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Lionhearted
Well if they're breaking into a decent size installation you can assume that the company contracted a magician to lay down a ward.
Even a f1 ward will do, because.
a) it blocks astral sight meaning the spirit must follow them inside to maintain conceal
b) if the spirit forces it's way through it means that the ward creator will know about it.
c) Spirits won't pass through astral barriers unless ordered to.

Using spirits to bypass some gangers all good, you'll feel the drain in the morning.
Using spirits to enter a secure facility, It won't be that easy omae.
Tashiro
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 31 2012, 10:41 AM) *
Well if they're breaking into a decent size installation you can assume that the company contracted a magician to lay down a ward.
Even a f1 ward will do, because.
a) it blocks astral sight meaning the spirit must follow them inside to maintain conceal
b) if the spirit forces it's way through it means that the ward creator will know about it.
c) Spirits won't pass through astral barriers unless ordered to.

Using spirits to bypass some gangers all good, you'll feel the drain in the morning.
Using spirits to enter a secure facility, It won't be that easy omae.


True, that's one way to do it, but it isn't as helpful for external compounds and such as much smile.gif The PCs are currently exploring the heart of Africa, and are using Concealment on the vehicle.
Lionhearted
Well a place like Africa is bound to have erratic mana levels BC and random mana events should be present every now and again, aswell as potential encounters at nightfall (unless they're using bound spirits, which you can deal with by having the spirits start to resent the slave labour)
You also got local players not to keen with having unlicensed magic users on their turf. Spirit patrols patrolling settlements or around key locations is not that far fetched especially considering that a place like Africa had some ties to traditional practices left, making the transition to the awakened world more natural.
Magic is only out of control if you let it be.
kzt
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 31 2012, 08:41 AM) *
a) it blocks astral sight meaning the spirit must follow them inside to maintain conceal

Nope, spirit only has to be there to cast it. It can sustain it from it's home plane.
Lionhearted
Oh, specific rules for critter powers. However a ward would still block the concealment (with GMs discretion) as it would a sustained spell, which makes the F1 ward kinda useless but wards still act as an obstacle. and given that the force of the ward (as per core) doesn't affect the cost F4+ wouldn't be a stretch.
kzt
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 31 2012, 10:18 AM) *
Oh, specific rules for critter powers. However a ward would still block the concealment (with GMs discretion) as it would a sustained spell, which makes the F1 ward kinda useless but wards still act as an obstacle. and given that the force of the ward (as per core) doesn't affect the cost F4+ wouldn't be a stretch.

I agree, the ward would impact the power.
Ympulse
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 30 2012, 10:11 AM) *
and guys. Im not out to execute the players Wanted style. Just to spook them a bit.

If you want a Sniper to spook the team, you should make it cinematic, since RAW, Snipers are damn near guaranteed to ruin a PC's day if they get a shot off.

I actually have a rule that I stick to, which is that I never use snipers against PCs, since it just a more drawn-out way of saying "Your character dies. roll a new one, please."
_Pax._
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 31 2012, 08:35 AM) *
I've taken a look and there's a possibility for a team of PCs to spot a sniper.
Pre-shot:
Player DP 10 (highest value) +5 (group bonus)
-2 distracted, -2 interfering element, -3 target far away, -4 ruthenium polymer coating: -11
So that's 4 dice to make a Threshold 2 or more

Threshold is set by the sniper's hits on a relevant stealth test - Infiltrate if moviing, Disguise (Camoflage) if not.

QUOTE
After shot:
to notice the gun: -6 integral silencer, -1 electronic firing, -2 subsonic ammunition, -3 distance, -2 interference, +2 stands out, +3 actively looking
DP 4 vs threshold 2 or more

Fixed that for you: no "professional sniper" worth the name is going to fail to make their gun as subtle as ssible. Chameleon coating, electronic firing, integral silencer, and subsonic ammunition should be the baseline, default setup. And the sniper' skill hits still set the threshold.

QUOTE
Noticing the sniper: -4 ruthenium coating, -3 distance, -2 interference, +3 actively looking:
DP 9 vs threshold 2 or more.

Threshold still set by sniper's hits on stealth skill. smile.gif
Lionhearted
Well, by core using a skill in a combat situation is a complex action unless otherwise noted.
If camoflagued then yes the Threshold is the Hits on the disguise check, But even if you assume that it requires no actions to remain hidden the sniper must spend a complex action to regain stealth after firing the shot. Which leaves a "full" (depending on initiative) pass where the sniper isn't hidden.

