So I'm thinking about running a game with the following rules.

1) Individuals can't use a program at a level higher than their rank in the relevant skill unless they have coded that program themselves (or had it coded specifically for them). Say someone has Data Search 1 and a Browse 6 program, they use that program as a Browse 1 program. Agents are under the same rules (a R1 agent can only use a R6 program as if it was R1). The fluff for this is, much like how photoshop is more difficult to use than paint, that the run of the mill guy simply doesn't know how to get the most out of the programs options.

2) Individuals can create hardware and software about rating 6 (to a maximum of Logic+Skill). This is represented fluff wise as the coder writing a program that is optimized to run on a custom chip with a custom OS and with his unique programming style and habits. This actively works against anyone else using his system by subtracting the rating over 6 from 6 and giving that as the final rating (say you have an R8 Response chip with an R8 OS and an R8 Browse program, someone else goes to use your link and for them it is treated as an R4 Response chip with an R4 OS and an R4 Browse program). The only exception to this rule is Agents that you have coded yourself, they can use your programs and your gear without degradation.

3)An Agent equal to a programs rating on a node that can run it can maintain a program without any ongoing expense. The Agent is constantly trawling the web for news of any exploits, improvements, patches, alterations, etc. and implements then in the linked program to keep it up to date. All programs, including ones over R6, can be maintained in this way. The GM may decide that exceptional circumstances still cause a program to degrade.

4) If a player wants to create publicly useful programs for sale or the like above rating 6 it requires significant time and effort, and by the time the program is completed it will probably only qualify as rating 6. Most of the advantages that are subsumed in a higher rating are the product of fully integrated optimization and not stuff that would provide benefits to the general public.

Yes, I know that this makes the hacker potentially far more powerful. The high end corp hackers are running at R8, the best mega corp hackers are running at about R18, and the best theoretical coder in the world is running at R23 (12 Logic, 9 skill, 2 specialization) for a single program and R21 for the rest. Theoretically you could hit R24 but since you can only push one skill to a natural 7 you can't upgrade both your response chip and your programs. Note that this level is basically FastJack and that he can simply buy enough hits to walk right through a top of the line corp system with high end spiders patrolling it (R8 basically) and can consistently break even the most secure systems of AAA rated corps if he has a link to the system.

Hmm, I should probably add that R13 or better Agents are basically AI. Not rules wise but in terms of intelligence and their ability to handle unexpected situations (you can tell an R13 or better Agent to, say, get you John Does itinerary for tomorrow and the agent will run a data search against the publicly available databases, find his SIN, hack his MSP for his access ID, use his access ID and MSP access to find his comlink, hack his comlink, download a copy of his itinerary, and then wipe out every trace in all of those systems that the Agent ever accessed them before giving you that itinerary).

Questions? Comments? Thoughts? Loop holes?

Well, it definitely encourages homebrewing (and major Logic and skill investment), and yeah, it increases the power of the homebrewer. On the other hand, it really, really discourages not-homebrewing (and Logic/skill dabbling). If the SR4 rules made it possible for non-hackers to at least participate online, this kills that: you're either a hyperspecialist, or you're nothing. This is a thematic choice, of course. You're also significantly refluffing programs ratings; IIRC, the book says they get more and more user-friendly. Another perfectly valid thematic choice, just noting it.

It seems a little bit complicated at first blush. Is people using your link a major concern, that there's a weird [6-(Rating-6)] rule just for it (actively making better programs worse, too)?

Personally, I'd be concerned about people running their personal R13+ agents on their personal machines against which nothing can compete (… except the few other elite hackers of the world). This seems like it takes the modern idea of technology (available to all, standardizes, 'lifts all boats') and replaces it with Dynasty Warriors: megacorp X is protected by the 12 hacker-samurai champions (instead of the million unremarkable computers). There's a certain appeal to that in general terms, but I just wonder if it's appropriate for the faceless corp world of SR. Even the mages are just generic wagemages, after all.

None of this is to say it's not interesting, and I think everyone agrees that an integrated overhaul to the whole homebrew/Logic/skill/etc. system is desirable.

It also functionally removes Technomancers.

It kind of makes hackers technomancers, because it's all about the specific-individual power. :/ People always leave the technos out of these overhauls, but it's not necessarily a problem to add them to this system.

