Alright, so I'm going to start a shadowrun game pretty soon and I've developed 2 possible characters. Both of them are possession magic users using modified non-possession traditions. The first is a Fox Shapeshifter Mystic Adept named Tobiiro who uses a combination of animals and possession spirits in the same way that a rigger uses drones. The second is a Dwarf Magician named Freyalise who possesses her armor to fight while she's inside it casting spells. Tobi is of the Shinto tradition and Freya is a Norse Bear Sark. Here are their stats:

Ginshin Tobiiro
Fox Shifter
Mystic Adept
240000 (43 BP and 25000 debt)
3,870 left after char gen
Shinto Tradition (Air, Water, Plant, Beast, Man Spirits, Cha Drain Stat)
Wolf Mentor (+2 Comabt Spell Dice, +2 Beast Spirit Dice)
Core Quality Scores-
Body: 1
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2
Strength: 1
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 2
Willpower: 5
Edge: 1
Magic: 5 (4 Sorcery/1 Adept)
Init: 8 (+2 from sustained Increased Reflexes)
IP: 3 (+2 from sustained Increased Reflexes)
Active Skills-
Animal Husbandry Group: 2
Sorcery Group: 2
Animal Training (Paracritters): 3
Summoning (Beast Spirits): 4
Binding (Beast Spirits): 4
Spellcasting (Manipulation): 1
Counterspelling (Combat): As Group
Animal Handling (Mammals): As Group
Tracking (Wilderness): 2
Assensing (Aura Reading): 1
Perception (Smell): 1
Pilot Groundcraft (Wheeled): 1
Qualities-
Animal Empathy 10
Black Market Pipeline - Animals: 10
Mentor Spirit: 5
Mystic Adept: 10
Dayjob 2 -10
In Debt (25000) -25
Contacts-
Paracritter Research Lab Head, Renraku: Loyalty 5 Connectedness 6
Spells
Mindnet, Extended (Sustained at Force 3 in Focus)
Thought Recognition
Shapechange
Heal
Increased Reflexes (Sustained at Force 3 in Focus)
Adept Powers-
Multi-Tasking
Animal Empathy 1
Iron Will 1
Gear-
Power Focus 2
Summoning Focus 3
Sustaining Focus 3 x2
Commlink (Res: 1 Sig: 3 Fire: 3 Sys: 4)
Form-Fitting Body Armor Full-Body Suit (B/I: 6/2, Fire Resist 5 Noncon 5 Insul 5)
Magical Lodge 6
Satellite Link
Fake Sin 4
Contact Lenses
-Vision Enhance 3
-Flare Compensation
Earbuds
-Audio Enhance 3
-Select Sound Filter 3
Hardliner Gloves
Rover 2068 SUV
-Oil Slick Sprayer
-Manual Control Override: Drive-by-Wire system
-Weapon Mount (Internal Manual Flexible)
-Termination System: Disables vehicle and floods interior with Warp
Animals-
Merlin Hawk (Knows spells Analyze Truth and Mindlink, higher logic than me...)
Artnwerre (Trained to use Search power based on mindlinked image, knows heel, follow, and stay commands)
Barghest (Knows attack, don't attack, heel, recall, follow, stay, and subdue commands, as well as use Paralyzing Howl on command and accept possession)
Chimera Cheetah (Enhanced Agility and Reaction, Enhanced Unarmed Combat, Cobra Venom, Enhanced Venom, trained to bite and release targets rather than latch on, trained to accept possession, trained to attack or not, follow, heel, stay and recall on command, B: 5 A: 8 R: 6 S: 4, Fangs contain 1 Combat round speed physical damage poison at 12 power)
Blackberry Cat (Seems cool but don't know what commands to train it in)

