Little poll for you all... WHat do you think of the "Grandfathering" rule we use in Missions? aka, the one that says if a rule is changed or errata'd, characters made before the change play as is while new characters have to follow the new rules?
Should Grandfathering stay in Seaosn 5, or should it go?
Full Version: Grandfathering Rule
I personally say Yes, but with a caveat; they have to make up the deficit in karma (like Mystic Adepts with 2 karma per PP) and all earned karma once the errata is pushed through and made official goes immediately to paying off the deficit until paid for.
Otherwise, no.
Otherwise, no.
I'm against grandfathering, because it isn't fair to people coming into the campaign later.
QUOTE (DWC @ Jul 15 2013, 12:51 PM) 
I'm against grandfathering, because it isn't fair to people coming into the campaign later.
I have to agree with this POV. It is not too much effort to recreate a character with karma and gear already gained. No different than a rebuild between seasons. In most cases it is a simple matter of selling an item and getting something else, or swapping out advantages/disadvantages. Only very rarely would it entail anything that would render a character unplayable.
Is say if the vote goes No, that there will need to be some explicit rules on how to fix a character that becomes illegal due to errata and/or SRM FAQ. For example, let's say that Mystic Adept Power Point cost at character creation goes up to 4 Karma/PP. Does a character that was created at 2 karma/PP just lose 3 PP or can they take some more Negative Qualities if they have room to make up those points? And if they can do that, and they end up with a surplus of Karma Points from the Negative Qualities, can they spend them using the Character Creation rules or would the extra Karma just get added to their current pool?
Probably have to deal with this on a case by case basis.
No is probably more fair to the player, but Yes is a lot easier on the SRM Developer. 
I understand KISS for Missions, but is it really fair to the player when they have to remove positive and negative qualities that will most likely be back in SR5 once the core rule books come out?
QUOTE (cndblank @ Jul 17 2013, 08:42 AM)
I understand KISS for Missions, but is it really fair to the player when they have to remove positive and negative qualities that will most likely be back in SR5 once the core rule books come out?
Well, for Season 5 you have to make a new character anyway. So this doesn't apply to stuff like that.
Right now, it primarily applies to Mystic Adepts, since we had some made at Origins. I don't anticipate anything else being majorly retconned or changed in the future, but you never know. So I want a solid system in place for then.
Grandfathering makes things difficult.
Especially as more errata comes out.
Was this character made with this version of the errata, or did they change it a year later and now the 6 players sitting at a missions table are all playing with different errata versions.
In the event of Errata, a character should be rebuilt following the new rules. Then Karma, nuyen, rewards, etc are applied after the character is rebuilt. If the Errata just affects post creation issues for the character, recalculate and reapply.
That way when I sit down to GM, I don't have to figure out what version of errata was used for each character sitting at the table with me.
Make errata go into effect in the month after it is published. But please publish Errata as a published document, not just in forums or on a blog. Put out an actual pdf of errata in addition to updating existing PDFs. I know that will make things easier for the folks at Lonewolf to keep Herolab up to date as well.
Especially as more errata comes out.
Was this character made with this version of the errata, or did they change it a year later and now the 6 players sitting at a missions table are all playing with different errata versions.
In the event of Errata, a character should be rebuilt following the new rules. Then Karma, nuyen, rewards, etc are applied after the character is rebuilt. If the Errata just affects post creation issues for the character, recalculate and reapply.
That way when I sit down to GM, I don't have to figure out what version of errata was used for each character sitting at the table with me.
Make errata go into effect in the month after it is published. But please publish Errata as a published document, not just in forums or on a blog. Put out an actual pdf of errata in addition to updating existing PDFs. I know that will make things easier for the folks at Lonewolf to keep Herolab up to date as well.
I think that Grandfathering makes checking the character sheet harder for the GM, but stays true with respect to character concept and player's style of play. My question is how is the rebuild going to work. Is the rebuilding a new character or the rebuild has to follow the previous concept? For example, if there has been a change to mystic adept rules, must the new character be a mystic adept? Can the mystic adept be changed to a full mage? Or downgraded to simply an adept? Or a radically new character, perhaps even a street sam or a technomancer?
Just let the player rebuild just as if he or she played an archetype.
Take your earned karma and nuyen and put it aside, if necessary rebuild said character from scratch using the current version of the rules, and then apply said Karma and Nuyen.
It's no different than for me when I had a SR4 Missions character with Adept powers at rating 6 and suddenly had to redistribute power points because the powers got capped at level 3.
