No grenades dont do jack to decent runners. Sorry, but its true. You might tag the mages or deckers with a light if they roll bad or neglect to spend combat pool, thats about it. Since successes on a grenade test only make it land at ground zero and dont actually up the damage theyre not hard to resist...

As for the spirits clumping... AE spells have a range of (magic rating) meter radius out to los (unless its an ele manip spell). By 90 karma, the magicians are going to have magic attributes of 8, 9 something like that. An 8 meter radius is a 50 foot diamater sphere, which should easily be enough to catch most spirits in a normal size room. If the final battle was a warehouse fight or something, it would be harder, but itd also be that much easier for the players to use drones and recen the area since its one big room...

I know, it's not something I'd ever do with a character 'cos it's just too munchy but he did ask for a hiddeous character concept. As for elemental effects it'd probably be blast, fire, water, and lightning for the two knockdown effects and 2 ammo cooking off effects *8-> getting the drain downs the bitch though so there'll probably be a sustaining focus or quickening holding it *8-> As for drain mod, I'd be trying for caster only but I don't know if I'd let someone get away with it. Ohh and belows the start on the character that I've got done, stilla fair bit to go so far, and yes he has only a few skill points atm (1 i think) mainly cos there coming from the 300 karma *8->

Race: Troll Changling (15)
Magic: PhysMage (30)
Edges/Flaws/Surge: (-4)
Attribs: 34 (68)
Skills: 1 (1)
Resources: 200,000 (15) <--- this is probably going to drop to 90k though

Edges/Flaws/Surge
Exceptional Attrib (Str) x2 (4)
Astral Chameleon (2)
Surge: Dermal Deposits (2)
Allergy Uncommon Severe (silver) (-4)
Combat Monster (-1)
Vindictive (-2) [Hey what good bad guy isn't? *8->]
Surge: Dual Natured (-5)

Body: 11
Quick: 5
Str: 12
Char: 4
Int: 2
Will: 6

Cyber/Bio
Mnemonic Enhancer 3
Trauma Dampener

Powers
Magical Power 2 (2)
Killing Hands Serious (2)
Attrib Boost (Str) 4 (1)
Increased Abilities (Unarmed Combat) 2 (1)

Then add tatooed Increase Str 6, Increase Body 6, Increase Quick 6, Armour 6..... *8-> I think I can get his strength up to about 20ish and martial arts to 15+ or so fairly easily *8->

You don't want him to die? Very simple.

Make a hundred-karma character with a very high charisma and conjuring. Pour the remaining two hundred karma into an ally spirit. Make sure the ally has a form that looks almost identical to its owner. Slap a sustaining focus on it with a custom-designed Astral Mask spell. Presto, unkillable villian-- even if they destroy him, he'll be back in a month; and the main bad guy is untouched.

Chunky-Salsa doesnt help either, since you get hit in waves. Worst case people will take a moderate even with the waves, from a few lights adding up.

There is no garuntee the spirits will all attack from one side, this is true. I suppose if theyre presummoned and set to attack from all sides the mage would ahve to spend two actions, or fork a spell, to pull it off. Even if its only force 6, the mage can roll a few succeses against a tn 6 or 8 a lot easier than the spirit can roll enough successes against tn 6, simply because the mage will have a much bigger pool of dice at their disposal. Then, even if the spirit gets a few more and doesnt take a deadly, its at +2-3 tn for its one turn, until the mage casts it again next time and finishes them off.

Which all in all would make things somewhat challenging, for the first half of the combat turn. Then the bad guy would die. Which is exactly what I said would happen if you rely on a single individual.

I guess not everyone will build characters like we do, and be used to the same tactics, but theres only so much you can do to get around tactics which just dont fail except in very narrowly defined parameters. Having 6 sorcery, 6 spell pool, 6+ focus dice, a force 6 fire elemental all on hand, well when you want to bust a move its not so hard; and thats all available at starting. With a few levels of initiation (and it seems unlikley to me that by 90 karma you wont have spent at least 25-35 getting to the grade 2-3 range) it can get even scarier fast.

