If New Coke didn't kill Coca-cola co..... lol And as pointed out the diversification would mitigate the damage even more.
I agree it's bad. I totally see where the writers were going. I think it was exaggerated (( It's a role playing game. Things ARE going to be exaggerated, X 100!)). My problem is it seems to be exaggerated X1,000,000, vs just x100.
Can I see the horrible malfunctioning gun make people question their next gun purchase? Sure. I can dig it. Can I see a bad gun purchase make people question the victory clothing line? No. Stop buying Ares bread or soy-meat? No. Or make the military suddenly yank it's contracts? No. Those contracts usually have so many millions and millions in kickbacks, that the product is almost if not quite literally free to the governments in question. Nor would I see one bad gun, suddenly make people rush to the banks to trade in their corp script for something else.
A string of bad guns.. 5.. 10 horrible releases, assault rifles and pistols or shotguns. Just gun after gun after gun. I could see that truly affecting a company as THAT would erode customer confidence, but one bad product, is.. well. Just one bad product. Unless it's your first or second product ever, it's not going to suddenly throw you under the dragon. Ares has decades of being reliable and the ultimate gun co. One product failure, even one you'd spent millions on, wouldn't ripple THIS badly.
Full Version: Storm Front is out!
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Mar 20 2013, 09:56 PM) 
It's even dumb from a purely gun perspective. H&K, Colt, Armalite, Smith & Wesson... these are all household names in firearms, and all have produced at least one really, really shitty gun over their history that somehow utterly failed to significantly hurt them. None of these companies are even 1% as diversified as the assets of a AAA Megacorp.
Hell, yeah. After the M16 was fielded in Vietnam in 1965, there were so many reports of dead soldiers with a jammed M16 next to their body that the story went up to the Congress and Time Magazine. Colt? Still around.QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 21 2013, 12:31 AM)
Or make the military suddenly yank it's contracts? No. Those contracts usually have so many millions and millions in kickbacks, that the product is almost if not quite literally free to the governments in question. Nor would I see one bad gun, suddenly make people rush to the banks to trade in their corp script for something else.
Actually, most corp contracts are not even that easy to get out of. You have the whole infrastructure hanging on the vendor's support, and you need new versions, updates, etc. Whenever you move into a new area, you have to choose your vendor's solution because only it works with the tech you already have. So switching to another vendor's stuff is a major project that's costing you a lot, even omitting the costs of breaking long-term contracts or dropping long-term common projects.That is especially funny with Ares losing contracts, say, in space. Come on, companies might reconsider using Ares brand rockets to go up the well, but finding a new supplier, signing intercorp contracts, doing all the tech prep work for the launches making everything work together is taking months if not years, and THAT is when Ares bottom line can be hit.
One needs to ask themselves:
If this gun has a 1 in 6 chance (or 2/3rd in SA mode) to work properly ... HOW in the name of all that is Quality Assurance, did it even get into production? The premise is just plain stupid.
If this gun has a 1 in 6 chance (or 2/3rd in SA mode) to work properly ... HOW in the name of all that is Quality Assurance, did it even get into production? The premise is just plain stupid.
It was too busy bleeding to object!
QUOTE (Ixal @ Mar 20 2013, 02:11 PM)
I really wonder what Frosty and Erhan said to him to get him call off his big, rage fulled "I don't care if the world dies" revenge crusade so close to the climax (or not that close if you believe Puck).
Based on some of the fiction in previous books that was leading up to this, well...
His motivation here was revenge due to Aina Dupree dying when Ghostwalker closed the Rift. But based on the short stories that had him talking with people like Lugh Surehand and, for that matter, Ghostwalker, she's not actually dead, and he's the only one who doesn't know it. File this one under Poor Communication Kills, perhaps?
For reference, Ghostwalker actually acknowledges in his little bit of fiction that Harley wouldn't listen to him. Surehand doesn't figure out what the deal is until after he leaves, if I remember right.
