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FuelDrop
Ok, Tracer rounds are actually pretty badass these days. Mix them with another action type on a full auto weapon (yes you can) and it increases the accuracy by 1 when you fire more than one shot, not stacking with smartlink (but stacking with laser sights).
That's not the good bit.
The good bit is that tracers reduce range modifiers by 1 AND wind modifiers by 1. Add a smartgun and take aim with vision magnification, and you're shifting both range and wind modifiers by 2 steps each. In adverse conditions, that is HUGE!
CanRay
Just remember, Tracers work both ways.

But, yes, walking your fire into a person can be a nice way to tell them, "I have a big budget for ammo and I want to bill all of it to Mr. Johnson!!!"
Rystefn
Tracer rounds have been exactly that badass since they invented them in WWI for exactly those reasons. They're especially good for shooting at zeppelins.
Slide
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 22 2013, 05:57 PM) *
Just remember, Tracers work both ways.


He beat me too it.
CanRay
QUOTE (Slide @ Jul 22 2013, 08:55 PM) *
He beat me too it.
Don't feel too bad, I used to beat everyone... Once upon a time...
Tzeentch
You could use dim or IR tracers so they only work both ways sometimes smile.gif
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jul 23 2013, 11:25 AM) *
You could use dim or IR tracers so they only work both ways sometimes smile.gif

Alternatively, go the other way and switch to 100% incendiary ammunition. Sure it works both ways, but your enemy will be on fire and thus too distracted to take advantage of that fact.
CanRay
Tracers aren't a light bulb... They're burning (usually) metal in a hollow cone of a bullet shooting out the back end like a Scottish rocket's kilt.
kzt
Yup, and they don't show the trace at the muzzle. Mostly they ignite at 75-100m out, some start more like 10 meters out.
Slide
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Jul 23 2013, 03:27 AM) *
Alternatively, go the other way and switch to 100% incendiary ammunition. Sure it works both ways, but your enemy will be on fire and thus too distracted to take advantage of that fact.

being on fire should give a -20 to everything except being on fire.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Slide @ Jul 23 2013, 01:07 PM) *
being on fire should give a -20 to everything except being on fire.

I never got that straight. Is being on fire a simple or complex action?
Also remember that it could come up in play.
kzt
Being on fire is a free action. Trying to put it out is a complex action.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 22 2013, 11:47 PM) *
Being on fire is a free action. Trying to put it out is a complex action.


Unless the Fire's Wireless is enabled, then it is a Simple action to put it out (What? Seems asbout as plausible as having a wireless bonuse for a melee weapon).
Sendaz
Just do not try to use Reckless Fire Extinquishing by dumping the closest container of liquid over yourself to try and extinquish the fire, ALWAYS take the time to verify the contents are not actually flammable themselves.
White Buffalo
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 23 2013, 04:27 AM) *
Tracers aren't a light bulb... They're burning (usually) metal in a hollow cone of a bullet shooting out the back end like a Scottish rocket's kilt.



Not really knowing how tracers work, wouldn't that prohibit the use on non-lethal rounds mixed with tracers.
kzt
QUOTE (White Buffalo @ Jul 23 2013, 09:24 AM) *
Not really knowing how tracers work, wouldn't that prohibit the use on non-lethal rounds mixed with tracers.

It doesn't prohibit it. It just means the target gets killed.
White Buffalo
QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 23 2013, 06:03 PM) *
It doesn't prohibit it. It just means the target gets killed.

"Sir, I shot him with Stick and Shock as ordered. If the contract had payed for a smartlink the perp might have lived. but...shrug"
saiyanslayer
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jul 22 2013, 11:25 PM) *
You could use dim or IR tracers so they only work both ways sometimes smile.gif


Or a wireless bonus lets them instead show up on your AR. That would be a nice bonus.
White Buffalo
QUOTE (saiyanslayer @ Jul 23 2013, 07:00 PM) *
Or a wireless bonus lets them instead show up on your AR. That would be a nice bonus.


Or you could hack your bullets in flight and then they won't hurt. Hackers can do that now, right? twirl.gif
Sendaz
YES!! I just bricked his bullets.

