I'm building a character for an upcoming game, and I need some help. She's from Salt Lake City, a runaway who came to Seattle; I need to know what corps have significant presence in SLC but little or none in the Pacific Northwest (for her parents' employer) & more about SLC in the sixth world. I've read the SoNA blurb, but I don't have access to NAN1 or Twilight Horizon.

Rio Tinto (mining and metallurgy) has a decent presence, Huntsman (Chemical) is a Fortune 500 headquartered here, but a lot of our really big name companies are gonna be in Washington too because they're computer companies: Adobe, Novell, Oracle, and Electronic Arts just as some examples.

Do you have an idea as to what type of company they would work for? If so, I could probably dig up an example of a large local company.

As for what it's like in the 6th World, take every single stereotype you can about Mormons and crank it up about 10 notches. Add in a dash of a siege mentality from being the only bastion of "white" in a sea of NAN. Thankfully they dialed back (at least I felt) the isolationist zealot mentality in Twilight Horizon, making it seem a lot more like a generally conservative city than a Northern Idaho (or Texan, if that's your flavor) extremist compound. AFIK polygamy is still banned in SLC in the 6th world (which makes sense since the Mormon Church hasn't condoned it in well over 100 years).

Having an allergy to pollution wouldn't be odd for her, either. Our winter "inversions" here give us air quality levels that rival Mexico City's in the current time, I can scarcely imagine how bad they are in a cyberpunk universe.

@Neko: Haven't read the TH stuff on SLC, all I remember is stuff from SoNA. Have they dropped the "Guns are only in the hands of the cops" line? I remember reading that bit and having a serious "WTF?" moment.

edit: I'd be tremendously surprised if SK or the Azzies haven't gotten their hands on both Rio Tinto and/or Huntsman. Unless the breakup of the US happened first, and then the NANs would have told both of them to take a long hike off of a short pier. Could go either way.

NAN 1: No megacorp presence is mentioned.

Twilight Horizon: Renraku has an unnamed and unrecognisable software programming subsidiary that reverse-engineers Horizon products. Horizon also has a moderate presence there.

General things to keep in mind:
- Salt Lake City is a self-governing entity run by a council of elders put in place by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which effectively runs the state as a theocracy. Ute nation recognised Mormons as a tribe in all but name, and I found nothing contradicting that after Ute's absorbtion into the PCC.
- SLC has a high level of education and is one of the wealthiest cities in the Ute.
- Mainstream Mormonism has adopted the FLDS stance on polygamy again. This obviously creates a demographical problem, though the books omit that fact (and is a very good reason for a young woman to run away really fast, really far).
- SLC society is as nonviolent as possible, banning all kinds of public cussing, "lewdness" and of course obvious cybernetics and weapons. Offenders will be escorted out of the city by local cops or tried according to Mormon customs. Violent offenders are turned over to Ute (Peblo, presumably) authorities. Violence is met by one of a number of CRTs or Ute/PCC military.
- SLC opts out of NAN tribe/racemongering and welcomes anyone, so long as they play by their rules. This seems to imply mainstream Mormonism did NOT roll back their 1978 decision on race.
- I have found literally nothing on Mormons' attitude towards magic, though given they "generally follow Ute laws and customs", I presume they have accepted magic as part of life somehow.

SoNA states that the SLC sprawl is "tainted ground" due to centuries of Mormon occupation - the entire city is one big mana ebb. One non-canon source I found said it was actually aspected against non-Mormon magic; that would make sense too.

Indeed, that makes sense. That's in SoNA? Didn't check that book, because I have no PDF of it, but I had something like that in the back of my head. Still, I doubt Mormons get away with witch hunts in the NAN. Of course, whether they operate missions in the NAN, or in NAN reservations, is sommething that might deserve some writing. As is the massive demographic problem polygamy creates.

I haven't read SoNA (which I should), but that sounds really strange that it would be a mana ebb. I did read NAN1 about a year ago, so I'm probably mistaken on the polygamy thing, although it's actually pretty strange. If you were to extrapolate it off of real Mormon ideals, it'd probably be something more akin to a communistic (note the little "C") style of government led by Church leaders (I can't remember who exactly would be in charge, I'll ask my uber-knowledgeble friend about it a bit later today). The rest of what Hermit says is true though, silly as that may be comparing SLC and Mormonism from 20 years ago to today. Except the race thing, we're all pretty cool about that.

