'll see how she works out.

[ Spoiler ]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and advice!

..by RAW, Savalette Guardian can not have Gas Vent 3 system
(only machine pistols, SMG's,assault rifles and machine guns).. (BBB 4A pg.322 )
Electronic Firing and Personalized Grip are not cumulative with each other ( Arsenal pg. 148)

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 9 2012, 12:48 PM

QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 9 2012, 07:08 AM)

..by RAW, Savalette Guardian can not have Gas Vent 3 system
(only machine pistols, SMG's,assault rifles and machine guns).. (BBB 4A pg.322 )
Electronic Firing and Personalized Grip are not cumulative with each other ( Arsenal pg. 148)

Think I remember reading that bit at some point, unfortunately Chummer isn't enforcing it.

Think I meant the grip to be Gecko originally, I'll go back and swap 'em.

Thanks!

Xenefungus

Sep 9 2012, 08:01 PM

QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Sep 9 2012, 06:16 AM)

Just had a thought...

You have distinctive style (from glamour), which means you stand out in a crowd.
so... use this to your advantage. If you go into a place and make a harmless but attention-grabbing scene, then in theory the rest of your team should be able to slip past unnoticed.

There's an App^W Adept Power for that (Enthralling Performance).

Udoshi

Sep 9 2012, 08:37 PM

Drop your agility boost to level 1! Two points gives you twice the drain for only one die of possible stats. Not worth it! Use it to pick up a different attribute boost, like Reaction! Keep in mind that as an Adept, you resist drain with Body(3)+Will(4), for 7 dice. If you're getting ware, just get a Trauma Damper and never worry about it again!

You may want to explore Gymnastics for survivability. Dodge(ranged +2) is only useful on a full defense, so why not Gymnastics(gymdodge+2) instead? If you really wanted, adept improved skill is half off on gymnastics(physical skill) compared to dodge(more expensive as a combat skills). You really only want dodge if you're driving, because that's what's used in cars, and i noticed you didn't have any Piloting skills.

Alright! Gear's up next!

I'd see if you can fit the cash in for a Cyberware scanner 6 and a Datasoft 6 for RFID tags. Cyberware scanners are able to find stuff in their database, which is why you have the datasoft to expand that purpose. It's fairly cheap.

Can you really take a CyberSafety if it doesn't have an essence cost, only capacity?

Tag erasers aren't much good if you can't FIND tags, after all. Especially in large objects.

I gotta say, I'm not a fan of the savalette guardian. Burst Fire as a Complex is undesirable. If you're boosting, you want simple actions to fire. I'd say use Automatics instead, but you want taser capabilities. For the price, why not the ruger thunderbolt?
You probably want to put Melee Hardening on your Defiance Ex Shocker, as well as a Small Firing Selection Change to make it SA instead of SS.

You should probably grab Skinlink adaptors for critical pieces of PAN gear, and skinlink your trodes. Even if you're not using nanotrodes, a regular set is nice to have on hand.

If you plan on Agent-hacking, you probably want to give them an Electronic Warfare autosoft. If you're worried about security, a commlink mod for Optimized(firewall) is nice.

Iduno

Sep 9 2012, 10:32 PM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Sep 9 2012, 03:37 PM)

If you plan on Agent-hacking, you probably want to give them an Electronic Warfare autosoft. If you're worried about security, a commlink mod for Optimized(firewall) is nice.

Optimized is for programs. I think Firewall is considered an attribute instead, but I can't find anything that says either way.

FuelDrop

Sep 9 2012, 11:56 PM

@Udoshi: the problem with the thunderbolt is that it can only fire narrow bursts. the executive action light pistol lacks a bit of punch but makes up for it with rate of fire.

UmaroVI

Sep 10 2012, 12:06 AM

The Fichetti is worse than the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki for most characters; unless you have a way to get a significant amount of RC on it (like a cyberarm gyromount), the ability to fire wide bursts is cancelled out by the recoil penalties.

Udoshi

Sep 10 2012, 12:19 AM

QUOTE (Iduno @ Sep 9 2012, 04:32 PM)

Optimized is for programs. I think Firewall is considered an attribute instead, but I can't find anything that says either way.

It is BOTH AT ONCE, actually. Holy Shit.

QUOTE

Q:Does the maximum program rating limited by the System rating apply to Firewall?
A:No; System does not limit the ratings of Firewall since it is a Matrix Attribute. Agents, Common Use, Hacking, and all other types of programs running on the device are limited by the System rating.

Q: Can System or Firewall be encrypted?
A: As programs, they may be encrypted when stored. They may not be encrypted while they are running.

The major implications here are that you can turn off a firewall, though. But yeah. A firewall is BOTH a Matrix Attribute AND a Program simultaneously.

