Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Recoil
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Enkeli
This might sound stupid, but here goes.
Does Body or Strength, if they are high or low enough, help(or hinder) against recoil?
Is this just something i assosiate with Cyberpunk or is it stated in some book?
Neon Tiger
Strenght helps, with every full six points giving 1 point of recoil compensation. So:

1-5 str: None
6-11 str: -1 RC
12-17 str: -2 RC
18-23 str: -3 RC

And so on.
Enkeli
Thanks for the quick answer.
Austere Emancipator
Suomi-thread.

Actually, the numbers go like this:
1-5: None
6-11: 1 RC
12-18: 2 RC
19+: 3 RC

CC p. 103, Recoil and Strength
Enkeli
Nšin on. :=)
Sorry for typing Finnish....
TinkerGnome
High body is important if you want to hand carry a heavy weapon, too wink.gif
Capt. Dave
Yep, Body & Strength 8 to carry an LMG... ohplease.gif
Kagetenshi
Hey, that's realistic! What you don't know is that all modern LMGs are set to cast Increase Strength and Increase Body on anyone who picks them up.

~J
Fresno Bob
And you have to have superhuman strength to absorb the kick from a pistol.
Zeel De Mort
Yeah that bit doesn't entirely make sense. But you can just buy a well designed gun with a couple of points of RC in it. That'll take care of the recoil for you.

Helppo juttu!
Kagetenshi
Makes a certain amount of sense to me that you need that much strength to remove the inaccuracies associated with recoil. 'Sides, I'd rather have something like this be too harsh than too lenient; fully-compensated autofire is not my idea of a good time.

~J
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
'Sides, I'd rather have something like this be too harsh than too lenient; fully-compensated autofire is not my idea of a good time.

Completely agreed.
mcb
You might argue that the rules aready account for it but I think in RL skill level has alot more to do with recoil control than shear strenght. A 185 lbs Navy Seal will control the full auto fire from an M-14 a lot better thatn a 285 lbs linebacker will that has never fired a gun. There is a lot more to dealing with and controlling recoil than simply muscle the firearm around.

mcb
Thistledown
QUOTE
I'd rather have something like this be too harsh than too lenient; fully-compensated autofire is not my idea of a good time.



But it's so easy to do! biggrin.gif
Heavy Barrel
Personalized Grip
Gas Vent 4
Underbarrel Weight

Type.......................Mounts...FCU...DPV...Costs.......Recoil Comp
Light Machine Gun.......U.......1.50...840.....4200 nuyen.gif ..........9
Medium Machine Gun...U.......1.50...1115...5,575 nuyen.gif .........9
Heavy Machine Gun.....U.......1.50...1415...7,075 nuyen.gif .........9

*actually, I'm not sure heavy barrel and weight are compatable. And remember, it's only after the first that mods apply, so only 9 is needed. And while this works, I mean it as a joke, and wouldn't recomend it for characters. cool.gif

TinkerGnome
A few things... skill level does compensate for recoil. That huge linebacker with recoil comp 1 (remember humans can't go above RC 1 without cyberware) vs. the marine with no natural RC have a huge difference in dice used (or the linebacker has to take a penalty for defaulting which is much greater than the 1 RC).

When you come down to well trained soldiers, one with STR 4/skill 6 and one with STR 6/skill 5, the difference might be more noticable. Depending on the TNs, skill and strength may equate or they may not. -1 TN vs. 1-2 dice. Depends on the TNs on whether that's an even or uneven break.

On the LMG... you generally fire those from the hip on full auto?
Entropy Kid
Is there an entry anywhere that explains the effect of extra cyberarms or using an articulated arm to steady a weapon? I couldn't find anything on extra arms, and the entry for the articulated arm only specifies what it does for the weapon mounted on it (3 RC, laser sight, up to a LMG).

There's a picture on page 34 of CC of someone firing what I believe is a Panther Assault Cannon, and using three arms to do it. The "extra" arm is most likely an articulated arm. How do the rules describe that situation?

QUOTE
On the LMG... you generally fire those from the hip on full auto?
Not in real life, but by canon SR rules that seems to be how it's done, unless the LMG is attached to a gyro-mount of some kind.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Entropy Kid @ May 31 2004, 10:45 PM)
QUOTE
On the LMG... you generally fire those from the hip on full auto?
Not in real life, but by canon SR rules that seems to be how it's done, unless the LMG is attached to a gyro-mount of some kind.