[ Spoiler ]
Quick side note on Ancient Files: you're in luck if you decide to browse them today: my home ISP has been dead for a week, leaving me with only my LTE provider's access over the pad (and thus, obviously, the Ancient Files went offline along with my home server). Everything's back starting today.
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 20 2013, 07:49 PM)
One needs to ask themselves:
If this gun has a 1 in 6 chance (or 2/3rd in SA mode) to work properly ... HOW in the name of all that is Quality Assurance, did it even get into production? The premise is just plain stupid.
If this gun has a 1 in 6 chance (or 2/3rd in SA mode) to work properly ... HOW in the name of all that is Quality Assurance, did it even get into production? The premise is just plain stupid.
It's actually covered. The problems where there, and some where along the line, the email went out to go into full production and they'd 'fix it in manufacturing' and on the manufacturing side, they got no notes to fix anything, so they were making the guns 100% to Spec.
It's just that the specs that were given, were horribly flawed. It's directly stated that it had to be sabotage of some sort. Internal or external (Shadowrun) As the "Go ahead" order never originated from anyone on the design, or manufacture side.
I can't speak with 100% conviction, but most (real life) guns I know get fired once, in quality control. They often will pack the shell in with new firearms. So on manufacturing side, if the first shot is fine, it's fine. While the stats for the Excalibur do have a 1 in 3 chance of shooting fine, it's probably after they've been broken in. That 'First shot" Will likely work most every time. It's the second or third magazine when it starts breaking down.
Yes. 'Covered'.
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 20 2013, 07:51 PM)
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 20 2013, 08:14 PM)
Yes. 'Covered'.
"Addressed" ?
QUOTE (Nath @ Mar 21 2013, 09:57 AM)
Hell, yeah. After the M16 was fielded in Vietnam in 1965, there were so many reports of dead soldiers with a jammed M16 next to their body that the story went up to the Congress and Time Magazine. Colt? Still around.
History's full of this sort of thing. Note that not only is Colt still around, but they kept selling M16s, even though it took many, many years before it ended up being a halfway-decent product. So not only are they still around, but they still sold that exact same weapon.
(Also see: Halliburton's subsidiary, KBR. After building military bases with faulty wiring that, among other things, caused the death of service personnel in showers, they continued getting contracts to build US military bases.)
A problem a lot of people have in fiction is understanding scale. Star Wars is rife with this, too (such as single planets that produce the majority of the galaxy's <x>). Shadowrun features corporations with massive GDPs -- scale is important to remember, but easy to forget.
A current example: the F-35 is under attack on many fronts, and may end up being a lemon. It's an enormous project, far bigger than any rifle -- and no-one is talking about Lockheed-Martin going under because of it. L-M might, worse comes to worst, need to cop a loss on it. Chances re they'll still make an enormous profit, just not as big a one as they were hoping to.
Ares could hand out gun-shaped grenades that are set off by pulling the trigger, and sell them as guns, and this STILL wouldn't sink them.
[ Spoiler ]
As to the Colt example... They were still using the M1911 at the time, were they not?
The reason Puck is on Jackpoint, from Conspiracy Theories.
Also cause I like him.
QUOTE
Part of the reason he recruited Puck was to ensure that there weren’t other means that he couldn’t predict that technomancers might be able to find.
Also cause I like him.
QUOTE (Inu @ Mar 21 2013, 04:44 AM)
A current example: the F-35 is under attack on many fronts, and may end up being a lemon. It's an enormous project, far bigger than any rifle -- and no-one is talking about Lockheed-Martin going under because of it. L-M might, worse comes to worst, need to cop a loss on it. Chances re they'll still make an enormous profit, just not as big a one as they were hoping to.
Actually, it was my understand they're making a profit working for the govt regardless of the outcome, no?Anyway, frankly, the whole Excalibur debacle is less silly than Knight's latest research. Seriously? After all the previous history Ares had? He of all people should know better.
