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Patrick Goodman
Here it is.

This should be interesting to watch....
BigMrE
I'll be honest, I'm sooooo not excited about the return of the priority system. I never liked it previously. Kind of just glanced over the preview after I saw that.
Black Swan
QUOTE (BigMrE @ May 31 2013, 02:17 AM) *
I'll be honest, I'm sooooo not excited about the return of the priority system. I never liked it previously. Kind of just glanced over the preview after I saw that.


I'm totally opposite. I loved it.
The_Dood
Love that the priority system is back and overall it looks like a solid character generation system will be in 5E.

Any word on if the 21 questions will be back?
Seerow
Just reading through, but had to stop to comment on this:

Trolls pay 50% more for all gear, including cyber/bio?

lmao, goodbye troll characters.
BigMrE
I'm just hoping it's not going to lead to a lot of cookie cutter type characters that I remember from the other priority system.

I have to say that I really liked the flexibility that the point buy system gave, not being limited to where or how I could spend my points based on the priority system. But that's just my opinion.
Black Swan
QUOTE (BigMrE @ May 31 2013, 02:28 AM) *
I'm just hoping it's not going to lead to a lot of cookie cutter type characters that I remember from the other priority system.


It was only a cookie cuter type character generation system if you let it. smile.gif
Black Swan
The more I look into it, the more I like it. It's starting to feel more and more like old Shadowrun....


I think I messed myself. wobble.gif


Can I hope for a return of the skill web and alocatable dice pools?
BigMrE
QUOTE (Black Swan @ May 30 2013, 08:30 PM) *
It was only a cookie cuter type character generation system if you let it. smile.gif


That's true, but I don't like that you're told how many points you can spend where. That's really my main objection to it.
Black Swan
QUOTE (BigMrE @ May 31 2013, 02:34 AM) *
That's true, but I don't like that you're told how many points you can spend where. That's really my main objection to it.


Don't look at it as being told what to do, but rather someone just trying to help. smile.gif I suspect there will be qualities that you can buy that may adjust this.
Black Swan
My guess is that a lot of players complained about taking too long to make a character with the point system, so they made the priority system the default system again, and the point buy system will come back in a companion. Unfortunately you will have to wait. frown.gif
Mantis
I also don't like the priority system. It was innovative when it first came out in 1989. There have been better ways to do it since. I hope they include an alternative build system in the book or else get an alternative build system out pronto. For me this is a big turn off. And here I was getting excited by what I saw in the previous preview. Blah.
Black Swan
OK, I'm seeing grammar, spelling, and punctuation errors. Who do I inform?

Pg. 62

"The sidebar Common Character Concepts and their
Roles Explained gives you a snapshot of the character
types your most likely to find in the shadows."

Should read: "The sidebar Common Character Concepts and their
Roles Explained gives you a snapshot of the character
types you're most likely to find in the shadows."
BigMrE
But I am, by what priority I put certain things at. If I make Skills my highest priority, I get the 46 points there, and now I have to decide between attributes, racial bonus and nuyen (or magic if you want to play a mage).

And by cookie cutter previously, I meant that all spellcasters that make Priority A have a magic of 6, 2 magic skills at 5 and 10 spells. I no longer have the choice of making a non-aspected mage with a magic of 5.

I understand that it makes it easier for new players to get going and in the game faster, I (like I stated before) just like the level of customization that point buy offered.
BigMrE
QUOTE (Mantis @ May 30 2013, 08:42 PM) *
I also don't like the priority system. It was innovative when it first came out in 1989. There have been better ways to do it since. I hope they include an alternative build system in the book or else get an alternative build system out pronto. For me this is a big turn off. And here I was getting excited by what I saw in the previous preview. Blah.


Same here. Love the idea of limits, but really don't like the priority system.
BigMrE
QUOTE (Black Swan @ May 30 2013, 08:39 PM) *
My guess is that a lot of players complained about taking too long to make a character with the point system, so they made the priority system the default system again, and the point buy system will come back in a companion. Unfortunately you will have to wait. frown.gif


It is also the system that will be used for Missions as well, according to the Shadowrun Missions Facebook page.

"Want to start thinking and planning your new Shadowrun 5th Edition character? The new SR5 Preview has a large portion of the new Priority Chargen system that Shadowrun (And Missions) will be using. YOu won't be able to completely build a character, but it'll give you a much better idea of what you're looking at. smile.gif"
Seerow
Okay so guys, am I reading this wrong, or are Mystic Adepts totally awesome now?

