So,

Now that I've finally got into really looking at the magic section of SR5 I was curious what Dumpshock thinks are its favorite preparations. What's worth risking drain prior to a run to have handy in the old "bag of tricks".

I was thinking some Increased Reflexes might be great for those times where you might need to pop it off quick (say Simple action Command, and being able to shoot still). Also some Detect spells could be handy if you need tactical advantages and already have spells sustained/wounded/drain/etc.

What is worth giving out? Anyone have some stories or good ideas?


Also, bonus challenge. Who can make a Combat Mage Orc (that is also good at ... say shooting a gun and punching, or something) with the priority system. I can do Elves and Humans OK, but needing Race at C has been really difficult for me to work around.

I'm not sure Alchemy has really caught on yet, despite the changes in 5E being a step in the right direction. The rules as exist don't cover enough, and aren't clear enough in their meaning to be useable beyond the most basic level. Any fancy or clever preparation ideas are bound to push the boundaries of what the RAW currently covers, and that makes using Alchemy an exercise in frustration, both for players and GMs. I'd say wait for the Magic splat books.

Also, I'd hold off on making a Combat Mage Ork until we get Karma-gen or BP-gen. Priority is a bit stubborn, insists that only pretty people are allowed to be good at magic without being crippled elsewhere.

~Umi

Generally speaking, the way alchemy works it favors stuff that requires few hits to work well.

The creaters hits - force opposed with a limit on top of that means a lot of high force preparations are going to have 2-3 potency meaning it will even at force 6 roll a mediocre dice pool that is very easy to avoid

unless...

it's an aoe spell


Fireball need no when used to be devastating. No defence (see http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39934 ) and even a full scatter of 6 versus a radius of 6 (on a F6) means you hit your intended target.

It requires a pretty good force to deal meaningful damage (6P, even with AP-6 isn't much) but sometimes the elemental effect (like the -1 dice pool mod and -5 initiative from Lightning) is a good reason to use the spell anyway and you can often do some damage to soften targets for your Sams.


Invisibility don't need that many hits to be useful, same with many buffs. (Combat Sense, Armor, Increase [Attribute]...)

Another spell I love as preparation is Mana barrier.
With the nerf to Counterspelling a mana barrier is even better, it gives FORCE extra dice for spell resistance and has unlimited charges (can be destroyed but...)


[b]Magic Fingers (great for manipulating real grenades near enemies, or to fiddle with their guns or shove a thick blanket in their faces forcing blind fire penalties on them, etc.)

Levitate (emergency parachute, or scale ladders and climbing, remember mages have to dump strength to be good so a way to get around climb checks is nice)

Phantasm Need some hits to overcome illusion resist but the illusion of a drone or raging orc babe with chainsaw hands can draw fire away from your friends (or scare enemies away)


Spells that make very very poor alchemical preparations are things that require net hits to do effect. Direct combat spells, Confusion, Swarm, Agony, Decrease Attribute* and the like

*Decrease attribute is not easy to use, but with touch range it is near impossible to use in combat as it is. A paintball gun firing decrease attribute touch spells can be funny. Decrease Charisma is an extremely powerful incapacitating spell versus all trolls and most orcs. Decrease Strength is hilarious versus all mages (but they tend to resist it).


Also, remember that you can up the effective potency by using reagents. If you build a character focusing on alchemy (6 magic, 8 skill, +home ground and some stuff) That way you can have a F5 Death touch using 12 reagents to deliver a pretty nasty nuke to something. It requires amazing dice pools to pull off. If you can get a ton of hits, you can create pretty funny "land mines" with all kinds of debuffs.

In short, Alchemy requires a creative player. It is easy to do wrong and get weak preparations with abyssmal potency that last shorter than the time it takes to recover from drain and when used the preparation rolls a crap pool and does nothing, leaving the alchemist player sad. With a creative player it can be a very good fun tool for the group.

It is only good in the right hands and that makes alchemy very interesting in my eyes. And it does so without replacing regular spellcasting (because that would essentially make mages into DnD3.5 wizards that have to prepare their spellcasting for the day every morning and can't change their mind once the adventure starts and that would have been super lame)

But how do you compensate for the many drawbacks of alchemy? Such as having to develop a second set of skills and a second set of spells/preparations that have basically the same effect at the core. If you try to be good at both, you just wasted so many spells/skills on being able to be "creative". I'm not saying it can't be done and that it cannot be useful, but you have to admit that it is not very rewarding in the current set of rules, no?

Edit: Oh and btw, an alchemy aspected magician (who would ever play aspected!? I know) is exactly like your DnD mage, except that he can be good at other stuff, like killing with a sword.

How do you figure that? I see no real resemblance there... Or am I missing something. Where is his actual Spellcasting that is AUGMENTED by his items?

Well I think this is off topic, sorry for remarking on this. I may be off in the comparison too, I was just referring to having to prepare your spells in advance, but not necessarily being gimped like the wizards of some fantasy settings. I don't completely get your point about augmentation through items, unless you're trying to start a ridiculous discussion comparing point by point DnD and our favorite RPG.

