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Andinel
Since vampires (and some other character options) start with 2 IP, I want to just make sure that it means that if, say, a vampire adept takes 1 level of Improved Reflexes, it won't do anything for him besides increase Reaction by 1. Am I correct in thinking that they wouldn't get a 3rd IP unless they have 2 levels of Improved Reflexes, or a mage casts Increase Reflexes on them with at least 3 hits?
DarkKindness
QUOTE
When activated, wired reflexes confer a bonus of +1
to Reaction and +1 Initiative Pass per point of rating. Wired reflexes
cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement,
except Reaction Enhancers.

QUOTE
Reaction enhancers are incompatible
with most other Initiative-boosters.

QUOTE
The booster confers a bonus of +1 Reaction and + 1 Initiative Pass per
point of rating. The synaptic booster cannot be combined with any
other form of Initiative enhancement.

QUOTE
Improved Reflexes
Cost: Variable, see below
This power increases the speed at which you react, just like wired
reflexes. For each level, you receive +1 die to Reaction (this also affects
Initiative) and 1 extra Initiative Pass. The maximum rating of
Improved Reflexes is 3, and the increase cannot be combined with
technological or other magical increases to Initiative.


Emphasis mine. Considering all of those rules, I'd say that the only ways to get a vampire (or similar) above 2 IP would, as you thought, be to take Improved Reflexes 2 or to have a mage hit them with Increase Reflexes with 3+ hits. At that point, you're not really stacking initiative bonuses, but overriding the character's innate initiative bonus. In addition, you could reasonably extrapolate that you could override it with bioware or cyberware of sufficient rating, but that's likely a game-by-game call.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (DarkKindness @ Aug 30 2009, 12:05 AM) *
At that point, you're not really stacking initiative bonuses, but overriding the character's innate initiative bonus.

And whay would you think that? Your quotes say otherwise...
DarkKindness
Nope. The quotes say that the bonuses can't be combined. Thus, you can't be a vampire (getting +1 IP), and then get, say, Improved Reflexes 1 to wind up with 3 IP. I'm just assuming that it's like most other things in SR in regard to stacking (sans a few explicit exceptions like armor) and the highest bonus that you have available is the one that applies. This has limited usefulness, but if a vampire picked up Wired Reflexes 2, he'd have his 3 IP. Now let's say that the vampire is placed in some situation where his Wired Reflexes are inoperable - at that point, he'd revert to his natural IP bonus and still have 2 IP, where a lot of other metahumans would be out of luck (and I'm basing this on it not saying anywhere that the vampire loses his natural IP bonus if he enhances it some other way - I haven't read the vampire section today =P).
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (DarkKindness @ Aug 30 2009, 12:33 AM) *
The quotes say that the bonuses can't be combined.

That, they don't say:

"cannot be combined with technological or other magical increases to Initiative"

And the passes of a vampire are neither - they don't disappear in voids and they certainly aren't based technology, either. It's not even certain that having more than one pass is an initative enhancement, at all...
Just the 4 passes limit remains.
Summerstorm
This shouldn't even be asked. It doesn't even matter what the description on reflexbooster/synaptic accelerater etc. says. The list of infected attribute modifiers (Companion, page 79) state clearly that they have 2 IP's natural which won't stack with anything.

There is a * after initative and the * is explained just two centimeters down.
DarkKindness
Which, in turn, leads back to my thought that a higher IP bonus would override an infected's innate bonus. I really think that that's the way that the rules are intended to work here.
Mäx
QUOTE (DarkKindness @ Aug 30 2009, 03:35 AM) *
Which, in turn, leads back to my thought that a higher IP bonus would override an infected's innate bonus. I really think that that's the way that the rules are intended to work here.

yeas thats exactly how it works, it's all explaint in RC page 79.
DarkKindness
QUOTE
* = +1 IP; this is not cumulative with any other form of IP augmentation, only the highest number of IPs apply


So my original assertion is correct. Please disregard the rest of the thread =P

Well, with the one addition that this is pretty clear - any Cyber- or Bioware would override the innate bonus and provide its own instead, as well. So, 2 IP until you get something that gives you more.
Bull
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 29 2009, 07:12 PM) *
That, they don't say:

"cannot be combined with technological or other magical increases to Initiative"

And the passes of a vampire are neither - they don't disappear in voids and they certainly aren't based technology, either. It's not even certain that having more than one pass is an initative enhancement, at all...
Just the 4 passes limit remains.


HMHVV is an Awakaned Disease. Thus, the effects it has on a character are magical in nature. smile.gif
Bugfoxmaster
Haven't all the possible viewpoints been covered yet?
1. The OP was right, you need something that gives a total over MORE than the vampire's base 2 IP's. Thus, you need Improved Reflexes with 3 hits or similar.
2. Nothing.

Those seem to ba all the viewpoints expressed. Everyone seems to agree, so why is there argument?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Bugfoxmaster @ Aug 29 2009, 10:26 PM) *
Everyone seems to agree, so why is there argument?


You're wrong. This is Dumpshock. We don't have arguments here.
DarkKindness
There is only the unity.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 30 2009, 03:22 AM) *
HMHVV is an Awakaned Disease. Thus, the effects it has on a character are magical in nature.

Does said effect fade in a Mana Void? If not, it's not magical.

And of course, that cop-out doesn't even work for normal critters with more than one IP, benefiting from a transfered adept power.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (DarkKindness @ Aug 30 2009, 12:00 AM) *
There is only the unity.

Correction:

There is only unity in the case of disunity. All other cases result in disunity. twirl.gif
DarkKindness
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 31 2009, 10:29 AM) *
Does said effect fade in a Mana Void? If not, it's not magical.

And of course, that cop-out doesn't even work for normal critters with more than one IP, benefiting from a transfered adept power.


Whether or not it's a Magic effect, the question has been answered to a reasonable degree of certainty - the highest IP bonus applies, and if it's higher than the Vampire's natural IP bonus, the natural bonus gets overridden. So it is writ, so shall it be. RAW, end of story.
Bugfoxmaster
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Aug 31 2009, 09:15 AM) *
Correction:

There is only unity in the case of disunity. All other cases result in disunity. twirl.gif


Objection:

If cases of disunity cause unity to exist, and all other cases cause disunity, would this not lead to disunity solely existing where disunity did not exist (cases of unity, or perhaps partial unity, which further would be disunity due to factionalism), and unity solely existing where disunity exists, thus leading to disunity and unity both existing where disunity does AND does not exist?
Besides the semantic failure of my above sentence, doesn't this create a logical black hole?

As for Dumpshock, I should haved remembered the cardinal rule. grinbig.gif
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