Oh, the non hackers can compete. Most of them that can't manage to get 6 points in the skill after augmentation are basically using a rating 6 agent with a rating 6 program and simply ordering it to do the work round by round. The thing is that most people are running maybe a rating 3 system (with a rating 3 agent running their programs), and most corps under A rank are running 6/6 systems with equally skilled hackers and a bunch of similar agents. Above that level is the realm of the megas, the nations, and entities operating on that level. That level requires the varsity hackers and programmers and the corps invest it. Above that is the realm of highly secure AAA systems and black ops teams using the best hackers in the biz filled to the gills with the best ware that can be created or bough and supported with the best infrastructure. There are maybe 200 people in the world playing on this level, about 10 per AAA corp, 10 in the Shadows, 40 spread amongst the various nations, and the last 20 spread out in other areas (running their own programming labs, teaching, working for smaller corps, etc.). And above that level we have the likes of FastJack or a fully optimized Hacker PC. This is the Einstein of hacking level and there is maybe 2 people living on the entire planet at this level, these are the guys who can hack anything and get away clean.


It's mostly to prevent the hacker from giving rating 20 links out like candy or selling them. And fluff wise it makes sense, a good chunk of the reason that that program is so highly rated is that it is tailored to your exact coding style; say you normally are a quarter second slow in remembering this little trick to defeat that model of Ares Firewall, well the program is optimized to use that trick first. Someone else might be a bit faster on remembering that trick but slower on remembering another trick, that little bit cost you.


In a lot of ways that is the case, at least for the real high end systems. Much of the higher rating comes from hardware optimization, and without the right chip those programs just won't run. Another good chunk comes from the operating system, again without that OS the programs just won't run because one of the big reasons that they are getting the higher rating is that the code is designed to slot seamlessly into that OS in a specific way. And all of that is optimized, in the case of ratings above 12, to your specific neural structure. The person it's designed for can use a Browse 18 program to interact seamlessly with the Matrix, he simply thinks a thought and the program is following his directed subconscious cues (along with a ton of other stuff) to deliver the required information virtually instantly. Rating 20 or better programs are pretty much god in the machine short of a few rare instances, the individual can basically read something encrypted at R6 by just deciding to read it. In point of fact an enormous amount is going on but most of the users interaction with the program is entirely subconscious at this point.


Not really. First because I play with the alternative Technomaner rules, second because Technomancers can do things that a hacker simply can never do (a Technomaner can get information that doesn't exist on the Matrix and never has existed on the Matrix. High end Technomancers are also pretty much on par with the elite corp hackers, the top might go to the Hacker but it's not by much.

At best a Hacker is throwing about 40 dice for a program. A Technomancer with 12 Resonance (Submerged 6 times), an R12 complex form, threading, can hit 36 dice. Throw in an R4 spirit to assist and the Technomancer is matching the best hacker in the world. With R10+ spirits they can be better. Admittedly it costs a technomancer a lot more karma to reach that point but they can also keep getting better. Submersion has no upper limit.



This was part of a larger Matrix overhaul in preparation for running a game and it fit the feel I wanted. For most people there is no real difference between the programs and the individual, and R6 is the best that anybody can mass produce; the people above that are all very exceptional, as in there are maybe as many computer specialists in the world as their are Awakened individuals.

1) That's interesting. Agents are already under that rule though ("Any program run by an agent is limited by its Pilot rating." page 234, SR4A, Payload, first paragraph, last sentence).

2) They already have rules for that in the Build/Repair section of Core Book and rules for hardware above R6 in War!, except for the convoluted modified program/hardware system you created. I think your system actually makes it considerably easier to have military-grade hardware/software.

3) This can already be done by equipping the Agent with the proper programs (Browse, Edit, maybe Exploit) and with the proper script.

4) Coding your own programs is extraordinarily difficult in this game - not because the rolls are difficult, but because the interval is ridiculous. You'd be better off 'running for those three months and making a few times more cash above what you would get from coding a program.

Yeah, the main limitation on huge programs is actually time. You can have a starting PC with Logic 11 and most of their hacking skills at 4, with one at 7. Even if you go a little less nuts, you can still have, say, Logic 9 and 4 skills with no meaningful trouble. Rating 20 stealth, in particular, will completely FUBAR your hacking balance because nobody can find them.