For the modifiers I used the Sniper I built for the team (which I couldn't be bothered to make custom weaponry for)
The gun is an unmodded Barrett 121 and the ammunition is standard full-metal jackets.
Tashiro
Actually, one thing you could do is have a silence spell cast on the weapon, thus ensuring it makes no noise at all firing the weapon. The 'boom' of the shot breaking the sound barrier is gone in this case. Handy, that. You could also put a silence on the bullet as well, thus ensuring that the entire attack is perfectly silent. This would create huge penalties for anyone trying to determine where the shot came from.

Hmm. I think a good professional sniper teams might use a mage for spotting and support, and a cybered-up sniper to do the actual shot. Or an adept. I'm going to have to think this over, considering I'm expected to make a shadowrun character soon with my sister. Professional duo might actually be pretty awesome.
kzt
The shooter is immobile, prone, wearing camo and hidden under some sort of camo cover (and probably also a F6+ concealment). What is he doing to "regain stealth"? This isn't D&D where the invisibility spell stops working when you attack.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 31 2012, 04:57 PM) *
Well, by core using a skill in a combat situation is a complex action unless otherwise noted.
If camoflagued then yes the Threshold is the Hits on the disguise check, But even if you assume that it requires no actions to remain hidden the sniper must spend a complex action to regain stealth after firing the shot. Which leaves a "full" (depending on initiative) pass where the sniper isn't hidden.

Disguise does not require any actions to maintain, once it has been used. If it did, you could never successfully disguise yourself as, say, a member of the janitorial staff, and fast-talk your way past a security guard. smile.gif

OTOH, of course, Disguise (camogflage) is pretty useless when you're moving around ... which is why snipers still need the Infiltrate skill: for etting to and from their chosen firing position.

QUOTE
For the modifiers I used the Sniper I built for the team (which I couldn't be bothered to make custom weaponry for)
The gun is an unmodded Barrett 121 and the ammunition is standard full-metal jackets.

He should still be using Subsonic rounds, for the -2. And if he's using an off-the-shelf gun, it should be something he intends to treat as disposable. Have him douse it in C-squared and abandon it on-site. (PErhaps with a few stealth RFIDs planted on it, just in case the PCs are dumb enough to want to KEEP it, but not run a tag eraser over it ...).
Umidori
I still think it's funny that a .50 caliber anti-material rifle can be silenced, or fire subsonic rounds.

I mean, these things are meant to take out tanks and the like at extreme ranges, and they're powerful enough that firing them kicks up clouds of dirt and loose stones from the ground around them. To be honest, a Barrett is more like a scaled down assault cannon than it is like a traditional rifle. It's heavy, you fire it from prone, and its chief purpose is penetrating armor.

~Umi
Lionhearted
QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 31 2012, 11:05 PM) *
The shooter is immobile, prone, wearing camo and hidden under some sort of camo cover (and probably also a F6+ concealment). What is he doing to "regain stealth"? This isn't D&D where the invisibility spell stops working when you attack.

This isn't a game where stealth skill = invisibility.
and by the rules.
Shoot gun = simple action
Use a skill = Complex action
You simply cannot do both in the same initiative pass.
If you're arguing for camoflague keep reading. But! You can't actively stay hidden (with infiltratation) and shoot in the same initiative pass.

QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Dec 31 2012, 11:08 PM) *
Disguise does not require any actions to maintain, once it has been used. If it did, you could never successfully disguise yourself as, say, a member of the janitorial staff, and fast-talk your way past a security guard. smile.gif

OTOH, of course, Disguise (camogflage) is pretty useless when you're moving around ... which is why snipers still need the Infiltrate skill: for etting to and from their chosen firing position.

I was refering to staying hidden with infiltrate, on the camoflague example I would totally agree.
Although how exactly does one camoflague using a ruthenium coated armor? You'd think anything additional would eliminate the effect of the light bending.
"You're trying to look like an invisible shrub?"
_Pax._
Wouldn't be a problem, if there were a sensible system of BONUSSES to hear weapons, based on their relative caliber.

