So let's assume for a second that we are starting the design of the 6th version of Shadowrun.

We'll start with an analysis of the current edition to see what needs to be addressed.

What do you think needs to be addressed?

A.

Of the top of my head:

3 worlds:
Shadowrun has always had 3 worlds: the physical, the astral & the matrix.

This needs to be streamlined to you have the same rules for all 3.

The rules for the physical can be used to represent the matrix. Your decker/technomancer builds a character with stats and plays him on the Matrix. His Assisting Programs are handled as the rules for drones.

The technomancer does the same, but uses different rules for creating the character. He uses the rules for spirits for his Assisting Programs.

All combat/hacking/stealth uses the same rules as in the same activities in the physical world. The virtual reality handles the confrontation through a simulated virtual reality.

That way the rules system would look like this:
- Physical rules
- Rules for Sprites/Spirits
- Rules for Drones/Programs
- Rules for Technomancers - how to create a virtual Persona
- Rules for Deckers - how to create a virtuel Persona
- Rules for Mages - how to cast spells (using the rules for firearms)

What do you think? Am I mad?

A.

On the Matrix:

I think the Matrix needs to be streamlined, and there need to be some changes. There need to be easy Matrix tasks, so that script kiddies and Matrix gangs can plausibly exist, and non-deckers can have something to do. There should be rules supporting the fluff of deckers cobbling together cyberdecks and coding their own programs, without it becoming a massive time sink - deckers should not be so dependent on a disproportionately expensive (compared to what runners get paid) piece of gear. I think making hacking utilities cheaper and less important was a step in the right direction - now do away with them altogether; just assume that any cyberdeck has them, and use the deck's base ratings.

There should still be a mechanic for possibly triggering an alert, either to the host or to the Grid Overwatch Division, but Overwatch score needs to go. Matrix perception needs to be more like regular perception - a roll to notice a hidden icon or significant detail, not something you roll for EVERYTHING. Simple actions such as hacking someone's smartlink should be easier to do and be similar to other combat actions - a simple opposed test. On the other hand, wireless "bonuses" really need a drastic overhaul. Skinlinks and internal DNI need to be reintroduced, and matrix bonuses should be limited to devices that can be remote-controlled or that can benefit from connecting to a large database. Matrix combat should instead be focused on hacking enemy security systems, tacnets (which need to be much, much, much cheaper, and more ubiquitous), and drones.

On the subject of drones, I think should be moved over to deckers. No more RCC, just decks. Riggers should go from being their own "class" to being a sub-specialty of deckers (for drones) or street samurai (for vehicle riggers - the VCR should go back to being a relatively cheap and Essence-friendly augmentation like it was in SR4).

Technomancers are hard. They do the same things deckers do, but have special abilities, counterbalanced by their "organic" stats being weaker than those of an augmented decker with a tweaked-out deck. Honestly, I would play down the differences rather than play them up, making them more like the difference between shamans and hermetics. Get rid of Resonance, let them take augmentations again. Have a few things they can do better than deckers, and a few things they aren't as good at. Possibly get rid of Fading - make them more like deckers rather than trying to shoehorn in rules similar to the ones for Magic. Make them as similar to deckers as you can, and still keep their unique flavor. That will make balancing them a lot easier.

Reading Glyph's comment made me think, maybe Deckers and TMs should be more similar. But with the difference being, that TMs need to resist fading, while Deckers always get hit with Overwatch Score for hacking actions. This will allow TMs to hack longer but at the risk of knocking themselves out, while Deckers are on a clock and just need to hack quickly and with purpose. I think OS is a fine mechanic, as it is something that existed back in 3rd and optionally in 4th as the security tallie.

Honestly, I'd also like to see fewer attributes and skills. As I feel they're are just too many of them. But they also need to mix up what attributes do, so they don't run in to the problem of SR3'd Quickness being the god stat.

Honestly, the rules could be exactly the same, but if they were more concisely written, with better organization and clear headings, I'd buy in. The existing game just needs a lot of editorial polish.

That said, I would like to see fewer, broader skills and attributes. And a lot fewer qualities, which serve only to complicate the game in diverse ways.

I also think that limits, while well-intentioned, serve as another moving piece to keep in mind while trying to run the game. Especially natural limits, which have relatively complex calculations, making creating an NPC on the fly much more difficult. There does need to be a mechanism whereby gear can impact the success of a test, but perhaps Anarchy has a better idea. A mechanism that lets you reroll failures would probably be more fun.

If I had a motto for a new edition, it would be, "do more with less". Get the rules down to two or three well thought-out books.

First and Foremost ?
The Company that produces it !

HougH!
Medicineman

And Wanda Maximoff said:"No more wireless!"

I think the one this that is needed is to make Street Sams a thing again. In 5th edition they get bent over and used like a cheap prostitute. I mean let's face it, with all the advantages the Awakened get, being a street sam is TOUGH. They not only got rid of the 50% Essence discount for the lesser of Bio/Cyber, they also made augmentation so much more EXPENSIVE! If you want to prevent what happened in 4th edition make it so the Awakened/Emerged do NOT get the above 50% discount.

Simple Solution: ALL magic gets the Sensitive System Flaw that doubles the cost of ALL implants in both Essence and Money.
Done.

I don't think the doubling of the nuyen cost of 'ware is needed, but the "All 'Special Snowflakes' get the sensitive system flaw" is agreeable.

- Reboot of the setting, because 30 years of plots piling up on top of one another makes for a lot of clutter and makes it hard for both writers and new readers. The only positive aspect is that it allows some people to feel smug because they remember some obscure fact from some old book.

- Have three different flavor: technothriller, cyberpunk and post-cyberpunk. Core rules are the same, but each has its own set of optional rules to capture the expected flavor. Each flavor is set in a different part of the timeline and has dedicated writers, who are able to go fully in the direction they like most, without having to bother supporting other playstyles.

- For the fluff/plots, move away from sourcebooks and more to the Internet, where information can be updated, linked and maintained. A subscription model would be used for those who want to keep up with what is happening in the world.

- Rethink the whole system on a game design point of view, instead of working from legacy and "how it used to be done". And to be controversial : if necessary, get rid of the "big box of D6".

What is wrong with it?

