My view on Israel:

History
The two major events in it's SR history already detailed in Shadowrun cannon are the "2004" chemical strike and the 2034 (?) EuroWar II in which Israel was attacked by the Alliance of Allah (AoA). In addition to this, the Israeli Prime Minister Haim Sichon was assassinated in 2017. So I have to begin from these facts.

The 2004 chemical strike caused massive political turmoil and a sharp turn to the far right; the hundreds of thousands of victimes caused an immense public outroar, which was harnessed by the extreme right to gain political support by blaiming the local Arab population of assisting the Lybians in one way or another. Race riots (and attacks on leftist activists) broke out, and the government was force to resign, declaring general elections at the end of that year. The riots, however, only intensified; eventually, IDF joint chief General Yair Berinski declared martial law and ordered the army to occpy major cities to restore order. The elections were cancelled and a "national emergency government" was established, with Berinski at its head and with sweeping powers. Most civil rights were suspended and the military was given a free hand in dealing with public unrest. Order was restored, at the price of freedom.

Backing the new martial law were several local corporates, who used the general nationalist sentiment to put forward a "protectionist" policy, namely the nationalization of foriegn corporate assets and the erection of tax barriers to give local industry an advantage. Moreover, trade unions and strikes were outlawed, and any labour dispute was swiftly and harshly dealt with - to the corporate favor, ofcourse. Resistance to this regime arose both from outside (foriegn corporates who wanted their assets back and the import/outport taxes removed, and from within, mainly from the workers who found themselves far more opressed and expolited than before, and the general citizenary crushed under the martial law's boot. Meanwhile, refugeees fleeing from the contaminated Tel Aviv area streamed to the Negev and to the extreme north, surrounding Beer Sheva and Kiriat Shmona with refugee camps, shanti towns and newly-built slums.

In 2008, the economical situation, coupled with an international embargo, gave rise to a severe food shortage, and to bread riots. The masses poured out to the streets in protest, and the military was split between those who joined the protest and those who followed their order to the letter. Fighting ensued, and eventually the riots were crushed, but the nationalist sentiment, the driving force behind Berinski's government, was more and more being replaced with a feeling of dissatisfaction, of discontent and of opression. Out of Bloody 2008 grew several resistance organizations, both political and guerilla, and the government was once more destabilized.

The VITAS epidemic of 2010 was the catalyst of change; the inadaquate medical system was unable to cope with a disaster on that scale, and the masses stormed the hospitals in demand of treatment. 6 years of military opression finally give off their fruit, and a revolution is narrowly avoided by Berinski's resignation and the declaration of open elections, in which Chaim Sichon (funded by several multinational corporations) is elected as Prime Minister. Despite the lifting of most military laws, the fast economical growth of the latter half of 2010 gave extreme profit to the multinationals - and nearly nothing to the local masses. Moreover, the Resource Rush hit Israel at its full force, almost tripling the level of pollution within six months and causing extreme environmental damage. A leak from the Ramat Hovav toxic waste storage facility added insult to injury by contaminating the nearby area and causing several thousands of deathes.

Out of the ecological issues and the broken economical promises (well, corporate profits were skyrocketing, but unemployment was only deepening) gave rise nin 2011 to several new radical political factions, mainly the Matriarchal Revolutionary Party (MRP), combining socialist and ecological demands with a mystical world outlook and Mother Earth worship. The strange events of 2011 and 2012 gave fuel to the new movements, but also to a fundementalist Jewish sect, headed by a "Messiah" and claiming that the Day of Judgement was coming; the Messiah performed miracles, some of which even whistood scientific evaluation. To everyone's surprise, MRP's leader, Moriya Kedem, has performed similar deeds, claiming that she was calling Mother earth to her help. Open violence broke out when Sichon tried to sign an agreement with the Palestinian authorities and to evacuate several settlements, and the Messianic movement intervened, using "miracles" to prevent this. However, by 2013 it became clear that magic was by no way a singular "miracle", and the SHABAK (Shierut Bitachon Klali, General Security Service, the Israeli equivalent to the FBI+NSA) began its own crash course for mages; by 2014, the Messianic movement began to disintegrate, both under governmental pressure and due to the general acceptance of magic as a religion-independant force. The MRP, on the other hand, having a wide social and enviromental agenda, came out of this conflict almost unscratched.

