And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda, by Eric Bogle
Rendition by Liam Clancy

-------

Now when I was a young man, I carried me pack,
And I lived the free life of the rover.
From the Morray's green basin, to the dusty Outback,
I waltzed my Matilda all over.

Then in 1915, my country said, "Son,
It's time to stop ramblin' - there's work to be done."
So they gave me a tin hat, and they gave me a gun,
And they sent me away to the war.

And the band played Waltzing Matilda,
As the ship pulled away from the quay,
And amid all the tears, flag-waving and cheers,
We sailed off for Gallipoli.

Well I remember that terrible day,
When our blood stained the sand and the water,
And how, in that Hell, that the called Suvla Bay,
We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.

Jonny Turk, he was ready - oh, he primed himself well.
He rained us with bullets, and he showered us with shell.
And in five minutes flat, we were all blown to Hell.
Nearly blew us back home to Australia.

And the band played Waltzing Matilda,
When we stopped to bury our slain,
And we buried ours, and the Turks bury theirs,
Then it started all over again.

Those who were living just tried to survive,
In that mad world of blood, death, and fire.
And for ten weary weeks, I kepy myself alive,
Though around me the corpses piled higher.

Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head,
And when I awoke in me hospital bed,
And saw what it had done, then I wished I were dead.
I never knew there were worse things than dying.

For no more I'll go Waltzing Matilda,
All around the green bush far and free.
For to hump tent and pegs, a man needs both legs.
No more Waltzing Matilda for me.

They collected the wounded, the crippled, the maimed,
And they sent us back home to Australia.
The armless, legless, the blind, the insane,
Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla.

And when the ship pulled into Circular Quay,
I looked at the place where me legs used to be,
And thanked Christ there was no one there waiting for me,
To grieve, and to mourn, and to pity.

And the band played Waltzing Matilda,
As they carried us down the gangway,
But nobody cheered. They just stood there, and stared.
Then they turned all their faces away.

So now, every April, I sit on me porch,
And I watch the parade pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march,
Renewing their dreams of past glory.

I see the old men, all tired stiff and sore,
The weary old heroes of a forgotten war,
And the young people ask, "What are they marching for?"
And I ask myself the same question.

And the band plays Waltzing,
And the old men still answer the call.
But as year follows year, more old men disappear.
Someday no one will march there at all.

Waltzing Matilda...
Waltzing Matilda...
Who'll come a-waltzing, Matilda, with me?
And their ghosts, may be heard,
As they march by the billabong,
Who'll come a-waltzing, Matilda...
...with me?

-------

Any Nation's Zenith: Armistice & Coexistance

~Umi

Lest we forget.

ANZAC Day always makes me miss my grandfather.

A sad song indeed.

"Those heroes that shed their blood
And lost their lives.
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.
Therefore rest in peace.
There is no difference between the Johnnies
And the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side
Here in this country of ours.
You, the mothers,
Who sent their sons from far away countries
Wipe away your tears,
Your sons are now lying in our bosom
And are in peace
After having lost their lives on this land they have
Become our sons as well."

~Kemal Atatürk, addressing the first Australians, New Zealanders and British to visit the Gallipoli battlefields, 1934.

I read Gallipoli by Les Carlyon years ago, along with some treatments on the battle details (can't remember which book I've read too many on warfare). I always found it fascinating that the European Powers completely ignored the lessons of the American Civil War. The death tolls in the Civil War were ridiculous, and combined with another 50 years of weapons development it made WWI the meatgrinder that it was.

I know this is a meaningful day for many, but this thread is off topic and we have been getting complaints about that particular issue (off-topic threads). Please stick the the TOS. Thanks!

As the thread author, purely for sake of clarity and future convenience, what's the official decision on where exactly this should have been posted? Posts of this nature don't really fall under any of the specific Dumpshock subforum categories currently available. Should we simply not make such posts on this site?

~Umi

Umi--Try linking the discussion into SR's world. Are remnants of ANZAC day still celebrated in Australia? How about the UCAS--did they keep Veteran's Day and Memorial day from old US tradition or a different day? Which Thanksgiving do they celebrate in the UCAS?

ANZAC is the name of the military force occupying Papua. Not sure if this is related, but it probably is.

For such posts, like the Beef Jerky thread (which has been moved there since, interestingly), and the Neraph thread, usually General Gaming seems to be used.

Not at all, is the answer.

It's probably a big thing for you, but one country celebrating their veterans is the other countries sore spot. See Japanese ministers visiting a grave.

Mind that I'm not opposed, per se. Just pointing it out. I can ignore threads I have no interest in.

You'll note, bannockburn, that there actually was no discussion of politics, religion, or sex.

Also, if you read carefully, you'll note no one celebrated any specific country or their veterans - quite the opposite, really.

That said, if I receive an official directive on where to post such materials in the future, I'll follow it, even if the directive is to not post such materials to this site. I'd personally find that latter option to be most regrettable and sad, but I'd at least accept it and honor it.

~Umi

War is politics, if you like it or not. Previous wars are politics, too.

