Hey everyone, I need gobs of help Optimizing my rigger here. I'm entering a currently ongoing game that is in desperate need of a local Seattle Rigger/Smuggler. I'm basically going to be the Townie to the internationals currently in Seattle. Concept is a racer/smuggler living in the Barrens with his own repair shop that he lives above with his Dad. I've never had the chance to play Shadowrun before and am a little overwhelmed by the character creation system.
Priority System
A: Resources
B: Skills
C: Attributes
D: Metatype (Human)
E: Magic (Mundane)

METATYPE: HUMAN
B 3, A 4/6, R 6, S 2, W 2, L 4, I 2, C 2, ESS 3.76, EDG 5
Condition Monitor (P/S): 10 / 9
Armor: 12
Limits: Physical 5, Mental 4, Social 4
Physical Initiative: 8+1D6
Active Skills: Armorer 1, Computer 1, Electronic Warfare 2, Engineering Group 3, Firearms Group 2, Gunnery 4 (Ballistic +2), Hardware 2, Navigation 3, Perception 2, Pilot Aircraft 3, Pilot Ground Craft 6 (Wheeled +2), Pilot Walker 2, Sneaking 2, Software 1

I read this over earlier today, as well as this afternoon. I don't see any glaring errors. You may want a little more electronic warfare, or repair skills; drones break very easily. Additionally, it may make more sense to focus on fewer flying drones, and double-up on some smaller ground craft.

Did you get an RCC? They're quite handy.

You may want to grab some autosofts as well. You're not going to want to be jumped into your drones all the time.

Yep, Got a Vulcan Liegelord out the gate. What Autosofts are most useful?

I have been away for... a long time (and this is my first dumpshock post in years), but I'd say that looks good to me!

Only thing I'd query (and take it with a pinch of salt as I'm a bit new to SR5) is whether the Muscle Toner increase to reaction will have any bearing when you're jacked in via VCR. If not, it's probably not archetypally useful, though it would be (a little) handy for meat-combat.

Depends on what you want the drone to do.

I started with 2 cars, a doberman, 2 fly spies, and a microskimmer. Ignoring the cars for the moment,

Clearsight: all 4 drones
EW: All 4 drones
Manueuvering: All 4
Stealth: The Fly-Spies and Microskimmer
Ak-97 Targeting: The Doberman (since it had a weapon mounted).

You get to pick 8 sensors for each drone (which will use their sensor rating), so decide which you'd like and grab 'em. For example, I picked up more surveillance-type stuff for the fly spy.

For the fly-spies: Camera, Omni-directional microphone, directional microphone, laser microphone, ultrasound, radio signal scanner, olfactory sensor, motion sensor

M.Toner does boost my Gunnery which is one of my most important skills while jacked in.

Please Explain how muscles can possibly have any influence on a machine that has no muscles to actually flex? It is all Mental control.
Yeah, I know, There is no Spoon.

For manual operation (like door guns or mounts) it's Gunnery + Agility [Accuracy], for remote operated systems it's Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy]. He's got that van chock full of stuff, but I think you're right that he may be better off trying to boost his logic instead, since it's unlikely he's going to get out of the driver's seat to go operate one of the guns.

For manual gunnery it is a no brainer, but for "Jumped In" operation, which he did specify, it is a no go.

Where does it say that?

Linked Attribute for Gunnery while "Jumped In" is Logic not Agility.

Gunnery + Logic is for making Sensor Tests. (p.184)

pg 183 of SR5 corebook.

ETA:

The question is whether jumping in is considered remote operation, as there are several references of "becoming" the drone and using standard combat rules while jumped in.

Incidentally, the freelancer whose answers essentially have become the errata for the game so far opined that you would use Agility when jumped in. A lot of people don't like that interpretation as it makes riggers very much Multiple Attribute Dependent.

So, augmentations for riggers are a waste of money?

Yeah I've had a problem balancing the Priorities, no matter what I tried, I felt gimped at something I need to be good at.