My POV is that they are actually keeping Shadowrun alive - which isn't an easier feat these days (being a print media).

A.

Work out what people loved about the game, why it was such a popular and solid seller in the periods it held. What people play most at their tables from any given edition. What people like reading about and the styles they enjoy within the game setting.

Take these aspects. Work out what works with them and why and what parts people are not using. Look at the parts of the game people dont use at their tables as much, find out why. Rework those parts.

For a new edition, when it happens, I'd love to see an open approach like the D&D 5 playtests. But, that might be challenging with the freelancer driven model of Catalyst.

I've often daydreamed about what the perfect product lineup would be. Something like:

• Starter Set (basic rules. basic gear. no bioware. intro to Seattle. Classic metatypes, classic archetypes)
• Advanced Rulebook (Runners Companion, Street Magic, and core rules merged)
• Advanced Gear Book (Augmentation, Arsenal, Rigger, and core gear merged)
• Big Book of Stat Blocks (NPCs, HTR teams for everyone, Critters, etc)
• Seattle 2080
• World Atlas
• Sprawls of the World (Chicago, Denver, Hong Kong, etc)
• Power Players Sourcebook (Governments, Corporations, Unions, Guilds, Syndicates, etc)

And then a metaplot book each year that covers threats, pop culture, state of the art gear, etc.

Part of the problem is the exodus of talent, which left some good writers, but also some other writers/freelancers who lacked a very basic understanding of the rules and the game world.

The biggest problem, though, is a massive editorial failure at the line developer level (not the company level - look at how comparatively well put-together Battletech is; and not from a proofreader level - there have been complaints from editors about fixes they did that did not make it into the finished product). SR5 has some spots where you can glimpse the game it could have been, but there are serious errors, omissions, muddled rules, and contradictions. Layout-wise and art-wise, the books are very pretty, but the content has major problems.

I think wireless is fine by the fact it exists. The issue as I see it is the needless insanity that is the attempt at WiFi synergy for sometimes silly bonuses just so the "special snowflake" hackers/deckers can get their "participation trophy" for being able to limit themselves to hacking someone's gun while the bullets are flying.

dude . . srsly . . have you watched any of the Watchdogs 1 or 2 gameplay?
THAT is what the wifi stupidity is supposed to do.
If it did work, you'd have to get rid of it.
And seeing how it does NOT work either . . get rid of it!

I disagree Stahlseele. We had WiFi tech in 1999. And not just in labs. The tech was out and to say it got stuffed back in the bottle is not very realistic. The only reason that Shadowrun 1st edition didn't have it was because it came out in 1989. Hell, even by 3rd edition (1998), WiFi was not a common household product.

As for Watchdog type of shenanigans... that's because modern US cyber security is like using used toilet paper for armor. The US is so bad at it that we normally get our hoop handed to us by the North Koreans. THEY have a cyber warfare training program, US colleges are worried more about who can use what bathroom.

The most common parallel I can see with SR not keeping up with a technology was like Traveler having computers with only 640K of RAM. Laughable by any standard.

AV bullets halving armor would probably have been enough I guess

WiFi is fine. Implementation of WiFi not so much. There was the whole Ghost in the Shell debate when SR5 launched and yeah, I think that it did try and go too far in that particular direction. Accessing the Matrix via WiFi is a perfectly acceptable concept and there are ways of blending ideas and systems to make it work. But that doesn't mean it needs to run off a Universal System Design, it can be an elegant system, but when you tie everything to the complete same mechanic you lose flexibility of narrative/setting having a mechanical representation and this leads to a lot of the 'handwaving' rules that breaks the internal logic or mythos of the setting itself.

I would say get better editors first, it is like reading stereo instructions half the time.

Simplify some things, we don't need Shadowrun Anarchy levels of rule reduction, but they could make things work so much simpler.

Examples:
Burst fire: -2 Defensive dice to the target and you expend 3-5 rounds depending on the weapon. Full Automatic -5 Defensive Dice and uses 10-20 rounds depending on the weapon.

Yes I am talking about dumping the whole Recoil System. It is to easy to abuse and if you got the cash you can make most weapon's recoil nonexistent anyways though mods and high Strength.

Some not-so-random thoughts...

- Get rid of the distinction between Simple and Complex actions. One Free Action and one "Normal Action" per Initiative Pass. No more double tap. You may have to alter melee and ranged weapon damages, full auto modifiers and/or spells to balance the result, but previous editions did alter those in numerous occasions, so I guess it can be done again.

- Get rid of Limits. If there's really a need for a minor bonus to fill gear lists, I'd go with a recoil compensation-like modifier (cancels out negative modifiers but does not allow to go above the normal dice pool).

- Merge Body and Strength. If you really wants to play something as specific as a sturdy weakling, there are Positive Qualities for that.

- Modify attributes in some way so that you no longer have the utter nonsense that knowledge skills linked to Intuition are. Possibly merge Intuition and Willpower with a new name.

- Add some random factor to Spell Drain so that mages fear it again. Add some fixed value to Spirit Drain so that summoning big spirits becomes dangerous. My personal idea is to unify the spell and spirit drain formulas into F/2 + modifier + resistance roll hits (and yes, I would consider the opportunity to get down a mage by having Counterspell and using Edge on resisting his spell as a feature, not a bug).

- Get rid of shotguns cone of dispersion. Yes, that's an actual thing that exists, but nowhere near even the narrower dispersion SR rules apply.

- Introduce a Software test that allow characters to make a competitive use of skillsofts, giving the hacker and technomancer archetypes a themed, new ability to use in combat.

- Reduce augmentations cost to mass-market level price. Introduce a karma cost for lowering Essence. Probably the most controversial move, but I really think it is the only way to get out of the "money vs. karma" debate (if the rigger gear issue is also addressed, it may even be possible to reach a point where you could offer a quick chargen system that handwaves the nuyen aspect).

- Get rid of the "divide remaining nuyens by ten" rules. Just allow people to skim through the gear list when creating their character and go back to it later if they forgot something or learnt about it from another player.

- Allow characters to spend karma to "find long-lost friend" or "move into a new environment" and get new contacts after chargen.

- Write rules for virtual reality and computer operations. Write fluff and tactics for the Matrix. Separately. If we can have combat rules that don't account for corporate offices architecture and furnitures choice, or social rules that don't describe corporate hierarchy and command structure, I guess that can be done.

