Hey folks,

I've been playing through NWN 2 in my free time. I liked the beginning part of the game the best, with the emphasis on militia village defense, hiding out at little inns, escaping by sea, and this kind of thing. Later in the game, when things started to become extremely epic and dealing with the fate of the whole plane or whatever, it started to feel more boring for me.

The other thing that I noticed was how the endgame proliferates with ridiculously powerful magic items especially magic weapons. You keep running across +3 and +4 weapons with secondary abilities ("on hit, target must make save or lose X points of Dexterity", "+1d6 vs. Evil, + 1d6 vs. Orcs") that seem pretty insane. It's not just one or two, but somehow when you reach a certain point in the story you just inexplicably keep finding these things in chests left and right, where before a +1 sword would have been uncommon.

This, combined with the high level spells that potentially deal like a hundred points of damage over a wide area and how casters seem to get a whole lot of these, I began to feel like I might as well have been playing some kind of Dragonball Z role playing game. I could almost see my spell casters going, "Kame...hame...haaaaa!" And then there's a big explosion that, like, levels a mountain or something.

I think that the power level and epic level of the narrative has really changed over the decades.

I remember as a kid reading through a bunch of paper modules including some of the 1st edition classics like Isle of Dread, The Lost City, In Search of The Unknown, Chateau D'Amberville, and The Keep on the Borderlands. With the possible (and, reflecting on it, arguable) exception of some of the tournament modules, like the one that contained the level-eating Black Sword whatever it was called, or the one that let you get laser guns from the spaceship, none of the power levels on anything were resembling what I play today in a CRPG.

All the official non-tournament modules I named above tended to emphasize careful dungeon exploration, terrible perils, and while discovering treasure was always part of the game, I don't ever remember seeing uberweapons (with the exception of that tournament black sword). Like, a +3 weapon was about as badass as it got. I don't remember +1 swords ever becoming common to the point that anyone would just throw them away or not want to pick them up. Maybe if you were super lucky you might find a +3 Flaming Sword.

For me, the +15% to-hit chance was never the main reason why it was so exciting to find a magic weapon. Rather, the reason it was so special was 1.) the scarcity, and 2.) it gave you the ability to fight the undead, werewolves, etc. It was like insurance; so that a random encounter with Gargoyles or something wouldn't mean your party was going to be TPK'd. It was all about having the key to survival instead of a mountain-smashing weapon. Some parties without such weapons would have to carry a silver dagger as a backup weapon or something like that and hope that it would be enough if they encountered certain types of monsters; the silver back up dagger today sounds quaint because of the sense of proliferation of magic weapons.


I have to say in retrospect I think the classic low-level game is more interesting to me. I guess I appreciate the struggle of the little guy to make his way in the world, protect the village, and piece together the meaning of it all for himself in the midst of strange and dangerous circumstances. Undead monsters, in the context of drained EXP levels occurring with a single hit and being permanent, were always truly terrifying and were to be avoided or Turned if at all possible. Another key difference was that in the classic game, running away was important. The rule books talked about dropping food or treasure to delay pursuit. So the character really did have to be "switched on" and know when to fight and when to run and make provision for running away.

I feel like that gets lost when there's a giant, unambiguous cosmic threat that you're supposed to go and punk; like I said, the narrative at that point starts to resemble Dragonball Z, complete with repetition, and staircase-style power levels that always seem calibrated to provide exactly the right challenge. It also gets lost when for the most part you're meant to win every battle; it might take you a few tries, but there's not really a good mechanism in place for when you want to run away, nor is there a way to advance the plot if you can't win certain battles. (I appreciate this would be very complex to handle in a computer game.)


It used to be said that D&D worked best with character levels from 1-7 or so, and I guess that ties into what I'm saying here. For me the most compelling narrative is more like a Robert E. Howard story, moreso than an Akira Toriyama Dragonball Z story. I prefer things to be a little grungier, a little deadlier, a little scarier, and a little bit more about the fate of communities and individuals than about the fate of the WHOLE ENTIRE UNIVERSE or whatever. Because I think the struggle of the little guy to protect his community is basically more compelling.

