Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Mages running rampant
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Tashiro
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 14 2013, 06:34 PM) *
Nope.

It's because .... let's put it in more matrix-y terms for a moment: The sensors in the drone that tell it how much weight it's trying to lift, and so on ... all those pressure/tactile sensors? Those are a Device (sub)node. They send a signal to the core processor. And, the spell SPOOFS that signal to be one that indicates weight, pressure, whatever.

Now, do you see? The drone think there's pressure or force being applied ... when there isn't. But, all the drone (or a person fo that matter) knows of the universe, even their own body, is what information their senses send to theri brain.

The spell takes control of that information. Nothing more, nothing less.


I'd not thought of that. That's pretty damn inspired. I'd allow for that.
_Pax._
Thank you. smile.gif

Of course, if the Drone's operator / controller elected to, say, "over-ride the safety margins", ordering the drone to redline it's engines / lifting arms/whatever?

ZOOOOM, off it goes. Because there's no REAL weight there, nothing to stop the engines from sending the drone (if it's a flier) skyrocketing towards orbit.

But without that "disregard the safety rules, just DO it" impetus?

WARNING, load exceeds safe limits! WARNING, unable to increase altitude / initiate takeoff routine! WARNING!!

smile.gif
Tashiro
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 14 2013, 07:21 PM) *
Awesome things.


That's just awesome. Yes, I think that would be perfect.
FuelDrop
Then if an illusion can automagically spoof any sensor with no checks required, what's the point of having a hacker?
_Pax._
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Jan 14 2013, 07:49 PM) *
Then if an illusion can automagically spoof any sensor with no checks required, what's the point of having a hacker?

For one, you have to know the sensor is there.

For two, the Hacker can spoof the sensor for an unlimited number of people at once; the spell however has to be used and re-used for each, in turn.

For three, the hacker can do a lot more than just spoof sensors.

For four, who said there's no checks, at all? If an illusion can be resisted, then, that's a check right there.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 14 2013, 06:40 PM) *
For one, you have to know the sensor is there.

For two, the Hacker can spoof the sensor for an unlimited number of people at once; the spell however has to be used and re-used for each, in turn.

For three, the hacker can do a lot more than just spoof sensors.

For four, who said there's no checks, at all? If an illusion can be resisted, then, that's a check right there.


Ummmmm... Drones do not get to resist Illusion Spells at all. If the spell beats OR, the Drone registers whatever the spell tells it to.
FuelDrop
Actually, I was thinking about it and I don't think that a hacker could spoof a drone's sensor like that at all. It's hard-wired to the drone's node, so the best a hacker could do is hack the drone and tell it that its sensors are reading a heavy object unless he physically plugged himself into the drone between its sensors and its CPU. If the drone is slaved to a Rigger's commlink then that would be even harder, as the hacker either has to go in through another matrix expert's defenses or else plug himself in directly again.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 14 2013, 09:12 PM) *
Ummmmm... Drones do not get to resist Illusion Spells at all. If the spell beats OR, the Drone registers whatever the spell tells it to.

"Beating the drone's OR" ... that involves rolling dice, right? Well, then ... that's a check!

Certainly not the mage just saying "because Is aid so". smile.gif
Halinn
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 15 2013, 04:38 AM) *
"Beating the drone's OR" ... that involves rolling dice, right? Well, then ... that's a check!

Certainly not the mage just saying "because Is aid so". smile.gif

Don't forget that it's entirely reasonable for a GM to roll the dice on spells like this, where the player can't very well verify the result until it's being tested.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 15 2013, 11:38 AM) *
"Beating the drone's OR" ... that involves rolling dice, right? Well, then ... that's a check!

Certainly not the mage just saying "because Is aid so". smile.gif

You've never met my group's mage, obviously nyahnyah.gif
_Pax._
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Jan 14 2013, 10:44 PM) *
You've never met my group's mage, obviously nyahnyah.gif

IF he says "because I said so", and didn't roll the dice to back it up? Then he's cheating.