ADEPTS:

Adepts are basically magical street samurai, although better as specialists than as the all-around asskickers that street samurai are supposed to be. They tried to differentiate them from their mundane brethren by making some things cheaper for them, and other things more expensive for them. There were just two things that made them potentially unbalanced from SR4 onward.

The first was that they could selectively get bioware to boost areas that were expensive to improve with power points, such as initiative and Attributes. The second was that all too often, augmentations and adept powers stacked. So adepts could get critical strike on top of bone density augmentation, or tailored pheromones on top of cool resolve. Now, in both editions this does have some opportunity costs, but usually what you can get makes it more than worth it.

The only solution that I can see is simple and brutal: make a version of the Sensitive System quality the default for all awakened characters. Bioware doesn't work for them, and cyberware has a doubled Essence cost. Maybe this could be balanced by reducing some adept power costs to their SR4 levels (Improved Attribute costs 0.75 per level, etc.).

That would help to reign in one of the most egregiously unbalanced of adepts, the infamous pornomancer. But the rest of the problem is that they simply made too many stacking magical bonuses for social skills. Mentor spirit bonuses, improved ability, authoritative tone, cool resolve, the presence metamagic, etc. Ironically, SR5 had them comparatively reined in, until Street Grimoire came in and slathered on all of these additional bonuses like a hot dog vendor going crazy with the condiments.

I am very ambivalent about even putting the idea out there , because I really like playing augmented adepts, but sometimes the only way to balance something is to just take the option off the table.

I guess it depends. I have the impression that adepts were originally intended to be more specialized than street samurai - Zen marksmen, kung fu masters, supernaturally mesmerizing performers, etc. If you want to keep augmented adepts as a viable but not overpowering option, then they are fine as is - it is augmented characters who need to be beefed up. In SR4, augmented characters lagged behind adepts on the power curve, until Augmentation and Runner's Companion came out. If you gave your street samurai born rich, genetic heritage, and restricted gear (x3), then got some choice 'ware, you had a badass who could hang with the augmented adepts. So the choice is, either keep them equally weak, or equally AWESOME.

I have to admit, I have never liked adept ways. Both for the constraining factor, and all of the fiddly math and bookkeeping over those percentage discounts. If I had to have adept ways in the game, I would make them more like mentor spirits (to the point where I would say you can only have one or the other). A bonus to something, a free power or two, and some kind of restriction.

I like qi foci, and would keep them.

Background count is a problematic area for me. First of all, to me, background count should be special. I like the general idea, but it should only be there for things like a lab where they are performing horrific experiments, a wendigo's lair, etc. You shouldn't have background count just because there was a drive-by, or a concert.

But the problem that adepts have with background count is that so very many of an adept's powers are basically small dice pool bonuses, so background count can effectively turn them into an instant mundane. I am not sure how to fix it. I would go so far as to suggest going back some editions to where background count didn't affect adept powers at all. Otherwise, I would say keep the range of background count lower and have it be a more meaningful thing to encounter. But I would apply penalties the same as for spirits, as a flat dice pool penalty.

Mystic adepts, I would treat like SR5 does, mostly - they seem OP as hell at first glance, but that's because they are front-loaded builds. After the start of play, they advance slower than regular adepts (not gaining power points from increasing Magic, but only by taking the power point metamagic at initiation).

I also think the magical types should be able to blend more as they advance. Maybe an adept could learn how to craft wards or summon beast spirits, or a mage could gain mystic armor, or a mystic adept could learn astral perception. Obviously, it shouldn't be easy. Alternately, you could let players buy piecemeal from a range of mage and adept options, custom-crafting their magic rather than being stuck with just four comparatively inflexible "classes".

I disagree with you about having bioware not working on an Awakened characters. It makes no sense that bioware doesn't work, but cyberware does. Also you're already balancing out the advantage of getting 'ware by having "Sensitive System".

What I see is the unlimited advancement of Awakened. Every other character type can only go so far and then they're stopped. I would have it that Awakened/Emerged characters can only initiate a number of times equal to their Essence. If you get no 'ware you can get up to Magic/Resonance 12.



I see Mystic Adepts as being too overpowered. I would get rid of them and have it that a Full Mage can gain Adept abilities, but they have to take it as metamagic. If the Adept wants to learn how to cast spells, then he can spend the normal karma penalty to transition from an Adept to a Full Mage.

What does this accomplish?


What does this accomplish?


What in all of the nine billion names of God are you talking about, here? Street sams have problems, but "too much karma" ain't one of them. O.o

This will be a hard sell, but I think it's a very good idea. The distinction isn't important enough to justify the added complexity.

As a GM, I really tire of trying to remember what kind of action something is. And most of my players forget that they can do two simple actions anyway. Also, with SR5, they already imposed a rule that you can only take one "attack" action per initiative pass, regardless of its action type. This would clean up that nonsense as well.

While we're at it, Combat Turn should be renamed to Combat Round. Since, in every game from D&D to Chess, a turn is when a individual player acts.

The problem I;m having with a number of the suggestions is that they are drifting into the structures already used in other games. Some of it is close to the Cyberpunk2020 rules frame, other bits are close to the D&D5E (and it's new slew of system borrowing supplement OGL style games) other bits are hovering around the WoD and CoD mechanics. These all already exist, many with Cyberpunk and Magical and crossing the two elements.

Again I see much discussion of Game Rules and no real thought into how they translate the Setting into the Game. The first 3 Editions were so successful because they had different mechanical styles to their competitor systems (which were equally popular on the market). They also built off of each other. A much loved SR4 book when it came out, at least from what I saw at the time, was the 2050 book and there are reasons for that.

Some systems being "complex" (that is to say they have multiple moving parts) isn't automatically a bad thing. That can add something to a game, it can give players and DMs things to play with outside of the immediate game session, it can spark community involvement. It can make things interesting. It can express concepts within the game that simpler mechanics and systems just miss.