Of course, actually coding all this takes a crazy long time. It's elven farming all over again! You make a PC with Trust Fund, huge logic and hacking skills, the various bonus-to-logic-skills crap, and hunker down to code yourself up super-programs for a few years, then you're set to run.

True, just clarifying.


It makes it both easier and harder to have military grade hardware/software. It's easier for the individual to have that gear, it's far harder for an organization to have that gear. Creating a higher rating program that isn't tailored to a single individual is possible, it's just beyond what PC's can really do (they can take longer to code as an individual than the program is good for).


Nope, technically it can't. You have to patch your own programs with a Software test and Agents can't make those.


The interval can be shortened relatively easily. And you don't just sell a program once, you can sell that rating 6 firewall you made a hundred thousand or so times in a few minutes if you have a reputation of providing good, clean, code. Corps love buying new, and different, firewalls because a single exploit or hole won't apply to all of their systems and cost wise it's cheap for them (especially when they crack the copy protection and/or get a license to use it on all their systems). If you have the right contacts with a tech lab you could easily sell an R6 program for a few hundred K (because someone like NeoNET could sell a hundred million copies of that program in the few months before exploits that downgrade it's rating exist).

... for a month, as those programs degrade (Unwired, page 109, Pirated Software, second paragraph).


But that is exactly the opposite of reality. An organization has far more resources and man-hours at their disposal to create the highest-end gear possible, whether that be firearms, vehicles, hardware, or software as does an individual.

Correct, but you can set your Agent to find those patches, steal them, and implement them itself or find an updated copy of the program (Unwired, page 109, Pirated Software, third paragraph).


Yes, but all those copies you just sold will degrade like normal. I don't know many people who would pay good money for something that they'll have to buy again in a month or two. You are extrapolating real-world mechanics onto a game which has very different mechanics, which is a Bad Idea. If you make a R8 Firewall Program all that means is I need 8 successes to Exploit it, regardless that your Firewall program is only fourteen minutes old. That's easier to hack than getting Admin Access on a Firewall R4 node.

Don't get me wrong, these ideas are interesting; I'm just pointing out where they don't mesh with the Rules As Written properly or where the RAW already provides for these concepts.

Self Coded programs don't degrade, at least not on a monthly basis.



And the organization is using that gear and those resources. It's just that at this level the gear all has to be custom designed and made for the individual. You can't come up with one chip design and run off a few hundred thousand copies, that chip/OS/Program is R7 because every part of it is designed to work together and work with the specific individual it is chosen for. That corporate hacker with all R7 or R8 gear is being outfitted by over a dozen different high end professionals, total cost to outfit him with his gear and ware is upwards of two hundred thousand. People without an organizations backing really can't get that kind of gear because they don't have the skills to make the chip, make the multiple programs that they need, and use all those programs. The PC hacker who can do that? He is exceptional, the kind of people that the mega's will pay upwards of a million a year to employ. The prime runner focused on hacking and the matrix is that one in a billion person who can do it all on their own, they have the gear, the ware, the natural talent, and the education.


Pretty sure they can't patch.



An R6 Firewall is 3K. That doesn't even rate as petty cash for a corp.


Exploit requires a Logic+Hacking test against a threshold of 10+rating with a 1 day interval for a +2 bonus.

And it's still harder to get Admin access on the R8 node then it is on the R4 node.

You also seem to be making a fairly common mistake, the PC's are not normal. That guy with 5 ranks in every matrix related skill, a comlink loaded down with 60K in programs, and a body loaded down with 200K in ware might be what the PC is but he is not anything like the rank and file. The guy with 7 ranks in Hacking is, quite literally, FastJack level good skill wise. The 400 BP PC is a prime runner who is already head and shoulders above most everyone. That's why he is hired to bypass bleeding edge defenses.


I never said that they were RAW, note the house rules part of the thread title. And this is part of a general Matrix rewrite, so lots of things are being tweaked.

Like I said, this is *new* fluff. AFAIK, SR isn't inherently like this. You can make anything make sense when you're inventing the fluff. It's fine, but just important to be aware of.

Whether self-coded programs degrade is not a settled issue, AFAIK. The FAQ (grain of salt already) says they don't degrade *from planned obsolescence*. SOTA is presumably well in effect.