Freyalise Swanson
Dwarf
Magician
295,000 (59 BP, Born Rich)
790 after char gen
Norse Tradition (Guardian, Water, Fire, Air and Earth Spirits)
Core Quality Scores-
Body: 5
Agility: 2 (base 1 + Muscle Toner 1)
Reaction: 2
Strength: 5 (base 3 + Muscle Augmentation 2)
Charisma: 5
Intuition: 2
Logic: 1
Willpower: 5
Edge: 2
Magic: 5 (base 6 - 1 Cyberware)
Initiative: 6 (+2 sustained Increased Reflexes)
IP: 3 (+2 sustained Increased Reflexes)
Active Skills-
Sorcery Group: 1
Conjuring Group: 1
Binding (Guardian Spirits): 5
Counterspelling (Combat): 2
Blades (Swords): 1
Perception (Visual): 1
Spellcasting (Combat): 4
Summoning (Guardian Spirits): 6
Running (Sprinting): 1
Arcana (Ally Spirit Formula): 1
Qualities-
Born Rich: 10
Magician: 15
Astral Beacon: -5
Combat Monster: -10
Distinctive Style (Body-length blond hair): -5
Gremlins (3): -15
Contacts-
Talismonger: Loyalty 4 Connectedness 5
Fixer: Loyalty 2 Connectedness 4
Spells-
Lightning Bolt (Fetished)
Sonic Boom (LOS(A) Sound Element Attack, Fetished)
Heal (Fetished)
Increase Reflexes (Sustained at force 3)
Gear-
Sustaining Focus 3
Power Focus 2
Summoning Focus 3
Spellcasting Focus 3
Commlink (Res 1 Sig 3 Fire 3 Sys 4)
Heavy Military Armor + Helmet (B/I: 18/16, Noncon 6, Insul 6, Chem Prot 6, Fire Resist 6, Str Upgrade 3, Mobility Upgrade 2)
Form-Fitting Body Armor Full-Body Suit (B/I: 6/2, Fire Resist 6 Noncon 6 Insul 6)
Magical Lodge 6
Satellite Link
Fake Sin 4
Hardliner Gloves
Contact Lenses
-Vision Enhance 3
-Flare Compensation
Earbuds
-Audio Enhance 3
-Select Sound Filter 3
Combat Fetish x2
Health Fetish
Claymore
Cyber/Bioware
Modular Obvios Cyber Foot x2
-Skimmer Discs
Muscle Toner 1
Muscle Augmentation 2
Sleep Regulator

I have a backstory for both of them, although the shifter's is more developed. I don't know, I like playing reckless, violent characters like the dwarf and I'm pretty sure the rest of my party is going to be fairly squishy, but the shifter seems cooler and more versatile. Thoughts, suggestions, improvements anyone?

Edit: Oh yeah, forgot to mention, GM is allowing either one 20 availability item or 2 16 availability items at char gen. For the shifter its the Barghest and the Cheetah, for the dwarf its the Military Grade armor.

I'm personally biased towards dwarves, so that's the one I'd pick. But as always, it comes down to the one you think you'd have the most fun playing. It's sort of hard for someone else to tell you which one you'd prefer.

Hey, I like them both, they are interesting... would not mind seeing the backgrounds... but I kind of prefer the Bearsark over the Shifter... I am not really sure why... Never really liked Dwarves much in Shadowrun, but she seem to have a bit of promise...

Keep the Faith

The shifter was discovered by a group from Renraku when he was a kit and he's been a loyal Renraku employee ever since. As his powers developed he discovered an affinity for animals and focused his development on working with them. He would often be sent on missions to the wild places of the world in order to track down rare critters for Renraku. Recently, he's requested a transfer to a Renraku subsidiary in Seattle after realizing that he'll basically never be able to retire on Renraku's wages with enough saved up to take care of his animals for any length of time. He's been forced to take out several loans from Renraku in order to maintain his lifestyle and has decided to take up shadowrunning in order to obtain the large amounts of money he needs to retire with his pets. Although he feels somewhat restricted by Renraku, he still feels grateful to them for raising him as a kit and wouldn't betray the company for any amount of money. He works now as a trainer in the Renraku Arcology in Seattle, although he lives elsewhere.