What you want is a rule set that maintains a Logic to the game. D&D 5E is very good because it has blended what people loved about D&D that mad it so big in the first place with elements from the editions that also facilitated not just game play but also the events and actions of characters in the D&D novels and stories. Perfectly? No. But you can very easily aspire to do what the setting says heroes can do. The mechanics allow for this. Legend of the Five Rings, another game that has a series of highs and lows across its editions in various directions, but has consistently allowed the characters to played in the form that the stories of events play out (mostly because things have derived not just from writers but also from living game events etc). No where does a game mechanic outright contradict setting lore. One of these games is fairly 'rules light' and simple, the other has a deep set of mechanics and interaction complexities. Both do what they set out to do very well.

GURPS changes chunks of its Universal rules to accommodate the many games that can be played with it. It does this deliberately so (the clue is in the name). Savage Worlds likewise does this, but both to butt up against limitations. World of Darkness builds very well off a core mechanic but twists it through a whole bunch of loops for each of it's game lines (even ChOD does this).

Shadowrun should be looked at element by element and it should be decided what are the game mechanics supposed to be representing and translating. Do you want Mirrorshades? Pink Mohawk? GiTS? The ability to do any and all of these? What are the inspiration sources still? What does the setting fiction depict? How does the game reflect that?

These are the questions that need answering.

A flame flickers and drifts over the coals. The slight breeze makes the coals wink and flicker like the evening stars coming into view above. The big, cast-iron pot stands above them on its legs, bubbling with the aromatic promise of venison, onion, potato, tomato and chili.

Koekepan pauses his stitching on a split seam in his saddle, puts it aside and stands up. Behind him, one of the horses softly nickers while he pushes one of the mesquite branches deeper into the makeshift firepit with the toe of his riding boot. Fresh flames rise from the unburned wood, and he settles back down on his log. He picks up his leatherwork, and says: "Well boy, you don't ask no little questions."

"You see, it needs two things: the righteousness, the attitude that draws 'em in. And it needs the wisdom, the system that will work.

"These two things ain't the same, and they hold different kinds of mojo. The attitude must succeed, and the system must not fail. Win with one, and avert defeat with the other. You can't win with a system if your attitude is bad. You can't avert defeat with an attitude if your system fails. You have to consider both these things, like the hair side and the flesh side of a good hide."

Koekepan pauses to spit into the fire. A puff of steam and smoke rises and before it vanishes, he gestures with the long leather needle as if it were a conductor's baton, or a wand. The smoke grows and rises, lit from beneath by the orange yellow glow of the coals. Visions start to form, shapes in the smoke that now hangs, glowing like an unhinged part of the Matrix, naked in the night air. In the distance a coyote yips, and a hoof stamps in the darkness.

The vision slowly resolves. Judging by the hair, the clothing and the environment, it's maybe 2050, Seattle. A troll stands on an eighteen wheeler rolling down I-5 with a Panther in hand, firing at Lone Star Yellowjackets flying overhead. His chromatic mohawk flaps this way and that in the wind, and he makes a big V with his gnarled fingers at a surveillance camera as they drive past.

"In the old days, things were anarchy. Well, not quite, but after so many gutpunches the authority just was not equipped to stop the brave, the crazy, and the crazy brave from doin' much of anythin'. The answer to every problem was more guts, more guns and more glory."

The vision changes. An ork with an Uzi bursts into a room to find a troll, unleashes wild fire at the troll and ducks back out of the door, chuckling. The troll's fist comes through the door and breaks the ork's neck like a chicken bone. Koekepan looks up at the vision, chuckles and says: "Shouldn'a riled 'im."

"The system was shaky at first, but it managed to clean itself up by, oh, say 2053 or so. It got better, and the attitude was strong as a dead skunk in the sun. But things change. The braver and crazier met their brave and crazy ends, and the ones still standing learned a new set of rules by 2060. Not that different, but not quite the same."

The vision shifts, and a man in handsome, well-tailored clothing who looks strangely like Koekepan's much younger brother sits at a table in an elegant restaurant, talking politely with an elf. Behind the elf stand a couple of bodyguards. It appears to be a formal, cordial business negotiation managed by serious professionals.

"Some reckon the attitude dulled a bit. Maybe. But it also got smarter. The burnouts and the anarchists still had their place, but it was in the cracks between rebuilt monuments to stability. Reckon some runners became an unofficial part of society, instead of ankle-biters chewing on it from the outside. Good change? Bad change? I dunno. Reckon it was good, cause it opened things up for smarts more, but it is what it is. Or was."

The vision shifts again, and now a fog lies over the whole vision - but a sparkling fog, full of tiny electric sparkles. The style is more utilitarian, more business-like, and more slick at the same time. It's 2070.

Off in the distance, coyotes join with each other in a discordant chorus. Howls and whines like manic laughter float through the night air. The horses shift restlessly.

"Oh, boy. Ten short years. Ten short years changed everything. Everything wireless, total surveillance, even walking down the wrong street could finish your career. Spending more time on misdirection, disguises and fake identities than on doing the job. So many just gave up on the cities, and stuck to the Barrens, the country or just anywhere that was not under the all-seeing eye. Everything you took on a run? Use once only because you never know what sniffers got sprayed on it. Drones got so valuable for the ability to ditch them. Magic's biggest selling point became the ability to wipe signatures and get away. Running got out of fashion as so many kids got fingered before they could build skills.

"The attitude changed to one of paranoia - or simply ignoring the environment. Good for some, but a turn-off for most, most likely. The system was stronger than ever before, clean and slick, but that just means failure was averted while victory became harder to grasp."

Koekepan pulls a knife from a sheath on his belt, and carefully cuts the end of the thread close to where he knotted it into the leather. He opens one of the saddlebags resting against the log near him, and puts his mending kit away. When the needle tucks into its pouch, the image starts to dull and fade, dwindling to a cloud of sparks.

"Most recently, it's been a mess. Wireless makes everything work better, until it don't, and when it don't it's most likely enemy action. Every device is an invitation, and it don't matter how good you are because you can get swamped by a cloud of mooks electronically. Magicians mostly do one thing well, three things badly, and nothing much else. Decks are back, for no good reason I can see. One mystery after another.

"And there you have the problem. The system turned into a prison instead of a vehicle, and the rat-on-a-stick got replaced with soy nuggets. Harder to avert failure, and harder to reach for success."