You give up Astral Perception (can be bought back) and Projection, but in exchange you get to gain 1 PP for a 2 karma expenditure, capped at your magic. I'm not seeing any other downside. This is a huge buff compared to having to split your magic between casting and adept PP. Is there something here I'm missing?
The_Dood
QUOTE (BigMrE @ May 31 2013, 11:43 AM) *
But I am, by what priority I put certain things at. If I make Skills my highest priority, I get the 46 points there, and now I have to decide between attributes, racial bonus and nuyen (or magic if you want to play a mage).

And by cookie cutter previously, I meant that all spellcasters that make Priority A have a magic of 6, 2 magic skills at 5 and 10 spells. I no longer have the choice of making a non-aspected mage with a magic of 5.

I understand that it makes it easier for new players to get going and in the game faster, I (like I stated before) just like the level of customization that point buy offered.



From my understanding you can make a non-aspected mage with magic 5 with this system as the metatype choice comes with special attribute points. e.g C for Magic / D for Human(3)
Black Swan
QUOTE (Seerow @ May 31 2013, 02:48 AM) *
Okay so guys, am I reading this wrong, or are Mystic Adepts totally awesome now?

You give up Astral Perception (can be bought back) and Projection, but in exchange you get to gain 1 PP for a 2 karma expenditure, capped at your magic. I'm not seeing any other downside. This is a huge buff compared to having to split your magic between casting and adept PP. Is there something here I'm missing?


I'm hoping there's something you are missing. Sounds crazy powerful. All I can picture is a group of mystic adepts. lol
Black Swan
It would be nice to see it come with a character generation program.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Black Swan @ May 30 2013, 08:52 PM) *
It would be nice to see it come with a character generation program.

It's my understanding that the nice people at Wolf's Lair are working on the SR5 package for Hero Lab just as fast as they can.
Seerow
Also is there any explanation in the packet of what the skill column means? The first number is most likely number of skill ranks you have, but the second number that only kicks in at high end I'm curious about. Is that maybe skill groups? (So priority A skills gets 10 ranks in skill groups plus 46 ranks in skills).



Also anyone else notice that they mention the limits but still managed to avoid giving us the limit formulas? indifferent.gif



Unrelated: I do like the idea of metatypes gaining bonus "special" attributes if you buy them above their value. Being able to get Human at C and put 5 extra points into Edge is kind of cool. Not sure however how I feel about Dwarf starting automatically with 1 special attribute because they were overbudgeted for the D ranking. I'd rather see them either buffed so they don't need that +1 attribute to be balanced at C, or nerfed so they can fit in at D.
Bull
Also note that while yes, your basic points are determined by your Priorities, you do get "Freebie Points" (to borrow a White Wolf term) in the form of extra karma to modify your character with at Chargen. This is primarily used to buy Qualities, but any negative qualities increase your freebie Karma as well. So if you need an extra point or two in something, you can dip into that pool. (Page 64, and page 71)

(And as a note, this is a far from complete Chargen chapter. There's a bunch of stuff after Qualities that isn't in the preview).

Bull
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Seerow @ May 30 2013, 09:05 PM) *
Also is there any explanation in the packet of what the skill column means? The first number is most likely number of skill ranks you have, but the second number that only kicks in at high end I'm curious about. Is that maybe skill groups? (So priority A skills gets 10 ranks in skill groups plus 46 ranks in skills).

Got it in one.
QUOTE
Also anyone else notice that they mention the limits but still managed to avoid giving us the limit formulas? indifferent.gif

It comes up later. They have to save something for later....
Black Swan
QUOTE (Bull @ May 31 2013, 03:07 AM) *
Also note that while yes, your basic points are determined by your Priorities, you do get "Freebie Points" (to borrow a White Wolf term)


I thought of the same thing as soon as I read it. The great thing is, this is cool Shadowrun and not lame White Wolf . lol
Samoth
QUOTE (Seerow @ May 31 2013, 02:48 AM) *
Okay so guys, am I reading this wrong, or are Mystic Adepts totally awesome now?

You give up Astral Perception (can be bought back) and Projection, but in exchange you get to gain 1 PP for a 2 karma expenditure, capped at your magic. I'm not seeing any other downside. This is a huge buff compared to having to split your magic between casting and adept PP. Is there something here I'm missing?


I noticed this as well and was praying it was an editing error. All hail the era of Mystic Adept dominance.
BigMrE
QUOTE (The_Dood @ May 30 2013, 09:50 PM) *
From my understanding you can make a non-aspected mage with magic 5 with this system as the metatype choice comes with special attribute points. e.g C for Magic / D for Human(3)


But only if you put the race as a higher priority than skills, attributes or $$$.