I agree with many of your points. I have never enjoyed high level D&D games - because at some point a beholder and dragon are just chores to get through, not pants wetting fights were you burn all your resources.

Some of that is on the DM, even a mid-high level party is scared of a pack of rust monsters (or should be), or some acid spitting weapon. There were rules for item destruction vs certain attacks, but IMO they weren't nearly used enough.

Basically, the game works better if the party has cause and the brains to sometimes RUN. It's why I never really liked Superman stories - what did he need to fear? Nothing (well kryptonite). It's hard to make a story from a guy afraid of nothing and unbeatable by anything.


It also leads to more creative thinking by the players IMO, which i just more fun. How many D&D parties set up a trap for a wandering monster in a dungeon with lamp oil because they are too scared to attack it head on? Not enough, I say.

That being said and done, if you're playing NWN2, I really cannot recommend playing Mask of the Betrayer enough for it.

Uh, sure, I think it came with my download. Once I finish the main campaign I plan to try that.

The writing is second only to Planescape: Torment and the actual gameplay is far superior. Everything is paced really well too, which is what NWN2 suffers from. Act 1 is way too long and has no focus. Act 2 is most "the trial" and Act 3 is tieing up all the loose ends.

I agree on the leveling issues with levels in D&D, if not handled carefully. I started with 1st edition, when over a few years, the highest level characters we had were around 12, and that blew our minds. Not that there's anything wrong with higher levels or that we were somehow doing it better, but there was just a different feel to it. To me, the core of the game is still around levels 5-9.

The issue I always had with the highly powered and more prolific magical items was , where were they when we were lower level? Shouldn't there have been some orc with a +3 sword kicking out trash by now? Why doesn't that knight captain have a Flaming Sword? Or maybe they do, and the whole world very quickly gets a lot more magical, and IMO, that magic quality gets a little less special. I suppose that's a matter of taste and preference though.

That's one of the things that attracted me to SR in the first place honestly. Easier to branch into different things, for one. But at no point were you going to be able to tear through a village of people solely on the basis of being a 12th level Fighter with Great Cleave. That fear of death or failure does a lot for a player's creativity in my opinion.

I don't think you'll find anyone who questions this really. The level range you listed is about when casters and fighters are all about par and the monsters are reasonable. Not that orcs are unreasonable at 1st level... until you remember they can 1 shot most classes. Then above 12 almost everything you fight has some way of outright killing you if you're unlucky. Even the PC engine games suffer this horribly. By the end of IWD2 or NWN2 you can just get screwed so hard by save or die spells.

I liked it best when it was Akira Toriyama Dragonball Z protagonist in a Robert E. Howard story. It was grungier, deadlier, scarier... for the opponents of the protagonist.

I'm trying to finish the main campaign but it's really frustrating. It seems like battles in this game are either really easy, or really hard. I often didn't feel like there was a middle ground.

For better or worse, unlike Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2, you often can't buff up and scout out fights with invisibility. That said, Save or suck spells are still your best friend, especially since you get to see the area of effect... at least until you are fighting literally nothing but undead and outsiders.

What are you playing as and whom do you often take with you?

Well, right now I'm playing a Yuan Ti Ranger/Duelist, and in the end game I'm stuck with Ammon Jerro and the gith cleric.

I thought it might be fun to maximize my AC and develop a "Mr. Teflon" type character, which is something I'd enjoyed doing in Knights of the Old Republic. However, the somewhat reduced damage output, combined with immunity to crits from undead and outsiders, may be a liability.

(Which is sort of BS...undead might not have vital organs, but they should generally have vital structural components.)

Well, the duelist only get to use their precise strike ability if they have an empty off hand, which sort of wastes the class when mixed with the range dual weapon style... unless you just took enough for the free haste. But yeah, the immunity to crits/sneak attack makes being a class that focuses on those pretty much... suck. MoB overcomes this slightly by having a couple of weapons with spirit/elemental ruin that allows you to crit those types. The cleric isn't actually terrible if you load up her slots with blade barrier, and more blade barrier. And Jerro can spam the hell out of his warlock wall of fire that does extra damage to undead (no really, you can just keep stacking them on top of each other). After that you probably want to fill the remaining slots with either Casavir or Khelgar (especially if he has that warhammer...) and really, consider Grobnar. Curse Song and Inspire Courage can really make a fight turn around.