Yes... for trolls, orks, and heavily cybered humans. CC p 99. It's relatively clear that other heavy weapons are meant to be fired from a bipod or tripod mount. [edit] On further scouring the BBB, I can't find a specific instance of this mentioned anywhere. There is a mention in the "Hip Bracing System" entry in CC, but it just references p 99. It's only true insofar as CC makes it true, then smile.gif [/edit]

For the lady in CC, I can't be sure that's not a gyromount. They tend to have an "arm" which comes out to attach the weapon to, and I can see one being "over" instead of under.

That, of course, begs the question of where the backpack portion of the system is...
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Thistledown)
*Actually, I'm not sure heavy barrel and weight are compatable.

I wouldn't see why not. As I understand it, heavy barrels are literally that- the actual barrel so it shouldn't have any affect on the mount underneath the gun.
Arethusa
Well, heavy barrels shouldn't give comp to begin with, but that's another matter entirely.

Moral of this story: ignore this stun damage/knockdown silliness unless you're dealing with something really, really big.
Zephania
I don'k know if this is well known but modern light and medium machine guns, arn't all that much bigger than an assault rifle.

Take the Minami as used by British/US troops, fires 5.56 beltfed rounds from an open bolt. An awsome piece of kit that has an integral iron sight, folding stock and is routinely fired from the shoulder.

You don't need massive strength to carry or fire it, but it does help. I don't see many troops built like Arnie just well trained instead.
mcb
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Well, heavy barrels shouldn't give comp to begin with, but that's another matter entirely.

Why not? It is simply adding weight to the rifle. Going from a sporter contoured barrel to a heavy bull barrel on a rifle is going to add a pound or more to the rifle depending on barrel length and outside diameters. The heavier the gun the lower the recoil velocity is going to be and all though it does not change the total recoil energy it does it does lengthen and lower the recoil impulse thus making it more comfortable and easier to control. Same as adding weight in the stock or forearm but you have distributed that weight around the barrel.
mcb
QUOTE (Zephania)
I don'k know if this is well known but modern light and medium machine guns, arn't all that much bigger than an assault rifle.

Take the Minami as used by British/US troops, fires 5.56 beltfed rounds from an open bolt. An awsome piece of kit that has an integral iron sight, folding stock and is routinely fired from the shoulder.

You don't need massive strength to carry or fire it, but it does help. I don't see many troops built like Arnie just well trained instead.

Light MG are not much bigger but quite a bit heavier. For example the SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) fires 5.56 belt feed ammo or from a standard M4 magazine and weight about 16.5 lbs unloaded. Where the M4 fire the same round and only weight 8.8 lbs with a 30 round magazine loaded. I sure there there are other similar examples. Some get the weight to compare the M14 to the M60 both of which fire the 308 Win. The extra weight make the SAW much easier to handle in full auto than then the M4. I believe that the M4 is no longer issue in full auto except to special forces. I believe safe, semi-auto and burst fire is all the standard solder get to chose from on the selector any more.

mcb
Arethusa
QUOTE (mcb)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jun 1 2004, 01:05 AM)
Well, heavy barrels shouldn't give comp to begin with, but that's another matter entirely.

Why not? It is simply adding weight to the rifle. Going from a sporter contoured barrel to a heavy bull barrel on a rifle is going to add a pound or more to the rifle depending on barrel length and outside diameters. The heavier the gun the lower the recoil velocity is going to be and all though it does not change the total recoil energy it does it does lengthen and lower the recoil impulse thus making it more comfortable and easier to control. Same as adding weight in the stock or forearm but you have distributed that weight around the barrel.

Because the purpose of a real heavy barrel is not recoil compensation. Problem is that within SR's mechanics, there aren't problems like accuracy degradation and overheating. Yes, it adds weight, but so does stapling a watermelon to your gun. Doesn't mean it should give you compensation in game.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Problem is that within SR's mechanics, there aren't problems like accuracy degradation and overheating.

That's a problem? More complexity != good.