You mean his gun right?

No I mean his bul--

*thunk*
CanRay
QUOTE (White Buffalo @ Jul 23 2013, 03:38 PM) *
Or you could hack your bullets in flight and then they won't hurt. Hackers can do that now, right? twirl.gif
A Bricked Bullet is still a hyperkinetic chunk of steel-jacketed lead. nyahnyah.gif
Tzeentch
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 24 2013, 02:18 AM) *
A Bricked Bullet is still a hyperkinetic chunk of steel-jacketed lead. nyahnyah.gif

I don't think hyperkinetic is the term you want, although it certainly would be interesting if that's what happened to hacked bullets smile.gif

What exactly are Shadowrun bullets made of? A case could be made that they are all some sort of armor piercing design as AP in Shadowrun means "Anti Personnel." Perhaps that ever-mysterious plassteel with bonded protective coatings?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jul 23 2013, 06:30 PM) *
I don't think hyperkinetic is the term you want, although it certainly would be interesting if that's what happened to hacked bullets smile.gif

What exactly are Shadowrun bullets made of? A case could be made that they are all some sort of armor piercing design as AP in Shadowrun means "Anti Personnel." Perhaps that ever-mysterious plassteel with bonded protective coatings?


Ummmmm... AP means Armor Piercing, not Anti-Personnel.
toturi
Simple support fire control with tracers. Call fire support at intersection of tracers.
Tzeentch
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 24 2013, 03:51 AM) *
Ummmmm... AP means Armor Piercing, not Anti-Personnel.

Not in Shadowrun.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jul 23 2013, 07:59 PM) *
Not in Shadowrun.


Since When?

Sadly, SR1 has no reference to AP, nor does SR2 (At least I could not find any in the 2 books that I have as a reference.).
SR3 I do not have a copy of, but I am sure that there is no reference there either, since it uses the same mechanics as pervious editions.

HOWEVER,

QUOTE (SR4A, Gear Ratings, Page 310)
Armor Penetration (AP): All weapons have an Armor Penetration value, indicating how they interact with armor (Armor Penetration, p. 162). A positive value adds to the targetís Armor value, while a negative value reduces the targetís Armor value.


QUOTE (SR5, Gear Ratings, Page 417)
Armor Penetration: All weapons have an Armor Penetration value, although in some cases, this value is listed with no value, meaning no AP. The AP value indicates how a weapon interacts with armor (see Armor Penetration, p. 169). A positive value adds to the targetís Armor value, while a negative value reduces the targetís Armor value.


Looks like you are wrong Tzeentch. That's okay, though. smile.gif
CanRay
A few of the early novels described standard "ball" bullets as "Steel-Jacketed Lead", in the same way we think of copper-jacketed lead rounds today.

After the Resource Rush, however, copper is probably too expensive to use on something like Ammo, while Iron is still pretty cheap and easy to get.
Rystefn
Steel-jacketed is better for penetrating a solid target (like armor). I expect is has less to do with a rush on copper than with the plethora of armored targets.
Tzeentch
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 24 2013, 03:51 AM) *
Looks like you are wrong Tzeentch. That's okay, though. smile.gif

You'll soon learn the truth. Prepare yourself.
kzt
QUOTE (Rystefn @ Jul 23 2013, 09:25 PM) *
Steel-jacketed is better for penetrating a solid target (like armor). I expect is has less to do with a rush on copper than with the plethora of armored targets.

Not really, though it can. The core of the bullet is more important for AP purposes.

Russian designed guns have used steel jacketed ammo for many decades, well before troops started wearing body armor. Its cheaper to make and the Red Army was big on cheap. The AK-47 M43 bullet from 1943 was steel jacketed and copper coated (to reduce barrel wear) with a steel core and some lead. Armor penetration was not an objective of this bullet, cheap and reliable was the objective. The bullets used by the AK-74 are steel jacketed covered in a thin layer of copper (again to reduce barrel wear) with a steel core and a lead plug in the original 5N7 bullet. Details of the bullet depends on the exact ammo version (5N7, 7N6, 7N10, 7N22 and 7N24) and were clearly designed to improve armor penetration. The steel jacket is the same, what changes is the core: how much is lead, how much is steel, how hard is the steel (or the use of tungsten carbide) and how is it shaped etc.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jul 24 2013, 12:59 PM) *
You'll soon learn the truth. Prepare yourself.