So, yes: if your plan is to convert the matrix into a world dominated by a handful of gods, mission accomplished. I was only pointing out that this is kind of an odd goal, especially for technology.

... What game are you playing?

"In game terms, illegal and pirated software - and also programs that a character has coded himself (p.118) - degrade over time..." Unwired, page 109, Pirated Software, second paragraph. Perhaps you didn't read that?

Care you provide any references? I'm pretty sure that hardware and programs Rating 7+ function just like those at Ratings 6 and under - they just have different Availabilities, Costs, and Restriction Ratings (War!, page 162).


I'll cede that they cannot patch, as they don't have a Software skill, but that doesn't prevent them from downloading a patched copy, which is functionally similar and can be done with Hacking, Exploit, Copy, and a couple other programs. They can also download patched copies from warez sites.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. If you're saying that you can make tens of thousands of just by coding one R6 or R8 Firewall, I think you're not looking at thing properly. If that program degrades one point every two months and is considered Forbidden to use, I don't think too many copies are going to sell. And even if it does, why are you 'running anyways? Why not get a corp job and stay out of the danger of the shadows?


1) ... What? Probing the Target is a Hacking + Exploit (System + Firewall, 1 hour) Test in VR, 1 day interval in AR (SR4A, page 236, Probing the Target). Where are you getting these rules from?

2) I didn't say Admin for the R8; I said it is easier to hack a R8 than it is to get Admin access on a R4, which is true (Threshold 8 vs. Threshold 10). Once you are in there are other options.


Obviously you haven't seen the things I post and talk about. I most definitely do not make the "PC's are normal" assumption. Again, I am simply showing you how your House-Rules do not mesh well with other established rules or where the RAW already does what you are trying to House-Rule.

In order to better help your House-Rule template I think you'd better post all the Matrix rewrites you are using. Without that context a lot of what you are trying to say simply doesn't make sense.

EDIT:


Look at that paragraph I've quoted and keep referencing.

I know, Neraph. I'm saying that some people consider the FAQ as negating that. I'm not among them, myself.

Neraph: the Unwired errata changed degradation.

"So ware programmed by the hacker and Open Source
programs never degrade in this fashion, but may require patching to remain current at the gamemaster’s discretion."

Right. And if he's not a bad GM, that discretion will include mucho SOTA. Just not *planned* obsolescence.

Repeat after me, house rules. As I have said multiple times and in the title of the thread. This is about house rules that I'm thinking of using and pointing out problems with them. I don't care what War says.


Which also requires that a copy be available for download. That isn't the case on stuff you code yourself.


You think Firewalls are Forbidden? And yes, you can see a single program of that level for upwards of a hundred K if you have the contacts or rep. Thanks to the Matrix you have world wide market access, at 3K a copy sell a hundred K copies and you made 300K. Someone like NeoNET would sell a hundred million copies, making them 3 billion. They would gladly pay you a few hundred K for your program, either to sell it themselves or to keep it off the market for others. This is exactly the kind of thing that they regularly hirer runners to steal. As for why characters run, it almost never has to do with the money. Any hacker PC worth his salt can hack a luxury lifestyle without any problem. Any PC mage worth his salt can whip up a few hundred K worth of magic services or items without a problem. At that level you aren't running for the cost of your lifestyle.


Unwired, the bit about finding the weaknesses of a given program.


Threshold is system+Firewall. That's a Threshold of 16 to get you a user account. Threshold 14 get's you Admin access on an R4 node.


What part of what I have posted is not internally consistent? Throw everything that War, Unwired, and 4A say that contradicts what I have posted out the window and then tell me if there is any area that the removed rules cover that I am missing, an exploit that I'm not seeing, an ambiguity that I should clear up, a balance problem that my rules create, etc.


Pretty sure there is another line buried somewhere in there about the degradation not actually being monthly for self coded things but I could be wrong.

Ummmmm... 3,000 per Copy and 100,000 Thousand Copies does not equal 300,000 . Try Again.
lets see... 3,000 x 100,000 = 30,000,000

And lets see... NeoNet just made: 300,000,000,000... Yep, that's right, 300 BILLION NUYEN.

So, Why are you running, exactly?

Thank's, note to self : don't do math while sleepy :. The point stands, sell a thousand copies and you pocket 300K. Just like the mage selling orcalum can pocket in the neighborhood of 300K a month doing that.