The dwarf grew up in a house with 6 older adept brothers in Norway. Her family was fairly poor and she left school to go to work at an early age. Her first job was at a Talismonger's shop in Oslo for a man named Igor who practiced the traditional Norse style of magic. She had heard fairy tales about Valkyries and ancient gods from her father before bed and her magic was already mildly influenced by it. Igor taught her in depth abput the Norse style of magic and knowing her personality attempted to train her as a Bear Sark, or berserker. Freya was already much more of a magician than an adept at this point however and the idea of taking the strength of an animal as the source of her Bear Sark powers lead her to think of spirits and possession. She swiftly surpassed Igor's teachings and became a full-fledged Bear Sark on her 18th birthday. Igor told her that the only thing left she had to do was to gain life experience and ally herself with a Valkyrie in order to assure herself a place in Fólkvangr, the hall of her namesake after death. Freya decided to head to Seattle due to its reputation for having high-payed work that involves fighting. She was given the name of a Talismonger in Seattle who was the friend of Igor and has been living in an apartment in his shop since she moved.

I'd probably prefer to play the dwarf, but she feels a bit overpowered as compared to the other characters I think I'll be playing with and I don't want to break my GM's game, at least no too much

I say the second. I was thinking of a Norse dwarven combat mage-type way back. Its a good concept you got (both of them really) - but I like the latter one more.

- J.

Yep... I like the Bearsark better... The only drawback to her that I can see is that she has a Logic of 1, which means that she will only be able to have a single focus active at any time (Maximum Number of active foci equal to Logic... Page 199, Under Activation, the SR4A Book)...

Keep the Faith

I like the shifter more myself because there's just so many animal *ahem* husbandry jokes you could make to that character. The background is cooler too, seems like more angst rather than, explanation of abilities, which is always nice for a GM and PC to explore.

If I recall, I couldn't take both the skills individually of a skill group ? (sorcery group and spellcasting skill, for example) That will free up a lot of BPs it seems like for both builds. I'd spend them on more spell picks.

One thing I've recently been sorta laughing at is a pixie in a mecha (basically driving a motorcycle with a walker mode + metahuman mod for the controls), so for some reason, now I'm imagining a fox driving a car.

Correct. Besides, you wouldn't want to for the Sorcery Skill Group. The math wouldn't work out anyway.

I thought you could take a skill group to a certain point and then break the skill group to take skills individually. That's what I did here. Where there's and instance of a skill group and then a skill, the skill's rating is its rating + the skill groups rating for the total number of dice I have to the skill. I wanted to take the Sorcery skill group because I think Ritual Spellcasting would be useful in a lot of situations during a run when we couldn't physically get to a target and I took the Conjuring skill group on the dwarf because I get the feeling that my GM will send possession spirits at my group after I start playing a serious possession mage and Banishing is useful for countering them.

As to Moxie's response, yeah, that's somewhat what I was thinking too, minus the bestiality jokes. I do like the shifter's background more than the dwarf's, but I like the dwarf as a character better than the shifter.

Also, thank you Tymeaus for pointing out that logic rule. I'll have to shift a few points around to compensate for that.

It's possible with Karma. It's not RAW that you can do so with Build Points. Even after Karma, you can have a character with Skill Group at X OR Skills at X, Y, and Z.



and again



I disallow it purely on the grounds that I hate seeing 2 characters, one of which is explicitly more powerful than the other, which is possible if you take the skill group at 1 and then buy up some of the skills while I buy each skill at 1 and then buy up some of the skills. YMMV.



is not possible under RAW.

What you're going for with Freyalise seems to be

Counterspelling (Combat): 3
Ritual Spellcasting: 1
Spellcasting (Combat): 5

which costs 40 BP (and is still 38 BP even if you use the optional rule).

Even if the rules don't rules it out explicitely, I wouldn't allow the form-fitting armor under the military /armor. Military armors are already form-fitted, I don't think it makes sense to wear yet another layer under it. And honestly with already a 18/16 armor, you don't really need it.

Theres also the drawback as far as playing in a group go that most most attacks that would barely scratch your character (5+18+6 = 27 dices, averaging 9 damage soaked) will be a death wound to any non-tanking character.