Despite these events and the growth of MRP, Chaim Sichon was re-elected in 2014. The SAIM-US civil war further damages the fragile Israeli economy, however, and public unrest grows. The MRP, prevented from running to the Knesset (the Israeli parliament) due to "the abuse of magical laws", organizes several massive strikes in solidarity with the Native Americans. Lingering nationalist sentiment, coupeled with a wide stream of corporate money to the Israeli military establishment, prevent the MRP from pushing the masses forwards towards a full-scale revolution.

In 2017, however, Chaim Sichon was assassinated by an unidentified assaliant, who was killed shortly after by security forces. Despite the general MRP position against personal terrorism, the government blamed them for the assassination and outlawed them, cracking down on the opposition party with force; Moriya Kedem went into hiding while most of her party's leadership was killed or imprisoned. While an all-out martial law was not declared, brutal repression of any opposition was carried out by the SHABAK, supported by corporate security troops. This did nothing but radicalize the opposition - and especially gave rise to the Bleeding Skies anarcho-ecological terorrist organization, which had more magic on its side than even the MRP.

The Treaty of Denver of 2018 brought hundreds of thousands of American jews to Israel after they had to leave the NAN-occupied areas. Many of these refugees had to leave in a hurry and had little money to use, and the 14-years old refugee camps around Kiriat Shmona (and the few uncontaminated ones near Beer Sheva) grew. Meanwhile, the Chief Rabbinate of Israel declared Elves and Dwarves to be Humans, and magic to be in accordance to the Jewish faith.

The early 2020's saw the fast growth of Israel economy, though most profits streamed into forien and local corporate pockets. The Goblinization of 2021 caused minor riots, but the social and environmental issues still dominated the political scene; a Faculty for Magical Studies was added to the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in 2025.

To be continued...

I don't want to stop your net material idea at all, but 2064 Israel will be appearing soon in print. But that shouldn't stop you from making your own material if you want to.

Yes, it will appear soon, but I suppose it will recieve only a slight treatment (SoA is going to talk about SO many countries). And still, I try to put out my (native) version.

Well, when it comes to rules just copy the Sioux Wildcat martial art across from CC, there's your Krav Maga

The economical boom of the 2020's was abrupty ended in Febuary 8, 2029, when the Crash Virus hits the global grids, causing a worldwide economical and infrastructure collapse, and Israel was no exception to this. By late March that year, most of Israel was without electricity or telecommunication, and the food and water supply was irregular at best. Once again, bread riots break out, and the masses pour to the streets; the MRP, slowly re-built during the 2020's, leads a city-wide takeover of utilities and governmental offices in Kiriat Shmona, and is soon joined by revolting soldiers from nearby bases. The Matriarchal Commune of the Galilee (MCG) declares independance from Israel in April 3, 2029, and begans the construction of a quasi-socialist, quasi-awakened democracy, while directing the masses in rebuilding the infrastructure in the "panhandle" of the Galilee, which was taken over by the Commune.

This revolution, followed by similar attempts in the rest of Israel, caused the Israeli government to declare martial law and send whatever forces still loyal to it to crush the revolting masses. While most of Israel was re-taken by the central government by the end of May, most of the Upper Galilee was still under MCG control; the rest was under strict martial law and supervised by an "Emergency Government" located, for its safety, deep under the "HaKirya" military headquarters in Tel Aviv. Unlike the MCG, most of Israel did not fully recover from the infrastructure failure, and instead the government poured many billions of Shekels into modernising the military forces and fortifying its police control over the population. This period saw the introduction of Magical Corps in the IDF, the complete legalization of the use of magic in Mossad and SHABAK investigations and the over-armament of the Israeli police.

Ironically enough, this militarization, originally aimed against the risk of intenal insurrection and against the MCG, helped Israel fight a completely different foe - the Alliance of Allah (AoA). In 2034, the newly-formed AoA stormed Europe, and side force of this invasion attacked Israel through Jordan, Palastine and Egypt and the MCG through Syria. Initial fighting saw the defenders lose ground to the invasion, and by late 2034 Jerusalem was cut off and the invaders have reached the eastern suburbs of Tel Aviv. House to house fighting occured in the surrounded Kiriat Shmona, but the MCG defenders, including many Awakened individuals, were able to hold the heavily-fortified center of the city (and a few of the western and southwestern Refugee Camps) against the mostly mundance (and anti-awakened) AoA invaders. The Israeli government debated the use of its remaining Nuclear assets against the AoA-backing nations, but a few successes on the Negev front in the early 2035 caused the limited cabinet/general staff (there was little difference between them at these years) to reject the proposal. Nevertheless, the massive counter-offensive of Febuary 2035 saw limited use of chemical weapons and a wider use of biological weapons, contaminating many of the AoA's supply depots in the area. In addition, both the IDF and the MCG's forces used magic, sawing death and confusion among the attackers. This, coupled by AoA's failures on the European fronts, allowed the defenders to retake most of Israel by the end of 2035; following Mullah Sayid Jazrir's assasination in 2036, a truce was signed between Israel and several factions of the fructured AoA, creating a a Demilitarized Zone in the West Bank, the Golan Hieghts and the Gaza Strip.

