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The Key of E
So I just had an interesting thought.

We know that in the SR5 book, it says that Mystic Adepts can buy Power Points in character creation for 2 Karma each. Everyone read that and went, "Wha?"

The temporary errata that was quickly laid down is change that cost from 2 Karma per Power Point to 5 Karma per Power Point. This is definitely better, but still seems a little low.

Here's the interesting thought I had: maybe the cost was supposed to be 2 Karma per QUARTER point, not full point. So that would cost 8 Karma for a Mystic Adept to buy a full Power Point. This is the same price as binding a Qi Focus, which makes sense to me.

(I know it specifically spells out on pg 69 2 Karma for a FULL Power Point, but it could just be a particularly egregious typo.)
Sendaz
Or you could combine it with the errata'd 5 pt cost so it is 5 karma per quarterpoint so 20Karma per PP.

That will teach them Mysads!! nyahnyah.gif


And yes that was joking. Please restart your normal breathing cycle. smile.gif

Using the Qi Focus as a comparison seems a bit off since the focus should cost more than an inate power, so the 5 pt per PP is not so bad.
Isath
Or maybe one should make it so, that other players can spend Karma, during character generation, to buy off powerpoints from the mys-Ade...erm physical mage. So for every 2 Karma a player dedicates to it, the other guy has 1 power point less... now that will teach'em.
SpellBinder
A serious but not heavily thought on idea I've had is having a Mystic Adept pay the extra five karma per Magic point even after character creation, payable as soon as Magic is increased or at a later date.
RHat
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 26 2013, 04:58 PM) *
A serious but not heavily thought on idea I've had is having a Mystic Adept pay the extra five karma per Magic point even after character creation, payable as soon as Magic is increased or at a later date.


Relatedly, I'd considered the idea of having the cost of raising Magic be tied to number of power points, and the cost of a new power point be tied to the value of Magic.
Chrome Head
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 26 2013, 06:58 PM) *
A serious but not heavily thought on idea I've had is having a Mystic Adept pay the extra five karma per Magic point even after character creation, payable as soon as Magic is increased or at a later date.


I find really strange that mystic adepts are not allowed, it seems, to increase their power points after character creation. It makes it so that you almost necessarily go for magic 6 and 6 adept powers at chargen, otherwise you will be gimped throughout your running career. Everything else in the game, you can buy later, but not this... why!?

So yes, I think something has to be done to enable it, be it at the same cost as during chargen, or not.

(and yes I know that you can initiate and take a power point, but that's possible either way and a bit irrelevant)
SpellBinder
As I understand it, after creation when a Mystic improves their Magic they gain a Power Point automatically. Not sure if it's actually written like that somewhere, so if not just chalk that up to the long list of stuff that got forgotten for an important rule book.
Dolanar
I believe you are correct SpellBinder, we know that the working errata for missions has them unable to get it with initiation, which means of the 2 ways of getting PP, the only one left is by increasing your base magic score.
Isath
To be honest... I do not think, that the Mystical Adept concept, has been given enough thought, during development.
Thanee
When we will play SR5, eventually, we will use this house rule. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
leetnoob
What I have been doing in my game so far with mys-ad is give them two magic attributes, one for sorcerer magic and one for power points, they start off at a bit of a disadvantage using the prio system, but if you use some sort of karma-gen they are not too far off. I think I calculated that you compare a F magic attribute mage, then the mys-ad would have something like F-1 on one attribute and F-2 on the other for just about the same karma cost (it might have been F-1 and F-1 instead).

For char creation, if using the priority system, I just used the same values except you could split your initial magic value however you want (so A magic would have 6 points to divide up), and you could use special attributes on either one. The priority system makes mys-ad a bit weak though in my opinion using these rules.

So if you think mys-ad are still too cheap for their cost, you could try the above.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Isath @ Aug 26 2013, 06:43 PM) *
To be honest... I do not think, that the Mystical Adept concept, has been given enough thought, during development.
They're not the only ones that may not have been given enough thought.

COU*technomancers*GH
Chrome Head
I'd really like a confirmation if it's possible. Can someone show me where it says that increasing a mysad's magic attribute gives him one more PP? I don't doubt it, I'm just unaware and would like to see it for myself. Thanks.
RHat
QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Aug 26 2013, 08:51 PM) *
I'd really like a confirmation if it's possible. Can someone show me where it says that increasing a mysad's magic attribute gives him one more PP? I don't doubt it, I'm just unaware and would like to see it for myself. Thanks.


