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apple
And the Rigger book will change the difference between links, consoles and decks, the pricing system and the very average quality in editing/layout and proof reading in SR5?

SYL
Sengir
QUOTE (apple @ Dec 2 2015, 12:36 PM) *
I hate that idea. More powerful, more tricked out, more adaptable, way more expansive yes. Different in rules? No. Even the sam should be able to simply upgrade his ware to to the hackers/riggers standard (think Section 9 of GITS), just as a Rigger or Decker can buy a tricked out Ares Alpha with a billion mods (Streetsam level).

You are confounding two different points here:
1.) Whether samurais should be able to get hacker/rigger gear
2.) Whether commlinks, decks, and VCRs work with the same game mechanics.

Decks could be cheap and accessible as dirt and still play by completely different rules, or the matrix rules could be streamlined to incorporate all possible devices but decks could still be inaccessible for sams.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sengir @ Dec 2 2015, 08:42 AM) *
You are confounding two different points here:
1.) Whether samurais should be able to get hacker/rigger gear
2.) Whether commlinks, decks, and VCRs work with the same game mechanics.

Decks could be cheap and accessible as dirt and still play by completely different rules, or the matrix rules could be streamlined to incorporate all possible devices but decks could still be inaccessible for sams.



Why would Decks ever be inaccessible for Sams? It is GEAR. A Sam's Hacking Skills may never be as good as a Hacker's, but nothing stops a Sam from acquiring a Deck, nor should there be anything stopping them from acquiring one. That would be asinine. It would be like saying that the Decker could never get a Tricked out Ares Alpha.
apple
QUOTE (Sengir @ Dec 2 2015, 11:42 AM) *
Decks could be cheap and accessible as dirt and still play by completely different rules, or the matrix rules could be streamlined to incorporate all possible devices but decks could still be inaccessible for sams.


Or they could be like SR4: one device, affordable (going from 1-10), and (depending on the karma invested) usable by everyone. Just like weapons, armor, medkit or a vehicle.

SYL
Sendaz
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 2 2015, 12:18 PM) *
That would be asinine. It would be like saying that the Decker could never get a Tricked out Ares Alpha.

Note: could should not be mistaken for should as shown by Tony Three Toes, a hotshot decker with aspirations that they were also a gunslinger until they took off the big and second toe on their right foot while trying to train for fast draw. wink.gif

But yes, glitches aside, in a growing wireless world it makes sense that more people will hack or search the matrix to some degree just like most everyone in a party will typically be able to shoot to some degree.

The Sammie/Gunbunny will excel in things shooty just like the Decker will excel in things Matrixy , but everyone should have a basic grasp of both of these.
Even if they could not go toe-to-toe with a professional the Mage with a bit of drain piled up or a Decker can still lob a grenade or throw down suppressive fire in a pinch while a Face or Sammie might be able to spot icons of interest to get a better grasp of what they are dealing with or maybe even close and jam an automated door.
Sengir
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 2 2015, 05:18 PM) *
Why would Decks ever be inaccessible for Sams? It is GEAR.

Currently, it is an absurdly expensive piece of gear, which you can't really afford if you plan on doing anything else wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sengir @ Dec 2 2015, 12:37 PM) *
Currently, it is an absurdly expensive piece of gear, which you can't really afford if you plan on doing anything else wink.gif


But that is its own separate issue, nein? smile.gif
Mantis
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 3 2015, 07:20 AM) *
But that is its own separate issue, nein? smile.gif

Which is exactly what this post was originally about. Why are they so expensive? I think we've established there is no reason beyond a game design choice so now we either need to justify that price point or else change it in our games or lobby Catalyst to change it through errata or some other soon to be released book (ha!).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mantis @ Dec 3 2015, 10:02 AM) *
Which is exactly what this post was originally about. Why are they so expensive? I think we've established there is no reason beyond a game design choice so now we either need to justify that price point or else change it in our games or lobby Catalyst to change it through errata or some other soon to be released book (ha!).


Had a great laugh there Mantis... Thank You. smile.gif
Critias
QUOTE (apple @ Dec 2 2015, 09:22 AM) *
And the Rigger book will change the difference between links, consoles and decks, the pricing system and the very average quality in editing/layout and proof reading in SR5?

SYL

They were making a joke about how the edition changes right after the Rigger book comes out.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Critias @ Dec 3 2015, 05:43 PM) *
They were making a joke about how the edition changes right after the Rigger book comes out.

Indeed, Sorry Apple, I should have maybe made that more clear, but this has been a long running curse that hopefully breaks with R5 as Mr. Hardy did say that the Rigger book was coming out years before 6th.
KnightAries
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Dec 3 2015, 02:12 PM) *
Indeed, Sorry Apple, I should have maybe made that more clear, but this has been a long running curse that hopefully breaks with R5 as Mr. Hardy did say that the Rigger book was coming out years before 6th.

After reading over 5th ed I think they need to come out with 6th already. biggrin.gif
KCKitsune
4th was pretty darn nice, just bring some of the improved rules from 5th into it and you're good to go. The one thing that I DESPISE is the change in the cyberware/bioware Essence cost rule in 5th. Nerfs the Street Sammy pretty badly.
Mantis
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 3 2015, 10:22 AM) *
Had a great laugh there Mantis... Thank You. smile.gif

What? You mean that isn't something that could actually happen? I mean in this universe as opposed to some weird opposite universe where crazy things happen all the time.
Ah well, at least I cheered someone up today. smile.gif
DeathStrobe
I think decks should cost a lot, but I think deckers need to be able to solve more problems with their deck as quickly as other archetypes.

A mage, a street sam, and a decker get into a Mexican standoff. The first pass goes something like this.

The samurai can turn on his wired reflexes and quick draw.

The mage can activate a focus and recklessly cast.

A decker can spend a complex action looking for the other two's wireless devices and drop limp and go hot sim.

The action economy of hacking is broken. The fact you can not meaningfully contribute to combat in a timely manner is a problem. Its also very problematic that the street sam is more vulnerable to hacking while the mage isn't and in a paper, rock, scissors combat, the street sam should be able to counter the mage, and the mage the decker, but in truth the mage can counter both of them just find, because despite the nerfs to magic in SR5 and the tagline "everything has a price" everything is still better with magic.
Sengir
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 3 2015, 04:20 PM) *
But that is its own separate issue, nein? smile.gif

It is exactly the issue we are talking about: If decks are so expensive that buying one leaves no resources to invest into anything not decker related, the corollary is that everybody who invested resources into something not decker related won't be able to afford a deck.
Glyph
If the design goal was to make decking so expensive that you needed to have a character dedicated primarily to decking, they achieved it. A good decker needs a lot of high-rated, specialized skills and expensive gear. Having a cerebral booster and some of the qualities aimed at deckers are also good ideas. The trouble is, that is total crap, fluff-wise. Deckers should be cobbling together their own decks and swapping out code with each other, not buying their illegal and highly specialized gear off the shelf. If you're going to ding deckers cost-wise, ding them on component availability and cost. But deckers need to be able to mess around with tech more, without time constraints that make it too impractical.
apple
For that Decks need more place for rules and values to shine. Not happening. Then again: 1993 Cyberpunk 2020 already achieved that in the basic book ...

SYL
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