The MCG, while whistanding the invasion, was critically weakened by it, allowing a rapid government offensive to conquer the quasi-awakened state and to re-annex it to Israel; the MRP was outlawed and its members prosecuted, causing most of the remaining organization to go into hiding.

Israel survived the Second Eurowar, but the entire country was in ruins. Out of the flourishing economy of the 2020's now remained smoking ruins and burned craters, and most of the population lived in shanti towns and makeshift military shelters. The moderate opposition party "Ahdut" (Unity), headed by Avraham Maayan, recieved massive corporate funding and was able to force the already shaky ruling military clique to resign; a pro-capitalist "democracy" was restored by early 2037.

To be continued...

Right. Why do I have the distinctive feeling of charging stark naked against a nest of hornet spirits over a landmine test area with the occasional mine-drone whizzing past whistling Junkie XL’s song „Love Like Razorblade“ about playing Russian Roulette?
Oh, well, here goes...

The two major events in it's SR history already detailed in Shadowrun cannon are the "2004" chemical strike and the 2034 (?) EuroWar II in which Israel was attacked by the Alliance of Allah (AoA). In addition to this, the Israeli Prime Minister Haim Sichon was assassinated in 2017. So I have to begin from these facts.

That one mention of Israel in the original material already was bollocks. I can’t think of a nation or area mentioned in SR where reality has overtaken fiction so radically.
In my storyline the chemical strike and nuclear counter-strike never happened. Incidentally, the Alliance of Allah also never happened. Putting up a new Berlin Wall around Israel seemed to fantastic? Give me a break, whoever came up with Lybia.
But as you chose to stay with this, I’ll not be a spoil-sport and continue.

If you want waterjacking on the industrial scale, just look to the Euphrates and Tigris. The amount of bickering and fighting between the up and downstream countries over water usage rights and dams is amusing.

Considering where those two rivers pass through, it's not so much amusing as it is pathetic and sad.

@Trashman:
Believe me, the Israeli military is neither liberal nor democratic; it's a military like all conscript militaries worldwide (France in the 1960's, for example). And the generals are heavily involved in politics IRL - the last Chief of Staff became (and still is) the "civilian" Minister of Defence within days from the end of his military service, not to mention the high percentage of former generals in the business and politics communities. And there were things similar to martial law in the 1950's, not to mention actual martial law on the Arab villages until 1968.

About the unions - where do you think that the MRP and the rest of the resistance movements came from?

"MRP" is "Miflaga Mahapchanit Matriarchalit", later (2040's+) "Immah Ahat", that is "One Mother".

And there IS a semi-feminist, quasi-matriarchal movement in Judaism - especially in Reformic Judaism, women who wish to be equal to men in prayers and so on, and some who are "unsure" in respect to "God"'s gender. And there is some Biblical mention of a semi-matriarchal tribal society (Debora the Profetess "judging" the people and many other small mentions).

And the boycott is only around petroleum; the main oil-producing countries are in a cold-war with Israel (Arab Nations) or not-so-happy to produce oil at all (NAN). Guns, tech, uranium etc is still widely traded between Israel and the forein corps (who control it in SR).

Um, why do we have two threads on the same topic?

Two different topics. One just wants to know how Israel is portrayed in SR, this one suggests a netbook for Israel in SR. Ghost only knows why.

Nah, why limit it to Israel? Do the whole Middle East while you're at it!

Well, you're not really likely to get people from anywhere else.

Is SR even published in Arabic?

Edit: Or Hebrew, for that matter?

Shalom Omer,

I assume you posted this on the forum for input, advice, or help? Here are some of my ideas in a very rough draft. It would have to be detailed out, modified, or deleted to fit, but what I have listed is based on history and future speculation.

Overview: Some points to keep in mind when designing Israel.