QUOTE (Arethusa)
Yes, it adds weight, but so does stapling a watermelon to your gun.  Doesn't mean it should give you compensation in game.

That's only effective if you're a shaman following the Gallagher totem (I figure it's possible... I mean there's a Toaster shaman, so Gallagher isn't too much more insane).
mfb
as a nod to real life, it would make more sense to use the Body score to determine natural recoil compensation than it does Strength. keeping your weapon on-target has nothing to do with how much you can pick up and carry; you're not pulling the weapon back on target as it jumps from recoil. the best advantage you can naturally have, when firing a gun (besides steady hands) is physical bulk, which helps soak up some of the recoil.

see, when you fire a weapon correctly, you and the weapon basically act as a single unit. you breathe, the gun moves; the gun jerks, you shake. if there's more of you to shake when the gun jerks, the gun won't jerk so much--simple matter of energy and mass.

however, people who can lift and carry lots of stuff also generally have big bodies, so Str isn't too bad a stat to use for recoil comp. like i said, though, Body would be better.

incidentally, either me or mcb needs a new name. i keep reading his posts and going "wtf, i didn't write that!" my old name would be preferable.
Nikoli
QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Yes, it adds weight, but so does stapling a watermelon to your gun.  Doesn't mean it should give you compensation in game.

That's only effective if you're a shaman following the Gallagher totem (I figure it's possible... I mean there's a Toaster shaman, so Gallagher isn't too much more insane).

Now that's a thought for a launch weapon.
Watermelon canon

Not to mention Pole Arm 5(Sledge-O-Matic)7

Don't forget the Elvis Shamans
mcb
QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (mcb @ Jun 1 2004, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jun 1 2004, 01:05 AM)
Well, heavy barrels shouldn't give comp to begin with, but that's another matter entirely.

Why not? It is simply adding weight to the rifle. Going from a sporter contoured barrel to a heavy bull barrel on a rifle is going to add a pound or more to the rifle depending on barrel length and outside diameters. The heavier the gun the lower the recoil velocity is going to be and all though it does not change the total recoil energy it does it does lengthen and lower the recoil impulse thus making it more comfortable and easier to control. Same as adding weight in the stock or forearm but you have distributed that weight around the barrel.

Because the purpose of a real heavy barrel is not recoil compensation. Problem is that within SR's mechanics, there aren't problems like accuracy degradation and overheating. Yes, it adds weight, but so does stapling a watermelon to your gun. Doesn't mean it should give you compensation in game.

Sure it is. Heavy barrels are for making the barrel more ridged; make the barrel able to absorb more heat without distortion and to help compensate for recoil. Sure the watermelon would work too, at least to help reduce the recoil part, but its a bit inconvenient although more tasty then the bull barrel. Talk to anyone that shoots big game cartridges, one way to compensate for recoil is to add weight to the weapon, whether that is a heavier barrel or simply weighting the stock. This is especially true for dangerous game hunting shooting very heavy cartridges like 416 Rigby, 458 Lott, and 460 Wby, were most professional hunters will not allow the use of muzzle brakes in a hunting situation. Go find a recoil calculator and plug in some cartridge data and then change the over all weight of the weapon by a pound or two. Heavier weapons kick less plan and simple physics. You may not have put the heavy barrel on a weapon for recoil control but it will certainly help with that too.
Austere Emancipator
M60 & M14.

The thing people don't seem to get is this: more weight makes a weapon recoil less, not the other way around. Making a gun heavier or bigger doesn't make it more powerful, unless you're talking about lengthening the barrel, which only causes marginal changes when you're talking about rifle-length barrels. I blame anime.

It is a pain in the ass to keep aiming a long, heavy gun from the shoulder without any support, though, especially for a small weak guy like me. But that's nothing you should do up rules for, just remind players as the GM that a 7kg gun is not a good choice for a shoulder weapon for a below-average STR/BOD human.

QUOTE (mcb)
Heavy barrels are for making the barrel more ridged

Rigid. Stopped me for a while...

motorfirebox: Good idea. I liked your old name better anyway. wink.gif
Arethusa
mcb: I'm not saying that adding more weight to the gun in the form of a heavy barrel won't help lessen recoil through weight (as anything heavy, including that tasty ballistic summertime melon, will do); my issue is with heavy barrels being made solely into recoil compensation devices with pretty much no drawbacks, which just strikes me as wrong. You do have a point about using them in situations where brakes are not acceptable or viable, though.