All proceeding as planned, then?
SpellBinder
The Architect Of Fate, after all...
FuelDrop
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 24 2013, 03:04 PM) *
The Architect Of Fate, after all...

I like to let him think so. nyahnyah.gif
Sendaz
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jul 23 2013, 08:30 PM) *
I don't think hyperkinetic is the term you want, although it certainly would be interesting if that's what happened to hacked bullets smile.gif

What exactly are Shadowrun bullets made of? A case could be made that they are all some sort of armor piercing design as AP in Shadowrun means "Anti Personnel." Perhaps that ever-mysterious plassteel with bonded protective coatings?

A case could be made there is such a thing as too much armor piercing. A bullet normally deforms/breaks up as it hits the target, transferring more of its energy to the subject. Glaser rounds were a good example for this as was gel rounds.. Low penetration but all the energy went into the target.

Having increasingly hardened/jacketed/armor penetrating effects on a bullet is well and good on an armored/protected target as this helps penetrate said defences to get at the gooshy vitals within. It is not losing much energy passing through the outer barrier and then breaks up/deforms/etc..

That said though there have been a number of cases where an armor piercing load shot clean through the soft target with minimal damage to travel on and penetrate the wall behind them and strike another party.

Now I am NOT saying if someone shot my cloth wearing mage (he just stepped out of the shower with a towel wrapped around himself) with a APDS round that we should use the barrier penetration rule on pg 198 and I take 1 box of unresisted damage while the bullet shoots out the back of me, but there could be some kind of modifier to initial damage in a case like that as a good portion of the bullets energy was not spent on me, but passed through and expended itself against the tiles and plasterboard behind me.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 04:53 PM) *
A case could be made there is such a thing as too much armor piercing. A bullet normally deforms/breaks up as it hits the target, transferring more of its energy to the subject. Glaser rounds were a good example for this as was gel rounds.. Low penetration but all the energy went into the target.

Having increasingly hardened/jacketed/armor penetrating effects on a bullet is well and good on an armored/protected target as this helps penetrate said defences to get at the gooshy vitals within. It is not losing much energy passing through the outer barrier and then breaks up/deforms/etc..

That said though there have been a number of cases where an armor piercing load shot clean through the soft target with minimal damage to travel on and penetrate the wall behind them and strike another party.

Now I am NOT saying if someone shot my cloth wearing mage (he just stepped out of the shower with a towel wrapped around himself) with a APDS round that we should use the barrier penetration rule on pg 198 and I take 1 box of unresisted damage while the bullet shoots out the back of me, but there could be some kind of modifier to initial damage in a case like that as a good portion of the bullets energy was not spent on me, but passed through and expended itself against the tiles and plasterboard behind me.

Maybe make APDS -1 damage -8 armour, making them marginally more effective against armoured foes and noticeably less effective against unarmoured opposition.
kzt
That wouldn't be unreasonable idea, though the numbers could be argued. Essentially bullets optimized to maximize physiological incapacitation are not ideal for penetrating barriers, as they tend to "splash" (for lack of a better term) against a hard barrier. They might punch a hole in armor if they are heavy enough and moving fast enough (shotgun slugs, for example, are hell on soft body armor) but they are going to be far less effective at this than an AP round from the same gun.

In the same way rounds designed to penetrate barriers are far from ideal for maximizing physiological incapacitation. AP rounds are very stable and typically just make through and though wounds. So unless their path strikes a bone, major blood vessel or vital organ there may be very little effect on the target.
Tzeentch
There are "barrier blind" bullet designs to consider as well.

I like to think that armor-piercing and semi-armor piercing designs are the default standard in Shadowrun because of ubiquitous body armor, but APDS is hard to explain in that paradigm since that's the go-to armor piercing round.
Remnar
So, we are saying that if there was some type of wireless AP round that could use advanced telemetry and local environmental conditions (i.e. blood and guts) to determine when to cause an expansion (say with a small explosive or some type of "smart" polymer) when inside of a target we could effectively create a round that is ideal both for barrier penetration AND increased wound channel potential?