Of course, with the freebie spells, spellcasters don't need AS much $$$ (yeah, right!). wink.gif

And it makes sense for the trolls to pay more for gear and such (not much "off the rack" in troll size), but why did dwarves lose thermographic vision?
Black Swan
QUOTE (Seerow @ May 31 2013, 02:28 AM) *
Just reading through, but had to stop to comment on this:

Trolls pay 50% more for all gear, including cyber/bio?

lmao, goodbye troll characters.




My guess is this is a balance issue. When they went from SR3 to SR4 the troll bonuses remained, but the penalties became lowered attribute maximums, which made the troll unbalanced. . . . IMO, anyway.
BigMrE
QUOTE (Black Swan @ May 30 2013, 10:10 PM) *
I thought of the same thing as soon as I read it. The great thing is, this is cool Shadowrun and not lame White Wolf . lol


Oh, I soooooo wish there was a "like" button for posts, because I would like this one!
Black Swan
QUOTE (BigMrE @ May 31 2013, 03:13 AM) *
but why did dwarves lose thermographic vision?



Did they? Let me check. Yes they did! BOOOO!!!!

Also, trolls pay +100% lifestyle costs. Ouch!!!
BigMrE
QUOTE (Black Swan @ May 30 2013, 10:16 PM) *
Did they? Let me check. Yes they did! BOOOO!!!!

Also, trolls pay +100% lifestyle costs. Ouch!!!


Ahh, I missed the +100% lifestyle....ouch is right! Of course, my troll ganger was always a street guy anyway....
Seerow
QUOTE (Samoth @ May 31 2013, 02:11 AM) *
I noticed this as well and was praying it was an editing error. All hail the era of Mystic Adept dominance.


Yeah, I'm reading this right now as either Mystic Adepts rock everything forever (because they're a full mage and for a trivial cost also a full adept), or Adepts themselves are terrible (because their powers are balanced such that 2 karma actually is worth 1 PP, and adepts pay way more than 2 karma for each point of magic they get). More likely to be the former than the latter, but I'm just hoping there's some drawback/catch that didn't make it into the PDF (or we just haven't noticed yet).



Unrelated: Technomancers get way fewer complex forms than mages get spells, across the board. I'm hoping this is a sign of huge simplification on the matrix end of things, because as it stands I find the complex form limit of 2xskill in SR4 incredibly limiting. On the other hand if Technomancers now use their complex forms to get things that are way more interesting than boring old programs you bought for a few thousand nuyen, then this is cool. (Though I find it hard to imagine technomancers getting anything cool enough from a complex form to make 1 complex form as awesome as 5 spells.... eh wait and see)
Patrick Goodman
Dammit.

I'm fairly certain that's a typo as regards the thermographic vision. A very frustrating typo that we thought had been fixed. I'll double-check to make sure, but I'm thinking that it's just a boo-boo in layout.
Black Swan
QUOTE (Seerow @ May 31 2013, 03:18 AM) *
Yeah, I'm reading this right now as either Mystic Adepts rock everything forever (because they're a full mage and for a trivial cost also a full adept), or Adepts themselves are terrible (because their powers are balanced such that 2 karma actually is worth 1 PP, and adepts pay way more than 2 karma for each point of magic they get). More likely to be the former than the latter, but I'm just hoping there's some drawback/catch that didn't make it into the PDF (or we just haven't noticed yet).


I sure hope so. When I run Shadowrun, I want to have a team of mixed character types. With this, I'm sure everyone will play a mystic adept all the time, ever time. lol
Black Swan
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ May 31 2013, 03:20 AM) *
Dammit.

I'm fairly certain that's a typo as regards the thermographic vision. A very frustrating typo that we thought had been fixed. I'll double-check to make sure, but I'm thinking that it's just a boo-boo in layout.


Patrick, if you need a proof reader for grammar, spelling, etc., I'm available. smile.gif
Glyph
I wish it hadn't stopped before getting to skills; I would really like to know what the limits are on the starting ratings, and how specializations are purchased. I am assuming that, like the SR4 version, the number to the right on skills is how many of them you can purchase as skill groups. It seems to be based on SR4 priority, but with high enough values that it is a lot more functional, this time - even at the "street" level. And it is more fleshed out with regards to character options (which I kind of expected, since they are making it the default character creation system). Overall, very interesting. Mystic adepts really got beefed up.
Seerow
QUOTE (Black Swan @ May 31 2013, 02:14 AM) *
My guess is this is a balance issue. When they went from SR3 to SR4 the troll bonuses remained, but the penalties became lowered attribute maximums, which made the troll unbalanced. . . . IMO, anyway.


I think 50% is going to be swinging it too much the other way. I could end up being dead wrong, but 50% cost is a huge modifier, and when the race has its stats geared for an archtype that is primarily money based....

