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Samoth
Qi focus is 2x rating in Karma to bind and 3000Y per rating point. Rating must be 4x the adept power point cost to buy (so, Combat Sense 1 costs .5PP, which would require a Force 2 Qi focus). The max focus available at chargen is level 4, or 1PP of powers (though you can have multiple foci).

I'm not seeing any outstanding reasons to use starting money and karma to get one of these, any opinions?
SpellBinder
Unless there's some errata talk I'm not aware of, from page 319: "The Force of the focus must be four times the Power Point cost of the power it holds,"

On the question asked, I've never actually made a starting character with a focus of any kind.
Samoth
Sorry, that was a typo on my end.
Jaid
QUOTE (Samoth @ Aug 19 2013, 12:09 PM) *
Qi focus is 2x rating in Karma to bind and 3000Y per rating point. Rating must be 4x the adept power point cost to buy (so, Combat Sense 1 costs .5PP, which would require a Force 2 Qi focus). The max focus available at chargen is level 4, or 1PP of powers (though you can have multiple foci).

I'm not seeing any outstanding reasons to use starting money and karma to get one of these, any opinions?



well, it's 13 karma to get your first initiation. it's 8 karma and 12,000 nuyen to get a bonus power point from a qi focus. more interestingly, you can have multiples and turn them off and on as you feel necessary, which means you can actually pick up utility powers without feeling like you're missing out on getting your core set of powers.

worth it in chargen? maybe, maybe not. personally, i suspect you probably don't have much better to do with the karma or money in many cases, but that will depend on the specific adept in question.

but it definitely has strong potential to be a worthwhile investment, and it does mean you can customize your powers for specific occasions by turning a focus on or off as needed if you have multiple focuses (and aren't willing to risk focus addiction, that is).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
It is potentially useful, to be sure. smile.gif
Slide
Having multiples might be a small issue with the way that the addiction (as I read it) works. That if in the time period of x weeks you use foci adding up to above your magic rating you need to make an addiciton roll. Its a small threshold but still possible to fail.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Slide @ Aug 19 2013, 12:15 PM) *
Having multiples might be a small issue with the way that the addiction (as I read it) works. That if in the time period of x weeks you use foci adding up to above your magic rating you need to make an addiciton roll. Its a small threshold but still possible to fail.


I see that as being Simultaneous Useage.
Slide
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 19 2013, 04:59 PM) *
I see that as being Simultaneous Useage.

Except it's "total Force of all active foci" Not the highest number force used at anyone time.
Cain
You can use multiple small qi foci to gain access to lots of different powers. For example, you can have one with Enhanced Accuracy for one skill, another for a different skill, etc. Technically, you can stack the same power, so you can get Increased Reflexes 3 for very cheap. (That last one should be errata'd, however. It's a dirty trick.)
Sendaz
Each qi focus is specific to a single adept power at a specific level.

I do not see it saying anywhere that you could stack this, unless you are saying because it does not specifically say you can't but then you are falling under the description of cheesemonkey. nyahnyah.gif

But I suppose it should be errata'd just to make it clearer.
Samoth
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Aug 19 2013, 10:26 PM) *
Each qi focus is specific to a single adept power at a specific level.

I do not see it saying anywhere that you could stack this, unless you are saying because it does not specifically say you can't but then you are falling under the description of cheesemonkey. nyahnyah.gif

But I suppose it should be errata'd just to make it clearer.

One of the examples notes you can buy additional levels of a power you know one level of using foci. Example, you have Increased Reflexes 1, you can buy levels 2 and 3 as individual foci to modify that...apparently.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Slide @ Aug 19 2013, 03:06 PM) *
Except it's "total Force of all active foci" Not the highest number force used at anyone time.


Active at one time, not active across the week. Otherwise all mages using foci will be addicted.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Samoth @ Aug 19 2013, 04:28 PM) *
One of the examples notes you can buy additional levels of a power you know one level of using foci. Example, you have Increased Reflexes 1, you can buy levels 2 and 3 as individual foci to modify that...apparently.

Yes, that's fine, but it sounded like they were implying one could buy multiple level 1's to stack up to a 3.

Cain
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Aug 19 2013, 02:38 PM) *
Yes, that's fine, but it sounded like they were implying one could buy multiple level 1's to stack up to a 3.

No, because Increased reflexes 1 costs 1.5 PP, outside of what a starting Qi Focus can hold. You can buy multiple level 4's, presuming you have Level 1, though it is cheesy and should be fixed.
Voran
Makes ya wonder how many IEs and Dwaaaaagons are addicted to their foci.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Focus Addiction, Just another horrible implementation in a sea of horrible implementations.
Voran
heh I know, by the rules you'd think more awakened types go all Gollum on a superfrequent basis.
Sendaz
You will find what works for PC's doesn't always work the same for NPC's, especially the Named ones.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Aug 19 2013, 04:15 PM) *
You will find what works for PC's doesn't always work the same for NPC's, especially the Named ones.