As it stands, it's as easy to hear a light pistol fired six blocks away, as it is to hear an assault cannon at the same distance.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 31 2012, 05:24 PM) *
Although how exactly does one camoflague using a ruthenium coated armor? You'd think anything additional would eliminate the effect of the light bending.
"You're trying to look like an invisible shrub?"

A chameleon suit is still lagrely man-shaped, and has a man-shaped silhouette/outline.

Adding bits and pieces taken from the surrounding environment - some trash, some bits of dry grass if you'll be at ground level, etc = and adding it, suld benefit even someone with a chameleon suit.

And there's also this: the disguise(camoflage) roll can also represent things like building a "blind" - concealing not so much the nsiper hismelf, but, the position he is firing from. Rearranging a pile of garbage to produce a human-sized hollow inside of it, and affixing some more trash to your back. At that point, the only thing visible outside the "pile of garbage" will be your chameleon-coated rifle's muzzle and scope - and maybe a few slivers of the sniper himself, but the chameleon suit does for THAT quite nicely.

(Honestly, I wish inead of being perception negatives, camo suits and chameleon rigs acted as BONUSSES for your own skills ... maybe something to wish for in 5E.)
Lionhearted
At the same time a negative modifier is way more devastating then a flat bonus.
_Pax._
The bonus could be increased, to retain the impact. Say, off the top of my head, +6 instead of -4.
kzt
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Dec 31 2012, 03:36 PM) *
\At that point, the only thing visible outside the "pile of garbage" will be your chameleon-coated rifle's muzzle and scope - and maybe a few slivers of the sniper himself, but the chameleon suit does for THAT quite nicely.

No, the muzzle is inside the hide. Sticking your muzzle outside the hide is a rookie mistake.
See this example of an urban sniper hide in Iraq: http://loadoutroom.com/227/hostage-rescue-...lumbian-sniper/
kzt
QUOTE (Umidori @ Dec 31 2012, 03:09 PM) *
I still think it's funny that a .50 caliber anti-material rifle can be silenced, or fire subsonic rounds.

It's a BIG can.

http://www.aacblog.com/cousins/
_Pax._
QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 31 2012, 06:26 PM) *
No, the muzzle is inside the hide. Sticking your muzzle outside the hide is a rookie mistake.
See this example of an urban sniper hide in Iraq: http://loadoutroom.com/227/hostage-rescue-...lumbian-sniper/

Then again, we don't have Chameleon Coat treatments for sniper weapons yet. smile.gif

Also, that's not so much a Hide, as it is "I'll just stay back from the window a little ways". smile.gif
kzt
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Dec 31 2012, 05:17 PM) *
Then again, we don't have Chameleon Coat treatments for sniper weapons yet. smile.gif

Also, that's not so much a Hide, as it is "I'll just stay back from the window a little ways". smile.gif

It worked for him. At least 160 times.

And once you are away from the window and in shadows it's really hard for anyone [outside] to see anything. Particularly without fancy optics from inside the FoV of the guy on the rifle.
_Pax._
QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 31 2012, 08:05 PM) *
It worked for him. At least 160 times.

I never suggested it didn't or wouldn't work - just that it's not really what comes to mind when talking about "a hide". smile.gif

Lionhearted
160? try 505. with an normal hunting rifle no less.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Umidori @ Dec 31 2012, 11:09 PM) *
I still think it's funny that a .50 caliber anti-material rifle can be silenced, or fire subsonic rounds.

I mean, these things are meant to take out tanks and the like at extreme ranges, and they're powerful enough that firing them kicks up clouds of dirt and loose stones from the ground around them. To be honest, a Barrett is more like a scaled down assault cannon than it is like a traditional rifle. It's heavy, you fire it from prone, and its chief purpose is penetrating armor.

~Umi

The russians have a silenced .50x54 sniper Rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VKS_sniper_rifle
thorya
Better than just hiding the sound of your shot. Rig alternative sniper locations with speakers to emulate the shot coming from there and maybe a barrel looking object to draw their fire and attention.

Tashiro
I'm surprised at the acrobatics people use to stick to 100% technology for dealing with this. Having a single mage helping the sniper solves a lot of problems - calling a spirit with Concealment, using silence, stealth, and invisibility spells, cleansing metamagic so the bullet can't be used for ritual sorcery to kill the sniper...