OTOH, if he has die rolls that good? "Being REALLY good at it" is not the same as "without any tests".
Neraph
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Jan 13 2013, 08:32 PM) *
So if you make an illusion of a gun, and shoot someone with its illusion bullets, do they still take real damage?

Variant of the Agony spell line. Easy to figure out.

QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 14 2013, 06:52 AM) *
Just use the "Agony" Spell for that.

Ninja'd!

QUOTE (Halinn @ Jan 14 2013, 09:43 PM) *
Don't forget that it's entirely reasonable for a GM to roll the dice on spells like this, where the player can't very well verify the result until it's being tested.

I'd love to be in a group like that. Sadly, I've never heard of them.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 14 2013, 08:38 PM) *
"Beating the drone's OR" ... that involves rolling dice, right? Well, then ... that's a check!

Certainly not the mage just saying "because Is aid so". smile.gif


Not on the Drone's Side it doesn't. The DRONE gets absolutely no say in the matter, nor does the Rigger inside the Drone. smile.gif
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 12 2013, 07:08 AM) *
Physical mask is a multi-sense illusion as such it fools touch, but it's still an illusion which means it conceals what's really there it doesn't change it. As such your fingerprint would still be your own, but you might be able to fool a retinal scan if you knew exactly how someones Iris looks, that would require knowledge, close study and very good memory (as you can't plug an input into your spells)
That said, trying to explain magic with logic, physics or any other measurable metric falls to pieces pretty quickly. It's magic, it defies explanation and rationale despite what fluffy explanation you put on it... Because it's bloody magic.


The question is the exhaustiveness of this physical illusion. Do you simply look, smell, feel, sound, and taste like the person or do you appear to be the person? I should probably explain the second line. There are multiple aspects of a person that can identify a person beyond the five simple senses. Posture and gait are two examples of the body language that uniquely identifies a person. Does that mage with a limp in his left leg that slouches all the time appear to being that high level executive with a limp and slouch or does he appear to have a normal gait and walks with thorough assertiveness?
Neraph
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jan 15 2013, 08:16 AM) *
The question is the exhaustiveness of this physical illusion. Do you simply look, smell, feel, sound, and taste like the person or do you appear to be the person? I should probably explain the second line. There are multiple aspects of a person that can identify a person beyond the five simple senses. Posture and gait are two examples of the body language that uniquely identifies a person. Does that mage with a limp in his left leg that slouches all the time appear to being that high level executive with a limp and slouch or does he appear to have a normal gait and walks with thorough assertiveness?

Exactly correct. There's even Gait Analysis sensor software in Arsenal. I imagine most people would ask what's wrong with the guy, whereas some of the more alert individuals would notice something amiss.
_Pax._
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jan 15 2013, 09:16 AM) *
Does that mage with a limp in his left leg that slouches all the time appear to being that high level executive with a limp and slouch or does he appear to have a normal gait and walks with thorough assertiveness?

As a GM, I would rule that the assertiveness and lack of a limp, would be call for some Con (Acting) rolls. smile.gif

The spell is the costume, but whoever's wearing that costume still has to put on a performance.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 15 2013, 12:05 PM) *
As a GM, I would rule that the assertiveness and lack of a limp, would be call for some Con (Acting) rolls. smile.gif

The spell is the costume, but whoever's wearing that costume still has to put on a performance.


So basically, the mage appears as the executive with the slouch and limp and through an appropriate Disguise(?) check is the mage able to work through his limp and adopt the stature of the executive.

So basically, you agree with the problem I see with these spells. They only make you look like the person and not appear to be the person requiring further effort in order to fool everything.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 15 2013, 09:05 AM) *
As a GM, I would rule that the assertiveness and lack of a limp, would be call for some Con (Acting) rolls. smile.gif

The spell is the costume, but whoever's wearing that costume still has to put on a performance.