As for why you run, it's never about money. Any 400 BP runner has the skills to be living a high or luxury lifestyle without any problem. These are all people who could choose, at any time, to walk into any AAA mega and have a clean SIN, a DNA Reprint, and a Luxury lifestyle on another continent just for agreeing to work for the corp. Unless a runner has truly hacking off the Corporate Court in their backstory then they can retire pretty much whenever they want if they are willing to go corporate.

These people are running because they have chosen to do so for whatever reason. It could be that they recognize that corp life for them would essentially be a prison, it could be that they are ideologically opposed, it could be that they are a thrill seeker; but whatever the reason it's not money. In our primary campaign all of us are running with the end goal of creating/taking over an AAA and ending up on the Corporate Court (kinda like the Nanosecond Buyout), we are running because it is the best way to build what we want.

Hell, Spoofing a medium lifestyle is a threshold 12 extended test with an interval of 1 day. Get a rating 6 spoof program and 2 points in Hacking and you can buy enough hits to secure your lifestyle with a weeks worth of work. Someone rolling 20 dice and able to buy 5 hits could have a High Lifestyle for an investment of 10 days of effort per month. Willing to invest 20 days? That's a Luxury Lifestyle.

And at that point you are not really playing Shadowrun, though. Which is MY point.
Yes, you can start out best of the world. Why would you even want to do that? How boring.

It's not that you can start out the best in the world, it's that if you bother to use the default numbers for character creation you are starting out as near the best in the world if you specialize or a generalist who can compete with the second best in the world in half a dozen fields.

And you need to be that good to stand a chance in hell of surviving a real shadowrun. Ghosting through an extraterritorial research facility to upload a little virus that will provide misleading lab results is the kind of job you get hired to perform. In real life the fairly standard runs you are undertaking would be comparable to things like ghosting Skunkworks and lifting the plans for the next gen bomber. It's technically doable with a team consisting of one of the best infiltration expects, one of the best hackers, one of the best confidence men, etc. on the planet working together.

Standard runs require, as a prerequisite for even attempting them with any chance of success, that the team making the attempt be (as a team) one of the best collections of talent on the planet. Sure, other teams have a better runner or a better hacker or a better adept but very few teams have between 4 and 10 prime runners on them.

It's far from boring, but it does require both the players and GM to understand what they are playing and the opposition they face; along with just how rare the PC's are. Even with all that the players are always one mistake away from calling down the full power of a mega on their heads and being dead.

That 6/6 AA Research base you are hitting might not have anyone on staff who is individually as good as you but what they do have is the outer shell of nodes being five layers deep and constantly patrolled by different kinds of IC with the nodes shutting down and rerouting themselves in a near random pattern and a dozen spiders loaded down with ware and gear comparable to the PC's sitting in the systems. For physical security the entire building (inside and out) is covered by mutually overlapping sensor networks hard linked to different nodes and patrolled by 30 or so former soldiers loaded down to near cyber zombie levels with crome and bioware and likely equipped with mil spec armor. Magical security is made up of 5 nested wards (including the advanced types from Street Magic) with bound spirits placed in stationary, mutually covering, locations to detect anyone unauthorized and with other spirits wandering around.

That's the kind of place that the PC's get hired to penetrate as standard. If hiring a couple dozen gangers to smash a place up would work then the Johnson would do so instead of hiring a team of runners.

And that's assuming it's a commissioned run in the first place. It's far more likely that the team uses their contacts to find a mark, scopes the place out, blows a few hundred thousand on equipment and bribes to pull off the run, extracts what they wanted, and then sells it to a Johnson that they know will be interested. Congratulations, you spent 3 months of effort planning and executing that run, blew 500K on expenses, extracted paydata that you sell to a Johnson for a million, split the profit 5 ways, dump half of it into covering your living expenses, and in the end make out with 50K. Want to buy that High lifestyle so that you are set for life? That's 20 runs, at a run every 3 months that would be 5 years of hard core running. Want to buy that Luxury lifestyle? That's 200 runs, at a run every 3 months it would take you 50 years to afford it.

You aren't running for nuyen.

Those are possible runs, but there are certainly others. There are different power levels.

That's the US government. It has a vested interest in dealing with such things. Lone Star? They have a vested interest in looking like they are dealing with such things.