Last but not least, heavy military armor is as good an attention-drawer as a chainsaw-totting troll biker. Forget moving anywhere with a security rating without getting the cops nagging at you. And don't expect much contact as most people will fear that the anvil you feel the need to protect from with that sort of armor will drop whn they're close by.

The shifter is better on both party balance and ablity to blend in.

On a sidenote : I don't think body-length hair will mix well with both a helmet and chemical seal.

A few things. Yes, I don't like the form-fitting armor stack rule either, and I know that Military grade armor is illegal and makes me a huge red target when I wear it. The reason I have the form-fitting armor is because it's got good ballistic defense on its own and can be concealed under clothing, not to stack with any other armor (besides maybe immunity to normal weapons that I'd get from possession). This character wouldn't wear military armor except when she knows the run she's about to go on has almost no chance of a diplomatic ending, and then she becomes a short, feetless god of war.

and on a side note: my armor has chemical protection but not a chemical seal, and in terms of hair, i'll just do whatever samus does with it when she's in her power armor

The problem actually comes from the logic they use about not being able to get the discount at all once you "split" the group up. The entire philosophy behind the mechanic is that the skills are so related that what you learn with one skill applies a bit to the other skills. Thus making it easier to learn all of them, compared to buying Random Skill up to the same ranking. It's the game mechanics for it that mess it up.

People should get a discount on individual skills related to ones they already know. They tried to simplify that with the Skill Group system, but it kinda-sorta fails in a big way because of all the weird limitations they attached to it. I'd have preferred to see something like "Cost to Improve an Active Skill: (Rating x 3) or (Rating x 2) up to the rating of your highest rated skill in the same skill group." Or anything like that. It would be a little more complex, but it would fit the idea a lot better and wouldn't leave GMs thinking players were trying to somehow cheat by splitting a skill group.

Players never cheat... they just use creative mathematics...

Keep the Faith

About the military grade armor, one of you said you wouldnt allow players to wear the form-fitting armor with it.... in any case by RAW you already cannot : Quoted from the Arsenal, page 51, just before the description of the different types of military grade armors =>

Which does lead to the wonky example that you can get 22 Balistic / 18 Impact using SWAT, Full Form Fitting Armor, and a full Secure Tech set (excluding the helmet, since the SWAT helmet is better). +1 for Gel Packs.

(I'm not sure if you can add Gel Packs to Military Armor. I think by the rules you can, because it's a mod, but it seems wierd, given the restrictions they place on Military Armor (not) being worn with other armor, that you could somehow fit "Gel Packs" in there, if you can't wear Kevlar long-johns.)

Life goes on in my mind, because of the special mods you can get with Military Armor. Between the custom fitting (x3 Bod) and Mobility Upgrade, Military Armor strikes me as the "normal" way to get really good armor (you don't need a crazy Body to wear it), while the SWAT example is the "I'm a Troll; I shall now pile on every piece I can get." That just ain't "normal." It does make me smile, the mental image of Special Forces rolling in with their snazzy Mil Armor, while their Troll with the squad support weapon looking like some mishmash street goon.

Okay let's see :

-Gel packs : Yes of course you can use it / them on the military grade armor, the gel pack text says you can use it / them, they are armor modifications, not armor per se.

-You missed something there, you cannot wear other armor with a military grade suit (so yeah securetech and form fitting are out), but just as you can wear a helmet with it (it is not an "armor" as per the RAW), so can you wear a shield in your off hand (which is not considered "armor" either as per the RAW). Never forget those are three different categories Armor / Helmet / Shield. The securetech tho is still considered armor, as per it's description :



So basically there may not be "much" room for customization with military grade armor, but there's some nonetheless.

PS : Oh and you forgot that huge +1 to +3 strength bonus that you can get as an option in the military armor, that stacks with everything, and is NOT limited to your augmented attribute value (space marine power armour for the win).

You can still get some obscene unencumbered armor ratings with a Troll.