Yeah, I'll try again later when I'm a bit less busy. Basically I didn't realize it's possible to rest in the end game, but per gamefaqs.com it is (you have a random chance of being attacked before resting is complete, not 100% certainty) so basically I can reload my spellcasters and try again. At the time they were basically out of their very best spells.


On the subject of how gaming has changed, I found the following quote from Gary Gygax:



Source: http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/538/538820p2.html

It's an interesting point but one I don't necessarily agree with. There's plenty of room for the game master to be a story teller and literal master of the game, but the rules structure allows for a more controlled setting as well. Ultimately the GM can still cry "it works because of magic".

Hmm, I just tried to rest several times in a row but each time it spawned wandering monsters.

I could either try a few more times to see if it's possible to refill spells,

OR

try to play really well and make it to the next cutscene, although that feels like it would be a drag

OR

take the time to Google up how to cheat in that game if possible to be able to finish the game and maybe try the other campaigns

OR

play another game and have fun right now.



I feel like just when it was safe to role-play instead of look up twink builds on the internet, I'm kind of punished at the last part of the game for trying the wrong character build idea.

So, I looked up the cheat, and then realized that in the battle with 3 Shadow Reavers for some reason I can't damage them fast enough to kill any of them even when my player character is invulnerable due to cheating.

I mean, I had been able to defeat the Shadow Reavers up till this point in game, but when I sit and watch their life bars they seem to refill when I get them down to around half HP.

I don't really know what to say. I mean, maybe I had a sub-optimal build but my character was still a melee character. What are characters who are spell casters or non-fighters supposed to do? Had I hypothetically made, say, a wizard, and hypothetically hadn't cheated, how would I be able to do any better coming into that situation low on spells and having even less ability to melee? How comedy would a party of 3 spellcasters have been in the same situation?

Having sunk the time I have into the game, I think I'll try one more time by giving my player characters stats of 20 in all fields and god mode. If I can't seem to finish the game even then, with an invulnerable character with all 20s for ability scores, I'll know it's the game and not me.

The best, truest old-school DnD experience while still embracing decent gameplay is no longer with DnD.

If you want to be old school for its own sake, consider OSRIC.
It's basically 1st Edition AD&D.

If you prefer a less old school but pretty tight system, consider Pathfinder.
It's basically 3rd Edition AD&D.

If you want a modern system which runs like a bandit and feels like pain, you want Hackmaster.
The first version was a parody game, for legal reasons, but the second version (called 5th Edition) is actually pretty well put together.

Hackmaster is my choice. I have run it, multiple campaigns. Characters die horribly, and characters snatch epic victory from the jaws of grim defeat. I think it's what you're looking for.

Yeah, Hackmaster sounds worth looking into.

I have a sort of rule of thumb on game systems. They have to reward one of two major playstyles:

1. Gung ho! Blood and steel! Conan vs Red Sonja!
2. If we can negotiate a temporary ceasefire with the lizard people of the marshes we can strike the lines of communications of the wood elves and ...

Hackmaster fills role number one beautifully, but actually supports number two quite well too. Shadowrun does as well, which is one of the reasons I like it. They are both near my top of game systems to work with.

There are system qualities which I look for as well:

1. So I know you guys have never played this before, but trust me it's a snap...
2. Holy crap! That happened! That was awesome!

Neither Shadowrun nor Hackmaster is dreadfully easy to just pick up and do, but they aren't terrible either (OK, some versions of Shadowrun are worse than others here). On the other hand, both Shadowrun and Hackmaster allow for the incredible.

Particular fight is a bunch of BS, by the way. Even with immunity to death magic they have abilities that will kill on failed saves. That said, you have to kill much like the previous ones but this takes far longer because there are 3 - you have to have Ammon or Zhjave read their true names. Each, single, one.
<edit> if you haven't read that reaver's true name yet, when you get them down so far, they heal to full and I think also cause an AoE knockdown.