Also, this book has been a headache to find related material in. It seems scattered all over the place. I never saw that part about Gunnery+Logic until now, and the wording used is odd. If I am the machine, does it use my agility? If I'm controlling it remotely via RCC is that logic? Does a Synaptic Booster do anything at this point or does rigging use your natural stats only? GAHHHHH!

So, it seems for my Rigger anyhow, Reaction and Logic will be my most important stats?

If you spend a lot of time Jumped In, you're going to want a solid Willpower to resist Biofeedback and Dumpshock.

Many of them are, Yes... *shrug*

I took some reaction enhancers on my rigger- helped with meat-initiative, driving tests at a low cost in terms of both essence and nuyen.

pretty sure the best thing you can do is start with a (used) VCR 3 from an optimization standpoint

Yeah, VCRs make everything about being a Rigger much, much easier. A used Rating 3 will cost you 156k and 3.75 essence, but it's likely worth it. If I got a used rating 3 VCR, I wouldn't be driving around a step-van though; that's like putting premium gas into your k-car. Get one of the sports cars or go-fast bikes that can carry a few passengers, and outrun *everything*.

EDIT: Something else to keep in mind; unless your game is particularly lucrative, some of these big purchases are 1-time things; you'll want to get the best you can since you won't get a chance to spend 75k on a vehicle again anytime soon.

Also depending upon the mayhem level of your group, these vehicles could be one use things as well. I got in the habit of having one "nice" get away vehicle, and hijacking whatever else I could get my hands on, because replacing drones the "normal" way is a recipe for going broke at my table and that was even with us pretty much tripling the nuyen rewards. Damn things were good at their job, but they broke so damn easily. Got to the point that I kinda expected that if they were deployed, they wouldn't be coming back.

Though, if going the hijacking route, be sure to be upfront with the GM and tell them that whatever they use against the PCs, expect it to be used against the opposition in short order. Gives the GM the ability to set the expectations and more easily tailor the challenge level (eg if the GM places no roto-drones with sniper rifles hovering at 4,000 feet in the story, then he doesn't have to worry about it coming from the Rigger), but also helps alleviate any misgivings due to being side-blinded by the tactic. Also gives an advantage to the player in that some of the character creation resources doesn't have to be devoted to having a drone or vehicle for every occasion, and thus you can feasibly build a supporting role in some other area.

it's not just a matter of essence and cash; you have to buy used, because they're lower availability. otherwise you're capped at rating 2, which is good and all, but each rating point on a VCR is a big deal... and yes, it's especially important because saving up the money for a better rating 3 VCR is going to take you forever. you don't need your essence for much else as a pure rigger as well, unless you're also an adept or something.

So I changed my priorities around. Altered my equipment list a lot as well. Basically started over in the gear dept. Only augmentations I took were Used Rating 3 VCR & an extra data jack. Rejigged a lot of the drones and picked up a Rover 2072 instead of the Bulldog on my Gm's request. Sounds like she kinda needs my Rigger to be a Coyote between Salish and Seattle.

A: Resources
B: Attributes
C: Skills
D: Metatype (Human)
E: Magic (Mundane)

Body 3, Agility 3, Reaction 6, Strength 2, Willpower 4, Logic 5, Intuition 4, Charisma 2, EDGE 5

My skills are a little light but I used most of my Character Creation Karma to balance them out. I felt I kinda had to considering that the Rigger Archetype seems to be Multiple stat needy.

Also a follow up question. While jumped in, ignoring the multiple contradictions in the book, a rigger uses Logic and Intuition for nearly all of the skills while in VR or AR correct?

Follow up, if that is true why is reaction, a physical attribute, listed as a primary rigger attribute while piloting? That doesn't seem to follow the "mental stat" system for AR/VR actions.

Because Piloting (meat) requires a good Reaction...
And defense, even jumped in I believe, uses Reaction.

So, what is the Linked Attribute for Pilot (Whatever) while in AR or VR Logic, Intuition? I cannot find it.
Also Using reaction, a physical attribute, for defense while jumped in is counter intuitive if the game insists that all other actions are mental based while jumped in. It would seem to me, using that train of logic, you would have either no defense test, a severely hampered defense test or just a physical resist test w/ body or some such thing.