No, your comment mentioned DnD, and Wizards in DnD have access to both Spells AND Magical Items that mimic spells effects... Infinitely more useful than the afore mentioned Alchemist.
I just think it is a very poor comparison. No worries, though.

I've rolled up a character that uses a lot of alchemy. He's a mystic adept/rigger/decker. Take Firebringer as your mentor; this allows you to double up on bonuses: +2 to all alchemy, +2 to manipulation alchemy. He basically stays back when the group goes in, has some fly-spies to ferry preparations to where they're needed, and jumps into either something sneaky, like a fly spy, or something tough, like a lynx.

I agree, though, by RAW it's tough to make this work; the trigger conditions are too limiting. However, I've been playing using something between contact and time as the trigger condition so that he makes a preparation that is meant to be broken, and when it is broken the spell is activated. If RAW is important, this setup can be understood to work by the following: enchant a fluid, put the fluid in a glass, coat the outside of the glass with a "living" biological specimen. When the glass is broken, the preparation comes into contact with a "living being" and is activated. It's stupid that it has to be reasoned out like that though. And of course by extension and RAW, it's very difficult to work with a contact trigger outside a sterile environment considering all the various bacteria, etc. floating around.

Anyways, spells that he started with:

Shadow - Manipulation - Invisibility wouldn't really work, so, this is a good substitute. Plus, since an AOE remains centered on the preparation, zipping this or other sustained AOEs around is bound to have some interesting uses.
Blast - Needed some damage for those drones with <3 Body. This is it, plus, feel free to enchant that bullet or arrowhead with it as well. With Blast as an AOE Stun, it won't affect the drone that delivered it either.
Influence - Manipulation - Perfect for sneaking inside a secure facility and getting to someone inside. Not even wards can keep you safe now.
Detect Object - I still need to choose what type of object, but, being the only physical detection spell, this should work to grant the drone a fairly unique sense: detect biotech, detect computers (to find that nasty spider or the hardwired paydata), detect foci, detect nuyen, or keep it simple with a detect firearms
Heal - not RAW legal, but I think that's a really stupid rule and has at least one typo: "Command triggers are the only triggers preparation with healing spells can have" - umm, so, I think it's saying spells that heal can only be command triggered, not Health spells, just healing, so literally just this spell has to have a command trigger... why? maybe just so that it's impossible to make the most ubiquitous "preparation" in all fantasy - a frickin' healing potion...
Magic Fingers - Manipulation - handy to have remote control hands, though, it's rather ambiguous as to how this should actually work.

Spells I plan to get: Silence, Mass Animate, Mob Mind, Ice Sheet, the Barriers, and Levitate, which I'm thinking might be great to give the Aztechnology Crawler "flight" and use the little bugger as my assassin drone, as it has the 3 body required to mount a gun.

Overall, I've enjoyed this character so far. He was a challenge to make and is a challenge to play to maximum effect. I think the greatest asset he brings to the table is the ability to bypass wards with magic while remaining outside.

If I'm understanding correctly, another advantage of alchemy would be "banking" drain for when you need it later. So, you spend a lot of time and effort creating a powerful spell, sleep off your stun, then you get to use it whenever you want in the future with zero drain so you can keep fighting and helping the group.

-DrZ

This is an amazing concept, kudos. It really takes advantage of mana barriers and wards not blocking preparations from entering, and the mage doesn't have to be there either. Sending the drones is sufficient!

It's arguable that a fly spy can carry that weird glass with bacteria contraption with markings on it though. It must be pretty hard to make the lynchpin as well as the preparation itself, but allowing a stretch of the rules or not is really up to the GM. I myself always ask the question, when confronted with something like that, do I want my world/setting to have that thing in it? If so would more than just one person (the PC) have it? If so, am I happy with the resulting gameplay? In this instance, I'd probably allow it for shear cool factor.

Except you can't just use it whenever you want, you have to use it within a relatively short window of time, as it rapidly will decay. In fact, many preparations will become next to useless faster than you can heal the drain for them.

~Umi

You also get the free sustain on sustained spells for a small amount of time, so that too can keep you more involved in the action. Stacking sustained spells can be extremely powerful in this way. Though I have to say, it can be done with spirits as well.

That was kind of my idea for them. Whip up some low(er) force sustained spells that you probably would only need for a few minutes during situations where you might have your foci already in use.

A quick Detect Enemies or life for that firefight in a maze of corridors to give a brief tactical advantage. Sure you could cast it just fine, but you've probably got your increased reflexes sustained and you might have drain already from lightning bolts and fireballs.

A low force levitate for when you have to dive out a window just in front the flaming yellow ball of an explosion that is the cornerstone of all action heroes. Better to not risk accidentally taking too much stun damage while falling 4 stories. Probably get you out of the negative modifiers of trying to concentrate on a spell while accelerating at 9.8 m/s/s towards certain death.

I didn't consider sneaking them in past magical defenses, nice. Love the dronomagechemist concept, that's awesome and something I would never have thought of. Sounds like a blast to play.

Just make a MysAd and call it a day.

That's cheating

I hadn't read the rules, the fast decay of potency does seem to intentionally limit their usefulness.

DrZ