Per the Missions Hot Patch Errata, they don't. They have to use the option to gain a power point when initiating.
SpellBinder
So, sack a metamagic feat for a Power Point, or sink in 15 karma for the same if you carry over the optional rule from SR4. Much more expensive than my thought of +5 karma to improving your Magic attribute without initiation.
Chrome Head
QUOTE (RHat @ Aug 27 2013, 01:03 AM) *
Per the Missions Hot Patch Errata, they don't. They have to use the option to gain a power point when initiating.


Thank you.

But wow.. the mystic adept is such a mess. Much more errata needed.
Draco18s
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 26 2013, 08:30 PM) *
As I understand it, after creation when a Mystic improves their Magic they gain a Power Point automatically. Not sure if it's actually written like that somewhere, so if not just chalk that up to the long list of stuff that got forgotten for an important rule book.


While true, it means that a Mys-ad that starts with 3 power points and 5 magic will never have the same number of power points as magic (ignoring PP-from-initiation) whereas actual adepts always would.

By not-spending the extra 10 Karma, you've effectively squandered potential (aside from losing 10 karma, you lose nothing else by taking an additional power point, unlike in SR4 where it also meant fewer spellcasting dice--and under some interpretations, lower max force limits*).

*I never ascribed to this, as it seemed fairly clear to me "max force" was derived via "all other uses of the Magic score" (i.e. full attribute) as it wasn't one of the things picked out by the limiting rule. Although for a lot of utility spells, hits were everything (Improved Reflexes, Combat Sense, Heal...) so the loss of a spellcasting die was something that hurt. My one Mys-ad went 4:2 mage:adept and still never used Imp. Refl. at a higher force than 3. Either way 5 is "nicer" with Mys-ads.
shonen_mask
If they never made the changes to mystic adepts the game would still be classed between matrix types and magic types.
In SR4 it was not easy to imagine a character who was bent toward magic and still a good matrix hacker. I guess the pure hackers could care less. Again it's a class thing....
The new supplements will most likely suggest some limitation on magical boundries anyway. But as i have always said shadowrun can be fun with and/or without cyberware, bioware, *lol* big guns,......
shonen_mask
And the whole fantasy setting is based on the effects of the Awakening and latent magic abilities.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (shonen_mask @ Aug 27 2013, 11:16 AM) *
But as i have always said shadowrun can be fun with and/or without cyberware, bioware, *lol* big guns,......


It can also be incredibly fun as a game without magic/Technomancers. Just Bio/Cyber, Rigger, and Hacker types.
Draco18s
QUOTE (shonen_mask @ Aug 27 2013, 11:16 AM) *
If they never made the changes to mystic adepts the game would still be classed between matrix types and magic types.
In SR4 it was not easy to imagine a character who was bent toward magic and still a good matrix hacker. I guess the pure hackers could care less. Again it's a class thing....
The new supplements will most likely suggest some limitation on magical boundries anyway. But as i have always said shadowrun can be fun with and/or without cyberware, bioware, *lol* big guns,......


Um...what?

The adept-hacker is a very viable build in SR4. If not the most powerful hacker build.

And I don't see how the change to Mys-ads makes them...somehow blur the line towards the matrix any.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 27 2013, 08:30 AM) *
*I never ascribed to this, as it seemed fairly clear to me "max force" was derived via "all other uses of the Magic score" (i.e. full attribute) as it wasn't one of the things picked out by the limiting rule. Although for a lot of utility spells, hits were everything (Improved Reflexes, Combat Sense, Heal...) so the loss of a spellcasting die was something that hurt. My one Mys-ad went 4:2 mage:adept and still never used Imp. Refl. at a higher force than 3. Either way 5 is "nicer" with Mys-ads.


Indeeed, though my GM has waffled back and forth on it over the years (to determine differences in play, mostly). We are currently using Max Force for everything but DP's, as intended. But it is not all that crippling the other way either. I have played the same character using both methods.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 27 2013, 11:30 AM) *
Indeeed, though my GM has waffled back and forth on it over the years (to determine differences in play, mostly). We are currently using Max Force for everything but DP's, as intended. But it is not all that crippling the other way either. I have played the same character using both methods.


Like I said, the interpretation isn't terribly significant, but it's more impactful than SR5's design IMO. Maybe 10 karma matters that much.
shonen_mask
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 27 2013, 11:30 AM) *
Um...what?

The adept-hacker is a very viable build in SR4. If not the most powerful hacker build.

And I don't see how the change to Mys-ads makes them...somehow blur the line towards the matrix any.



how?

What did they get beside improved reflexes that could possibly be applied directly to hacking?

