Alright, quick question, I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one, but never hurts to confirm...

When a hacker is using a program in SR4, and is told to roll Hacking/Computer+Program, you don't get the standard attribute to your pool, right? Normally logic in this case.

So if I had logic 6, hacking 5 and exploit 5 running, and was trying to hack something on the Fly, which is a Hacking+Exploit Test, then I'd be rolling 10 dice, 5 for hacking, 5 for Exploit, and logic wouldn't come into play, right?

Right.
A common house rule is to use Logic as a limit on hits, so as to prevent pocket hackers like Mungo with his found top-end commlink, but the normal rules work exactly as you describe.

Not so much a House rule as an Optional One (out of Unwired, IIRC). There are two of them.

1. Use Attribute as Limit and roll Skill + Program.
2. Use Program as Limit and roll Attribute + Skill

Yup, Tweaking The Rules on page 39 in Unwired.

I favor using the Program as a limit and rolling Attribute + Skill.

Thanks for the corrections

So I guess the question is, when does Logic come into play with Computers and Hacking? If its always Skill+Program and attribute isn't accounted for, is there ever a point when you rolling hacking+logic, or computers+logic?

Or is Logic just sort of a placeholder. "All other skills have a linked attribute, so Hacking does too." And then when someone realized there wasn't a use for the attribute, they added in the special rules from Unwired?

This, probably.
Basically, the program rating replaces the attribute in a standard test. It's a bit clunky and one of the less elegant solutions, since you can just buy a commlink with high ratings, as well as high program ratings and hack away like a pro.

There's 'ware that gives a bonus to logic-linked skills (Encephalon and PuSHeD, both in Augmentation). Off the top of my head, however, I don't think you ever roll hacking+logic.

Hacking is still Logic Linked, so I would allow the 'ware Bonuses in that case. But then, we used the optional rules too, so...

It should be noted that this optional rule makes Technomancers unplayable cripples, so be wary of that.

How so?

Just a guess, but probably because not every TM has a high logic, and if logic is the limit, it can rather easily be raised by norms to 9-11, while the TM would have to sacrifice resonance for it (because logic ends at 6 for them). So the hits would far more limiting the TM compared to the hacker.

SYL

Because Technomancer's core ability is Threading. Threading gives you extra program levels to your known programs. Technomancer mechanics are such that you need to buy programs with BP/Karma, and there's a hard cap (Logic) on the ammount of programs you can have.
Now, if you decide to use the SR5's Roll-and-Keep system, then having a Program Rating over 6 is basically pointless, because getting 6 successess on average requires 18 dice, which is already approaching the top end of hacking ability. But Technomancer's only strength over the hacker is in having Rating 7+ programs! That's your entire schtick! So while the hacker just spends his nuyen on buying R5 programs in chargen, spends his BP on buying good attributes and a varied set of skills, and then spends earned nuyen on upgrading his programs, the technomancer spends all of his BP on having 6 R6 programs, spends his nuyen on buying drones, and then cries in the pillow because he wants rigging augmentations. In the roll-and-keep system the technomancer is behind the hacker in his core area, and is a paralyzed cripple in every other area.

That hard cap of Logic×2 number of complex forms applies only during character creation (SR4a, page 88). Afterwards a technomancer can have any number of complex forms learned by spending karma (SR4a, page 239).

And don't forget teamwork tests.

I don't see how any of this helps the technomancer.

How wouldn't almost every TM have high Logic?
It determines System Rating.
Apart from that, sure, TMs need to exchange some power for those high attributes, but we're talking about high-end ware anyways. At this point, you can trade a point of resonance or two.


As someone else already said, this cap is only present during character creation.


You're exaggerating wildly. For one thing, program ratings not only determine your dice pool. Among other things, e.g., Stealth rating sets the threshold for matrix detection tests when trying to find a TM and for Firewalls to detect a hack. As shown above, most TMs will already have a high Logic, because they're fairly attribute dependant and need it for their System Rating anyways. A limit of 5 or 6 needs a certain number of dice in any case, and can still be ignored by using Edge. In other words, you're blowing an issue out of proportion.
I also disagree with your assumption that high rating programs (or complex forms as they were) is the entire schtick of a TM. Yes, it is true that it's easier to build a competent or very good hacker with comparatively few investments in the karma department and with a lot of money instead. Hackers tend to be better at hacking at character creation than TMs. However, IMO, the "schtick" of a TM is that they aren't limited by money or the hard caps that apply to hacking equipment. Instead, they are the adepts to the hacker's street samurai, where the sky (or rather: karma) is the limit. Oh, and there are of course some other considerations aside from raw numbercrunching.