Tinker: Hey, all I'm saying is that it can create some problematic dynamics where players who don't know any better will fire a gun for 20 seconds straight without realizing that the gun should be blowing up about now. If the GM doesn't know better (and, specifically, does not blow that gun up with fiat), it gets screwy. Does this mean including mechanics to calculate weapon heat, reliability, and accuracy degradation over sustained fire is a good idea? No, probably not. At least, I sure wouldn't want to play in that game. But they are elements a GM should pay attention to, even if there are no rules. That's all I'm saying.

Austere: I would blame Hollywood first. They're far more responsible for making the public believe that the bigger a gun is, the louder it is and the more it recoils. In my experience, I've seen more anime that gets its technical elements down very well (or, in a few cases, more or less perfectly) than the other way around.

mfb: Man, I thought that stood for Mobile Field Base. Didn't realize you were motorfirebox, but, then again, I did stop using the forums for the better part of a year. Was wondering if there was some connection between you and mcb, myself, for a while...
Austere Emancipator
On the general public, Hollywood has had a far greater negative effect, that's for sure. I was thinking only about SR, which has drawn much inspiration from anime, I gather.

You must have seen some really fucking great anime, then. I mean, stuff that's often considered "rather decent" in the firearms tech front like GitS, is really ridiculous when you get down to it.
Nikoli
Cowboy Bebop has a decent slant on pistols and heavy weapons, also on martial arts.
mcb
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
M60 & M14.

The thing people don't seem to get is this: more weight makes a weapon recoil less, not the other way around. Making a gun heavier or bigger doesn't make it more powerful, unless you're talking about lengthening the barrel, which only causes marginal changes when you're talking about rifle-length barrels. I blame anime.

It is a pain in the ass to keep aiming a long, heavy gun from the shoulder without any support, though, especially for a small weak guy like me. But that's nothing you should do up rules for, just remind players as the GM that a 7kg gun is not a good choice for a shoulder weapon for a below-average STR/BOD human.

QUOTE (mcb)
Heavy barrels are for making the barrel more ridged

Rigid. Stopped me for a while...

motorfirebox: Good idea. I liked your old name better anyway. wink.gif

Rigid hmmm... one of these days I will learn to be a better proofreader, sorry for the confusion. I do agree with you AE weight is your friend when it comes to recoil.

I would say that to a certain degree the extra weight from a bull barrel could actually make aiming easier. The extra mass along the length of the barrel make the moment of inertia of the weapon greater and thus is much slower to move or rotate when small twitches from the shooter attempts to moves it. This extra mass act like a mechanical low pass filter. In all but the standing position most of the weight should be supported using more bone then muscle. Proper prone, sitting, kneeling positions, all relight heavily on bone structure for support, this is especially true if you are using proper positions with a sling for additional support. Even in the standing position you can build a position that relies very little on muscle power and takes advantage of the skeletal structure of the body.

I believe most biathlon rifles are a medium bull barrel and all of the shooting in a biathlon is all done from the standing position without the aid of a sling.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jun 1 2004, 12:17 PM)
I blame anime.

And I blame George W. Bush and the Democratic National Convention. Is there any actual reason for you to say this, or just knee-jerk response?

For the record, I cannot remember a single series, movie, or manga where changing the weight of a weapon firearm changed its power. Sure, the guns aren't portrayed very accurately, but that's movie physics, not anime physics.

~J

Edit: you doze off while writing a post, and when you wake up someone else has made your point for you.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jun 1 2004, 01:50 PM)
On the general public, Hollywood has had a far greater negative effect, that's for sure. I was thinking only about SR, which has drawn much inspiration from anime, I gather.

You must have seen some really fucking great anime, then. I mean, stuff that's often considered "rather decent" in the firearms tech front like GitS, is really ridiculous when you get down to it.