If you created a mystic adept, or even an adept hacker in SR4 it was cheaper to make a pure matrix character and givie them a weapon skill or two. You couldn't even cast spells with a comparable power to any mage at the same level since you had to split the points.

Why make a mystic adept/adept just to take maybe, analytical mind and improved reflexes and not take any augmentation and not cast spells unless you wanted a combat type adept?

and SR4 discouraged characters being able to use magic and be a good matrix operator and/or firearms expert.....

As far as 'bluring' the lines.
a lot of the restrictions i mentioned are not present, or cheaper to overcome in the new core rulebook for one. And it's much easier for a adept decker to raise key skills than most characters as long as they have the power points to spend.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 27 2013, 09:57 AM) *
Like I said, the interpretation isn't terribly significant, but it's more impactful than SR5's design IMO. Maybe 10 karma matters that much.


Indeed... Sorry if misinterpreted you. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (shonen_mask @ Aug 27 2013, 09:59 AM) *
how?

What did they get beside improved reflexes that could possibly be applied directly to hacking?

If you created a mystic adept, or even an adept hacker in SR4 it was cheaper to make a pure matrix character and givie them a weapon skill or two. You couldn't even cast spells with a comparable power to any mage at the same level since you had to split the points.

Why make a mystic adept/adept just to take maybe, analytical mind and improved reflexes and not take any augmentation and not cast spells unless you wanted a combat type adept?

and SR4 discouraged characters being able to use magic and be a good matrix operator and/or firearms expert.....

As far as 'bluring' the lines.
a lot of the restrictions i mentioned are not present, or cheaper to overcome in the new core rulebook for one. And it's much easier for a adept decker to raise key skills than most characters as long as they have the power points to spend.


Improved Ability [Haking/Electronics Skills] (and at 0.25pp per Point, that was significant)...
Multi-Tasking...
Eiditic Sense Memory (Non-Hackable Storage)...
Analytics...
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 27 2013, 12:22 PM) *
Indeed... Sorry if misinterpreted you. smile.gif


No worries.
Conveying opinions through text is sometimes tricky.
shonen_mask
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 27 2013, 01:23 PM) *
Improved Ability [Haking/Electronics Skills] (and at 0.25pp per Point, that was significant)...
Multi-Tasking...
Eiditic Sense Memory (Non-Hackable Storage)...
Analytics...


True.

But the points you lost choosing a adept to run the matrix still made you not quite as good. Just think of the cost of exceptional ability, exceptional skill, the qualities/powers you mentioned and the cost of choosing a mystic adept/adept....
and not one initiative pass added yet...

Magically unaware characters lost very little in the way of performance choosing to augment for the same bonuses and saving their karma for skills.
SpellBinder
Um, hot sim VR? Two extra IPs right there (three if your commlink was modded up), and you can summon a spirit to watch over your meat body while you're in virtual space.

Improved Reflexes is only good if you're hacking in AR.
Draco18s
QUOTE (shonen_mask @ Aug 27 2013, 12:37 PM) *
Just think of the cost of exceptional ability, exceptional skill, the qualities/powers you mentioned and the cost of choosing a mystic adept/adept....


The improved skill adept power is way cheaper than exceptional skill and gives a larger bonus. Exceptional skill can even be picked up post-char gen (as the two stack).

Hot Sim is the largest contributor towards matrix initiative passes, though picking up bioware for +1 more is actually reasonable in terms of opportunity cost (the amount of magic it eats is less than the same benefit from powers).
shonen_mask
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 27 2013, 12:40 PM) *
Um, hot sim VR? Two extra IPs right there (three if your commlink was modded up), and you can summon a spirit to watch over your meat body while you're in virtual space.

Improved Reflexes is only good if you're hacking in AR.



So assencing, binding, summoning,

Magic points (3) taken away from for adept potential as well as karma spent.....

And everyone can get the extra IP's within HotSim. with or without previously improved initiative.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 27 2013, 10:40 AM) *
Um, hot sim VR? Two extra IPs right there (three if your commlink was modded up), and you can summon a spirit to watch over your meat body while you're in virtual space.

Improved Reflexes is only good if you're hacking in AR.


Indeed...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (shonen_mask @ Aug 27 2013, 10:48 AM) *
So assencing, binding, summoning,

Magic points (3) taken away from for adept potential as well as karma spent.....

And everyone can get the extra IP's within HotSim. with or without previously improved initiative.


And why would an Adept Hacker need any of those skills (which is the majority of what you will see as an Awakened Hacker). And you definitely do not need to spend 3 PP on being a bad ass Adept Hacker.
A Mysad Hacker really only needs the ability to summon a Rating 1 Spirit (for Guard), so no real cost there either.