Furthermore, why wouldn't the TM from your example simply learn his rigging echos?
It seems to me that you may be arguing from SR5 TMs, who are indeed somewhat weaker.

tl;dr: SR4 Technomancers aren't crippled when limiting their hits using Logic. Or you can use the other optional rule.

Yes, but that would stop at 6 usually - and 9 for hackers with Cerebral Booster 3.

SYL

Wrong. SR4, remember? You can't spend Edge on ignoring limits because Limits don't exist for anyone else. You can houserule that of course, but then you add yet another attribute a TM must buy.


Because he is dead weight on the team for the first 50 karma, and then the game ends, because the suggested karma awards is roughly 5 per mission. Dronomancers use threaded Command to be good riggers, and I don't even know how that's supposed to work with the limit rule. Do you roll Logic+Skill? Logic+Drone's Attribute? What?


And a TM absolutely doesn't care. TM's Matrix Monitor is his Stun Monitor which is based on Willpower, not System Rating. System Rating does nothing for the TM.


Your living persona's ratings are capped by your Resonance, as are you programs. Trading a point of resonance is huge for a technomancer.


It doesn't matter if you become an omnipotent cybergod at 1000 karma, because at that point the game has long since ended and everyone went to play Uno. The Technomancer's core competence is Matrix, and that's also their only competence because TMs are very BP-hungry. TM functions in the matrix by having his 6-8 main programs at R6 (you don't buy lower rating because it's ridiculously expensive to raise with karma), and then threading them higher to about 9. The programs you don't have you thread to (average) 4 (Resonance 6 + Software 4 (Threading) 2). What this means is that in you do Exploit and Stealth better than Hacker (you have three more dice to throw) and everything else worse than hacker (who just buys everything at R5 in chargen).
But when you introduce limits, TMs suddenly have a problem. They are now even more BP-hungry, because they are required by law to buy high Logic, which cuts their non-hacking competencies even harsher. They are now less consistent than the Hacker, because their Logic and Hacking are lower (no Encephalon for you!). But they can occasionally spike higher than the Hacker can. Which is not all that good.

I typed a long reply to most of that, and then realized that we'll have to agree to disagree.
Your games are obviously way different than mine. I can see how your TMs are mind-bogglingly crippled.

Just one thing: ignoring limits with Edge is already in SR4, as evidenced by spells. See p. 182, SR4A. If you're unable to make that simple logical leap, it's a pity.

Regarding the Edge/Limit: only the edge dices can be used for hits higher than the spell force, not normal dices, even when boosted by edge.

SYL

Regarding Logic/System and technomancers, they do care. It defines their subscription limit just as it does with any commlink. The difference is that without the Connectivity echo from WAR! a technomancer is truly hard capped at Logic×2 subscriptions while a commlink exceeding System×2 simply counts the extra subscriptions as running programs which can degrade the commlink's performance (Unwired, page 55, Subscriptions).

Which is not that important. At Logic 3 you have 6 slots. You slave three commlinks of your team, and still have two slots to slave your drone or something, while keeping one slot open to do offensive hacking.

Wow - You only use 6 Slots? Crazy...
My Technomancer has a shortage of Slots even at 12-16 ( Logic 6-8 ). And she doesn't even play with [her own] Drones yet...

Don't individually slave all 12 cyberpenises your team has. Just slave them to comlinks and slave the comlinks.

Slaves cannot be masters.

Unwired, page 55, Slaving: "When slaving a node to a master, the slaved node does not accept any Matrix connections from any other node but the master and instantly forwards any connection attempts to the master."

yeah they closed that daisy chain loophole awhile back.

Only 12? If you do a full body you can fit I think it was like 86 just in capacity. Behold Scrotax, the Impregnator!

Maybe it's just me, but I am of the opinion that EVERY character needs some augmentation. My SR4 combat medic mage has about 1.95 Essence points of 'Ware, and using chummer5, I have a character with 1.97 Essence points of 'Ware. He's starting out with Synaptic Booster level 2, which is pretty sweet.

It's Cyberpunk... Of course every character needs a bit of Augmentation. My current Technomancer has almost 2 points worth of Augments, including the ubiquitous Data Jack.

Oh? You are content with having your Living Persona and programs capped at 4?

Simple Answer? YES, Yes Indeed...

As for SR5...
SR5 has no programs for Technomancers. And still, My character's resonance is a 3, which CAN BE RAISED BY SUBMERSIONS... Do not see what the problem is. *shrug*

And yes, I was, even in SR4.
My favorite Magician had some 'ware in him as well (a full point worth in fact)... Initiations are easy.

I mean, TMs shouldn't be hacking anyways. They should be Registering Crack Sprites out of combat and letting those sprites carry them through the game on their strong, broad shoulders.

Only if you swing that way.
I prefer to use them for one-off augments and side issues, personally, and I stick to Sprites of Level 2 or 3.