When it will cost a trillion nuyen and 10 years of effort to track down and eliminate those responsible and LS (or KE or any mega that hasn't been personally hacked off) can spend a few million to frame some random gangers for the crime and have them taken down within a month at the outside, what do you think happens?

Corps, absent really special circumstances, only care about the bottom line. Being seen as ineffective could cost LE their contract, catching those responsible would take long enough that LS would already be branded a failure in the eyes of the public and cost a not insignificant amount of LS's budget, framing people will be done fast enough to make LS look like they are really on the ball and will cost a few million nuyen.


Does it have the data she was after and how hard it is to find? Was she facing technomancer opposition? Did she know what piece of data she wanted specifically or was it just a more general trawling? Much like everything else in SR, you have to know what you are after to some extent.

And again, it's far more efficient to hire her to recover that internal report on Ares black ops for last quarter that is sitting buried on a system in a deep vault that would take an entire army to penetrate; and that is honestly an easier search because you are after a single discrete piece of data that is sitting on a single server.


Oh, agreed. But when you have a team that can reliably hit such a facility, well it takes a very extreme street mission indeed to cause them many problems and they will dominate on that level.

Now, play with 300 BP runners are those street runs become a threat with hitting that 6/6 Evo Research facility being something that the players aren't even remotely equipped to handle and if the Johnson asked him to they would say something along the lines of "Now that facility is simply beyond our abilities, however I can put you in contact with a team that specializes in those kinds of real high end hits. For a fee of course." 10K later and the Johnson has an introduction to that team of Primer Runners after a relatively simple courier mission for the PC's, perhaps with some gangers having to be dealt with on the way.

If you want to play street it can be plenty fun, but if you look at the actual meaning of the abilities, skills, and gear that the 400 BP default character generation method produces then the runners manifestly aren't street; they have their toe in the door for the big leagues and are firmly on the path to becoming the next generation of Runner Legends, if they don't die thirty seconds into their first job thanks to stupidity.

Sure, but the point is that there are different power levels just for 400BP runners. While they can start near the top in some things, it's really not obligatory, and even the munchkins have tons of room to grow. What you described is well beyond starter runners, and a complete mismatch for the fluff. If the rules are failing (and dramatically!) to match the fluff, fix the rules.

Indeed... Assuming that you HAVE to run against the Zero Zones of the World is NOT the default of the system. All you need do is look at the Missions products to see that.
It is ONE type of run that you can do, but is by no means the ONLY type of run that you can do.

And I am sorry, if everyone in the group is not at the same level (for many multiple skills) then they will all Die in that Zero Zone. One failed Intrusion roll (BY ANYONE) and you are borked beyond reason. It is not generally something that a Starting 400 BP team can handle reliably. Hell, I have seen highly competant teams of 400 BP + 300 Karma Runners not able to handle such things, reliably, run after run.

I don't have the errata on that.
EDIT But I like that: "they don't degrade unless the GM says they degrade" - reminds me of Operation Time for vehicles/drones ("6 hours unless it isn't") /EDIT


I don't care what you repeat: when you started with a few House-Rules and neglected to mention a number of other House-Rules you are basing your few on, that creates problems. I brought up War! because a lot of the House-Rules you are mentioning, like I said already, are already addressed in the actual rulebooks.


I never said it was.


As per War!, all programs over Rating 6 are Forbidden. You are having to specifically ignore parts of the rules about freeware and program degradation to arrive at your numbers, so no wonder you want to re-write the rules for the Matrix.


I was talking about Probing the Target or Hacking on the Fly.


Hacking on the Fly. It's Hacking + Exploit against Firewall, so Firewall 8 would be threshold 8 and Firewall 4 with Admin privileges would be threshold 10.


It's not the internal inconsistencies, it's the fact we don't have access to all the other apparent House-Rules that your few additional suggestions are based off of. Also, underlined sections say it all - ignore the rules and then tell me where the rules say you can't?


Apparently in the errata which I lack, which sounds like pretty bad errata to me.

Errata aside; War is newer, and the rules there take precedence. ALL programs above Rating 6 Degrade per the rules in War. You cannot stop it, nor patch them.