He leans forward again, and takes a wooden spoon from a stone near the fire, then puts the spoon's handle through the handle of the pot's lid to lift it away and put it down. Inside the venison stew simmers, releasing a great cloud of toothsome vapours that blow away the last of the floating visions. Then he takes the spoon and stirs the pot. Off in the distance, the coyote calls break down into a series of high-pitched yips, then silence.

"So what does the future hold? What will you make it? I can't say, but I can tell you where I'd begin.

"In the beginning, for all the system's flaws, those flaws supported the attitude. The attitude guided the system and the system supported the attitude like a horse and rider. This should be your foundation, and how you measure your success. Stop and look around, once every coupla weeks, and ask yourself if the system and attitude work together. If not, make a change until they do. Design is cheap, and detail is expensive. Design it right first.

"Most important in a system is that the environment makes sense. Why put a wireless widget in every gadget if all that means is that some kid halfway across the globe will wreck it, because he can? Makes no sense. Why do barrens still exist when the technology exists to track and capture every single last person in them from a mile away, then bulldoze the wreckage remaining? What's the resistance? Why are magicians so powerful they can snap their fingers and turn away bullets, but can't tie their own shoes with magic unless they first dedicate their lives to the mission? Why are deckers - I mean hackers - er, I mean deckers doing anti-materiel work instead of marshalling the team's intelligence from behind a barrier? Everyone has a mission, let them do that mission. And if the mission is changing, then that's fine, but there needs to be a reason that makes sense."

Koekepan takes the spoon out of the pot, taps it a few times on the rim, then replaces the lid. He turns and rummages in the main pack, and produces a couple of large beer bottles, handing one over before opening one himself with a quick motion of the lid against a convenient stone. Then he takes his thirty-thirty from its scabbard, thumbs back the hammer and stares out into the darkness, listening with the stock resting against one thigh.

"Reckon y'need someone with some college schoolin' to help with the sociology and economics of it all."

Off in the distance a howl starts. It starts high, then slowly falls. The horses snort and stir.

What he said and how he said it.

Looking at 5th, my biggest wish would be to not listen to the first guy who has an axe to grind with some part of the system/setting. Caring strongly about an issue certainly isn't bad in itself, but it carries the risk of slightly overdoing things (see TMs).


One of my personal axes: First build a matrix which everyday people use. Then add hackers.

Such simplification would make the game more accessible to new players and gamemasters. It would fasten some combat and Matrix by removing the need to check for action type when it is not known (especially when a player is searching for a second Simple action to undertake). It would contribute to clarify when movement takes place. It would remove the need for the "one attack per action phase" rule of SR5 that was not precise enough regarding what count as an attack or not. It would still prevent the lengthy "six-rolls double tap" Action Phase from earlier editions said rules was also intended to remove.

On the other hand, I don't know what keeping it would accomplish besides sparing old players from learning a new core rule.

It would simplify chargen and cyberlimbs. It would stop ork and trolls metatypes from being charged for a stat, Strength, that only a very small number of characters benefit from, and is still mostly inferior to the same investment in Agility (which only increase average damage by 1 every 3 attributes, but also increase chances to hit with both melee and ranged attacks). It would lessen the cost of melee combat build, which as far as I can tell has not been the most overpowered type of characters around lately.

Keeping it would... allow people to play characters that are good at resisting damage or dealing melee damage without being forced into being good in the other?

Considering every archetype has a need for at least 6 to 8 different skills, 1 to 4 attributes, and can always get use of higher Edge, Body, Willpower, Dodge, Perception... there is not such thing as an archetype that has "too much karma." Which is something I never said.

The problem I refer to is that street samurais have a significant margin of progression with nuyen alone, that other archetypes don't have (except possibly for rigger. This requires the gamemaster to pay a close attention to how much money he pays the runners, or simply any valuable item they may get close enough to steal, to avoid creating a power discrepancy between the teammates as a result one way or another. By removing the street samurai dependency on nuyen, the GM could pay the team as little or as much as it fits for the campaign tone.

I think I am going to focus on those intangible things that would make the game start up go faster. There are some people out that need a little more than here is the Rule, make it work. Some of us need a little more than that.

Give better examples, like in the example on Page 224 of the SR5 Core Book about running the Matrix. It was a great example of how do a run, but not one Mechanical piece of advice or Rule example.

Little things like that would have saved us lots of time and rather have to figure it out and spent time discussing it we could have all just got to the game quickly.

Example: "Seeing an album he likes (and having little respect for the law), he sleazes a mark onto her commlink, and a little bee sting that only he can see appears on its icon."

A little bit of "Seeing an album he likes (and having little respect for the law), he sleazes (using his Sleaze + Computer) a mark onto her commlink, and a little bee sting that only he can see appears on its icon."
Would have made a lot of difference.

You realize we are trying to TONE DOWN the Awakened Supremacy that has been built into SR over the last editions and MAKE STREET SAM GREAT AGAIN yes?
And here you go and . . make them basically unplayable . .
Everything has a price. The IDEA is not bad. But why does a Sammy have to pay a Dollar while an awakened only has to pay 75 cents for the same effects? THE WAGE GAP NEEDS TO GO!

Thanks! I did notice that it's pretty close to what you said, about binding the milieu and the system together.

Internal consistency is very important, in my view, because that's how you know what game you're playing. In terms of specific mechanics, my key suggestions for changing it away from MagicRun look like this:

- slow magicians down. Don't let them fire off spells like shotgun shells. Let combat be mostly the domain of the sammies, riggers and dedicated adepts. Make magicians weigh the wisdom of carrying a nice, fat Ares Predator.
- compensate magicians for the change. Let them be more flexible with spell choices and creation, let them be the gods of the lodge. Don't try to emulate vancian magic - it sucks in DnD as well.
- let riggers be more flexible. Sure, you can buy off-the-shelf drones and vehicles, but riggers should be able to rig up surprises. Maybe the side panels have hydraulics, which lets them expose those rocket launchers ...
- be more forgiving on sammies. They can be combat monsters, but the sheer cost in essence of top-flight stuff means that they're one bad medical experience away from death. How about allowing for cyberzombie rules, so that the sammie is still in the game, but with some penalties? Maybe rejig the essence rules substantially, since I'm proposing rejigging magic anyway?
- differentiate wired and wireless comms. There are simple, physical reasons why wired can be better under many conditions. Make it matter where the decker/hacker is.