It is, unless SLC is a main buyer in smuggled SINless women or rounds up and 'converts' SINless women at gunpoint by the truckload to marry them off or something. Demographics make sure polygamy never quite works out in stable societies. Probably a throwaway because Shadowrun tends to work clichés really hard, and not exactly thought through.

Mana Ebb makes a certain sense, or rather aspected ground, given the one-sided religious dominance of SLC, which is what generates aspected nature in SR's magic system.

Also, a theocracy is a theocracy, and unlike, say, Iran, SLC's government doesn't even pretend to be elected.

Also, the book states that it's hard for non-Mormons to find jobs in SLC, which I forgot to mention above, so the place has a certain subtle religious discrimination going.

mormon polygamy as it was actually practised back in the day is not terribly similar to the mormon fundamentalist groups that practise polygamy today.

for one thing, not every man had multiple wives. the wives were supposed to each live in a separate house, and at the time it was mostly used in situations where a woman needed a man to support her (which is not generally the case any more, but was certainly considered important back in the 1800s). also, it was assigned to a man to have multiple wives (again, usually to provide support to women who had no men to do the heavy labour, which was considered a necessity at the time); the man didn't get to choose (though of course, as with any organization, there were likely some who abused their authority).

i would have to agree that it seems weird that they would have polygamy restarted officially. certainly, there are offshoots of the LDS church that practise it, but the main church hasn't practised it for well over a hundred years right now... and in the mainstream church at least, there isn't really any pressure to ever bring it back. when it's discussed, it's generally in the sense of "here's what happened in church history", and frankly even that doesn't come up terribly often.

also, i could see either a mana ebb or an aspected area, depending. we do believe in miracles... the problem with magic is that frankly, if you really look at it, it's hard to mistake it for performing miracles. the individual is obviously the source of power for several reasons (they make the choices without needing input from God, it isn't based on righteousness or authority granted from God, they will only be able to perform the few specific spells they know, they suffer drain, etc).

on the other hand, apparently many other christian groups have managed to somehow mistakenly perceive magic as miracles in the sixth world.

if i was going to try to design a "mormon" tradition of magic, it would probably not use spirits very much, would have a strong bias against the use of mental manipulations, and would have a major vendetta against possession traditions. it would likely have to be viewed as non-miraculous, and simply considered to be a gift from God in the same sense that a person can have a gift for singing or chemistry or any other thing. if that was the case (and in the sixth world, i see it as being fairly necessary to survive), i could certainly see the area being aspected against non-mormon magic... in particular aspected against possession spirits and mental manipulations, if that was possible.

That's prettying things up quite a bit. Mormon polygamy was practised, and is by LDS offshoots, much the same way it is practised in hardline Salafite circles and countries - a mix of support given to women (if it is reinstated that DOES tell you things about womens' roles in SR SLC, though) and upgraduiing your marriage with a more desirable, younger wife, who usually leads a rather crappy life displeasing her betters no matter what she does, whereas young men might find themselves hung out to dry and kicked out of the family to go and find their own wives and not compete with the elders for the limited supply of young women. There's a good deal of plot and story threads in this, if you ask me, but it's not exactly pretty.

Mormon magics could just use the Theurg tradition from German books. Summoning would be banned, magic entirely spell centric, and possession magic WORK OF SATAN in caps. Pretty gimped but hey, nobody said being righteous is easy. They couldn't afford the German Catholics' hardline hate on metas and non-christian magical paths though, because they're in the end dependent on the goodwill of a bunch of nonchristian mages and metas.

Also of note: SLC is nearly leveled in The Twilight Horiton by a torrent of red rain summoned by very malicious spirits living in the Mojave who are pissed at Horizon and lash out against random sprawls because of that (don't ask). But it seems it is salvagable.