The catch is that the reason it works is because the mage has a team taking actions and backing him. No matter how many dice, a single npc is in one of two categories: I have enough dice to fry you all in one go making the encounter pointless (aka Lofwyr etc), or I can hurt you once on my first action then you go and I die. Groups make far, far, far more effective opposition for the PCs because theyre more flexible in both what they can do and the range of danger they can encompass.

This is by no means fully twinked:

Human Mage with Initiatory group of Flunkies.

Bod 5
Qck 6
Str 4
Cha 5
Int 4
Will 9
Mag 14
Bio 1.2
Ess 6

Combat 9
Spell 9

Sorcery (Combat Spells) 6 (12)
Shotguns 5
Conjuring 6
Athletics 4
Stealth 4
Leadership 5
Etiquette 4
Intimidation (mental) 4 (6)
Small Unit Tactics 4

Bioware:
Suprathyroid Gland
Trauma Dampener
Pain Editor

Initiated with Group and Ordeal:
Masking
Shielding
Reflecting
Psychometry (or Divination)
Absorption
Severing
Invoking
Channeling

Spells:
Detect Enemies 6 (with Sustaining Focus)
Enhance Aim 4 (with Sustaining Focus)
Inc Reflexes +3 2 (with Sustaining Focus)
Physical Camouflage 6
Slay Troll 8
Slay Ork 8
Slay Human 8

Gear:
Hardened Military Heavy, Ruthenium 12 Scanners
Military Helmet
Franchi-Spas II Shotgun w/APDS in BF mode

Edges/Flaws:
Friends in High Places
Focused Concentration
True Believer (Self)--Megalomania takes a whole new meaning
Vindictive

*Stabs the True Believer flaw*

~J

Well, I am not sure this guy would be anything more than a one trick pony, but why not a troll physad with Titanium bone lacing, killing hands deadly, a 22 strength (Enhanced Att str) , distance strike and quick strike, and a 12 point boxing skill. Plus you could give him a bunch of other abilities as well. essentially every time he went he would kill some one.

GM: You see the bad guy, he's a immense troll.

Runner: My init is 49, cool I frag him with my Vindicator.

GM: Sorry, he went before you, resist a 32D(Uber successes on bad guys unarmed combat roll) Oh and only impact armor applies.

Runner: I guess I am dead.

GM: *Ding* Next?


Edit: And just to protect himself from annoying mages add 6 or 8 levels of Magic Resistance.

Why stop there? Give him a martial art with Multi-Strike. Since Distance Strike doesn't allow any counterattacks, he can just go down the line in his one action and blow the entire team to smithereens before they have a chance to react.

If you make him a Surprise Test junkie, too (by giving him an insane amount of Sixth Sense dice as well as doing everything else you can do to raise Reaction to insane levels), most of them probably won't get a Dodge Test either.

…Ow? Why not just hand out new character sheets?

~J

That's White Dwarf's point.
By three hundred karma the bad guy can be Nhi-unstoppable in personal combat.
However CoalHeart said that it's not planned to have the PC's encounter this guy, so I think if it does happen then it will be on the players terms and it will be the Don in the crosshairs of that Barret .50 cal. BOOM one dead NPC, next.
You can't do this if your facing a team because you get your one shot then the other guys get to react.
Here endith the lesson

If your one shot is with a Great Dragon ATGM, then no, the rest of the group does not get to react.

~J

I'll see your Great Dragon and raise you 20 kilos C-12 and a Vindicator

Thats why you kill the guy with the detonater first, use all your 24 dice to dodge the vindicator, and kill him next.

24 dice won't do much vs. a dodge TN of 9.

~J

Karma then and purchase some success. You would have a karma pool of 30 or 15 depending.

What about a Rigger/Mage? Consider that the Armor Spell is compatible with any armor, and it automatically improves armor by the spell's force. Force 8 + Steel Lynx = Glowing vehicle against which anything non-AV with a power of less than 35 is no more useful than a thrown tomatoe. Multiply until you exceed the number of AV weapons they have by 1.

The Armor spell doesn't provide Hardened armor. You could get the normal armor rating up to that point, though.

The armor spell specifically works on "Worn armor" which is a far cry from vehicle armor. By the description it will not work on vehicles.

Wait, why not?