I agree you'd think the Azzies would be the ones to play with that fire. With their (word I don't know) for dangerous magic.
[ Spoiler ]
The user stupidity point: Apparently, based on the text, people actually did that. See: The opening of the chapter.
It's also important to note that since their problem is doubt, proof is irrelevant.
It's also important to note that since their problem is doubt, proof is irrelevant.
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 20 2013, 09:29 PM)
The user stupidity point: Apparently, based on the text, people actually did that. See: The opening of the chapter.
Now he knows why one doesn't do that! Proof of point!
Course.. the fool went into a house with manifested bug spirits alone too... gotta say he wasn't long for the world either way. lol.
Yep. The point, though, is that as stupid as it is, people thought that they could get away with it because its Ares, which makes the damage a lot worse.
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 20 2013, 10:44 PM)
Yep. The point, though, is that as stupid as it is, people thought that they could get away with it because its Ares, which makes the damage a lot worse.
Mmmmm, yes.... Stupid People make everything worse for the rest of us.
Just finished First Among Equals
The Artful Dodger, and
Sleeping with the Enemy
First Among Equals.
The Artful Dodger
Sleeping with the Enemy:
Patrick. Good work man.
The Artful Dodger, and
Sleeping with the Enemy
First Among Equals.
[ Spoiler ]
The Artful Dodger
[ Spoiler ]
Sleeping with the Enemy:
Patrick. Good work man.
[ Spoiler ]
First Among Equals
Artful Dodger
Sleeping with the Enemy - just want to echo that this one was a very good read.
[ Spoiler ]
Artful Dodger
[ Spoiler ]
Sleeping with the Enemy - just want to echo that this one was a very good read.
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 20 2013, 08:02 AM)
Trying once more to get things back to Storm Front: Does anyone have any theories as to what, exactly, the thing that is the subject of the Cracks chapter actually is? Any suggestions for how a GM might go about introducing such a thing into his game? I'm very much planning on doing just that, but not sure how I want to go about it yet.
Is it annoying that no such mechanics were included? YMMV (I certainly didn't expect them to stat the new SR5 stuff in Storm Front), but clearly we can't have that discussion and stay on topic. So please don't. Or if you must, take it to another thread.
Is it annoying that no such mechanics were included? YMMV (I certainly didn't expect them to stat the new SR5 stuff in Storm Front), but clearly we can't have that discussion and stay on topic. So please don't. Or if you must, take it to another thread.
I had a dork idea the other night during an insomnia flare-up. What if SEARCH is something akin to the old helper program used during the first Crash period to battle the first virus? I also had to ask something weird. Goes with the whole 'Metasapients Rights' argument really. Can an AI "die" and become an eGhost???
QUOTE (NeoJudas @ Mar 21 2013, 02:01 AM)
I had a dork idea the other night during an insomnia flare-up. What if SEARCH is something akin to the old helper program used during the first Crash period to battle the first virus? I also had to ask something weird. Goes with the whole 'Metasapients Rights' argument really. Can an AI "die" and become an eGhost???
I have a worse idea for you...What if Clippy became an AI?
First Among Equals
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 21 2013, 01:58 AM)
Artful Dodger
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 21 2013, 01:58 AM)
Sleeping with the Enemy - just want to echo that this one was a very good read.
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (Ixal @ Mar 20 2013, 08:07 PM)
The people in the real world already have a very low attention span. How do you think it will be in the 6th world where you are bombarded by ads every second of the day and instant gratification becomes even more exploited by the companies?
Besides, you do not throw your old Ares gun into the recycler because the new one is a pile of crap. No, you do something far worse (from Ares pov). You keep it and don't buy a new one. They do not make any money with that. Or you go to the competitor when you need your "gun fix". People who bought Ares for their whole life would now look what the competitors have to offer.