1) The main point in developing Israel would be that the Holy Land is likely magical in nature itself. The Jews have never given up on Israel for two thousand years of persecution. Europeans have butchered them, Arabs have ethnically cleansed them from the entire middle east, but they love the land dearly. With that much love and history there is likely something to it that should be brought out in SR.

2) Also, Israelis are a very liberal and tolerant society, in contrast with their neighbors. When meta humans express I am sure the Israelis will welcome them as people regardless of race. I am just as certain the Arabs won't. apparently there is a Jihad at some point to back my opinion up.

3) Israelis are very industrious, they are on the cutting edge of technology. It is likely that per capita they are some of the most highly trained and advanced thinkers we have.

4) Every Israeli is a soldier by neccessity. Military technology like cyber ware, armor, and weaponry will be a common sight. It is not unusual to see hitch hikers wearing street clothes carrying machine guns. Nor is it unusual for a family sedan with kids inside to stop and pick these armed men up. It is just part of unique Israeli society.

5) Much of the reason the world can't openly side with the only democracy in the middle east is because of our dependency on oil. We promised Palestine to the Jews and in good faith they came and created roads, hospitals, and industry, only to be told that they must give up first 75% of the Jewish Homeland (Jordan), and now another division of what's left (future Palestine). Each time the Jews spent their fortunes thinking they were home, each time they were murdered and chased out of the lands they loved, all the while thousands upon thousands of Arabs immigrated to the region illegally in search of better lives their own countries were and are still unable to provide.

6) Once Japan takes over the energy market, oil loses it's value. With nothing to blackmail the world with the Arab governments will likely collapse. Like Africa, they will have little resources but a huge population to sustain. Open support for Israel will increase, human rights will not be so easily ignored, and governments will be free to take a closer look at the problem. Islam, of course, the driving force behind the intolerance, will still be there as an opiate for the masses of miserable citizens throughout the mideast. And their leaders will continue to scape goat the Israelis for anything that goes wrong and divert attention from themselves.

7) With a land of green growing life amid a desert and collective working kibbutz style, Israel itself will be a nice place to live in contrast to the great desert and the wild bandits that will populate it.

With Israel's technology edge they will be able to accomplish much with small numbers.

The biggest event affecting Israel in my opinion is the change from reliance on oil to the availability of cheap microwave energy beamed to earth from solar collectors. Pg 24 under Japan Inc. The reason I think this will be the biggest event is because at the moment the west is a slave to the whims of the oil producing despots. We allow Islamic tyrants to get away with crimes against humanity for one simple reason, our dependence on oil and the fear of what those who control it might do if angered.

Most of the world's oil wealth was placed in the hands of Islamic nations. The UN has around 200 members, 54 of these are Islamic theocracies. Any vote concerning Israel starts with a 54 to 1 disadvantage. Along with this vote discrepancy comes strong arm bullying by the oil thugs. The third world must comply out of a real fear, an oil embargo would crush any emerging economy on earth. This makes the cheap energy provided by the Japanese megas a critical event to break the power of the Islamic oil tyrants. With nothing to fear from the Islamic nations the third world is free to look at the true facts on the ground. The EU no longer has to play along with the charade either. This comes at a perfect time in history since the one bastion of reason and support, the US, is fracturing.

So with this event in the first decade of the 21st century, it is reasonable to say that there was a desperate "chemical strike" by fanatics as they recognized their power slipping away.

In 2011, the year of chaos, weather patterns changed and Israel becomes the promised land of old. It literally becomes a "land of milk and honey", some say it is due to the great reverence thousands of years of Jews have held for the land. UGE Israelis are accepted with open arms the same as Jews of all races are accepted today in Israel. Israelis have traditionally been very tolerant of all others, fully 20% of the population are Arab Muslims with full rights the same as with Jewish Israelis, same sex marriage is accepted, and women are treated as equals in every way.

In 2012 as waves of secessions were hitting all over the world the so called Palestinians declare independence. At first they claim Gaza and the territory liberated from Jordanian occupation in 1967, Judea and Sumeria (west bank). They use Ramallah as a temporary capitol, but maintain Jerusalem is to be the eventual capitol of Palestine once the Israelis have been exterminated. Immediately the Islamic nations recognize the land from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea as being Palestine and begin arming the Palestinians with billions of dollars worth of heavy weaponry. Much of the weaponry ends up in the hands of terror groups and Israel comes under constant bombardment. Lacking the ability to govern themselves the entire country falls into chaos and bitter infighting. To divert attention from themselves and their abuses the first action the Palestinian Authority takes is to declare that the Jews living in what was previously known as Israel are illegal squatters. Any Jews found in the part of the Holy Land now called Palestine are rounded up and shot. Being Jewish becomes a capital crime. Islam becomes the official religion of Palestine and elections are cancelled in favor of an Islamic Council.