Kind of hard to put on a Performance when you do not even know what the Performance should be. Which brings us back to Biometrics. If you have to make a Performance (as you so eloquently state) for things you may be unaware of, how the hell is the spell covering Biometrics. The short answer is that it doesn't (and shouldn't). smile.gif
_Pax._
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 15 2013, 11:31 AM) *
Kind of hard to put on a Performance when you do not even know what the Performance should be. Which brings us back to Biometrics. If you have to make a Performance (as you so eloquently state) for things you may be unaware of, how the hell is the spell covering Biometrics. The short answer is that it doesn't (and shouldn't). smile.gif

Oh, I agree. If you can GET the biometric data, though, the spell should be capable of handling that. A good set of mundane disguise equipment could, after all.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 15 2013, 09:47 AM) *
Oh, I agree. If you can GET the biometric data, though, the spell should be capable of handling that. A good set of mundane disguise equipment could, after all.


No doubt... But the obtaining is the difficult part of that scenario. smile.gif
And as for the magic working for that, I tend to allow it, but only with customized Manipulation Spells, rather than the Physical Mask Spell. *shrug*
NiL_FisK_Urd
Yeah, you have to get the biometric data in a format your mind can process (nearly impossible, esp. a DNA sensor), because magic can't access a database.
_Pax._
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 15 2013, 12:12 PM) *
Yeah, you have to get the biometric data in a format your mind can process (nearly impossible, esp. a DNA sensor), because magic can't access a database.

'trodes, the data, and an appropriate knowsoft. smile.gif

Or, you know, a bit of hair, a drop of blood, some other such thing. Then tell the magic, "copy this bit here". smile.gif
NiL_FisK_Urd
Have fun processing 3,27 × 10^9 base pairs.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Indeed... Never actually tried to mimic someone's DNA... *shrug*
_Pax._
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 15 2013, 12:24 PM) *
Have fun processing 3,27 × 10^9 base pairs.

Look at all the Geneware that relates to DNA. Even the scanner itself doesn't try to process the ENTIRE strand of DNA. It looks for a few key markers; the higher the scanner rating, probably the more bits of data it looks at. But if you can learn what the scanner looks at, you can just mimic THOSE particular bits of data. *shrug*

And that would clearly, IMO, be a case of an opposed test, comparing the mage's initial successes with the spell against the scanner's roll.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 15 2013, 10:29 AM) *
Look at all the Geneware that relates to DNA. Even the scanner itself doesn't try to process the ENTIRE strand of DNA. It looks for a few key markers; the higher the scanner rating, probably the more bits of data it looks at. But if you can learn what the scanner looks at, you can just mimic THOSE particular bits of data. *shrug*

And that would clearly, IMO, be a case of an opposed test, comparing the mage's initial successes with the spell against the scanner's roll.


Which you cannot do (by RAW), since Scanners are Devices, and therefore do not get to roll against the spell. smile.gif
_Pax._
That .... thatw ould be a flaw in the rules, IMO. And would thus be cause for a houserule.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 15 2013, 10:37 AM) *
That .... thatw ould be a flaw in the rules, IMO. And would thus be cause for a houserule.


Considering this entire interpretation of Illusions is Houserule teritory, why not...
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jan 15 2013, 06:29 PM) *
Look at all the Geneware that relates to DNA. Even the scanner itself doesn't try to process the ENTIRE strand of DNA. It looks for a few key markers; the higher the scanner rating, probably the more bits of data it looks at. But if you can learn what the scanner looks at, you can just mimic THOSE particular bits of data. *shrug*

And that would clearly, IMO, be a case of an opposed test, comparing the mage's initial successes with the spell against the scanner's roll.


Depends on the speed of sequencing technology. The "Human Genome Project" needed about 10 years to fully sequence the human genome. "Illumina" sequencing can do it in ~1-2 days. What about 2070?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012