I'm not being obtuse I've just never played Shadowrun before and the system is rather heavy for a new player.

I'm not positive on Jumped in and Remote Control.
There used to be a chart in SR4A which delineated all options (Physical/Remote/Jumped in). I do not know if that chart exists in SR5. Sadly, I am AFB.

No worries.

From a fluff standpoint, an "extra" datajack is somewhat cheesy; I can go into further detail if you'd like, but it may rub your GM the wrong way.
-DrZ

Why?
My Cyberlogician in SR4A had 4 of them. They are not really cheesy if you have a use for them all.

An extra datajack can be used as a cheesy way to reduce noise penalties.

Only if you are running signal through them all in series.
Not like Fresnal Clothing is any less cheesy.

I thought it made sense if I wanted to have both the RCC and a Vehicle hooked up, that way if I wanted to go from one to the other I wouldn't need to physically unplug a cable from one and plug into another.

Indeed... No reason that would not work.
And that keeps your vehicle from needing to transmit anything.

The vehicle could / should be running through the RCC, since you gain the benefits of the RCC that way (Firewall, programs, noise reduction, etc). My point on the cheesiness aspect was more, "This is an exploit that people have tried in the past while making characters in SR5; you're new so I'm presuming that's not what you're up to, but that your GM might read it that way".

-DrZ

Why would I run my Vehicle through an RCC when I have a perfectly good Rating 3 VCR in my head that cuts out the middle man and eliminates the need for Firewall, programs, noise reduction, etc.

Well, you don't have to; lots of programs are handy to have running, plus it's useful to have your drones running at the same time.

I would almost certainly rather be relying on an RCC's Firewall than the Firewall on whatever vehicle you're jumped into, which is most likely a 2 at best.

I think I'm missing a step here. If I am Jacked into a Vehicle, directly through a cable from my brain to the car, why do I give a shit about Deckers? They have no access to the car at that point. If I am running everything (including car) through an RCC, which is by its nature a wireless device I'm giving a Decker a window into my car, the cable from my head to the car is not.

Or am I not seeing something?

no, you're right. i don't think they got that you were jacked into the car directly.

We get it and you're not seeing something. Regardless of whether you have wireless turned on or not, half of any physical damage that happens to the vehicle you're jumped into comes back at you as biofeedback damage, which is resisted by Firewall + Willpower. Not to mention if the vehicle gets destroyed and you have to resist dumpshock to boot, which is also resisted by Firewall + Willpower. Most vehicles and all drones are relatively easy to damage and destroy in 5th.

ah well, colour me surprised.

apparently 2-3 resistance dice (depending on what you're driving; your minimum should be 3 if you have an alphaware datajack) are worth opening up everything to matrix attack in their opinion.

personally, i'd say if you're that worried, buy yourself a high-end commlink, direct connect it to your datajack, and then use the commlink's cable to direct connect to the vehicle. it isn't terribly expensive, and it's far less likely to screw you over royally than opening up your getaway vehicle to matrix combat when you don't even have any matrix combat skills. in fact, i expect that not being something that can be searched in the matrix to track it down will probably help you not get into quite so many firefights as well, so as an added bonus, both your vehicle and by extension you may well suffer less damage as a result.

Well, when you have a base pool of 4-6 dice, any amount of extra dice are good, IMO. The datajack Firewall isn't going to help you since you're not forming a persona with it. That seems pretty clear when the information on being dumpshock refers to you not having any firewall attribute if your deck gets bricked. In fact, it's not entirely clear how one is jumping into a vehicle directly through a CR since it's never mentioned that you can actually form a persona through a CR, but that's really neither here nor there, I think we can just assume that you can, in which case your FW is probably going to be a 2.


I don't recall any of us saying you should run the vehicle with wireless turned on, that would be pretty dumb. Additionally, if a commlink has a cable to direct connect to a vehicle, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume an RCC does as well, so there's no reason to do it with just a commlink when you can run programs that would help on the RCC as well like Biofeedback Filter, Encryption, Shell, etc.