2017 Haim Sichon was slain. Without more info it is hard to say why? My suggestion is that he was killed by Jewish patriots because he was going to hand over East Jerusalem to the Palestinians as a gesture of good will. It is likely the Palestinians would have viewed this as a weakness, so this averts war for the moment.

By 2018 the last of the Jews has been ethnically cleansed from Palestine and flush with victory the population is clamoring for more blood. To placate the mob and keep attention focused away from the corrupt governing body, Palestinian leaders begin a series of pogroms against UGE Arabs, driving the Palestinian elves and dwarves underground. At the same time fatwas are issued all acrosss the middle east and the great hunt begins. Jihad is declared on meta humanity and millions are slaughtered in the blood bath. For the most part the entire middle east is cleansed of dwarves and elves the same as it is cleansed of Jews.

In 2019 Palestine with it's new weapons attacks and conquers Jordan, uniting over 80% of the original Palestine. The Hashemite king Abdullah is exiled back to Saudi Arabia. His American born wife is executed along with their children.

In 2020 the great dragon Aden destroys Tehran as punishment. The Ayatollahs and the Alliance of Islam declares magic and metahumanity to be the work of Satan and blames Israel for all it's problems. The rest of the middle east in despair and lacking the oil clout they were accustomed to follows suit. Much rioting and fracturing of governments takes place, mostly along tribal and clan lines. Bands of nomadic tribesmen begin raiding each other's communities much like the old days. With oil becoming next to worthless there is just not enough resources to sustain the population.

In 2021 goblinization hit. Once again another Jihad swept across the middle east. Even worse than the previous one. Orks and trolls were beheaded in public displays. Only Israel, ever tolerant, accepted it's ork and troll population. Once again Israel was blamed for the evils that befell the middle east.

Between 2020 and 2034 tensions escalate between Israel and the newly armed and expanded Palestine. With an exploding population, and dwindling aid money the people become more and more restless. With the collapse of the UN and the end of the age of oil the Palestinians find themselves with nothing to build an economy on and no more hand outs to keep them sustained. All they have in abundance are weapons of war and a desire to commit genocide on the Jews once and for all. From birth they are taught that the Jews are the enemy and that the duty of every Palestinian is to kill Jews and rid them from the middle east by any means.

In 2034 Eurowar II breaks out and the Alliance of Islam uses the distraction to attack Israel. After months of mobilization and build up, coupled with genocidal rhetoric, the Arab nations once again attacked Israel with the goal of driving them into the sea. With no support and no friends, the tiny country of Israel once again produces a miracle. Nuclear weapons launched at Israel from Iran and Libya never impact. With no pogroms against magic use, elite IDF forces quickly destroy advancing columns of tanks and infantry. Israel, always a leader in bleeding edge technology fielded cyber modified units, the Gholani Brigade field tested cyber technology and performed very well in battle, taking only light casualties while inflicting enormous losses. New innovative tactics by israeli generals combined magic and technology to once again destroy a much larger force arrayed against them.

The war is over in just 3 weeks, Israeli counter attacks had expanded the border of Israel to include the entire area of the Holy Land. With no desire to expand it's border further, Israel stops it's advance and the Arabs sue for peace.

In 2035, after much debate and division, Israel annexes the now liberated Holy Land and begins an unpopular program of forced relocation. Activists across the world descend on Israel to act as human shields, liberals and anarchists disrupt IDF operations, and governments recall their ambassadors. The Arab nations lacking funds and their armies beaten are powerless to intervene. The Mullahs curse and vow revenge. The Israeli information service seems woefully unprepared by the media hype surrounding the event. They point out that millions of Hindus and Muslims were exchanged between India and Pakistan. Millions of Germans were uprooted from East Poland. Millions of Fins were deported from russia. Turks and Greeks exchanged populations. And that the entire region was brutally cleansed of Jews and meta humans by these same people. Etc... but the world does not listen.