Heavy Military Armor: 16/14
Military hemlet: 2/2
Gelpacks: 1/1
Orthoskin: 3/3
Ballistic Shield: 6/4
Bone Density 4

Total: 28/24
Troll Max Body: 11
Troll MaxBody for Resisting Damage: 15-ish

So, 39-43 dice to soak damage, immunity to injection and inhalation vector chems, strength bonuses, chameleon coating, gyro mount, integrated advanced optics and ultra-wideband... yeah.

edit: Forgot Bone Density Aug.
-----

As for the OPs question, I personally like the Dwarf better.

-----

Applying the armor stuff to your drawf, with a body of 5:

Heavy Military Armor: 16/14
- Gelpacks: 1/1
- Mobility Upgrade 2
Military Hemlet: 2/2
Orthoskin: 3/3

Total Armor: 22/20
Total for calculating encumbrance: 19/17
- Mobility Upgrade negates penalties

Total Dice Pool: 27/25

Not too shabby. And, you still have both hands free.

While we're on the subject of obscene armor dice pools, what's your guys opinion on Immunity to Normal Weapons stacking with armor?

I would differentiate the two kinds of armor, as follows in my examples, for the moment let's assume a being with magic 4 and immunity to normal weapons, with 10 points of ballistic armor on top of that.

First I'd split whatever AP there is evenly between the two kinds of armors, if it's an odd total I'd apply the remaining AP point to the highest armor pool of the two.

Then the player rolls the dice for his regular armor (which is on top), thus reducing the damage a bit, whatever damage remains I consider to have "penetrated" the armor, so I compare that DV to the immunity value, to see if it goes through or not.

Examples :

-Subject is shot with a Ruger Super Warhawk equipped with ExEx ammo (7 DV / AP -3), -2 AP to his mundane armor, -1 to his magical immunity. Let's say the shooter has had a run of good luck, scoring 4 net hits, thus upping the DV to 11. statistically the mundane armor will absorb 2DV, thus reducing the DV to 9... which it still enough to bypass the immunity (4 mag * 2 = 8... -1AP). So the player / NPC rolls his body plus his 7 dice of magical armor to try and soak those 9 remaining boxes.

-Now if the shooter had only one success, he failed to hit a softer spot in the armor, so we have 6 remaining boxes of DV, the bullet having been slowed by the mundane armor, lucky player or NPC does not feel it thanks to his immunity.


It might seem complicated but it's actually quite simple to do once you think about it and get the hang of it.

Meh, I guess if that works for you. I personally think the AP should penetrate the hardened armor first for a few reasons. For one, immunity to normal weapons effectively makes one immune to nearly all damage that doesn't have AP, if you weaken AP by halving it to punch through normal armor then I've effectively become immune to anything that's not a sniper bullet or a missile, and even then. Second, I've always sort of imagined a possession spirit's immunity to normal weapons as something like a shield that surrounds his aura with magical protection, so it would make sense that someone had to penetrate that shield first before doing any real damage. And third, thinking about the way hardened armor works, it tends to imply that it goes first. "I did 8 damage." "Does that penetrate his hardened armor?" "Nope." "Then we don't continue on with the rest of the damage step."

This thread needs a Tanuki shapeshifter!

Too bad they didn't do a raccoon shapeshifter type. (though the fox one largely fits a raccoon mold).

Shinto + fertility god type mentor and it's spot on ;P.


Anyhow, I think the fox is cooler and less traveled path. I hate doing cookie cutter.


Anyhow... glancing over the two concepts... they're both pretty good. One thing to keep in mind is the dwarf, FFBA does not stack w/ military armor. I see you have both listed.

If you're intending the FFBA to be worn under normal armored vest/clothes... then the grade 3 full body condom probably isn't the best pick, you'll probably want grade 2 instead. (the FFBA3 is like one of those arctic full body diving suits complete w/ hoody. So it's not exactly covert, unless you're already wearing it under some other full body covering.


Also I can't seem to find the reference... but weren't all shapeshifters supposed to have an uneducated negative quality? (p85 sapient critters). I know shapeshifters are considered sapient critters... but they have their own section and the negative qualities at the end of the shapeshifter that only suggests uneducated as a good pick. I'm guessing no, though.