Sid Nitzerglobin

Sep 10 2012, 03:53 AM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Sep 9 2012, 03:37 PM)

Drop your agility boost to level 1! Two points gives you twice the drain for only one die of possible stats. Not worth it! Use it to pick up a different attribute boost, like Reaction! Keep in mind that as an Adept, you resist drain with Body(3)+Will(4), for 7 dice. If you're getting ware, just get a Trauma Damper and never worry about it again!

You may want to explore Gymnastics for survivability. Dodge(ranged +2) is only useful on a full defense, so why not Gymnastics(gymdodge+2) instead? If you really wanted, adept improved skill is half off on gymnastics(physical skill) compared to dodge(more expensive as a combat skills). You really only want dodge if you're driving, because that's what's used in cars, and i noticed you didn't have any Piloting skills.

She's pretty much locked at this point but I'll see if the GM would let me change them since I really didn't use anything but the social skills, a few disguise checks, and a buttload of datasearch rolls at the table tonight. Reaction does seem like it would be good as a secondary boost.

I was actually on the fence w/ Gymnastics vs. Dodge. I went w/ Dodge just based on the impression that I would actually wind up w/ a higher active defense dice pool w/ it vs. Gymnastics even though Gymnastics seems to have more utility.

I'm thinking I'm going to want to pump BOD and WIL a bit pretty early on.

QUOTE

Alright! Gear's up next!

I'd see if you can fit the cash in for a Cyberware scanner 6 and a Datasoft 6 for RFID tags. Cyberware scanners are able to find stuff in their database, which is why you have the datasoft to expand that purpose. It's fairly cheap.

Can you really take a CyberSafety if it doesn't have an essence cost, only capacity?

Tag erasers aren't much good if you can't FIND tags, after all. Especially in large objects.

...

You should probably grab Skinlink adaptors for critical pieces of PAN gear, and skinlink your trodes. Even if you're not using nanotrodes, a regular set is nice to have on hand.

I was kind of relying on her current handheld sensor w/ MAD, non-linear junction, and wireless detectors for most of her detection needs, granted I think the MAD and NLJ require pretty close range. Seemed like the NLJ was the best option I had for detecting RFIDs. I would definitely like to add another handheld (or 2) w/ chem (and cyber if you think I need it specifically) and maybe radar and thermo in the near future as the cash rolls in. A camera burner/neutralizer seems like it could be pretty useful in some situations as well.

Is there a reason I shouldn't be able to take Cyber Safety for 0 Essence? I took the second Cyber Safety specifically for connection to my custom commlink. I was reading the rules on it as if it somewhat duplicated the functions of skinlink for your smartlinked weapons. If I didn't have an aversion to cyber on this character, she definitely would want skinlink for the rest of her PAN, but I think she might just to have to live w/ trying to secure the wireless communications between the other nodes as best she can.

QUOTE

I gotta say, I'm not a fan of the savalette guardian. Burst Fire as a Complex is undesirable. If you're boosting, you want simple actions to fire. I'd say use Automatics instead, but you want taser capabilities. For the price, why not the ruger thunderbolt?
You probably want to put Melee Hardening on your Defiance Ex Shocker, as well as a Small Firing Selection Change to make it SA instead of SS.

I was on the fence w/ Automatics as well. The thinking behind the initial pistols choice was probably equal parts BP conservation and RP/concept thing. I really wanted access to a highly concealable and MAD invisible firearm that she could maybe hit something w/ at creation and the Elan seemed like pretty much the only thing available that fit the bill. I will admit to a large degree of fashion victimhood in my preference of the Guardian over the Thunderbolt as far as a burst capable heavy pistol goes

. I'm not sure how much I'll wind up using SA w/ this character, but it seemed a little more mod efficient as well as I probably would have wound up adding SA to the Ruger. I hadn't even caught the SS fire mode on the taser and wasn't thinking of the melee application of it. I'll plan to add those when I have the cash flow.

QUOTE

If you plan on Agent-hacking, you probably want to give them an Electronic Warfare autosoft. If you're worried about security, a commlink mod for Optimized(firewall) is nice.

I wound up sacrificing the agents for the chemical/toxin slap patches, grenades, and disguised cosmetics and the extra clothing/armor set. Probably a good thing for the overall dynamic at the table TBH, I already felt like I was kinda taking up alot of the space for the newbish hacker/rigger technomancer w/ all my requests for datasearch, analyze, and decrypt rolls w/o them. I'm honestly not sure whether suggesting actions for his character or buying up the software/skills to do them myself would be more diplomatic.

In the end, she definitely feels extremely versatile for this game. She didn't wind up in any combat tonight though, so survivability and damage output potential wasn't tested. About the only skill that she doesn't have that I missed was infiltration/stealth.