Because vehicle armor is statistically twice as good as regular armor, since the power of weapons shot at vehicle is halved (and it counts as hardened armor, I think). Its a slightly different animal. However there's nothing stopping anybody from researching a spell to provide a boost in vehicle armor (with a more drastic drain code ofcourse )

It doesn't have to act as vehicle armor. Just apply it like regular armor before any vehicle rules are applied.

I mean, it's kind of lame that you can armor a rock, a tree, a door, a toaster, but not a car.

Don't worry-- for some reason, putting wheels on an object makes it that much harder to affect with magic.

However, even if you can cast Armor on a car-- and I'm going to personally assume that you can't-- it wouldn't be hardened. A Bulldog with Armor 5 and a force 8 armor spell still only ignores non-AV attacks of power 10 or less. (Which, quite frankly, should be enough-- even without the Armor spell, it's not easy to take out a decently-armored vehicle with anything less than AV rounds!)

You can add Personal Armor to a vehicle via Rigger 3, so I have no problem with casting Armor on a vehicle. I mean it glows in the fraggin' dark and adds minimal protection. The spell's force must be 1/2 the (OR + Body + Armor) though.

Can i get a page number for where grenades both land closer and stage damage?

Even with 100S it still does a max of S, whuppee. Platelet factories or Treat/Heal to M, biotech to L, shake it off in a few hrs. Point being it *cant* kill you in one go, so the badguy will die when the PCs go.

And all the point about handing out new sheets is what Im saying. Either the 1 uber bad guy will drop the team, or theyll live thru whatever he does first and then whack him. Set up the big bad guy with a team or group, otherwise hes pointless.

Well, he's a question. If the armor spell can effect vehicles and other non-living oblects why is there a seperate Mask spell for vehicles (MitS)? Why doesn't the Mask spell just work for them normally? I figure there's got to be a different spell because vehicles do not have auras like living things do (hence your target number for a vehicle armor spell would be based on the object resistance table, like it is for the Vehicle Mask spell. Although I might be wrong on that one since I don't have it right in front of me).

To expand on a fairly low-power character I played...

Shaman. Cat, Fox, Rat, Snake, Gargoyle, Phoenix, Bacchus, or Seductress.

All have bonuses to Illusion and City spirit or Spirits of Man. Except for Phoenix, but it has fire spirits, which are trouble on their own if you take time to prepare or have Invoking, and they have the advantage of surviving twice as much damage as normal people.

Add in Focused Concentration and some damage-reducing bioware of your choice, along with Centering.

A City or Hearth spirit hits the runners with Confusion. The shaman adds Mass Agony or Mass Confusion on top of that. With a force 6 spirit and force 6 Confusion, the team has +12 to all non-damage TNs.

Use Mob Mind for similar fun if you go with one of the Control Manip totems (Seductress).

While the team is tied up with illusions, have a couple of goons gun them down at your leisure. Or have them do themselves in with Control Manipulations.

BBB Page 198: "The Armor Spell is compatible with All armor types. . ."

Emphasis mine.

It does also say it forms a field around the character, not the target, and it does mention adding to the armor that's worn, but still it says all armor which should include vehicular armor. It definetly does not say the Armor spell cannot work on hardened armor.

@Vlad the Bad:
Some spells are seperate for vehicles, some aren't. Illusion spells appear to always work differently on vehicles. Manipulation spells do not, you don't need a special vehicle-only version of flamethrower, or Lock, or Animate. Why would you need a seperate armor spell? No Manip uses seperate spells for vehicles.

Alright, now I'm getting a little confused. What is the difference between adding to the armor rating and augmenting the armor rating? The definition of both words is practically identical. Is there some canon reference to a difference? Thanks in advance.

Edit-Also if you were to increase the rating of hardened armor, why would it not be all hardened? How do you figure this part here is hardened, but this part over here is not? I dont disagree with you on whether or not it should be hardened, but I have a hard time finding rules to back that up.

Also, if used on hardened armor and didn't count as added hardened armor then what would the point of gel rounds on clothing be? which grants 1/1 hardened armor. It makes more sense (though it should have been spelled out) that it increased the effectiveness of the armor, so on hardened it is hardened, on normal it is normal.