ETA: Actually, in reading the VR and Rigging section, I'm not entirely certain you can jump into a vehicle unless the wireless on the vehicle is turned on and it has an icon. The Rigging chapter is so poorly developed that it's unlikely there is a clear answer there.

there are no rules whatsoever on what it takes to form a persona. i would be inclined to say no if you tried to use, say, a toaster, but a datajack does essentially exist for the purpose of enabling interaction with the matrix.

and the difference between directly connecting an RCC vs directly connecting a commlink is twofold:

1) the commlink is a heck of a lot cheaper.
2) the commlink is not also wirelessly connected to all of your other drones. remember, in the new matrix, you're either completely shut off 100% from the matrix with no connected wireless hardware, or you're completely on the matrix. there is no such thing as a device which is not connected to the matrix and yet is connected to a device which is connected to the matrix. yes, this is stupid. but it's also how 5e works.

also, you definitely can directly connect to a vehicle. i don't have time to look it up for you atm though.

I'd disagree. A datajack exists to enable communication between your brain and devices through DNI, not necessarily through the Matrix. The persona rules are rather odd though.


I don't think that's true actually. You can have a cyberdeck that is wirelessly on directly connected to a throwback through a wired connection if you want to hack it. Thus, a wireless device is connected to a non-wireless device. It's specifically mentioned in the direct connection section.


I never said you couldn't, I said you may not be able to jump into a vehicle without it's wireless being on (even through a direct connection) as it appears that Jumping In requires VR mode which appears to require wireless connectivity, based on the definition of VR. Personally, I would rule that you could direct connect to a vehicle without an intervening device if you want to, but you're using the vehicle's matrix attributes if they come into play (like Matrix Initiative and Resisting Biofeedback Damage). If you want to use an intervening device to take advantage of that device's Data Processing and Firewall, you'd need to turn that intervening device to Wireless On to benefit from the devices wireless attributes. But that's just how I would handle it.

Again, the rigger section is pretty nebulous, so YIMV.

What do you need a wireless matrix connection for, with a VCR in your head, and a Rigger Interface installed on a vehicle? Isn't that just two pieces of hardware communicating with each other through a DNI? I am just confused by the whole Wireless Matrix thing butting into my brain/car meld. Isn't that how Riggers have been since the 50's?

Please note, I have never played Shadowrun, but I am a big fan of the setting and have read most of the fiction and setting books since back in the day. So most of my understanding is more from a flavor standpoint than game rules standpoint.

The wireless thing starting in 4E started to change things pretty significantly. You probably don't need a device to put between you and the car (I would assume the sim-module in the CR is sufficient to jump into VR, although Aaron pointed out that it doesn't say that it is automatically Hot-Sim enabled (I would assume that it is)), but it can provide additional protection and some potential penalties.

So, if your character is going to plug directly into most normal vehicles (DR2) directly from his CR, he's going to be resisting biofeedback damage with 6 dice and his initiative would be 6 + however many dice are granted from whatever mode (AR/VR(CS/HS)) he using to connect. If he uses a good RCC with the right programs running, he's going to be resisting biofeedback damage with 14 or so dice and his initiative will be about 9/10 + appropriate initiative dice. The tradoff with using the RCC (presuming it needs to be wirelessly enabled) as Jaid mentioned, is that the RCC is going to potentially be vulnerable to hacking.

In some areas, it also might raise eyebrows if a vehicle is being driven without its wireless connection being turned on. The default behavior of the everyman in the 2075s is for wireless to be turned on pretty much all the time.

Why should you run a vehicle through an RCC unless it is wireless... That is the only way it benefits, really... And wireless is really not all that great (actually kind of dumb in a lot of ways), for a vehicle, as it opens you up to attack.

Only matters if it is wireless enabled. *shrug*
EDIT: Except for Taking Damage when Jumped In. But Why would you "Jump Into" a Vehicle connected via a Hardwire? I see no benefit and a LOT of drawbacks. Personally, That is just DUMB with a Capital "D". Maybe it has something to do with the Edition Changes?

Exactly...