Think about it this way: Now the decker has a real reason to ask some muscle to help her into the inner sanctum for just a few moments. Or to ask a rigger to use an infiltration drone to install a tap. Now the magicians can solve incredible problems, but need time. Time and space. Who better to make time and space than some rugged monsters with an ample supply of ammunition?

Firstly, what Koekepan said.

The primary goal of the game needs to be rethought from the basic principal of 'This is what we want gameplay to look like, now work backwards to define the world it can happen in.'

The biggest thing that needs to change for me is that the Wireless Matrix needs to be pared way back.

As it stands, by SR5 RAW, shadowrunning is no longer plausible. The surveillance state is too advanced for the anonymity that is a shadowrunner's stock in trade to be plausible anymore. Not to mention that the wireless hacking rules describe a situation that any 2017 computer tech will tell you is untenable, much less anyone fit to lick a decker's boots.

We have already seen, this year, the damage the Internet of Things can do when turned into a botnet. Extrapolate this further to devices with the computing power of most of SR's day to day tech and it becomes a full-on nightmare to manage even the most basic of security.

So, here's how I would replace it :

1. Wireless communication still exists.

It always has, as far back as SR2, in the form of comlinks and pocket secs. I don't even mind basic Matrix access.

2. The ASIST-level Wireless Matrix does not.

Simply flatly declare that it takes too much bandwidth to do full-immersion ASIST wirelessly. Do the same with constant live video feeds from every device under the sun. Data Balkanization and conflicts between megacorporate systems, the government, and private citizens need to be rampant to leave gaps in the security panopticon that runners can work in. Not to mention preventing the no-brainer question of why one of the Big 8 doesn't have the equivalent of a complex of outsourced Indian customer service reps to simply dogpile any icon they come across. Deckers need to find an access point. Technos can -make- an access point, when within signal range (relevant stat in meters) of a device with a hard connection to the desired network, in exchange for their vulnerabilities.

3. Decking, like astral projection, is rare and special set of skills.

What Deckers and Technomancers do needs to stay their province, in the hands of well-paid professionals and crazy technophiles willing to put their brains on the line against code. Skript kiddiez and the like can perfectly well exist and cause havoc, but generally from a 'doing vandalism and petty crime on a cheap cyberterminal' level, as equivalent to a real Decker/Techno as a punk with a pistol is to a street sam. Your average 'runner should never have to fear their gear being hacked because 95% of it has no reason to be online in the first place, and the other 5% requires the sort of hardware and talent that should be pulling in the big bucks and doing more important work.

4. Wireless Bonuses

Ditch 'em. They don't do anything really useful rules-wise anyway. We have enough gear to obsess over without adding more situational lines for the sake of it.


Beyond that, the biggest thing I want to change is as much player perception as RAW. The game should support, and expect, rounded characters over single-lane ultraspecialization. No more of this 'starting characters without a 19 dice pool in their primary abilities might as well not show up' bullshit, and the rules that support it.

Yes. It's a bold editorial and game design step, and it may alienate people, but at this point I think that a reboot is merited. Sad, but merited.



Let's mull that one over a bit.

Shadowrunners as unidentifiable shadows? Tricky. When you can have an expert system doing absolutely nothing but poring over surveillance material to identify people, track them and build profiles, effectively impossible.

Given that Facebook and Google are doing this stuff already in 2017, and cities are doing it with CCTV systems, it's hard to imagine why it would not happen in the cyberfuture.

The question then becomes, what would render it irrelevant, or if it could not be rendered irrelevant, how might it be ignored?

Any such system depends on data gathering, data delivery, data storage and data analysis. It has to be timely, adequately detailed, and result in useful information.

How might this be disrupted?

Data gathering is very hard to disrupt with confidence. Did you get all the cameras? Including the pinhole cameras? The sniffers? The scales? The microphones? The scanners? Sure, casual vandalism is one thing, but when you can have a series of hidden pinhole cameras hidden behind the ornamental mouldings of a stationary flowerpot, it becomes infeasible to be sure.

Data delivery is a little easier. You can jam wireless delivery (at the cost of jamming your own), and if you know where to find wires, you can cut them (or tap them). Still, if you miss a camera built into a wall, where the cable is inside the conduits inside the wall itself, then disruption failed, at least to that extent.

Data storage is both harder and easier. Easier, because the kind of data storage we're talking about is at least petabytes, if not exabytes. This stuff is not small, is not cheap, and is not readily mobile, partly because it's not just a matter of a stack of microSD cards but also the hardware to get data into them, out of them, at a reasonable rate of speed, and manage redundancy and analytics and all the rest of it. If the runners can get to it, they can identify it, trash it or subvert it to their own purposes. If they can get to it.

Data analytics can be disrupted as well. The kind of analytical power we're talking about is not unthinkably vast, but isn't pocket secretary stuff either. This means that you have an attack surface both physically (as in, the physical hardware running the analytics) and in matrix terms (assuming it's matrix linked, which it probably is).

Of these, data analytics is the likeliest target. So why would it be disrupted to the point of uselessness? Either a deliberate, timely attack, or a series of constant attacks from the outraged or malicious. Is there a huge population of neo-anarchists who want to do nothing more than disrupt corporate surveillance? Why? How is that their top priority? This is a question that needs a serious, in-depth answer if this is a key element of the environment.

Alternatively, to call back to Neuromancer, we could have people whose plan is to disrupt actual movements of people and thereby introduce massive confusion such that analytics tell the security forces nothing useful.

The opposite side of the coin is that the runners don't care. Go ahead, observe all you want, they're still getting in, taking stuff, getting out, and going to where the long arm of your corp can't reach. Every run then turns into an exercise in speed, and security measures turn into delaying tactics such as to make time for overwhelming forces to respond.

I think that there is room for both. Here's why:

A standard part of the legwork of every run should be security review. The decker becomes a key player (even more than ever before) in disruption and confusion. This makes deckers vital. Your decker creates the space in which you can operate, and without which you're a sitting duck.

Alternatively, if you have havens (or, since that is an overloaded word in the ShadowRun world, perhaps redoubts) to which runners can return, the fact that you identified them during the run doesn't help you do much except lament your bad luck. But then redoubts need to be carefully justified in your milieu.