Those rules are only for sapient critters (who can pay to buy off the quality), not shapeshifters.

Nemrod:

Stop using so many Bold and Italics. Unless you feel someone is being completely dense, it is unncessary.

Second, no I did not "forget" something.
1) A shield can obviously be added. I don't think anyone here needed that to be pointed out.
2) Of course you could add the Str mod. That doesn't help you wear more armor, however, unless you're using house rules, so I don't see how that is relevant.

Disclaimer: Ignoring this is a abstract game, so logic doesn't play a real strong role in it:
you don't find anything wierd about moding Gel Packs into your armor, if you are not allowed to wear balistic underwear with it? I did already say that, by the rules, you can probably legally do it. (But it's wierd.)

The point was that it is slightly wonky that you can get higher armor values from layering balistic long-johns and moto-cross gear with Police Armor, than by wearing high tech, top of the line Military Armor of the future.

(And yes Cheshyr, you can get stupid armor values. But that thread has been done-to-death a dozen times before. Cyberlinb armor Ftw, apparently.)

Actually I just noticed a huge hole while re-reading shapeshifter rules. All of them are dual-natured.

Your shinto fox... is completely unable to defend himself from astral attacks. That could be easily rectifified by changing lighting bolt (physical combat spell) into a direct mana spell like manabolt/stunbolt.

Similarly, despite being dual natured, assensing rolls cannot be defaulted on either. So you'd probably want that skill as well.

As per the BBB, if attacked astrally he MUST have astral combat to defend himself. You cannot default on astral combat (nor use physical combat skills against an astral opponent). Be aware that any astral mage floating out of reach, or spirit getting into melee can ruin your day. (and magical damage does not regenerate).

unless something changed in SR4, the shapeshifters natural attacks will work just fine against astral opponents when they are dual natured. Now if they dont have effective attacks in the first place...thats a differant story.

Something did in fact. Now duel-natured entities need astral combat to attack astral forms. Which is a point I'll take into consideration.

Not True...
From a Post by Ancient History in another thread...

Oh, well then I won't take that into consideration then

Yeah I was happy to see Ancient post that, I was trying to find that, and didn't realize they hid it in the critter powers section... rather than including it with the astral combat.

But caveat here. A shifter does not retain it's natural weapons when in human form. So if the shifter is in it's natural form w/ natural weapons... then it's fine and uses unarmed normally. If it's in human form, it's helpless w/o the astral combat skill. And in either form, assensing is also a trained only skill.

I don't know, I would still call someone's fists a natural weapon, just not a very good one...

Keep the Faith

humans have natural weapons, they just are not very effective...

Tell that to a Shaolin monk

And just how many of those do you run into on any given day?

Keep the Faith

@ Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Corrected it for you.



Let alone an expert. *shrug* Claws rock, but you don't need them to break a nose (or bones). I do think it's a little wierd that Natural Weapon (which are often non-magical) bypass ItNW, but the metahuman equivelant, "Attack of Will," sucks.

Don't look at me AngelisStorm... I was just asking a question... Patrick the Gnome was the one with the Comment on the Monks...

But in my experience, "Competent" Martial Artists may be great in a tournament, but they are generally not so good in a street brawl... only the exceptional ones manage to make a good showing for themselves off of the mats... When the boasting stops and the Weapons/Feet/Fists actually start to fly, he who fights the dirtiest wins, martial forms be damned...

Keep the Faith

I'm not "lookin" at ya. I was directing the comment to you.
I figured changing the quote to something reasonable was better than saying something silly like: "Actually, I have breakfast with a shaolin trained fighter fairly often..." Because that would just be a silly fluke.

Anywho, I agree with the sentiment. I was including MMA fighters and good street brawlers in the "martial artist" category. I don't much care for the close minded perspective that "Asia is all that." So when I say "martial artist," I mean someone who is dedicated to fighting well. (Hmm, I should probably state that in my sig. line...)

"Supporting the ancient Scottish martial art of "F-U," since the year he started drinking."

Cool...

Null Perspiration...

Keep the Faith