I mean consider this. You're making your Troll Street Sammy. Troll already has to take up your second highest priority. You can throw magic down to last. But now you have A/C/D to distribute between Skills/Money/Attributes. As a Sammy you probably want Money up top, attributes at C, and that sticks you with skills at D. But because you're a troll, the 450,000 nuyen you just got automatically gets dropped to 300,000 nuyen, because everything you buy costs 50% more.

Yeah, troll stats are nice... but are they really that nice?


I guess you could still go the troll adept route. I wonder, do foci cost them 50% more too?
Bull
There's a couple editing errors in there, unfortunately.

And this thing got put through the ringer. Unfortunately, there were also a couple different versions of the rules through playtesting, and looks like a couple things slipped into the final edit in places that shouldn't have.

For Dwarves, I'm fairly certain they still have Thermo. That would be silly if it suddenly vanished.

For the Troll Increased Costs... It's either +50% Gear or +100% Lifestyle, not both. I believe +100% Lifestyle was the final version and should be correct.
Black Swan
QUOTE (Seerow @ May 31 2013, 03:24 AM) *
I think 50% is going to be swinging it too much the other way. I could end up being dead wrong, but 50% cost is a huge modifier, and when the race has its stats geared for an archtype that is primarily money based....


Well, it was previously 25% ... or was that in the earlier editions? I don't remember any more.
Seerow
QUOTE (Bull @ May 31 2013, 02:25 AM) *
For the Troll Increased Costs... It's either +50% Gear or +100% Lifestyle, not both. I believe +100% Lifestyle was the final version and should be correct.


That's good to hear. +50% gear is crippling. +100% lifestyle is annoying, but can be worked around without too much trouble.
Trillinon
I'm glad to see the Priority System return, with the extra karma slush fund at the end. I think it's a solid compromise between ease of character creation and flexibility.

That said, the presentation of it is frustrating. Reading it raises questions faster than it answers them. It could really use a brief overview of the whole process before it delves into each step. Also, I think the descriptions could be made easier to follow with some language cleanup. I approve of having multiple examples, though. Still, I would never hand this to a player and say, "Build a character." It would be far easier to explain it myself.

Seerow
QUOTE (Black Swan @ May 31 2013, 02:26 AM) *
Well, it was previously 25% ... or was that in the earlier editions? I don't remember any more.


I'm pretty sure there's nothing like that for cyber/bio in 4e. If there is it's one rule my group never noticed or adhered to, but I've never noticed either character builder I've used taking that kind of a jump into account.

There are the racial mods for weapons/vehicles, and that might be a 25% increase (honestly not sure offhand), and if something like that is still in I don't mind it. It's really just the increased cost on cyber/bio that was hugely "wtf"
Black Swan
AhHH!!! SPIDER SPIRIT!

I just tried to squish a spider on my wall and he jumped at me! ARGH!
Black Swan
QUOTE (Seerow @ May 31 2013, 03:28 AM) *
There are the racial mods for weapons/vehicles, and that might be a 25% increase (honestly not sure offhand), and if something like that is still in I don't mind it. It's really just the increased cost on cyber/bio that was hugely "wtf"



In my mind, I think that would depend on the cyber/bioware. Smartgunlink? No. Bone Lacing? Yes. Trolls will definitely have a larger volume (ergo area) of bone to cover.

Of course, it's just easier to set it all at one mod or no mod at all.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Black Swan @ May 30 2013, 09:23 PM) *
Patrick, if you need a proof reader for grammar, spelling, etc., I'm available. smile.gif

You have no idea the volume of proofing this thing got, and stuff STILL got through.

That said, I'm not the guy to talk to about such things. Drop Jason a line.
Bull
The Increased costs for trolls was one of the balancing things we tried to do for SR5. Pound for Pound, Point for Point, especially under Build Points, trolls be BROKEN in SR4. Rebuild the SR4 Archetypes sometime using a Karmagen method, it's crazy how many Karma points the Troll is worth.

Bull
Black Swan
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ May 31 2013, 03:37 AM) *
You have no idea the volume of proofing this thing got, and stuff STILL got through.

That said, I'm not the guy to talk to about such things. Drop Jason a line.


I'm pretty new here. Jason who?
Black Swan
I see armour ratings have gone up.

Aw frown.gif and no longer ballistic/impact ratings? frown.gif
Bull
QUOTE (Black Swan @ May 30 2013, 09:39 PM) *
I'm pretty new here. Jason who?


Jason M Hardy, Shadowrun Line Developer.

Email him use info(at)shadowrun4.com
BigMrE
QUOTE (Black Swan @ May 30 2013, 10:39 PM) *
I'm pretty new here. Jason who?


Jason Hardy
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