And if the sniper's at 'extreme' range, I don't even think anyone on the team is going to be able to figure out where the shot came from - the sniper's going to get away, and be able to prepare a second shot.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Tashiro @ Jan 1 2013, 10:17 AM) *
I'm surprised at the acrobatics people use to stick to 100% technology for dealing with this. Having a single mage helping the sniper solves a lot of problems - calling a spirit with Concealment, using silence, stealth, and invisibility spells, cleansing metamagic so the bullet can't be used for ritual sorcery to kill the sniper...

Consider there to be an implicit "and magic only makes this even worse" at the end of all my posts.
thorya
QUOTE (Tashiro @ Jan 1 2013, 10:17 AM) *
I'm surprised at the acrobatics people use to stick to 100% technology for dealing with this. Having a single mage helping the sniper solves a lot of problems - calling a spirit with Concealment, using silence, stealth, and invisibility spells, cleansing metamagic so the bullet can't be used for ritual sorcery to kill the sniper...

And if the sniper's at 'extreme' range, I don't even think anyone on the team is going to be able to figure out where the shot came from - the sniper's going to get away, and be able to prepare a second shot.


I wasn't suggesting that you not use magic. Obviously, a mage hiding the sniper is awesome. But why stop at a kill when we can go overkill?

Giving an obvious target gives even more time to cover your escape and less likelihood that someone's going to actually try to trace the bullet path to launch something back at you, because once the bullet has gone through more than one thing, the possible directions from which the shot came quickly narrows. Several counter sniper tactics don't actually require knowing exactly where the sniper is. My group would probably drop to cover, set-up a smoke screen, and then try to blast the general area where the shot came from with explosives or chemicals. They would probably spread out to avoid giving a sniper a nice group of targets to key in on. Though extreme ranges if you can actually get them in an urban environment make that hard as well as multiple drones sniping simultaneously.
NiL_FisK_Urd
One thing i dont understand is why someone would use a dedicated metahuman sniper in an urban environment, when you can get a decent unobtrusive sniping drone for 12250 nY - Rifle included (Modified GMC Chariot w/ LTA, Chameleon Coating, Satellite Communication armed with an Ares Desert Strike w/ internal silencer + external smartlink).

Adding Command 6 (600-900nY), a command optimized commlink (500nY+Link) and Hot-Sim (250nY), the base DP for sniping is 9+Gunnery skill. And you can do this from another continent, so if you get spotted, you only have to fear black IC.
Mercer
It's been a few cycles ago since this came up, but I liked the house rules that came out of that thread so I'm always happy to dig them back up.

QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 27 2011, 01:05 PM) *
A similar discussion on dealing with snipers can be found here.

Around page 4 of that topic we started discussing how to pinpoint the sniper by sound, and the houserule I came up with looked like this:
    "Something like Threshold [2] per range category, so Threshold [8] at Extreme Range. (I don't know if basing off the range cat of the weapon makes sense, but it seems easier.) The threshold would likely be higher than spotting the sniper by beating his Infiltration hits, but the targets would accrue successes on each perception test for the aural pinpointing, whereas with the visual they'd have to beat the Infiltration all at once.

    A sniper who moves every few shots becomes very difficult to pinpoint by sound (hopefully, he'll blow his Infil roll and get spotted that way), but as I pointed out before the sniper moving helps the targets as well, since that gives them time to move, seek cover, and escape and evade. Meanwhile, the targets can be using their tactical skills (LOG + whatev [longarms or tactics were the suggestions]) to pick the best sniper spots. It's a gamble, but so is everything else.

The idea being that hearing a silenced gunshot is a threshold [2], and any hits above that count towards the pinpointing of the sniper, so at extreme range, 10 hits on an aural perception test would be enough to have a good idea of the sniper's location (within a few meters anyway). It's also noted that a sniper can stack up around a -14 to perception tests to be heard, so this is not an easy test by any means. But if the sniper stays in one spot then the targets will hopefully be able to put some hits on the track to locate him, and if the sniper moves that gives the targets time to seek better cover or try to find him through other means (astral scouting and so on).

In an urban setting, a sniper will generally either have to choose between a wide angle of fire at short range, or a very narrow field of fire at a longer range because of intervening obstacles. At shorter ranges the sniper is easier to find, at longer ranges the sniper is easier to avoid, so it's a trade-off.