Not nearly. Vatican theurgs (like the Sylvestrines) stury magic as a hermetic tradition. Generally, in older editions, Christian mages are often defaulted on Hermeticism, with only some defaulting on miracles and possession (though that happens too, and there are plenty of RL Christian frnge sects who are prety close to this).

I really appreciate all the help. Small pet peeve: What you're all referring to as polygamy is more properly a twisted form of polygyny. Polygamy is an umbrella term covering both polygyny & polyandry. Mormon-style polygyny is a serious embarrassment to polyamorous folks like myself :-/

Wow, theocracies are bad for a city's health in Shadowrun. First Tehran, now Salt Lake.

edit: This entire discussion reminds me of reading a thread about people living in São Paulo being unhappy with the write-ups for their home. I don't envy the freelancers, this has to come up with pretty much every city.

Polygamy, by default, is synonymous with polygyny, because culture based in book religions blah blah. That's why you are called polyamourous after all. No offense meant.


Someone's feathers are always ruffled. It helps to remind yourself this is fiction, and that it's mostly western authors will make blunders about places they have little idea of. Harbour city Bogotá, deep in teeming jungle, is a more recent example (look up Bogot'a in Wiki!).

Well, I definitely agree with the whole "aspected domain" thing, that would make a certain amount of sense.

Magic is going to be a huge issue to 6th World Mormonism. Now they believe that all worthy men who have undergone certain rites can use what is referred to as "The Priesthood." Long story short, they believe that anyone ordained with it can invoke God's power (by acting as a conduit for His power) and request certain things (healing the sick, consecrating houses/graves, casting out demons, etc). Most modern Mormons don't really consider these things to be miracles, although most others would. It wouldn't be hard for them to imagine that a Mage was only doing the same thing, but with a bit more agency as to what he can choose to do. Keyword there is "he." Women can't have the Priesthood, so women mages are going to be something they're not quite sure how to deal with. Honestly, I could see the church going a few different ways with it: 1. Ban all magic use (unlikely) 2. Let only men use magic as a manifestation of the Priesthood (50%) 3. Let women be ordained and call magic the Priesthood (very unlikely, they believe women's main power from God manifests as the ability to conceive) 4. Let men and women practice magic under controlled circumstances, being especially wary of summoning, believing it to be a new gift from God independent of the Priesthood. (Most likely based on the church's adoption rate of modern technology and other things)

As far as what is sounded like in the aftermath of the Red Rain, it really seemed to me like they were just hoping for anyone and everyone that could help them, Mormon or not. One thing that was severely glossed over (probably because they didn't know about it) is that the LDS church has an extensive aid network (which is used quite a bit in international crises, not just ones where the church itself is involved) and fairly large stockpiles of relevant supplies (food, medicine, etc) stored at several points around the globe. Relief would be fairly quick in coming and rebuilding would begin pretty much as soon as the waters are gone. Yes, the Mormons would control how and where things got divvied up, but you really wouldn't be turned away just because you're not of the faith.

Re Mormons and women and magic: I think #2 is the most plausible one. Add to that a bit of superstition and witches being generally considered female, women having a bad standing in book religions' mythology in general, and Mormon belief in daemonic possession, and being female and awakened sounds like a raw deal for Mormons.

Re Red Rain: I could see Horizon and the PCC coming for help, but not many others. The North Americva of 2074 is a hostile place, the CAS hates the PCC passionately over worthless desert inhabited by a handful of Latinos, the UCAS is in high paranoia mode anyway (as is Sioux), Aztlan is Aztlan and California and the SSC have their own crises' tio deal with.

Not necessarily so. The Mormons were allowed to stay in the NAN because their community supported the SAIM during the war. And a lot of them were probably willing to do so. The US government sent the armed forces in the West to hunt the Amerindians and send them back into the concentration camps they escaped from. Some Mormons would oppose that for purely theological reasons (when Joseph Smith said angels told him to bring salvation to the Native Americans, it didn't mean to kill them). Other simply because they think that isn't right. At that point, I guess the Mormons rather had the impression of being the only bastion of Christianity in the US. From their point of view, the Native would have been as good as neighbors as the rest of the US population, if not better.