Goose and Gander... Sadly, it does not always apply. frown.gif
Slide
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 19 2013, 05:35 PM) *
Active at one time, not active across the week. Otherwise all mages using foci will be addicted.

I think that's the point. It throws a soft cap at how many foci you use and how often. If you have a problem with that you are probably letting your awakened use too many foci. As much as everyone seems to think that tech characters got the shaft, I'm surprised people are resistant to ways to reign in magic characters. Besides when looking at how addicted an alcoholic is you look at how much booze he drinks across a long period of time, not just on one binge.
Voran
Addiction rules are funny. One would think there should be addiction rules for "Shooting people" and "Blowing shit up."
Slide
QUOTE (Voran @ Aug 20 2013, 02:26 AM) *
Addiction rules are funny. One would think there should be addiction rules for "Shooting people" and "Blowing shit up."

That would imply that serial killers and arsonist aren't real in SR.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Slide @ Aug 19 2013, 09:04 PM) *
I think that's the point. It throws a soft cap at how many foci you use and how often. If you have a problem with that you are probably letting your awakened use too many foci. As much as everyone seems to think that tech characters got the shaft, I'm surprised people are resistant to ways to reign in magic characters. Besides when looking at how addicted an alcoholic is you look at how much booze he drinks across a long period of time, not just on one binge.


See, it doesn't. If you assume additive rather than simultaneous use, then that mage who gets in 2-3 separate fights in a week will likely be addicted, from his Force 4 Power Focus that he used 3 or 4 times to cast his spells. And that is just crap. And there would never be a reason to have more than a single focus ever, becasue even that one will addict you in short order. Use a Rating 2 Sustaining Focus for your Increased Willpower, just on GP and used every day, will have you exceeding your limit, and you will be addicted. I have no issues with the Mage bopping around with Foci in the Force 12-15 range (total) having to worry about their addiction. But when it is one or two minor Force Sustaining Foci, I have issues with it. After all, you are only allowed to have up to your Logic in Active Foci at a time. Which is already a pretty good limit, in my opinion.
Slide
You miss understand what I'm saying. It's the total of all the seperate foci u use. Power is addictive.
Samoth
Someone on the other board said that using Attribute Boost level 1 in a level 1 Qi Focus is a pretty good idea, and I'm not sure he's wrong. Assuming 6 magic, 7 die will average 2 hits (assuming TN 5? It doesn't say) which is very efficient power use (oh and you have to resist 1s drain...ouch). Of course, at .25PP per level it's not hard to fit this into your build without paying for a foci anyway.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Slide @ Aug 20 2013, 08:48 AM) *
You miss understand what I'm saying. It's the total of all the seperate foci u use. Power is addictive.


Yes, as it should be. But that total should be because of simultaneous useage. Not because I use one focus today, and a differnet focus (of the same power level) on Thursday. It should be because I used them BOTH at the same time, and the power is calling to me. :wobble)
Cain
And that's why the addiction rules are borked. Someone who binges is less likely to be addicted than a regular user, not the other way around.

Under the current rules, someone who overloads on foci just once every week for three weeks is at risk for addiction, while someone who overloads 24/7 for two weeks then takes a week off is at no risk at all.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 20 2013, 06:54 PM) *
And that's why the addiction rules are borked. Someone who binges is less likely to be addicted than a regular user, not the other way around.

Under the current rules, someone who overloads on foci just once every week for three weeks is at risk for addiction, while someone who overloads 24/7 for two weeks then takes a week off is at no risk at all.


Yep... Not surprised, though. wobble.gif
Shinobi Killfist
Addiction is quirky in real life as well.

I think the idea is under the magic limit you are a at the drink a day kind of guy. Sure yeah that sometimes addicts people, on the other hand usually no it doesn't. Under a certain threshold you are probably not getting the magic high that would be addictive.
Slide
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 21 2013, 03:26 PM) *
Addiction is quirky in real life as well.

I think the idea is under the magic limit you are a at the drink a day kind of guy. Sure yeah that sometimes addicts people, on the other hand usually no it doesn't. Under a certain threshold you are probably not getting the magic high that would be addictive.


That depends, do you feel that you need that beer after work every day to take the edge off? Are you slightly annoyed when you don't get it? Welcome to mild addiction. Almost like people who have to have a cup of coffee every day to get by. Addiction doesn't allways mean detrimental to your life, thats just the truely bad cases of it.

Now on the same point would most mages feel aprehensive if they don't have their foci with them? would they be a bit jumpy, edgey , irritable? would they act in a diffrent manner without them? If the character isn't addicted to the foci, maybe the player is.
Wulffyre
QUOTE (Slide @ Aug 21 2013, 10:25 PM) *
That depends, do you feel that you need that beer after work every day to take the edge off? Are you slightly annoyed when you don't get it? Welcome to mild addiction. Almost like people who have to have a cup of coffee every day to get by. Addiction doesn't allways mean detrimental to your life, thats just the truely bad cases of it.