All I'm saying is, it may be a sensitive topic, and it is most assuredly not SR related, as this forum is named.

Peace is also politics, by that logic.

That aside, as I said, I'll follow any official directive provided. Personally I'd like to see a "General Discussion" subforum added, because I enjoy this community as a community in addition to being an SR resource.

~Umi

AN off topic board has been tried several times over the years. It always ends in tears.

Huh. Curious that it doesn't work here, when it works fine for other forums sites I go to... I dunno, maybe the atmosphere and dispositions of the users in those forums are different in comparison to the ones here.

Or maybe the users are much more homogenous.

What, the users here or the ones on other forums that have more off-topic discussions?

The users whereever else, of course.

To make it more obvious than my gentle approach above:

To have the discussion be on topic, link the discussion into SR's world. Are remnants of ANZAC day still celebrated in Australia? How about the UCAS--did they keep Veteran's Day and Memorial day from old US tradition or a different day? Which Thanksgiving do they celebrate in the UCAS?

I always felt that the SR3 rules for firearms combat could be used for a good Vietnam War game.

A Flak Jacket (ballistic nylon and steel plates) provides 1 ballistic and 4 impact armor, but then have low-velocity stuff, like shrapnel from grenades or other small explosive munitions do Impact, so the Flak Jacket can protect against that.

I'd start with a 1911, say, doing 6M damage, and then to keep things deadly and Vietnamilicious, I'd assign a damage code of 9M for ARs and AKs in semi-auto mode. A draugunov, mosin nagant, or M40A1 would do 12 S. Thereby the Flak Jacket would be better than nothing vs. handguns, but would be pretty crappy vs. rifles. Automatic fire would generally rip you to shreds which is consistent which what I've read in a lot of Vietnam war memoirs.

I've always felt that a historical Vietnam war campaign using SR3 combat, whether we're talking ANZAC, US military, ROK marines, or what have you could be a great use for the deadly SR3 combat system. The deadliness would be offset somewhat by poor visibility in most cases, heavy vegetation everywhere, no smartlinks, no vision mag except on scoped rifles, etc.

There's even rules for permanent injury after a Deadly Wound, white phosphorous, parachuting, air support using vehicle rules, and so on.

I think you could have a very gripping, mature campaign if you wanted to using SR3 in Vietnam.

The idea of celebrating war dead is probably going to be carried on. Memorial day in CFS, UCAS and CSA, Armistice day in the UK. Likewise the australians would keep the recognition of the Australian New Zealand Army corp- it commeorates not just those who died but the momment australia stepped onto the world stage as a natino in its own right as an ally of Britain, not a colony. I don't know if Germany France, Italy or Russia have such days. I suspect the NAN may also keep Memorial day-they were use to it on the calendar and they also had men killed in uniform so it would kepe that tradiaiton rather than trying to force a new one.

The real interesting question would the Yakasuni (sp?) shrine in Japan. Created by the Meiji emporer is commeorates those who died in the service of the empire. There are two controversies around it.
1) It included the names of Koreans who were in the Japanese military in WW1 and WW2. The Koreans object, ineffect saying this is binding the souls of Koreans to eternal service for the invaders. The Japanese say they are honoring the Koreans as they would honor their own country men.

Far more serious
2) In the 1970's the leaders of the shrines veered into the far right political groups and secretly enshirned in the shrine were the remains of 7 war criminals tried and executed by the allies after WW2 for crimes against humanity. Other asian powers, botrh Korean's and China, object ot the visit to the shrine saying this is now supporting these men who led the invasions of their lands and the tortures of their people.

The interesting element for this is SR is the view of the Imperial family. We'd think with a reborned agressive Japanese mepiure that it would not be an issue but when the war criminals were added to the shrine, the emperor Hirohito, the spiritual leader of Japan,, the man who led Japan in the war, stopped visiting the shrine and refused all requests to visit. This has been continued by his son Akihito and will probably be continued by his western educated sons.

So would the powerful Emperors contiune to ignor the shrine? Would the shrine become holy? Toxic? Would the war criminals be removedf or would it be the center of a power struggle, just as it is today?

For Vietnam- I talked to a friend of my father's who was there. He said most GI's wore helmets but not vests as they were too encumbering for too little protection in the jungle heat. Men in fixed locations, like artillery men and bases that were subject to motar and occassional counter battery fire would hear helmets and vests. Rangers and Green Beret's would weither neither vests nor helmets.

You can also see that in Clint Eastwood's "Heartbreak Ridge" set in the 1983 invasion of Grenada- line troops wearing better quality vests and helmets-kevelar was there-but the recon troops who had to move fast and light were just in fatigues and slouch hats.

I'd think the NAN have the day Howling Coyote led them from the US death camps as a memorial day in all NAN nations, though attendance and celebrations might vary greatly, from lackluster to ignored (Tshimshian, Aztlan) to dutifully carried out, but with little importance given to it (most NAN, such as PCC, SSC, AMC, Athabascan, though importance may drop sharply with Pueblo assimilating Los Angeles County) to paranoid, over-patriotic fervor - think US and Independence day or Israel and Holocaust Memorial day rolled into one, for the Sioux Nation and the annexed Ute territorry in the PCC. There could even be violence and riots in the PCC, as the Ute celebrate their annual kick-a-paleface day in an increasingly pinkskinned PCC.