Of course, the Mormons born after the Treaty of Denver, may not feel the same way. Especially if they were confronted to the strong anti-anglo sentiment that grew in the Ute over the years.

All I know about Salt Lake City comes from my brief stay there on a road trip. There's a Victoria's Secret across the street from the big Mormon Temple. It's like having one right across the street from the Vatican.

I'd throw a #5 in there: Much like homosexuality today, you can be Awakened, you just can't do anything with it. Not as harsh as banning/excommunicating, community-wise, but just as difficult for the unfortunate Mormon. That way they neatly side-step the "why are both women and men Awakening, rather than just holders of the priesthood?" question.

That seems fairly likely for a religious community. Possibly with the addition that men who awakened would get pushed towards priesthood, to reinforce claims of divinely granted power.

The Ute region contained both the Saints of Salt Lake and the Sinners of Las Vegas.

That's gotta mess with your nation when the population's so tiny.

There are no Triple-A corps that are headquartered in the city, nor are any double-A, but the Church has influence of a large A or small Double-A, I'd think. And I'd lay good odds that Brigham Young University has a fantastic Thaumaturgy department.

And, yeah, I'd say that the magic is more likely aspected than a true Ebb. They tended to call it an ebb because "The place is so clean and antiseptic", which gave some people the wiggins as nowhere should be so nice. (The NAN and Twilight Horizon write-ups are quite keen.)

Both were in effect separate states that were just represented to foreign agencies by Ute, much like Monaco, Liechtenstein and San Marino are represented by France, Italy and Switzerland today.


Possible too, yeah. Though, given their polygamous ways, getting out in that case might be easier for men than women. And Mormons are quite obsessed with exorcisms even today.

I'm gonna have to ask if this is personal experience. In my 30 years, I've only known one person who knew a person who was "possessed" and even then the story is a bit shaky. Most Mormons, in my experience, don't actually think it happens anymore, if they even believe it can in the first place.

Also, it's not going to be BYU that has the good Thaumaturgy department, it'd be the University of Utah. They're way more tech oriented and attempt to push the cutting edge in damn near everything. Hell, they're one of the foremost centers for cybernetic research (in the real world) because of the amazing CompSci and Medical programs.

Well, then most Mormons believe it to be possible; whether they're sincere about if they believe it still happens is ... something I sort of doubt (why shouldn't it?). And I knew a foreign exchange student who once told me he hasn't told his parents he was gay because that's daemonic possesion to them (it was one of these conversations you have as a designated driver, but personally, I think he was too drunk to lie). The guy was a Mormon.

I wouldn't base "most" off of a conversation with a singular, drunken person. Never heard of exorcisms whilst growing up in the LDS church, and never hear about it from family that are still part of it. And given some of the "huh?" things thrown about by people in Sunday school and seminary, it'd have been talked about if it was big in the church.

And Wak, I'd say that BYU is about as likely to have a major Thaumaturgy department as Liberty University is to have a top-line Women's Studies program.

It's not. It's a choice in their eyes, one you can overcome by the usuals: praying, help from family, and LOTS of religion. This I know because my roommate is an openly gay Mormon.

Just noticed this. Halinn, all (worthy) men in the Mormon church become members of the priesthood, starting at the age of 12. Awakening wouldn't really do much to help out there.

I suppose that, if interested, we best move this to PMs because forum rules and shit.

Eh, I'm good. We've all been pretty civil and it's all been mostly relevant to game play, so I'm not too worried about getting into trouble. That part about the LDS Church's stance on homosexuality is definitely something we should avoid though, seeing as how it's not really relevant anymore. Back to SLC?

Personally, I'd like to see what people would write up for a homebrew SLC based on their experiences, especially with SLC becoming way more worldly and desirable for large companies of the years since it was originally written up.

SoNA is completely insane on SLC. To give an obvious example, Mormons are not anti-gun. For example, Utah was the first state that passed a law that prohibited state universities from banning students from carrying concealed weapons on campus. And as one of my LDS friends mentioned once, Jesus had Peter, Brigham Young had Porter Rockwell. In SoNA SLC has a no weapons policy with magical gun detectors. The entire SLC section was pretty clearly written by someone who knew nothing, cared less and looks like they just randomly made shit up in a drunken evening.