Interesting, interesting. Maybe there IS a reason to have some Wireless bullets. Bricked ones would just be standard AP rounds, though comprimised ones could be caused to expand in your magazine... which would be bad.
Rystefn
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jul 24 2013, 05:41 PM) *
There are "barrier blind" bullet designs to consider as well.

I like to think that armor-piercing and semi-armor piercing designs are the default standard in Shadowrun because of ubiquitous body armor, but APDS is hard to explain in that paradigm since that's the go-to armor piercing round.


"Regular" rounds in SR are armor-defeating against civilian vests and jackets like even gangers readily get their hands on and wear. APDS round are for defeating milspec armor and "I stand behind that brick wall" armor.
Tzeentch
QUOTE (Rystefn @ Jul 24 2013, 07:46 PM) *
"Regular" rounds in SR are armor-defeating against civilian vests and jackets like even gangers readily get their hands on and wear. APDS round are for defeating milspec armor and "I stand behind that brick wall" armor.

Brick walls don't block bullets very well (concealment but not great cover).

BTW here's how I imagine most Shadowrun players think of their ammo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W66TPHy5lJw#at=17

Tzeentch
Also: AK-47s actually DO require some maintenance - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj9TB4t-VGM
Sendaz
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jul 24 2013, 02:06 PM) *
BTW here's how I imagine most Shadowrun players think of their ammo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W66TPHy5lJw#at=17

Actually, thanks to preparations, THIS is how I see my ammo. biggrin.gif

Just got to work out a few bugs....
Slide
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 03:14 PM) *
Actually, thanks to preparations, THIS is how I see my ammo. biggrin.gif

Just got to work out a few bugs....

I want blackhole bullets frown.gif
Rystefn
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jul 24 2013, 07:06 PM) *
Brick walls don't block bullets very well (concealment but not great cover).


Depends on what you're shooting with. "Bullets" is a very broad category. As is "bricks," really. A well-built wall of sturdy bricks will absolutely stop shots from most handguns. Cinderblock barely stops a pellet gun. Two-inches of "bullet-proof" glass won't stop a deer rifle.
Remnar
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jul 24 2013, 10:09 AM) *
Also: AK-47s actually DO require some maintenance - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj9TB4t-VGM


I seem to recall doing this on Farcry 2
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Rystefn @ Jul 24 2013, 01:01 PM) *
Depends on what you're shooting with. "Bullets" is a very broad category. As is "bricks," really. A well-built wall of sturdy bricks will absolutely stop shots from most handguns. Cinderblock barely stops a pellet gun. Two-inches of "bullet-proof" glass won't stop a deer rifle.


But several inches will stop a .50 Cal BMG using depleted uranium.
Rystefn
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 24 2013, 10:46 PM) *
But several inches will stop a .50 Cal BMG using depleted uranium.


Exactly. It's easy to forget that each ammo type in SR actually represents dozens of ammo types in-world, and the APDS you put in a light pistol is a very, very beast to the APDS for the fat sniper rifle. In a practical sense, that means it's very easy for people to be using the same terms to describe very different scenes and be talking right past each other.
kzt
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 24 2013, 03:46 PM) *
But several inches will stop a .50 Cal BMG using depleted uranium.

Nope.
How big a hole do you want? Using just normal ball ammo a 12" thick triple brick wall will have an 8" hole punched in it 15 rounds. With 50 rounds you get a 26" wide hole. FM 90-10-1 "AN INFANTRYMAN'S GUIDE TO COMBAT IN BUILT-UP AREAS" is a useful reference.
Rystefn
Pretty sure that was talking about a fat block of ballistic glass, not several inches of brick.
CanRay
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jul 24 2013, 02:09 PM) *
Also: AK-47s actually DO require some maintenance - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj9TB4t-VGM
On the flipside, you can abuse them like this...

Mr. Johnson: "AK-97, kill every motherfragger in the room except you, accept no substitutes!"
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