Now on the same point would most mages feel aprehensive if they don't have their foci with them? would they be a bit jumpy, edgey , irritable? would they act in a diffrent manner without them? If the character isn't addicted to the foci, maybe the player is.


http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9831/k8ov.jpg


You have changed my life! This is a game changer
Dolanar
as far as Qi Foci...I would use some of the lesser used Adept powers coming in more here...or things that have highly situational use. Or for basic every day stuff if you have a hard time getting the extra points for more PP.
RHat
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Aug 22 2013, 01:12 AM) *
as far as Qi Foci...I would use some of the lesser used Adept powers coming in more here...or things that have highly situational use. Or for basic every day stuff if you have a hard time getting the extra points for more PP.


See: Improved Sense, Wall Running...
Fatum
Foci addiction is imo as much bulldrek as hotsim addiction. Punishing a character for doing his job is just backwards.
RHat
QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 22 2013, 03:03 AM) *
Foci addiction is imo as much bulldrek as hotsim addiction. Punishing a character for doing his job is just backwards.


Now I'm reminded of TF2's Heavy and his relationship with his guns...
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 22 2013, 06:03 PM) *
Foci addiction is imo as much bulldrek as hotsim addiction. Punishing a character for doing his job is just backwards.

I never saw it in this light, but I really like your point. It seems like a shoe-horned way to try to curtail players using a lot of foci, even though there are already other rules in place for that.
Fatum
Yeah, there are ways to limit foci abuse without addiction. The foci addiction is like making machineguns or chameleon suits addictive.
Oh, here's a better example: implantation addiction is canon. Should using the implants also be made addictive? "Addiction to power" and all that.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 22 2013, 09:54 AM) *
Oh, here's a better example: implantation addiction is canon. Should using the implants also be made addictive? "Addiction to power" and all that.


Wait, isn't THIS how an addiction to implants could end up?
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Aug 22 2013, 11:16 PM) *
Wait, isn't THIS how an addiction to implants could end up?

Interesting that you seem to have saved this link... nyahnyah.gif
quentra
I nearly always take Aug Addiction for my sams. I mean, that chrome, it's just so shiny...
Slide
Ofcoarse sams are addicted to augmentation, less than .25 ess? how is that not addiction, you are barely a human being at that point. And saying that they are being punished for "doing their job" is a bull shit argument. Thats like saying that steroids used by major league athleats, or methanphetamines used by seals to stay awake aren't harmful and/or addictive. I mean they are just trying to do their job right? Or wait, maybe your saying that if I build a supper tank tin man sam I shouldn't become addicted to the Kamakazi I use to boost my inititive. I'm just doing my job right? But I guess that it comes down to the concept of player agency, where nothing should actually stand in the players way.

Welcome to the cyberpunk dystopian future, where becoming the top 1% in the food chain cost you something.
Fatum
QUOTE (Slide @ Aug 22 2013, 10:53 PM) *
Ofcoarse sams are addicted to augmentation, less than .25 ess? how is that not addiction, you are barely a human being at that point.
Not all sams are .25 essence; but sure, as soon as it's in the rules, you can say that focus addiction is par for the course.

QUOTE (Slide @ Aug 22 2013, 10:53 PM) *
And saying that they are being punished for "doing their job" is a bull shit argument.
I can hardly offer anything to argue such a strongly presented point.

Slide
Yes, thank you for taking one sentence of what I said, calling it a "strong argument" in an attempt to be a sarcastic ass while ignoring what else I've written. You have a future in politics my friend. About as effective as saying that adiction is bulldreck and backwards.
Dolanar
actually I find Improved Senses can be worthwhile if you take some of the more exotic ones, I recently took thermo (the most capacity expensive of the eyewear options) for a small expenditure of PP, also when we get more options that means we can get Xray or other exotic types through it
Fatum
QUOTE (Slide @ Aug 22 2013, 11:33 PM) *
Yes, thank you for taking one sentence of what I said
So you just skipped the first half of my comment, then?
Slide
No, just didn't feel the need to respond to it. Thanks for the partial quote again. I feel almost famous.
Fatum
QUOTE (Slide @ Aug 23 2013, 12:11 AM) *
No, just didn't feel the need to respond to it.
So, you read it, but despite it addressing your argument, you still felt the need to claim your argument was being ignored? I am sorry that not all that is read is understood.
Slide
because it didn't address anything. It takes into acount none of the penalties associated with low ess.
Fatum
Okay, I see I'll have to handwalk you through this, as you appear sadly overwhelmed.

(1) You claim that focus addiction is a reasonable rule, because sams with 0.25 essence are equally addicted to implantation.
(2) I point out that this implantation addiction is not in the rules, and thus changes the sensibleness of focus addiction in no way.
(3) Now you counter that "the penalties associated with low ess" are taken "into no acount" (whatever that might be), as if it somehow contradicts the point (2).
Slide
ok, so how would implementation of augmentation addiction look?

And I will ask you one time only to stop making personal attacks on the public forum. If you feel the need to private message me that's fine.
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