My personal favorite sniper countermeasure (assuming you survive the opening shots) is the spell Trid Phantasm. It's instant, mobile concealment good for blocking line of sight. Once you've hidden from the sniper, you can use it to make phantom targets to draw his fire. And once you locate him, you can make a giant, blinking red arrow appear in the air above him, just to mess with his head.
kzt
Pros don't need more than one shot. You hear the bullet impact, then the supersonic crack, then the sound as the dead body crashes to the pavement. So planning how to deal with the sniper how decides to stay and play isn't terribly useful, because he'll be gone. Or it will be the start of a general attack by the rest of the team.

In order for a sniper to be there to shoot them the sniper clearly knows a whole lot more about the players and their plans than the players know about him. This is why the entire game degenerates into the players trying to find ways to never appear where a sniper can spot them, so they will always be trying to go from a heavily armored vehicle to inside a building without appearing in public. Assuming they don't just say "screw this" and leave town for a few months, which is probably the right answer.
Lionhearted
I'm not above applying movie logic if it makes the game fun
_Pax._
A truly vindictive S.O.B. of a "sniper" needn't evenhide, at all.

Just have a top-shelf Commlink, a high-rating Command program, and a Renraku Stormlcloud (Chameleon Coat, Sattelite Link, and Flexible/External/Remote weapon mount) armed with your sniper rifle of choice (integral silencer, chameleon coat, electronic firing). And gecko-tape a half-kilo brick of C12, with a remote detonator, to the drone.

Worst case, even if they DO find it? BOOM, no physical evidence for them to recover. Zero means of tracking the sniper ... who can turn around and use one of his OTHER six or eight idential drones, to do the same thing.

From halfway 'round the world.

^_^
NiL_FisK_Urd
Pax, do you even read what other people post? Nearly the same suggestion was posted 4 posts above. Also, a R3 commlink with an optimized command program suffices.
_Pax._
Well I am so very sorry that I missed your post, and had the presumption to actually have a similar thought to yours. Perhaps int eh future I'llclear all my posts with you before making them, just to be sure I don't repeat this horrible travesty.

*sigh*
NiL_FisK_Urd
Splendid idea. I will reserve a timeslot for clearing your posts. (20:00 - 20:01, GMT+1, daily)
Lionhearted
Um speaking of Gunnery can someone please explain how it works through RC?
Drone acting on it's own pilot+targetting (+ net hits from active sensory)
Jumped into a drone Gunnery+?(pilot?) +hot sim +VCR (+net hits on sensor)
Gunnery through RC Gunnery+command+hot sim (+net hits)?

And what can you actually fire with the complex firing action? a full burst? SS?
NiL_FisK_Urd
Jumped in: Response (of the Drone) + Gunnery + VCR + hot-sim (+ sensor targeting)
Remote Control: Command + Gunnery + hot-sim (+ sensor targeting)

You can make one SS/SA/BF/FA/Supression action per turn, because VR turns every action into a complex one.
Lionhearted
and response is Device rating unless upgraded no? So 4 for a Security drone.
Umidori
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Dec 31 2012, 11:42 PM) *
The russians have a silenced .50x54 sniper Rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VKS_sniper_rifle

A 12.7 x 54 mm round is substantially smaller and less powerful than a .50 BMG round, which measures 12.7 x 99 mm. The Russian round has an overall length of 97 mm, meaning that the case alone of the .50 BMG is larger than the entire Russian round, and that the case of the .50 BMG is nearly twice the length of the Russian round's case. Twice the case length, twice the propellant, roughly.

The Russian bullet itself is substantially heavier than the .50 BMG's, weighing from around 900 to 1200 gr, compared to roughly 650 to 800 gr. This extra weight and the smaller amount of propellant results in a slower round, with a muzzle velocity of ~325 m/s. Compare this to the Barrett's ~850 m/s. With kinetic energy equal to ½ mv², the slow and heavy russian round has nowhere near the kick of the lighter and quicker .50 BMG round.