Coinciding with decades of rising anti-semitism, massive pogroms are instituted across Europe to also cleanse that region of any Jews. In short, millions of hostile Arabs are transferred out of Israel to live with culturally, ethnically, and religiously similar peoples, while millions of Jews are forced to flee to Israel and learn to speak Hebrew. For their part the IDF allows compensation for the departing Arabs, but the incoming Jews are arriving with the shirts on their backs.

In 2036 the Revava Party gains control of the knesset. A state of war exists between Israel and all of it's surrounding neighbors. Military service is mandatory for every Israeli with all governmental benefits tied to length of stay, rank, and performance. Work begins on the Third Temple. The Alliance of Islam declares that the destruction of the Al Aqsa's Mosque is a crime against Allah and vows to never end the war until every last Jew is annihilated from the face of the earth, (so what's new?)

To present, the quasi communistic ideals of the kibbutz are implemented creating a government based on military service, dedication to the state, and the preservation of the Holy Land.


Conclusion: I think you can picture Israel as a walled community, tolerant to others, technologically advanced from it's neighbors. Military hardware will be openly carried and displayed. It will be a fort mentality, where everyone inside is a friend and everyone outside is an enemy. They will likely guard the Holy Land with great pride. And they will likely be under constant attack from forces on their borders. I imagine there will be lots of opportunity for runners to make forays into the wilderness to destroy mortar pits, rescue captured parties, etc...

...

...

No more crack.

See my Israel 2070 thread for my viewpoint. I'll expand on it in a bit.

I'm (almost) speechless! This sheds a whole new light on your thought processes Rory.

Interesting take on the 6th world possibilites of the middle east. The heavy anti-islamic bias is understandable, if politically incorrect, and the end result is somewhat plausible.

I'd modify a great deal of that particular history to account for the sudden dissapearance of US-financial support (Israel being the largest receiver), and the vast outnumbering and outgunning that Israel would experience in any large-scale war with the rest of the middle east.

Israel has a history of taking on larger foes and coming out victorious, but it has never had to do so without military and economic support from the US and European nations. The palestinian problem alone could swamp them without such support, unless they decided to become even more brutal in their tactics than they are now. With the rest of the world lost in its own escalating problems, especially Isreal's number 1 supporter, they would truly be alone against a sea of enemies.

Assuming Iran doesn't make it far enough in their nuclear program by this point, there are two possibile ways for israel to survive if a united middle east attacked them.

1) the middle east doesn't unite. Israel can hold its own against one, maybe two other nations at once, and possible grab some land from the deal. This situation would be ideal for Israel, and indeed for much of the rest of the world. A united Islam historically means widespread conquest, 'convert or die' mentalities and the complete union of church and state. Honestly, with the amount of hatred between the two main Islamic sects, I doubt unification is a possibility (The feelings are similar, if more pronounced to a Bible-Belt Protestant Christian Fundamentalists feelings on Catholicism, only going both ways)

2) nuclear weapons. Israel's got 'em, nobody else in the region does. This gives Israel a trump card in any conflict. If the arab nations got as hit as hard as you suggest, though, they are going to be in a state of desperation, and with the amount of weapons, force-fed hatred, jealousy and sheer starvation that you give them, they will be marching en masse into Israel. Not even the Israeli threat of nuclear retaliation would mean much to the arab nations at this point.

If either condition is not met (Fractured middle east or nuclear armament as deterrent), then Israel is going to get pulled under, despite legions of cyber-augmented warriors, smart tactics, and magical integration.

On that note, actually, in MitS, pages 10-11 there is some notes on how Islam accepted magic. The Sunni's take to it fine, and though they find Metas distasteful, I bet they wouldn't be above using them in a war. The Shiites are the ones who forbid magic and stone metahumans (and normal humans, yes, but for slightly different reasons) to death.

Also, many middle east nations were fairly rich and powerful long before they became the oil barons of the world. Loss of that income will force them to re-evaluate, but the reason they were more or less european dominated in the 19th and 20th centuries is because of Europe's superior technological resources. That difference has vanished. I'm sure several of those nations will just collapse into something worse than a central american banana republic, but a couple just might survive the hard times and grow up. (Before the US-invasion, Iraq would have been a good choice for this. Strong-handed dictatorship, prolific propaganda, quelled citizenry and purely secular govornment. If you're in an economic depression, the fastest way out is to find a scapegoat and declare fascism).

So, while I find your idea interesting, I don't find it very likely.