I'd disagree about GitS. The manga has a lot of silliness, yes, but if you go into Shirow's notes, his knowledge of firearms is actually unusually deep, and he knows (and states rather bluntly) when he's created something ridiculous and improbable. In the movie, yeah, there's also some silliness, but there's a lot of unusually realistic stuff there, as well. In Stand Alone Complex, it's practically perfect, and if you haven't, I suggest you download some episodes (2nd Gig is the second season, currently airing) and check it out (it's also just very, very good).

As Nikoli points out, Cowboy Bebop is also quite excellent in this (though by no means only) regard.

[edit]

Gunslinger Girl, aside from a few gaffes (look at that P90 that can't penetrate a wooden table!), also got its technical elements down quite well.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Is there any actual reason for you to say this, or just knee-jerk response?

Yes there is. If I could find the links going around in here about GitS weapons, or the toy anime gun site, or any anime gun site in fact, I'd show you the reason. I can't, though.

Okay, for starters, the huge steel box "Batou" blasts the "tank" with in GitS (the movie) -- I think this was supposed to fire 14.5x114mm ... HEAT-rounds! Mecha guns. Little girls with huge-ass ARs with underbarrel GLs. Pistols that look like someone has glued lots of plastic crap and saw blades on them.

Which reminds me: When I build my own walker tank with autocannons, I make damn sure they can penetrate 12" of concrete at 50 meters.
Arethusa
What problem do you have with the Getemono that Batou used? It appears to just be a larger version of the HIWS that showed up at the 2003 Blackwater Shootout.
Austere Emancipator
Except that it fires the 14.5x114mm. HEAT 14.5x114mm. As in High Explosive, Anti-Tank, with a shaped charge and a copper liner, IIRC. A PTRS with half the barrel chopped off and 10kg of metal plates glued on firing useless ammunition.

And what was the deal with that medium-frame pistol firing .50AE?
Arethusa
Honestly, if you just ignore the silly specs that were released and take things purely from the movie (I don't believe it's ever stated in the film that the Jericho 942 is firing .50AE or that the Getemono is firing 14.5x114mm HEAT), it isn't so bad. Yeah, it has problems, but it also gets a lot of other things very right. But, that said, it's still nowhere near on the same level as the series, which you really need to check out.
Austere Emancipator
I don't particularly like anime, so I don't feel the need to check out anything. The fact that "semi-realistic" flicks have still got some of the same regrettable flaws as the purely silly flicks just makes it worse. Sort of like small arms penetration of construction materials in Black Hawk Down.

I'm starting to feel sympathy for the people who don't like anime at all and write it here by mistake...

(Of course, someone might have picked up the sarcastic vibe of a comment in the "I blame X" format. But that'd've been boring.)

http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=1989
TinkerGnome
What you run into, though, is that many people (myself included) don't necessarily want a 100% realistic game. I'll take simplicity over realism about 50% of the time. Trying to inject realism into a fragment of the SR recoil rules is almost silly because of the bizzare way in which burst fire and full auto work in the first place.

Why is it that firing 10 rounds from an AR at someone has a significantly lower chance of hitting them than firing 1 round? Even considering their increased dodge TN, the +10 recoil you take makes it impossible for the first bullet to hit, much less the tenth.

Why is it that you either hit with 10 rounds or not at all?

A quick fix would be to use something akin to a hyrbid open and success test to determine the number of bullets that actually hit a target, but it's a house rule, after all, and has the potential to ruin game balance. (Ie, you roll your AR skill against a normal TN, ignoring recoil. Note successes and the highest die result. Subtract the TN from the highest die result and that's the number of rounds that hit, up to a max of your ROF. Adjust damage codes accordingly. Each point of recoil compensation is an extra bullet that hits. Beyond recoil comp, shotguns and heavy weapons only get half the difference in bullet hits (round down)).
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
(Of course, someone might have picked up the sarcastic vibe of a comment in the "I blame X" format. But that'd've been boring.)

It also would have required more effective use of brainpower than I was capable of making at 1:00 in the afternoon after a night of no sleep smile.gif

~J
Austere Emancipator
Excluding LMGs and MMGs from the BOD8/STR8, Recoil damage and double recoil rules actually makes the game more simple, not less. Same goes for making LMGs do the same damage as ARs and fire the same ammunition, only with more recoil compensation and different ranges.

There are other, equally workable quick solutions to autofire rarely hitting.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012