I had it as being an island of civilization in the totalitarian Ute state, where the 40,000 Utes oppress the 600,000 Navaho and other Native Americans while the two million LDS of the Salt Lake City-Ogden Metropolitan Area pretend to be ruled by the Utes. The SLC Sheriff's department is very, very large and has unusual equipment for "police", as well as having a much larger sheriffs "reserve officers", which consists of pretty much all the male residents. Who are organized in companies and keep their assault rifles and body armor at home except for their yearly training sessions.

But the coffee is pretty bad and there are not a lot of places to get a good beer.

I'd keep the mana ebb, and that's about it if I were to write a homebrew. I think Jay Levine wrote the SoNA section on the Ute nation, and from talking with him in the past on Shadowland I wouldn't say that about him, kzt. I agree very little with what's been written about the city for the setting, but I'd chalk that up to someone with a word-count and deadline issue than someone just pulling shit out of his ass.

Uhm, where do you take the 'more open and worldly' from? Or is that a premise you'd like to see?

Personally, I used it as a dystopian religious state, technologically competent and ideologically rigid, run by a more fundamentalist LDS church, with roaming bands of missionaries (young men who found no mate in SLC) in the outskirts looking for eligible women to convert and marry, especially in local and rather oppressed white reservations. Resulting immigration made the city larger than today, and provided a significant workforce. Also, there was a plethora of religious spam on the characters there.

One thing is for certain: LDS missionaries are all over teh world, seeking more converts.

And now I make a note to have a pair of missionaries to knock on teh door of my group's safehouse.

"Hello, I am Michael."
"And I am Wolf-Howls-at-Moon."
"And we'd like to share the word with you."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsccgEjLqMc

Yes, I do know that.

I think Neko meant that our-timeline SLC has become more worldly and open than it was when the first SR-timeline was written, hermit, which is very true. Given the time that the divergence happened in SR and the overall "glass-all-the-way-empty" feel of cyberpunk I'd probably ignore that, though.

Me too, it's a dystopia running on clichés, after all.

Well, demonic possession is officially recognized by the RCC and there are prominent examples like a certain Indian-American governor who himself described how he took part in the exorcism of a woman, complete with physically restraining the victim when she wanted to seek more qualified treatment for her seizures. Most catholics in the western world would still describe the idea as rather...questionable


BTW, doesn't Mormon mythology say that the ancient earthly paradise in America included the native tribes? That would explain why the Mormons got along better with the NAN than the rest of the old USA.

Yes, to my knowledge they'Re the new Jews or soemthing.

And yes, the RCC is hot on Exorcism - hell, our own Bishops' conference is, though they're rather coy about it, and with Ratzinger in the Holy See this will not get any saner any time sooon - but my point is that Mormons believe that, too, to my knowledge.

Could be. I'm hardly an expert. I spent about 5 weeks there at Novell events during the 90s and early 2000s plus a visit or two since, but the whole approach just to that section strikes me as someone "just pulling shit out of his ass". Of course, given that there are 10,000 Utes vs 300,000 Navajo, the entire concept of a "Ute nation" is so totally insane I guess that what he did hardly rates...

not quite. you're sort of combining two different pieces of information that we do believe in there, i think.

for starters, we believe that pre-flood (ie pre-Noah), the things that happened in the Bible occurred somewhere on the American continent, and in particular that parts of Missouri are where Adam lived towards the end of his life (possibly earlier on as well, but i'm not aware of anything which specifically indicates that... in contrast, the fact that Missouri is believed to be the place where Adam and many of his descendants gathered at the end of Adam's life *is* quite well documented... note that i said the *belief* is well documented, i'm not saying we have some archaeological proof of this or anything. just revelation).

we also believe, and again, this is very well documented, that native americans are descendants of groups of Israelites (one group primarily being of the tribe of Manasseh, and another must have included at least some from the tribe of Judah given the heir to the throne of Judah was among them. so far as we can tell, there don't appear to have been any Levites, if that matters to you). in fact, this is how the Book of Mormon begins: around 600 BC, just before the babylonians invade and destroy Jerusalem and scatter the Israelites living there across their empire, a group leaves Jerusalem, travels to the ocean, and crosses it. another group also left shortly after the babylonian invasion and crossed the ocean as well (the former group is much more thoroughly documented than the latter, at least up until the two groups meet and combine).