Methinks thou doth protest too much. wobble.gif
SpellBinder
Assensing is useless for hacking. One Power Point on Astral Perception, and however many BP/Karma, better spent elsewhere. And binding a spirit is only necessary if your hacking jobs frequently take you beyond a sunrise/sunset to do; even then, hold your subscriptions and pop to AR as soon as you're alerted the sun has set and summon a new spirit, then jump back to VR once the new spirit is doing its job.

Not every awakened character can see or knows how to interpret auras. Frosty may be a full on and very experienced magician in the SR universe, but she's got 0 ranks in Assensing from every source of her stats I've seen.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 27 2013, 11:52 AM) *
...

A Mysad Hacker really only needs the ability to summon a Rating 1 Spirit (for Guard), so no real cost there either.

...
If the opposition has no awakened characters to gauge the power of a spirit, a Force 1 spirit has the potential to scare the drek out of them.

Obviously angry spirit shows up, not everyone pulls a gun and shoots it. Too bad a fire spirit has to be Force 3 to get Guard. spin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 27 2013, 10:54 AM) *
Assensing is useless for hacking. One Power Point on Astral Perception, and however many BP/Karma, better spent elsewhere. And binding a spirit is only necessary if your hacking jobs frequently take you beyond a sunrise/sunset to do; even then, hold your subscriptions and pop to AR as soon as you're alerted the sun has set and summon a new spirit, then jump back to VR once the new spirit is doing its job.

Not every awakened character can see or knows how to interpret auras. Frosty may be a full on and very experienced magician in the SR universe, but she's got 0 ranks in Assensing from every source of her stats I've seen.


Indeed...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 27 2013, 10:59 AM) *
If the opposition has no awakened characters to gauge the power of a spirit, a Force 1 spirit has the potential to scare the drek out of them.

Obviously angry spirit shows up, not everyone pulls a gun and shoots it. Too bad a fire spirit has to be Force 3 to get Guard. spin.gif


Too True... I cannot tell you how often my MysAd's peasly Force 2-3 Spirits are so very, very useful. smile.gif
shonen_mask
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 27 2013, 01:52 PM) *
And why would an Adept Hacker need any of those skills (which is the majority of what you will see as an Awakened Hacker). And you definitely do not need to spend 3 PP on being a bad ass Adept Hacker.
A Mysad Hacker really only needs the ability to summon a Rating 1 Spirit (for Guard), so no real cost there either.

Methinks thou doth protest too much. wobble.gif


*LOL*
Falconer
I'm with TJ here... mystic adept worked very nicely for an awakened hacker.

Currently my only SR4 missions character is this type and he's extremely effective even without the cyber/bio boosts.

The big key is the 0.25PP adept powers... which SR5 killed. Adepts now are a lot weaker than in previous editions. (I half think people forgot that a magic rating of 12 under SR3 is more akin to a 8 now... since initations included a point of magic as well).

It's very easy to put a mere 1PP into adept powers and come out with a strong hacking adept... 6(9) hacking skill, and 2(3) computer... for example... paired with multi-tasking & eidetic memory makes for a very strong hacker. You automatically memorize any password just by seeing it (eiditic sense memory). No spam zone penalties... and you'll generally have an easier time gaining extra IP's for AR hacking or branching out if need be.

Multi-tasking also works really well if you do some light rigging on the side... (the ability to be in and pay attention to multiple nodes at once with no penalties).


My one and only SR4 missions character is a mystic adept with 2 points magic. 3 Power points... the force 2/4 limit is no problem whatsoever. It's annoying at times, but the spirits make very useful allies on the fly (to keep an eye on a door... cast and sustain a buff on me... use a spirit power... watch out for astral threats since I can't assense... etc)
shonen_mask
QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 27 2013, 07:00 PM) *
I'm with TJ here... mystic adept worked very nicely for an awakened hacker.

Currently my only SR4 missions character is this type and he's extremely effective even without the cyber/bio boosts.

The big key is the 0.25PP adept powers... which SR5 killed. Adepts now are a lot weaker than in previous editions. (I half think people forgot that a magic rating of 12 under SR3 is more akin to a 8 now... since initations included a point of magic as well).

It's very easy to put a mere 1PP into adept powers and come out with a strong hacking adept... 6(9) hacking skill, and 2(3) computer... for example... paired with multi-tasking & eidetic memory makes for a very strong hacker. You automatically memorize any password just by seeing it (eiditic sense memory). No spam zone penalties... and you'll generally have an easier time gaining extra IP's for AR hacking or branching out if need be.