Besides, you do not throw your old Ares gun into the recycler because the new one is a pile of crap. No, you do something far worse (from Ares pov). You keep it and don't buy a new one. They do not make any money with that. Or you go to the competitor when you need your "gun fix". People who bought Ares for their whole life would now look what the competitors have to offer.
Probably like how, IRL, nobody will buy Microsoft again with their 360 Red Ring of Death, or Windows Vista?
Or like anybody will ever buy a Mercedes again with their Class A first model failure?
IRL at least, you need a streak a poor quality product to hurt a compagnie's rep'
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 21 2013, 01:49 AM)
One needs to ask themselves:
If this gun has a 1 in 6 chance (or 2/3rd in SA mode) to work properly ... HOW in the name of all that is Quality Assurance, did it even get into production? The premise is just plain stupid.
If this gun has a 1 in 6 chance (or 2/3rd in SA mode) to work properly ... HOW in the name of all that is Quality Assurance, did it even get into production? The premise is just plain stupid.
Totally agree.
Whatever is written to explain that, it's just idiotic.
But I guess it's easy to adress IG: that malfunction starts to occur after a month of use for exemple (or less in case of intensive use).
Actually, it makes sense.
[ Spoiler ]
Because, you have like million products done day 0? Failure at serial number xxx, call them back and change them with fixed product.
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Mar 21 2013, 04:15 AM)
Because, you have like million products done day 0? Failure at serial number xxx, call them back and change them with fixed product.
So the manufacturing order was messed with too to ensure a massive initial production run. Not that hard to imagine.
Yes. Yes, it is too hard to imagine. Hence, the statement that the premise is stupid.
It requires a massive amount of suspension of disbelief and only works in the pinkest of mohawk worlds.
It requires a massive amount of suspension of disbelief and only works in the pinkest of mohawk worlds.
So, they can cause the product to be sent to manufacturing, but influencing the size of the manufacturing run is too much?
It's not a massive suspension of disbelief. Someone hired a hacker for the specific purpose of inserting communications (and probably keeping questions from reaching the wrong place) to cause the Excalibur to go to a large production run. What's so hard to believe about that?
It's not a massive suspension of disbelief. Someone hired a hacker for the specific purpose of inserting communications (and probably keeping questions from reaching the wrong place) to cause the Excalibur to go to a large production run. What's so hard to believe about that?
Because it is not a small arms producer. It is ARES. A megacorporation that is apparently first incapable of communicating with a load of production sites, THEN can't pull a flawed production before churning out billions of guns that can't shoot straight, and THEN selling a shitload of them, and is THEN incapable of giving out a product recall.
If you seriously don't see the flaw in this line of thinking, I recommend taking off your rose tinted glasses.
If you seriously don't see the flaw in this line of thinking, I recommend taking off your rose tinted glasses.
**EDIT**
snip - talking bollocks
entirely plausible and possible that Ares didn't consider a faulty line to be worth a full recall.
but agree with all above, no way a AAA takes a dive over a fault, there has to be more to it
snip - talking bollocks
entirely plausible and possible that Ares didn't consider a faulty line to be worth a full recall.
but agree with all above, no way a AAA takes a dive over a fault, there has to be more to it
edit: redacted, was in reference to bollocks 
Oh, I'm sure that they COULD have done a recall - they clearly chose not to, because it wasn't their cheapest option (seriously, recalls are only done when they're cheaper than the price of not doing one). Once a shitload of the things were made, it seems a business decision was made to attempt to recoup as much of the cost as possible through large volume up front sales. Or do you seriously think they wouldn't have tried to get some of their money back?
Additionally, there is literally no such thing as perfect system security. And because there isn't, it's entirely possible that someone (or a team) extremely capable found their way in; after which they took extremely low grade actions that wouldn't likely be noticed in security audits because they look like normal behaviour for whichever user. Maybe Horizon used some of their brainwashed technomancers.
I think you've misidentified who has the overly rosy view here.