I do like the idea of the holy land getting magic-ed into weirdness. Tibet's got a Veil, something's going on in India (from a line in the corebook), the Australian Outback's a mana-stormed weirdness, blood sacrifice resurgent in Aztlan. All of those are a kind of 'holy land', though not along the lines of Canaan. Does anyone know what's going on in Egypt? (Another holy land) or the South American west coast? Heck, if all these holy lands are gettin' some magical-powerup, what about mesopotamia, THE birthplace of civilization? (Well, I'm not sure what it was during the 4th world, but they had written language in 5000 bc, putting them leagues ahead of everyone else in RL) It's close enough to Israel that I could see one hell of a series of Mana-lines springing up between them.

Edit: This was aimed specifically at Rory's version of things.


and technically, Shiva can be seen as a hermaphrodite, so he can sometimes be a she. Though I prefer to leave that to Parvati/Kali 'cause I think their marital relationship is hilarious.

What's the status of Pakistan by the 2050's? Whilst they didn't join in the Alliance for Allah as I recall, they seem like the easiest place for a couple nukes to conveniently fall off the back of a truck. Hello smoking crater called Tel Aviv. Or carve the heart out of a massed armoured formation.

Sharaloth: Actually, no. A lot of the oil states were really poor before the oil boom of the 70s.

Exceptions exist in some of the tiny Gulf states (Bahrain, Qatar coming immediately to mind), but most of the oil states depend on oil for 60-90% of budgetary revenues.

Without oil, they'd face massive revolts, and would be unlikely to keep their militaries in any useful conditions without the money provided by oil. See the relevant country studies at the Library of Congress.

Sharaloth, thanks for the input. Here is my response to your concerns.

Alright, first of all let's address this:

*shrug* I suppose. It wasn't really a main point of mine, since most of the argument centers around starving masses of angry and desperate people, but what you say, Penta, makes sense. Again, I urge not to dismiss the possibility out of hand simply because it is ulikely (highly unlikely in this case, but then again, so is Israel surviving through the wars it's had, especially if Rory's right and they had no outside support whatsoever during them. So, hey, I guess it could happen).

Edit: Oh, and I think we might be working on different timescales again. The idea of middle-eastern nations regaining the glory days of Byzantium by 2065 is laughable in the extreme. I'm thinking give them a couple centuries.

OK, there I could agree.

Not dismissing anything as *potentially* possible...

But we can set stuff aside as very unlikely.

Wow, Rory, it's as if you read my post, went back, and then worked out a way to read it, word by word, in a completely different way than I had written it. We are obviously talking about entirely different things here, except that I do not insult you, and you do insult me. Over, and over again.

Now, since you've obviously not learned proper etiquette or logical argumenation procedures since the last time I kicked your ass, why don't we just leave this as is? Flame-wars are fun and all, and I know we all want to see more crazy Rory-logic on this board, but let's save it for later and not hijack Omer's thread beyond all hope of recognition.

Ok, first cool off the flames, k?

Yes, the Arab regimes, being the corrupt dictatorships that they are, have used (and in some cases, still try to use) Israel as a universal bogey to scare their population into submittance and unite them by empty hatered. But they are still split and still fight each other over their real interests: see the Iran-Iraq war for example. Sure, the like to speak alot about "destroying Israel", that diverts the population's attention from the fact that their countries are dictatorships and that the rulers are criminals.

Yes, Israel is quite democratic in comparison to the Arab regimes (all of the developed counties are) but it's quite militaristic (originally for justified reasons but this has grown far beyond proportions), and somewhat opressive - and I'm not talking about the Arab population in particular here; I'm talking about brutal capitalism, an extreme gap between haves and have-nots, one million citizens living below the poverty line, 20% of the population not having enough to eat, 11% unemployment, arrest of opposition activists (both from the left and the right) for indefinite amounts of time and torturing them and so on. I live here; I could see it. I see elderly persons rifling through trash cans to find food; I know so many people, who, despite being talented and well-educated, suffer from unemployment. Militarism is in excess, far beyond anything needed for survival. There are too many generals in the government. Too many generals going to give "lectures" at schools. Too much hatered - the Israeli right wing isn't much better than the Arab regimes in terms of propaganda and hatered.

The western media likes to talk all day about the intyernational conflists within the Middle East (blood and explosions attract viewers), but usually forgets entirely about the fact that "Israel" isn't one unit (it's devided into a very few haves and alot of have nots), the "Jewish People" isn't one unit (for the same regions), "Islam" isn't one unit and the "Arab Nations" arne't one unit (they hate each other more than they hate Israel; they've united in 1948 but grew less and less united over time; the "United Arab Republic" experiment between Syria and Egypt in the 1960's fell becauise of these internal conflicts).