Multi-tasking also works really well if you do some light rigging on the side... (the ability to be in and pay attention to multiple nodes at once with no penalties).


My one and only SR4 missions character is a mystic adept with 2 points magic. 3 Power points... the force 2/4 limit is no problem whatsoever. It's annoying at times, but the spirits make very useful allies on the fly (to keep an eye on a door... cast and sustain a buff on me... use a spirit power... watch out for astral threats since I can't assense... etc)


So you ignored electronic warfare and software for a character that's fun to play??
talker.gif
Shortstraw
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 28 2013, 03:59 AM) *
If the opposition has no awakened characters to gauge the power of a spirit, a Force 1 spirit has the potential to scare the drek out of them.

Because spirits body/str are based on force the difference between a force 1 and force 6 spirit would be rather obvious. A good example would be elementals in D&D - size and power go hand in hand.
Dolanar
yes but to the average runner who's never seen a spirit for dealt with one, a Spirit bursting into life in a gout of flame or something of the like can be a staggering experience.
Sendaz
Also depend on the shape taken. Even a Force 1 could look like a flaming metahuman, granted a bit lightweight looking,but if its on fire, still going to be impressive.
Shortstraw
Force one spirits are puntable.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Aug 28 2013, 07:25 AM) *
Force one spirits are puntable.


Ahh, but without Assensing, how does someone know?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (shonen_mask @ Aug 28 2013, 03:44 AM) *
So you ignored electronic warfare and software for a character that's fun to play??
talker.gif


Probably not, he just did not augment them with Adept Abilities. cool.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Aug 28 2013, 05:25 AM) *
Force one spirits are puntable.


Only if they interact with the opposition. Unopposed Spirit activity is powerful, irregardless of Force.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Aug 28 2013, 04:33 AM) *
Because spirits body/str are based on force the difference between a force 1 and force 6 spirit would be rather obvious. A good example would be elementals in D&D - size and power go hand in hand.
QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Aug 28 2013, 05:25 AM) *
Force one spirits are puntable.
Yes, a Force 1 spirit is puntable, but the size and appearance of a spirit is not a measure of its power in Shadowrun. A Force 12 Great Form Spirit Of Man could look like a little 8 year old girl with pigtails sucking on a lolipop, and without assensing you wouldn't know its power until she bitch slaps you across a five lane highway. A Force 1 Fire Elemental could look like a roaring bonfire, but you won't know it until it tries to burn something and has trouble catching something in dead-tree-format on fire.

The mundane can recognize a materialized spirit pretty much no matter what (Street Magic, page 96, black box on Spirit Appearance), but without some obvious clues won't be able to tell type and power without someone who's able to assense it.

Zed: May I ask why you felt little Tiffany deserved to die?
James Edwards: Well, she was the only one that actually seemed dangerous at the time, sir.
Zed: How'd you come to that conclusion?
James Edwards: ... Then I saw little Tiffany. I'm thinking, y'know, eight-year-old white girl, middle of the ghetto, bunch of monsters, this time of night with quantum physics books? She about to start some shit, Zed. She's about eight years old, those books are WAY too advanced for her. ...
Falconer
Just like TJ said, I didn't need to boost them with adept powers. I spent the powers elsewhere to make the character better rounded/more survivable. (attribute boost - reaction... which worked nicely with his rigging abilities... as well as dovetailing very nicely with 'increase reflexes' spell since it doesn't raise reaction at the same time).

You have a huge logical fallacy that a character needs to be completely optomized to be fun to play. Just because you're say 3 dice or so behind a well-optomized character doesn't mean that you are incompetent or incapable. Especially if you round him out in other ways (such as 5 edge).


The point of the example was merely to illustrate that it only takes a mere 0.75 PP or magic to make a hacker with 6(9) hacking skills. If you buy them as skill groups instead 4(6) hacking and 4 in the rest of the group is still pretty respectable (and the group is still intact at that point too I'll add).

EWar is useful... but not nearly as much so as hacking. Generally the ewar tests aren't opposed they're simply extended tests to a threshold. So it's a less important skill to buff than hacking unless there's some in-character motivation.

Same goes for software. It really only matters if you're writing your own programs. And even then it actually is Attribute + Skill... and it's far easier to augment logic to enhance the skill!. (especially on a character with Mind over Matter adept power using Logic in place of his Agility for skill tests!). For most characters 2 ranks from 2 ranks in the electronics sklll group is more than sufficient with a strong logic to back it up.
Shemhazai
Aren't spirits their force in meters height?

I would think that characters should have some knowledge skill to know things about spirits, but maybe easy stuff is common knowledge.
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