That's also why I stress data Balkanization. The panopticon doesn't matter as much when the corps don't share data with each other or sometimes between sites/divisions/management chains within the corp, the city's too strapped for cash, and the feds tell both to fuck off so none of the above can put together a coherent profile on a runner unless they make a habit of hitting the same mega in the same area. Or pisses off someone with enough power to get legwork done on them.

Combine that with paying your friendly local Decker to get in there and muddy the waters any time the heat starts to feel too heavy, and I think we have a workable status quo.

Shadowrun 2035 - The Technothriller: The world is balkanized. States are losing power, corporations are getting more and more rights, and it's easy to fall between the cracks. The UCAS will only start having SINs in 2036, and it will take some times before other actors start cooperating on these matters.

Shadowrun 2050 - Goold Old Cyberpunk: Runners live in the cracks of societies, these places where the long arm of the law has no reach. Once you're out of the nice neighborhoods, once the prototype is in the hands of a competitor, nobody cares about what you've done. They've got other stuff to take care of, like gangers shooting people for fun or just making more money.

Shadowrun 2070 - Postcyberpunk: If you want to escape the all-seeing eye, you can go to these weird fringe communities that are completely cut off the rest of the world. Most Shadowrunners don't, they just hide in plain sight. It's just a matter of keeping a low-profile. As long as your fake SIN doesn't trigger anything in the automatic checks, you'll be fine and can even live a normal life. Just don't forget to follow the right procedure when on a job, that's why you're a professional.

I like the concept of and think the redoubt idea is one that's been in the game since the start. Places like the Barrens, the whole SINless thing being a bane to the common joe but boon to the Runner. The fact that information in the age of Megacorp territory zones isn't shared (just look at the old security ideas, that if you can get from the MCT building into the Aztech owned parking lot MCT can legally do nothing to you there because Aztech could shred them in the CC if those MCT logo'd security guards come over the border).

One of the things that seems to have diluted is how savagely vicious and self centred and massively proud the Megas are. They don't play nice with one another (even internally). They want to keep their stuff and also steal the other corps stuff to make more nuyen while kicking the others back down the ladder a couple of index points. Plus they are massive, entire divisions, subdivisions, darpartment, brands and even office buildings won't necessarily shared data either. There's plenty for a decker running matrix overwatch to frag with there.

Take those two things together and you have an environment that is dystopian, dangerous and where runners can thrive if they're any good or crash and burn if they frag up. It leans more towards Trenchcoat than Mohawk but doesn't exclude or be exclusively either option.

The Matrix should be massively pervasive. Regular rules for using the matrix if you're not a Decker is a really good idea and making it useful so that anyone can do some data mining online, perhaps even some rudimentary hacking in there (like RentOSecForce Blue Host that's running the CCTV cameras for the C zoned Kwik-E-Snax parking lot, that's only running some Trace type IC and maybe something that'll crash the Cyberterminal/Commlink). Then there should be Deckers who've invested in better skills and better toys and slice systems. Technomancers /Otaku I think should be approaching the Matrix rules (and their own theme) at that point from a different angle, like how Cyberware totally shouldn't be Wireless and Online and Deckers don't spend their time hacking it, but what if a TM could? (not totally sold on this, just voicing the idea). Or Technomancers operate on the Matrix in their TM capacity exclusively through ComplexForms and Sprite interactions.

Oh and variable Target Numbers too. You can do more with smaller dice pools, difficulties become more or less achievable as they shift and you can still mod dice pools too. Eg TN mods cap out at 6 but for every 2pts of TN (or part there of) mod over 6 you lose a dice from DP. So shooting someone at x range may be TN4 the mods are: fast target +2tn, visibility mods +1tn, uncomped recoil +3tn, attacker moving +1tn, smart link -2tn. Final mod being +5 so the TN becomes 6 and the shooter would lose 2 dice from his or her dice pool.

Yeah, 4e and definitely 5e have stepped away from the megacorps as the primary antagonists with all the pervasive world-scale magical/technological threat plots.


Cyberware hacking in general just needs to go away. It isn't fun at the table, both from a mechanical complexity standpoint and an 'arbitrarily taking away the sammy and riggers's toys via a remote hacker but being unable to do similar to the physad or mage' standpoint.

Imposing a karma cost for lowering Essence doesn't actually do anything to alleviate the samurai's cash dependency.

Side note: "fasten" doesn't mean "make faster." The word you're looking for is "accelerate."

the publisher
writer hiring practice
editorial

the rest will come natural

Let us consider balkanisation on two different levels:

First is the level of information sharing.

Second is the level of physical controls.

We can justify information balkanisation on two fronts. The first (and the weaker of the two) is institutional mistrust. They might share information, but not the most important, timely or valuable information. The second front is that under the rules as presently written, there is no effective information security. If it's on the Matrix, there are quite simply no forms of encryption that cannot be cracked, no forms of security that cannot be circumvented. If it's on a networked computer, the only question is how long it will take before someone bothers to unearth, copy and crack it. Consequently, organisations will simply keep things off computer if they can, and on isolated computers if they can't avoid computers (such as most electronic surveillance).

So much for the paperless society.

It's worth pointing out that when air gaps and faraday cages become a major corporate strategy (I've seen some move to this already in real life), a lot of information sharing becomes infeasible (in real time, anyway), and getting your decker to the right place starts to really matter.

If information sharing happens by literal courier, then this introduces (or at least motivates) a whole other class of run.

Physical security separation will be very contextual, as it is today. If the idea is that once runners leave the premises, they're probably gone? Corporations will definitely work on lobster pot strategies. Relatively easy in, but hell to leave. Sure, you may have had to dodge a few drones and cyberhounds to get in, but once you were identified by the systems as an internal anomaly, security (loudly or quietly) turns into a spider's web, while the heavy response team scrambles. Bear in mind that this makes a hell of a lot of sense for places that have to appear to be open, like a shopping destination or a showroom. They really can't stay in business and not let you in, but they sure as hell can suddenly develop construction barriers "for your security and convenience".

The net effect is that physical balkanisation is unlikely to be as big a deal, imaginary lines in the sand forming corporate borders notwithstanding. The best hope on that front is that redoubts really do exist, and are aggressively defended against corporate incursions - and this definitely does require in-game explanation.