the Book of Mormon is a (partial) record of these people beginning in 600 BC and continuing to 421 AD. as is written on the title page, part of the purpose of the Book of Mormon is to convince the modern native americans that they are of the house of Israel and that they should come unto Christ. as a result, Mormons in general tended to be on better terms with native americans than most european settlers... we were trying to make friends with them and preach the gospel to them, which is generally considered to be much more effectively done with living people.

as to the Church's approach to magic, as i said i really can't see them thinking of it as being the priesthood. it's too clearly not controlled by God. either a complete rejection of it (which just seems unlikely in view of how vulnerable that leaves them), or an acceptance of it but a very strong opposition to certain aspects of it (with mental manipulations and possession spirits being very likely to be on the list of "evil magic"), with it being considered a gift from God but not the priesthood, are the most likely results. as i've said before, i consider the latter to be more likely (frankly, if you don't have access to at least wards and counterspelling, you're going to be in very bad shape in the 6th world).

as to miracles... we believe that they are possible. i would say that most are not expecting a pillar of fire from heaven (though it is in theory a possible response), but healing (not necessarily instantaneously), receiving guidance and inspiration in answer to prayers (not necessarily in visions or dreams, though again... it is possible), and being strengthened by the Lord in difficult times and such. *can* God throw a lightning bolt at a tank? absolutely, if God felt it was necessary. but i would say he's much more likely to simply soften the ground to muck in front of the tank instead, or help you figure out how to disable or destroy the tank... and of course, there's always the possibility that the answer will be "no" for one reason or another.

Well, the Ute Nation is more or less the nation of tribes nobody likes (Pawnee!). Also, the NAN lives by the good american tradition of a one-drop rule (SoNA suggests that), meaning if you can prove ONE of your ancestors ever was a Ute, so are you. That expands the numbers of Native Americans considerably. Also, today's numbers are tribal affiliation, not ethnicity, which are two different things. It's also the only way to make any sense of the NAN books' numbers.

Also, more SLC facts:

Brigham Young Transit Lines, the monopoly on bus transit in Ute Nation (and in 2074 presumably still a large company, though probably PCC controlled) and is famous for it's preachy onboard entertainment program. Also, SLC operates one of only three international airports in former Ute Nation.

And one hero. Daniel "Howling Coyote" Coleman, the prophet of the Ghost Dance and leader of SAIM was a Ute, as were his first followers and lieutnants. You could somewhat compare that to the US: there only was one Georges Washington, yet the capital and a state are named after him.

Thanks for explaining this, but what caused the watershed at 421? For some reason Google was amazingly non-informative

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_chronology

Starting in 200 CE, a group called the Lamanites started defying the Church and the teaching of Jesus Christ. They became stronger and stronger, and by 245 they already were more numerous than the Nephites (the believers). There were several wars between 321 and 385. In the end, the Nephite nation lost and were annihilated. By 400, all the survivors had been slain, except for Moroni, the son of the prophet Mormon. In 421, Moroni hid the sacred texts that Joseph Smith uncovered centuries later. Hence why nothing is said about what happened after that point.

As fascinating as the mormons are, surely there is other things to know about SLC? right? ... right guys...?

Stupid question... is there actually a salt lake at salt lake? if not, I think that some ambient mana could fix that

Of course there is. Look at a map.

It's a lot like teh Dead Sea, really. High salt content (obviously) which makes people quite bouyant.

I'm given to understand that it also smells kinda bad.

I was expecting more salt less lake, like those dried lake beds.

Hmm, should have searched for "chronology" instead of "history"


So the forefathers of the NAN are believed to have waged a genocidal war against the ancient Mormons...I see some potential tension there. Oh wait, did I just try to make sense of NAN demographics? Nevermind, move along citizen

Lionhearted, we have both: The Great Salt Lake and Bonneville Salt Flats where Speed Week happens every year.