You do it, and move on, anything else and you have a disaster on your hands when somebody has a misprinted copy of SR5 where the Ares Predator IV has an accuracy of 15 and a base damage of 29P AP-39
They probably modified their book, but if you can't tell and their "whole concept" was built around something like that then as a judge you're just stuck.
If the rules change, the characters change.
Take your earned karma and nuyen and put it aside, if necessary rebuild said character from scratch using the current version of the rules, and then apply said Karma and Nuyen.
It's no different than for me when I had a SR4 Missions character with Adept powers at rating 6 and suddenly had to redistribute power points because the powers got capped at level 3.
You do it, and move on, anything else and you have a disaster on your hands when somebody has a misprinted copy of SR5 where the Ares Predator IV has an accuracy of 15 and a base damage of 29P AP-39
They probably modified their book, but if you can't tell and their "whole concept" was built around something like that then as a judge you're just stuck.
If the rules change, the characters change.
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Jul 24 2013, 02:42 PM)
If the rules change, the characters change.
As much as this is a pain in the ass for the player, it is the fairest for all.
Yeah.
Generally speaking, the plan is:
1) If something changes that's a money or nuyen change, the character pays the difference and goes on with his life (Or gains the difference if something goes down). If they can't pay, they go into a debt which comes out of their next next mission or 3's rewards.
2) Minor rules changes are just rolled with, and the player has to start using the new changes and adapt the character as is to the new changes.
3) Major rules changes that drastically alter the character are allowed to rebuild their character, but they should stick as closely to the original concept as they can. Mystic Adepts will likely fall into this category, and will either need to remain MysAds, or probably pick and go straight Adept or Mage for their rebuilt.
Generally speaking, the plan is:
1) If something changes that's a money or nuyen change, the character pays the difference and goes on with his life (Or gains the difference if something goes down). If they can't pay, they go into a debt which comes out of their next next mission or 3's rewards.
2) Minor rules changes are just rolled with, and the player has to start using the new changes and adapt the character as is to the new changes.
3) Major rules changes that drastically alter the character are allowed to rebuild their character, but they should stick as closely to the original concept as they can. Mystic Adepts will likely fall into this category, and will either need to remain MysAds, or probably pick and go straight Adept or Mage for their rebuilt.
Seems fair... and I look forward to it
QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 24 2013, 08:37 PM)
Yeah.
Generally speaking, the plan is:
1) If something changes that's a money or nuyen change, the character pays the difference and goes on with his life (Or gains the difference if something goes down). If they can't pay, they go into a debt which comes out of their next next mission or 3's rewards.
2) Minor rules changes are just rolled with, and the player has to start using the new changes and adapt the character as is to the new changes.
3) Major rules changes that drastically alter the character are allowed to rebuild their character, but they should stick as closely to the original concept as they can. Mystic Adepts will likely fall into this category, and will either need to remain MysAds, or probably pick and go straight Adept or Mage for their rebuilt.
Generally speaking, the plan is:
1) If something changes that's a money or nuyen change, the character pays the difference and goes on with his life (Or gains the difference if something goes down). If they can't pay, they go into a debt which comes out of their next next mission or 3's rewards.
2) Minor rules changes are just rolled with, and the player has to start using the new changes and adapt the character as is to the new changes.
3) Major rules changes that drastically alter the character are allowed to rebuild their character, but they should stick as closely to the original concept as they can. Mystic Adepts will likely fall into this category, and will either need to remain MysAds, or probably pick and go straight Adept or Mage for their rebuilt.
How big will the Mystic Adepts changes be? Just figuring out the need to fit a rebuild in before GenCon. Also, will there be any changes to Aspected mages? They are underpowered which is always less of a problem than overpowered, but I wanted to see if that would be an option.
My first build of the character was an aspected sorcerer, before going "why build that when doing the exact same character as a magician has no downside." Then after building as a mage, I went "why build that when doing almost the exact same character as a mystic adept has tons of upside, and almost no downside."
QUOTE (Ricochet @ Jul 26 2013, 07:27 AM)
How big will the Mystic Adepts changes be?
I believe Bull mentioned something about a Nerf Crotch Bat being applied. Or something like that.
Mystic Adepts have got to go, they knew it was broken when they made them. Now just to hope that street sams get some love.
yup. FAQ posted, grandfathering is gone. "Hey hey, ho ho, grandfathering has got to go" won by a pretty large margin, when I combine numebrs from here, shadowruntabletop.com, and facebook. not to mention asking the active CDT agents and freelancers. So...
there ya go, democracy in action
there ya go, democracy in action
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