~Umi
Modular Man
Note: Mammoth post below. Just wanted to add my 2 cts smile.gif
Probably useful if you really, really want to shoot right through your target (which an anti-material rifle is made for). A biological target wouldn't care much... except for the Juggernaut. nyahnyah.gif
QUOTE (thorya @ Jan 1 2013, 05:48 PM) *
Giving an obvious target gives even more time to cover your escape and less likelihood that someone's going to actually try to trace the bullet path to launch something back at you, because once the bullet has gone through more than one thing, the possible directions from which the shot came quickly narrows. Several counter sniper tactics don't actually require knowing exactly where the sniper is. My group would probably drop to cover, set-up a smoke screen, and then try to blast the general area where the shot came from with explosives or chemicals. They would probably spread out to avoid giving a sniper a nice group of targets to key in on. Though extreme ranges if you can actually get them in an urban environment make that hard as well as multiple drones sniping simultaneously.

Your tactics would be pretty much what I'd do.
I even did. My group met a sniper in an area he controlled. Was a bad day, my character was the first to die. Yet, the GM warned us beforehand that this would be a very hard run, we were likely to not make it, and he provided us with a few redshirt NPCs - I got one of those to play right after my initial character died.
Then I knew the stakes and acted accordingly.
Cover, movement, splitting up, smokescreens. In the end, another character (a tracker) split off, brought the fight to him and eventually chased him off. It was a great night, though I still miss my One-Shot character.

Urban environments, as has been detailed, provide an awful lot of cover.

I'm also a little concerned abou the rules mechanics. Just to get clear how I'd do it:
First thing: Sniper declares he wants to shoot. Fine. Initiative and Surprise checks by all parties involved, modifiers included.
Then combat turn as usual. Damage gets applied, actions are taken.
Maybe a character got lucky and scored a higher surprise test than the sniper - unlikely, but possible. I then would allow said character to use Full Dodge against the sniper's shot because something spooked him/her off... this could make the difference between life and death.

QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Dec 31 2012, 10:27 PM) *
Threshold is set by the sniper's hits on a relevant stealth test - Infiltrate if moviing, Disguise (Camoflage) if not.


QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 31 2012, 02:35 PM) *

After shot:
to notice the gun: -6 integral silencer, -1 electronic firing, -2 subsonic ammunition, -3 distance, -2 interference, +2 stands out, +3 actively looking
DP 4 vs threshold 2 or more

Fixed that for you: no "professional sniper" worth the name is going to fail to make their gun as subtle as ssible. Chameleon coating, electronic firing, integral silencer, and subsonic ammunition should be the baseline, default setup. And the sniper' skill hits still set the threshold.


Threshold still set by sniper's hits on stealth skill. smile.gif

You are mostly correct. But I still think that even a silenced gunsho would be a very unusual sound, thus still providing the appropriate modifier for that.
Subsonic rounds, though, bring their own problems... Nothing fancy, but narrows down how far one has to search smile.gif

QUOTE (thorya @ Jan 1 2013, 03:43 PM) *
Better than just hiding the sound of your shot. Rig alternative sniper locations with speakers to emulate the shot coming from there and maybe a barrel looking object to draw their fire and attention.

Quite a good idea. I may use that. Mount a little something extra on a few spare (surveillance) drones or something like that...

I'm still working on anti-sniper tactics and equipment myself because I fear GM retaliation once the two people with sniper rifles in my regular group get going smile.gif
Luckily, sniper drones are somewhat prone to hacking.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Modular Man @ Jan 2 2013, 01:02 AM) *
Luckily, sniper drones are somewhat prone to hacking.

Except when they only communicate with satellites - then you have to know their access id in advance, because a scan will not turn up anything useful.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 2 2013, 02:47 PM) *
Except when they only communicate with satellites - then you have to know their access id in advance, because a scan will not turn up anything useful.
What does the communication with a satellite have to do with it?

The other option to hack-proof the sniper is to go analog/awakened.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jan 2 2013, 09:01 AM) *
What does the communication with a satellite have to do with it?

The local WiFi has been turend off completely. Aside from the satellite connection ... it hasn't got a signal rating at all.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 2 2013, 03:03 PM) *
The local WiFi has been turend off completely. Aside from the satellite connection ... it hasn't got a signal rating at all.
Is satellite communication separate from normal wireless communication? I see no such thing in the description of the satellite link, and it actually has a signal rating of 8.
Halinn
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jan 2 2013, 03:08 PM) *
I see no such thing in the description of the satellite link, and it actually has a signal rating of 8.