Quebec probably also has it's own Fête Nationale at whenever they gained indepedence.

Japan in shadowrun should act with all the tact, care and interest in good neighbourhood contemporary China shows - so the Yasokuni shrine probably is a symbol of the Yamato ideal, and probably also racial purity, given Japan wears the evil fascist hat in SR.

I wonder, however, how the US' remnants deal with their crushing defeats - after all, the US goes into panic mode for far less than other nations already and isn't exactly used to losing wars that badly. I always wondered why there're not more reconstructionist policlubs, rabid patriot groups and dedicated indian killers (Andrew Jackson memorial militias?) in the UCAS and CAS. Huamnis in the early books also had an anti-magic, anti-Indian flavor, but that was quickly dropped. Especially the "Real America", the CAS, should be riddled with them. I just cannot believe many Americans would take losing half their country to Indians in stride.

I can imagine the CAS making defiant celebrations out of every time they beat Mexico and every historical victory of the US, and those days being good days for non-whites, non-humans to hide someplace inconsopicious.

In order to avoid the powergamerism of all PCs wearing full armor at all times, I'd consider fleshing out encumbrance rules, or alternatively coming up with simple heat exhaustion/heatstroke rules that are applied if a character is considered unable to sweat effectively due to garb/armor/gear. Either use pre-existing environmental exposure rules, or else come up with your own that you feel you can make more medically accurate.

Because, yeah, in the interests of realism/verisimilitude, you it would be less than ideal that the whole platoon wears full armor at all times just because.

From reading lots of Vietnam War memoirs, I only know of one man who says he did that, and no one who states ever observing something like that. Of course, it probably saved that one man's life the one time he stepped on a mine but survived with only minor injuries. (Luck too, OFC.) That book was "Platoon Leader", which was an excellent read that I recommend to everyone.

Slouch hat, SLR, and Greens.

Cold War 30 caliber battle rifles were and still are SO manly.

When we lost the agricultural sectors of the economy and along with it our balls, crazy cowboy strength, knowledge of the outdoors, and inherent pain tolerance, we downgraded to ergonomic rifles in 5.56 NATO.

Someday, when I'm man enough, I'll own an antique FN FAL or M14 as a symbol of my having transcended contemporary flabby consumerism and depressive decadence.

That would just encourage them to get environmentally adapted full body powered armor. (aka no sweating, no encumbrance)

For me, being in the jungle is all about sweating. That's part of why slogging around in there is athletically challenging and manly. You should look like you fell in the river because all your clothes are drenched with sweat. (Bring sports drink and/or electrolyte tabs.)

Who wants to be in an air conditioned iron maiden?

Ideally for a Vietnam themed game, you should run a bunch of humidifiers in the game room and turn on the heaters. Serve cans of Chef Boyardee spaghetti and meatballs with Yukon crackers, and maybe let a couple of mosquitoes in. Serve tepid kool aid and water treated with iodine in green surplus canteens.

That would be evocative and badass to the extreme.

From a role playing perspective, and even a social studies type of perspective, I have to ask...when we look at wars past, were the men manlier?

I think about the youth of World War I. If you go and read memoirs of the Battle of Ypres, which was the first time chemical weapons had been used, you'll discover that even in the face of a terrifying and unknown technological threat that the European dudes in the trenches held the line even while being initially hit with chlorine gas.

Compared to today's standards, their training, gear, and education would have been minimal. And yet they exhibited stunning amounts of courage and determination, and for what?

Recall also how in those times, pretty much everyone was running with 30 cal bolt guns, and they would still do things like run across no man's land towards machine gun fortified trenches and the like.

Contrast this to the entitled, whiney, depressed youth of today. Not even speaking of the tremendous feats of sacrifice and courage described above, a lot of today's manchildren wouldn't even be man enough to properly shoulder and fire a 30 cal boltgun with a steel buttplate, either in terms of pain tolerance, or having the upper body strength to hold the rifle pointed in and steady for an extended period of time.

Somehow I can't help but think that western civilization has lost something it once stood for. We have less and less men, and more and more lethargic depressive gerbils with television sets who don't even have any cause that they'd be willing to go and face horrific science fiction death and disability for.

Not everyone, obviously. But lots of people.

I can't help but think that even ordinary people were fundamentally different in some ways, fifty years ago, in the west...

It's like if you want to role play a turn of the century character, there can be no griping, no emo-ness, no self-absorption like you might see in contemporary fictional characters.

I blame the white feather shortage.

OK, I'll bite. "What white feather shortage?"

During WWI women used to give white feathers (i.e chicken feathers) to men who were physically fit but did not volunteer to shame them into enlisting. Women don't do that anymore so I assume that means that there aren't enough feathers.