I wouldn't go that far. I would say that Commlinks can do full Matrix actions, but are crippled in the following ways:

1) Can't get higher than 2d6 initiative. A full on Deck can get 4d6 or even allow 5d6 for those who have the ultra bleeding edge tech, but only if they've got a hardwire connection. Otherwise only 2d6 max.

2) No Matrix programs higher than 3 (and no Ergonomic program option)... with exception for certain programs (ex: Stealth) allowed because of expensive hardware modifications (which would also give that program Ergonomic because it's running on its own chip). Limit this to one or two programs per commlink... and no clusters of commlinks (that would be a Deck ). Decks would also be crippled in this way as it doesn't have the bandwidth to use full rating with the exception of Biofeedback Filter and Armor. These programs run wholly on the Deck and represents hardware/software tricks to protect the Decker & Deck.

3) Can only run 1 "Assistant". This class of program can do things like get you a taxi, automatically pay your rent, file your taxes... in other words MUNDANE non-combat crap. If you want IC for your Commlink, prepare to shell out some cash (exact cost would have to be hashed out), and that would run on it's own chip.

4) Agents can only run on a Deck, and only 1 per Deck.

This allows Hackers who are REALLY skilled to do things with a commlink that others would be "OMGWTFBBQ" as they have a mental BSOD. It also allows for Script Kiddies and the "I'm so leet!!!!111" wannabes, while real Deckers like FastJack and Slamm-O are just pointing and laughing.

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The tricky part comes to Technomancers. Either they have to have to be allowed to have a Datajack with no hit on their Resonance, or they all start with a max Res of 5. I would also use the "Living Persona" from SR4A and not the SR5 version.

Next, they can connect wirelessly, but with the above restrictions (maybe they can get to Complex Forms 4 Wirelessly), and can not give Sprites complex commands unless they have a hardwire connection.

Finally I would not allow Threading. That is one thing I can see (and have heard) as SOOOO abused. To compensate I can see them having the following Complex Forms as automatic: Attack, Armor, and Stealth. Everything else they have to pay for. If they want to boost the forms they already know, then they do it just like Mages do. Up to twice their Resonance ability and anything above Resonance means the Fade is physical.

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Sorry for rambling...

This should come down to what the understanding of ASIST is.

Is ASIST an interface that lets you manage and control a hugely fat datastream more efficiently by hijacking your brain with a metaphor-based sensorium? If so, there's an excellent reason to say that no wireless connection has any hope of keeping pace with the demands of a human sensorium. I did some of the math before; check out http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...t&p=1272854 and further down where I do an analysis of what's involved.

Alternatively, if you take the position that ASIST is an immersive interface to a relatively narrow datastream, rather like a fancy web browser or MUD client, then a wire leading from your brain to your deck, and a wireless connection from your deck to the Matrix, makes plenty of sense, although the latency of the link might reduce the immediate usefulness of the ASIST interface anyhow.

But that needs to be very carefully explained, clarified and made unambiguous in whatever replacement ruleset you're considering.

This is a good example of the importance of considering changes to rules as a whole, and not searching for a stand-alone correction for each issue. The sentence you quoted in the first place was part of a paragraph.

It does take a fair amount of rationalization to make Shadowrun make any sense. The setting finds itself in a tough bind. Technology hasn't followed the path that Shadowrun laid out for it. By SR3, it really was looking antiquated.

But it's also fighting against a change in our fears about technology. Shadowrun is built on a theme of powerful megacorps and powerless governments. But, now, the great technological fear is surveillance and loss of privacy. Play up the former, and you can have shadowrunners. Play up the latter, and you can't. It becomes something else.

Shadowrun cannot play up the fear of integrating technology into your life. It _can_ play up the sense of dependence on tech. The need to always have the latest and greatest to keep up. But, you can't be afraid that your shiny new chrome will get you hacked or tracked down.

Obviously, there will be some vulnerable things, as hacking is part of the game. But thematically, they need to be isolated.

Additionally, the setting needs weak, powerless governments full of corruption instead of big powerful ones full of corruption. Shadowrun is all about social Darwinism. The barrens exist because that's where the losers go, and nobody with the power to help has the desire to. That's where weak governments come in. A strong, corrupt government dominated by corps is going to be all about regulatory capture, and keeping everybody in the system so they can be good little consumers. A strong government wouldn't keep a large SINless population around, because it's easier to track people down if they have SINs. The governments and the corps would find ways to make those people dependent.

But weak governments can't regulate. Can't create dependents. They can't even begin to address the problems around them, and they aren't that useful to the corps, which is why they created their own governance in the corporate court. It also helps solve the police state surveillance problem. The Metroplex government doesn't have the resources to do that kind of tracking. They've offloaded the crime problem to a private company, who will only do as much as is necessary to keep the contract. Only corporate enclaves will have that kind of surveillance.

And while we're on the subject, big data analysis isn't easy to do in the Sixth World because of Deus. Powerful machine learning leads to AIs, and AIs are dangerous. I also like the ideas above about data balkanisation.

Yeah, the Barrens are really an artifact of governments too weak and poor to even maintain their own infrastructure. See modern Detroit for exactly how you make them, where you have good neighborhoods that are reasonably close to median conditions anywhere in the US, and neighborhoods where they've turned off the power and water to prevent massive leaks from stolen copper pipes and fires from unattended shorts due to scavenged and pest-damaged wires, nearly side by side.

OK, I read your post in that link you sent and it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the link.

Maybe the explanation on why the restrictions I laid out happen is because the hacking is being done, as you said, in AR rather than VR.

There is only one thing that I might disagree with you about VR: In SR Icons have become standardized, and so the Deck doesn't have to download EVERY bit of data. It only has to pull up an icon from its database. If you're in a node and to get through to another node you have to pass a security checkpoint, the host might say "Show a castle with the drawbridge down and the gate down." IC can be represented by "Show a knight in full armor and drawn sword in from of the gate"

Sure, in that case you're going for the case where the deck is presenting a fancy interface, in which case equivalent attacks should be doable using other interfaces. Your best argument then for the value of ASIST is some kind of immediacy, in which case wireless offers an immediate argument for latency, unreliability, interference and so on leading to less point using ASIST, as opposed to simple AR or VR or even a tortoise terminal.