Fun with signal ranges: a signal of 8 means a range of 100 km. That's too low for any satellites to operate, since they'd get destroyed by air resistance at the speeds necessary to orbit. The satellite link as written can't do what it's meant to do.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Halinn @ Jan 2 2013, 03:26 PM) *
Fun with signal ranges: a signal of 8 means a range of 100 km. That's too low for any satellites to operate, since they'd get destroyed by air resistance at the speeds necessary to orbit. The satellite link as written can't do what it's meant to do.
Bah, the air is thinner in 2070 wink.gif
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jan 2 2013, 03:08 PM) *
Is satellite communication separate from normal wireless communication? I see no such thing in the description of the satellite link, and it actually has a signal rating of 8.

I would count it as a nonstandard wireless link (UW p.196) in hidden mode + a directional antenna (UW p. 199) - unless you are in between the vehicle and the satellite, you cannot hack the communication.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Dec 30 2012, 06:14 PM) *
Unless your PCs have seriously high soak pools sniper situations are very binary. Either the sniper misses or a character is dead. With a sports rifle the minimum damage will be (7base+4called shot+1net hit)P and AP -1. Real sniper rifles with better ammunition are worse.


Snipers are horrible recurring villains because they they have ludicrously low requirements compared to other comparable archetypes of similar offensive power. At the most basic level they have a two stat build (Agility + Intuition) and are virtually unkillable unless you also have a marksman with a ludicrously high perception pool. They are also highly effective against ALL PC archetypes unless you build hardcounters the sniper. In which case, you've probably countered far more opposition as well by doing so. Since they are NPCs they don't need to be bound by the same creation rules as the players. I have a PC sniper (who doesn't always play a sniper, in fact he rarely does that role). I throw 21 dice ignoring take aim bonuses. I have 22 dice on visual perception. My disguise check is 12 before situational modifiers and that's frankly good enough to foil my own perception check at least 50% of the time thanks to all the penalties you get regardless. My infiltration check is 15 ignoring environment so for all intents and purposes, it's easier to spot him when he's still rather than moving (another issue I have with the rules and sniper situations). I'm not confident that I could spot myself. I am confident that I would kill myself before I spotted myself. I believe I have an unspoken gentleman's agreement with the GM. As long as I act more like a dedicated marksman and not a sniper, we shouldn't be facing snipers....

Buying hits at 4:1 means 4 hits after a called shot which is in total +7 damage on top of the base weapon damage. I use a Barret with EX-Ex most of the time so that's 17P/-5AP on the low end with the top end being about 20P/-5AP. APDS if I have a heavy armored target so 16P/-8AP to 19P/-8AP.

The rules of Shadowrun are not well equipped to handle a sniper situation. This is one situation where you're better off going cinematic and not using the sniper to attempt to kill the PCs. It isn't like another PnP RPG where attacking while hidden causes you to be revealed (at least it doesn't say you become unhidden). You need the perception check to know where the sniper is and until you do so, the best you get is a blindfire attack against him where your attack against him is so horribly gimped it's not even worth it. You use Intuition instead of agility (so probably a loss of 4-7 dice for any gunbunny) and you take a -6 penalty so all told it's about -10 to -13 dice and he gets to defend against the attack. The opposed test of a sniper vs the spotter is absurd as well because of the nature of perception penalties and the bonuses you can actually get for the situation. I honestly cannot find a way to effectively get more dice on disguise than I can on infiltration which leads to the absurd situation where it's always easier to spot the hidden sniper than the moving sniper. Most everything you can do for disguise that would legitimately apply to the situation is also permissible for infiltration or in the situations where you get disguise but not infiltration it's evened out by a bonus you get from infiltration that you can't get for disguise.

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QUOTE (Umidori @ Dec 31 2012, 04:55 AM) *
For a good story, you want your sniper to be frightening, not lethal. You want them to be unseen, but not undetected. You want the players to live in dread for a short while, but you also want to give them a golden thread of escape or retaliation. They need to know that they're in the deep end, but they also need to know that they can actually try to do something about it. Escape should be possible. Counterattack should be possible.

Snipers are ambushers. They get in position, take a few shots, and move. But they're ultimately not strong enough to handle a fair fight. If your players get too close, they can turn the tables with little to no effort. Likewise if your players take cover and slip away, the sniper is going to have a hard time following them.

~Umi


For a great example of what snipers should be in a cyberpunk world, watch the episode of Ghost in the Shell 2nd Gig where Saito explains how he got recruited.