Additionally, there is literally no such thing as perfect system security. And because there isn't, it's entirely possible that someone (or a team) extremely capable found their way in; after which they took extremely low grade actions that wouldn't likely be noticed in security audits because they look like normal behaviour for whichever user. Maybe Horizon used some of their brainwashed technomancers.
I think you've misidentified who has the overly rosy view here.
Sure. Rationalize lazy writing all you want.
The fact remains, it is a gun that is working correctly in only 1 of 6 cases.
If you intend to fire such a gun in a combat situation anywhere, you, as the end user, first test it (which means, btw, firing it). Then you realize it's shit, take it back to the shop and say "I want my money back".*
Just look at the internet shitstorms that happen today already over faulty products that are way less likely to kill you.
A load of examples have been already stated and Apple is still not going down for almost killing people with their maps (Australian police warned about the app being a health hazard for leading people into dangerous wilderness).
If you want, you can make it work. Sure. But the mohawk is pink, and nothing you can say will change that.
*This does not count if you're an army. Then you take that shitty M-16-SA-80bur and give it to your soldiers.
The fact remains, it is a gun that is working correctly in only 1 of 6 cases.
If you intend to fire such a gun in a combat situation anywhere, you, as the end user, first test it (which means, btw, firing it). Then you realize it's shit, take it back to the shop and say "I want my money back".*
Just look at the internet shitstorms that happen today already over faulty products that are way less likely to kill you.
A load of examples have been already stated and Apple is still not going down for almost killing people with their maps (Australian police warned about the app being a health hazard for leading people into dangerous wilderness).
If you want, you can make it work. Sure. But the mohawk is pink, and nothing you can say will change that.
*This does not count if you're an army. Then you take that shitty M-16-SA-80bur and give it to your soldiers.
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 21 2013, 11:27 AM)
*This does not count if you're an army. Then you take that shitty M-16-SA-80bur and give it to your soldiers.
That part was not bollocks
damn their eyes.it does strike me as a bit of a far fetched "We need something big to shake up the setting, We've had dragons, we've had meteors ... I Know ... lets kill off ARES!"
can you imagine the looks of "WTF?!" at that creative writing meeting ?!
I have no problems with a megacorp going down, tbh. It has been done before. The falls of Fuchi, Cross Applied Technologies and Novatech were a lot more plausible and well executed.
But having people not buy cereal anymore after ALL OF THE guns failed in some PR spawned Desert Wars somewhere in the middle east? Yeah ... No.
But having people not buy cereal anymore after ALL OF THE guns failed in some PR spawned Desert Wars somewhere in the middle east? Yeah ... No.
Like the dragon conflict, the Amazonia/Aztlan war, the Denver shakeup, and the artifacts plotline, the Ares plot is a good idea by itself. Absolutely nothing wrong with making a mega shake or even fall. But there's ideas and there's their execution, and CGL again shows it cannot deliver there (orr ather, certain writers seem to be too lazy to deliver). Like all the other ideas, it is turned into a train wreck by lazy writing and nonexistent content editing and care for the line.
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 21 2013, 01:48 AM)
Actually, most corp contracts are not even that easy to get out of.
Exactly. Large-scale procurements constantly end up with enormous cost overruns and arrive years late, but it's not like the company which did not deliver in time gets fired. In fact it does not even have an effect on future offers or public reputation, the company/consortium pays a token amount in damages ("if you fine us too much we'll have to lay off people") and that's it.
Weapons are as highly political business anyway, and weapons procurement programs often more economic stimulus than actual transactions on a free market. Even weapons performance often is secondary to them being produced by producers favored by the governent (or local manufacturers, if present). See the M-16, F-35, Rafale, A400M ...
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 21 2013, 06:06 AM)
Because it is not a small arms producer. It is ARES. A megacorporation that is apparently first incapable of communicating with a load of production sites, THEN can't pull a flawed production before churning out billions of guns that can't shoot straight, and THEN selling a shitload of them, and is THEN incapable of giving out a product recall.