In essence, this is a war between two elites who brainwash the masses with pointless hatered and use them as pawns in their games of power and money. The rulers use religion, patriotism, hatered and fear to their advantage.

And Abu Mazen? He isn't a "genocide coordinator" (that's Nasralla, the Hizbullah leader, and even for him it's a fantasy), he's just a corrupt figurehead bent on increasing his Swiss Bank account by stealing aid funds (just like Arafat) and by opressing his own people.

And how does all of this reflect to 2065/2070?
First and foremost, the Middle East remains militarized. Extremely militarized. An Armed Camp. Shiite extremists (the NIJ/"Arabia") are in a constant Jihad against the Awakened, the Metahumans and Israel (active opression and even extermination of the first two, cold war and occasional terrorist attacks on the latter). The more moderate Suni nations signed, after the 2034-2036 War, a peace treaty with Israel (though that's quite a cold peace) due to economical reasons and the ressurgance of magic which lead to a new golden age (remember that in golden age Spain, Muslims and Jews lived togather in peace; Jews could become ministers and generals in that Islamic kingdom, but the New Golden Age is far less harmonic and far colder in terms of peace, especially due to the previous century of hatered-filled propaganda); Metahumans are still opressed. The West Bank DMZ is more of a larger version of the Barrens than a nation-state; it's ruled by various armed gangs and organizations, some engaged in terrorism against Israel, some just in "normal" criminal activities. The Free City of Gaza, on the other hand, is a Megacorporate enclave, where the cheap labour force (atleast 3 millions of them in 2065) lives in shanti towns in the shadow of the corp enclaves.

And Israel sits in the middle of all of this as the ultimate militarized nation, fallen back to the 1950's in terms of an authoritative government (not a dictatorship but a very militaristic semi-democracy) and of a centralized economy built over the combination of foriegn corps (Yamatetsu and Ares in the most part), local corps (BioGuard and IMI Inc) and governmental-subsidized and semi-controlled companies. Israel has survived due to an ultra-high-quality military (by 2065 it'll be cybered to the teeth and have major mojo and the latest Ares and IMI Inc weapons; it'll be the only over-funded agency of the Israeli government), due to major magical capabilities and due to the fact that it fights with it's back to the sea (a very strong motivator). The gap between haves and have-nots is more extreme than ever, when large parts of the population live in slums and "refugee camps" away from the chemically-contaminated tel Aviv (the Lybian attacks had massive and lasting side effects, see "Target: Wasteland"), while the government officials, high-ranking corporate officers and corpers live in high arcologies and skyscrappers. Beurocracy is quite heavy, too.

And the MRP (Matriarchal Revolutionary Party) is an Awakened, pro-metahuman group fighting for social equality and the overthrow of the corps and the religious extremists (Orthodox hegemony in Israel and Islamic mullahs in Arabia) in the Israel-Lebanon-Syria area; it's semi-legal in Israel and an underground resistance in Arabia. Add to that the Metahuman Liberation Front, funded, trained and equipped by the IDF, which attacks Arabia government and military installations, and you'll get quite a volatile middle east.

Ok, I have only skimmed through this post as I am at work and it is hellish long, but one thing I would like to know...... to talk about Israel is to talk about its neighbors as they are all relevant to the situation in the Middle East. So what will be the state of Palestine in 2070? will it still exist? We are told in the news (UK) that Israel is handing back land to Palestine, will this still be true in 50 years?

Also on the point of Islam and women, like all religions things can be interpreted and taken advantage of, just because of recent events in the Middle east it is not faire to condem all muslims to be killers and women haters! I am not a Muslim but have grown up in the Middle East ( Saudi, Egypt and Oman) and though these countrys are pro western We never experienced any problems (and that was in the 80's). I would like to think that sensible opinions can be expressed about the Middle East as it is difficult to understand now let alone in the future.

I know I have gone off topic abit, but to talk about Israel as a place involves the rest of the Middle East as well!

torz x

*growls*

Yeah, let's stay on topic.

EDITED.

Oh, and Rory, I'd suggest you keep to that too.

Oookay. Lets just remember to keep it game related and on topic eh? 'Cause these kind of debates never turn out well.

Your souce is inaccurate:

Rory, take your zealotry elsewhere, okay? I don't think Dumpshock is the place for anyone spreading ideology, is it?