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QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 31 2012, 09:35 AM) *
I've taken a look and there's a possibility for a team of PCs to spot a sniper.
Pre-shot:
Player DP 10 (highest value) +5 (group bonus)
-2 distracted, -2 interfering element, -3 target far away, -4 ruthenium polymer coating: -11
So that's 4 dice to make a Threshold 2
After shot:
to notice the gun: -4 silencer, -3 distance, -2 interference, +2 standsout, +3 actively looking
DP 11 vs threshold 2
Noticing the sniper: -4 ruthenium coating, -3 distance, -2 interference, +3 actively looking:
DP 9 vs threshold 2.


A few notes. A silencer mod is -6 while the accessory is a -4. No reason not to have a mod on a sniper rifle, the weapon is already F class and you're pretty much frelled if someone finds you with that. The silencer is a a drop in the ocean. If you're trying to spot the sniper it's an opposed test Perception vs Disguise. If you're trying to hear the shot it's Perception vs Threshold 2.

So lets use myself. DP 22. -2 distracted, -2 interfering element, -3 for target far away, -4 for ruthenium/camouflage. That's -11 for a DP of 11. You're also ignoring visibility modifiers. I don't think most runners do daylight ops so that's almost certainly going to be involved.
I have a disguise check of 12 and I believe it's possible to get some bonuses to it, possibly up to +4, for a DP of 16.

Before the shot:
That 10 against 16 in an opposed check. A teamwork test can only permit as many bonus dice as the rank of perception of the person being assisted. I have 4 perception so with enough hits from teammates I'll be 15 perception against 16 disguise (ignoring visibility modifiers). That's not a good situation for the perceiver.

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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Dec 31 2012, 06:08 PM) *
He should still be using Subsonic rounds, for the -2. And if he's using an off-the-shelf gun, it should be something he intends to treat as disposable. Have him douse it in C-squared and abandon it on-site. (PErhaps with a few stealth RFIDs planted on it, just in case the PCs are dumb enough to want to KEEP it, but not run a tag eraser over it ...).


Subsonic is the one optional choice for a sniper. Hearing a silenced sniper shot is already going to be at -7 just from the weapon, then you're looking at another -5 from other modifiers. Unless the character in question is explicitly built towards raising the snot out of his perception check, he won't have a chance of hearing it.

My perception sniper rocks 20 dice to hear something, the rest of the team is at 12 or 13. One is a longshot to hear the gunfire. The other has 1 die to hit a threshold 2. Neither could hear my sniper PC firing his gun from distance without using edge and they're runners.

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QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 31 2012, 06:24 PM) *
I was refering to staying hidden with infiltrate, on the camoflague example I would totally agree.
Although how exactly does one camoflague using a ruthenium coated armor? You'd think anything additional would eliminate the effect of the light bending.
"You're trying to look like an invisible shrub?"


Staying hidden while firing while moving is not a situation a professional sniper would be attempting to do. It would be fire once then move and setup in a new position. This way you don't reveal yourself and hold off being found for as long as possible. Ruthenium provides a -4 penalty to perception. Camouflage provides a -2 if used in the right environment. A ghillie suit provides a -4. I don't think most people permit these to stack. It's not even necessary to make them stack to make it painful to spot a sniper.

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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Dec 31 2012, 06:57 PM) *
The bonus could be increased, to retain the impact. Say, off the top of my head, +6 instead of -4.


Penalties are preferred. Penalties that drop the other target to 0 dice in their pool forces longshots.

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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Dec 31 2012, 08:17 PM) *
Then again, we don't have Chameleon Coat treatments for sniper weapons yet. smile.gif

Also, that's not so much a Hide, as it is "I'll just stay back from the window a little ways". smile.gif


Basic optics. If you are in an illuminated area, seeing into a shaded area is more difficult than seeing things in the illuminated area. The best way to demonstrate this is go outside on a moonless night. Stand under a streetlight while your friend walks straight out into the darkness about 100ft. Have him then walk towards you until you can spot him. Most likely you will seem him somewhere within 10-30ft from the edge of the pool of light cast by the streetlamp. Stand outside the pool of light and you'll be able to spot him much further off. This is actually one of the things that makes the rape problem in central park in NYC so problematic.
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