If you seriously don't see the flaw in this line of thinking, I recommend taking off your rose tinted glasses.
If you seriously don't see the flaw in this line of thinking, I recommend taking off your rose tinted glasses.
Well, there's always this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1u0LlIDQKM
Good point, Wakshaani
On the other hand, Portal is a mohawk game in a crapsack world and Aperture is an always 2nd place kind of corporation that's not even that big in the context of said world
But hilariously insane
On the other hand, Portal is a mohawk game in a crapsack world and Aperture is an always 2nd place kind of corporation that's not even that big in the context of said world
But hilariously insane
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 21 2013, 12:58 AM)
First Among Equals
[ Spoiler ]
Yes, it's a different one with unfortunately similar initials.
Prince Jake Foster is an ork, born and bred in Portland's orkish ghettoes, and a major liberal/progressive reformer in current Tir politics. Land of Promise outlines the various Princes in the months leading up to the election, Storm Front had to handle their election itself (to keep things sympatico with their election schedule and where it fell on the timeline, it couldn't be in LoP or even Dirty Tricks).
I find it hilarious that people who critisize CGL over one sloppy book argue that a company can't lose it's face and reputation over one sloppy product.
And yes, i understand the difference between small publishing company and transnational megacorp. Still, the irony is sweet.
And yes, i understand the difference between small publishing company and transnational megacorp. Still, the irony is sweet.
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Mar 20 2013, 11:43 AM)
@Patrick, Bad things in correlation to the direction you want to take with the infected, or just bad for them?
Not 100% sure I understand the question, but it's been that kind of a day so far.
Much of the bad stuff for the Infected, as far as the disease is concerned, have happened and are filtering down. There are still bad things happening to individuals, of course, and some communities are facing issues. There's the deal in Asamando to deal with, and that could get ugly fast. Fear the Dark is still out there (and we get to meet the lady who coins that term in "Sail Away Sweet Sister," if I ever get the chance to finish it with all the other stuff going on right now), so that needs to get resolved. Something happens in a small town in Texas at some point down the road. Thomas McAllister has a tough row to hoe coming up. Infected rights has taken a good solid shot to the tender parts.
As far as what I'm doing to the Infected, I think the worst is over. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that it's time to try and clean up.
QUOTE
Also Im starting to suspect Nath is an AI, the amount of hard raw data you produces is scary...
Oh, hell, we could have told you that....
QUOTE (Angelone @ Mar 20 2013, 08:16 PM)
I agree you'd think the Azzies would be the ones to play with that fire. With their (word I don't know) for dangerous magic.
I think the word you're looking for is "penchant." I could be wrong, but don't think I am.
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 20 2013, 10:30 PM)
Sleeping with the Enemy:
Patrick. Good work man.
Patrick. Good work man.
Thanks; glad you enjoyed it.
How much worse? I could be a real jackass and make it a lot worse, but as I said elsewhere, I think we're getting close to the bottom on that ride. I'm much more about rebuilding than tearing down, in spite of what some people might think about me and what I'm doing.
As for a non-feral wendigo: Most of them aren't, but yeah, I'll see what I can do.
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 20 2013, 11:58 PM)
Sleeping with the Enemy - just want to echo that this one was a very good read.
Again, thanks. Glad you enjoyed the ride.
QUOTE
[ Spoiler ]
Yeah, looking back, I probably should have done something about that for Storm Front, but I'm not thinking it should be anything horrendous to cobble together for transitional purposes.
[ Spoiler ]
Does that help? It's not official, but it's how I'd wind up house-ruling it.
Question: How old is /dev/ by Storm Front?
She was born in '57 (according to Artifacts Unbound), it's '75 in Storm Front, so she's around 17-18. Way to go for a teen to track down Kane
Edit: confused the book, the date still accurate
Edit: confused the book, the date still accurate
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