Well, I finally got past that fight using cheating, but still need to finish the game. Basically last night during the final battle, I got careless since I was cheating and the guys who can read the true names went down. I assume you have to use the true name on Black Garius. So I quit and figured I'd try again.

I definitely am feeling earlier comments on the AI. I'm considering using Puppet Mode because nothing is worse than your team running around like chickens with their heads cut off. I feel like the fight with Black Garius is pretty cheap because the force barriers pretty much serve to make your team AI behave in inefficient ways. I think the AI is confused by being able to see the enemy but not being able to run right at him.

I was playing a bit of Troika Temple of Elemental Evil a few nights ago and it felt almost refreshing to have the turn-by-turn precise control of combat.

I can sort of see how for NWN2 they decided to make it appeal more to the action RPG crowd, but at the end of the day it's your mages and clerics running around and not acting as a unit and even hilariously charging into melee sometimes.



Somehow I feel like that AI could almost be used to simulate the chaos of an undisciplined band of soldiers or something going nuts in combat. Like, if you wanted to do Aliens the RPG and you wanted the Colonial Marines to end up acting pretty much like they did under the reactor in the film, the NWN2 AI would be perfect. They'd run around in a disorganized mess, set each other on fire, etc. It makes you wish there were an Aliens mod or something for that engine.


EDIT: An aside...I have an issue with Mummy Lords being a dime a dozen in the end game. A Mummy is supposed to be a rare enemy, let alone a Mummy Lord. Normally aren't you supposed to have a single Mummy Lord at the end of a big campaign when your Eurocentric characters discover the pyramids, or something like that? I'm not sure what to make about being mobbed by like 10 mummy lords who are there with no explanation.

Bad CR rolling mechanics. I don't THINK you have to use the true name scroll on Garius, but maybe? The fight with him is considerably harder than the final fight with it's silly mechanics. I do recommend either finishing it with as close as you are or just exporting the character and jumping into MotB. The story will actually keep you glued (Or, if you don't care about the playing so much and just want the story, there is an excellent LP of it up)

So, I finished the campaign and started Mask of the Betrayer with a new character. I decided to play it safe and make a fighter/weapon master. I guess there is no way to go wrong with that.

Anyway, I realized that back in the beginning when I had installed this software I had set the rules to "D&D Hardcore Rules", and that the default combat difficulty setting actually has all kinds of benefits for player characters including reduced affects of mind control spells and some other things.

So, since I'd been having difficulty, I set the difficulty back to default.

I reflected on how, especially with a small party, a couple mind control spells from NPC magic characters can basically end you. Juxtapose how spells like Power Word Kill have HD limitations on who they can kill, but not stuff that stuns you, paralyzes you, causes Fear, or what have you, even if these things effectively take a character out of the fight.

I suppose that one aspect of this is how in D&D death is sort of a temporary condition, usually, so for all intents and purposes striking someone dead isn't much better than striking them paralyzed.

Of course setting your enemies up with spells like that and following up as systematically as possible with Coup De Grace was always a big part of the tactical aspect of D&D.

But instead of having a special alternative rule set where that stuff affects NPCs more than PCs, why not just limit the number of enemies who will spam you with such spells and affects as part of campaign and level design? It sort of goes back to my earlier comment about why are you getting rushed by the Mummy Lord rugby squad at the end of the main campaign...

Well, the largest flaw, I always felt with games like Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, which do really reflect accurately table top in this respect, is that enemy casters always have their full complement of spells in the fight and have no worries about blowing them all, while the players have to carefully manage theirs so as not to prematurely blow their load.

But generally, battlefield control spells like grease, entangle, web, walls, clouds, etc and save or suck spells are the best way to go. For basically exactly the reason you mention. Yeah, it's real cool that your fireball can do 10d6, but hold monster takes it out of the fight for a long time, doesn't risk hitting allies, and is generally more effective. Although many of the CRPGs done in D&D style hand out items to you that grant you immunity to most of these effects.