Or tilt the fluff. Prime runners are supposed to be the people who can crack zero zones without leaving a trace; not easily, not without a ton of planning, not without a fair bit of luck, but they are capable of it. And 400 BP PC's are about the minimum that can do that, they have just broken into the big leagues skill and ability wise; either because they are outrageously good at one thing (hacking or magic or killing people or conning people or whatever) or because they are master level good at tons of things and because they have, quite literally, more nuyen invested in equipment than the average wage slave makes in three years.

The kind of gang land and street level missions that are common in the various mission supplements are things that, unless they get spectacularly unlucky or fuck up badly, are relatively low risk for this level of runner.


And that's exactly the point. This is the level where you can do such a run. You have the skills, the gear, the experience, and (hopefully) the luck. You may well die or fail buy you have a chance. Now do it successfully a dozen or so times and you are a Legend, most runners are going to die their first time trying such a run. Doing those kinds of runs is what being a Prime Runner is.

At that point you aren't running for money, you are running for whatever personal reason drives you; and that could be as simple as wanting to prove that you can, that you really are better than that Megacorp with it's trillions of nuyen and hundreds of millions of people.

At lower BP/Karma levels you are a criminal and "runner" because you have no choice. Your skill set isn't sufficiently valuable or unique enough for a mega to drop a hundred k to erase you and give you a new identity a continent away with a million nuyen a year pay check. You might be pushing the level of a rank and file solider, mage, programmer, or spin master but those things are a dime a dozen and most of your competition has better psych profiles.

So you run, you commit criminal acts for money. Your skills still make you one of the best agents in the criminal world, you stand well above the rank and file muscle, programmers, or spell slingers of the gangs and cartels. You can knock over that small time corp with a few rent-a-cops, an average spider, some basic security sensors, a drone or two, a ward, and maybe a moderately powerful bound spirit; and get away clean. But you are still small fry, powerful only on the local level, dependent upon your word of mouth rep, your Johnsons are likely to stiff you, you make long term enemies when you run against people, having some combat ware makes you a big fish, that you can afford that SOTA comlink makes you rich.


What part of "These are house rules" do you not get. House rules are defined as changes to the rules as they are written. I know that War says differently, I know that 4A says differently, I know that Unwired says differently. I have chosen to change what they say to something else, hence them being called house rules.

I want to know if my house rules are neglecting to cover something that the rules as written do cover. If my rules are too powerful or too weak, if there are any gaping flaws that I'm not seeing. Not if the books say differently. These are again house rules, if the book conflicts with something that the house rules say then the house rules take precedence.


In which case the node get's to try and detect you are a free action.


...No. It's quite simple, forget everything that War!, 4A, or Unwired says about anything that my house rules contradict. Now tell me if the result works or if you see deep flaws, ambiguities, or neglected areas that those house rules don't cover.

Like when you pointed out that War had all programs over level 6 degrade without any way to stop it. I had intended for the third house rule to replace that but didn't write it unambiguously enough, now I have gone back and cleared up the ambiguity. Thank you.

The problem, Emperor Tippy, is that, while you are referencing House Rules that you have explained, they are Unfortunately referencing/relying upon OTHER House Rules that you have not explained (as was mentioned above). This is the crux of the opposition you are receiving. You cannot ask what we think, without providing ALL the house rules that you are using. When somone mentions "this or that" RAW rule that you are bypassing or changing, it is because it is not obvious that you have already changed the underlying connections to other rules. Without ALL the rules you have changed, it is rather difficult to give an analysis of what you HAVE presented here.

So again... Please provide all the changes you have made so we have a better understanding of what you are doing, and where your changes interact. Without it, we will be unable to give you a comprehensive evaluation without referring to the RAW, which you may otherwise have altered.

Hopefully this explains the dilemma a bit better...

Actually Prime Runners are NPCs.


I think the last page of a few of us telling you that these rules are too powerful should tell you that these rules are too powerful. When you radically alter the established rules in order to get significantly higher-end gear to PCs with minimal effort then yes, your rules are too powerful.

Got to agree with Neraph on this one, as well. What you are proposing seems way too powerful.
*shrug*

I can see how your perceptions might be skewed, though, if you think your PCs are Prime Runners who are setting up a CC *mega*corp and routinely doing 500k runs that kill hundreds of people and take months to plan. That's a whole different game than most of us are familiar with, and your rules might fit it (it's impossible for us to guess).