Hi runners. Been visiting the forums a few weeks and this is my first post.
I did try find the answer for my question but couldn't find it. If someone does, please link me to it.

Anyway, me and my buddies extracted a VIP and his family to another country and he gave us their SIN's. We want to fence them but we don't know what would be the original price for them. I checked on Unwired and the only thing I've got was how to strip SIN's and how to make fake SIN's. Nowhere it says how you use legit SIN's to create fake ones.

Legit SINs don't have a rating, since the thing itself is valid. The rating of a fake sin indicates how hard it is to spot that it's fake - your stolen sin is, for all intents and purposes, rating infinite. However, since the SINs are tied to said family's biometric data, others won't be able to use them at all until they've be edited and laundered and jiggery pokery done to the SIN database. You can't fence them until you do that, because they're unusable.

I would suggest using the rules for creating Fake SINs but reduce thresholds significantly for editing the biometrics.

Alternately, make such "given" or "stolen" SINs like gold - a siginificant boost to their rating, and allow them to go above rating 6, since only basic biometrics have been edited, and they are for all intents and purposes a real sin other than that. It strikes me as very Shadowrun to have that kind of reward be a holy grail for people that want to go legit.

Adarael-- I think I disagree with you. There is a value to the SIN they were given. With no work done at all, they have a rating 1 or 2 sin. It is a real sin that has not been blown, and can be used for anything that does not require them them to look in a camera, use a voice print, etc...

There should be a bunch of people who would be glad to get their hands on those SINs, and would likely pay a fair price for them. I would treat them as a rating 1 or two sin, and pay them a % of the value (1000 - 2000 Nuyen) based upon their loyalty and connection rating with the fake id vendor. Now if they went out and did some basic work to improve the quality of the fake ID (removing the biometric data, and etc), then it would improve the value or the rating accordingly.

That's true, I hadn't considered low-rating "swipe and pay" type things, such as Stuffer Shack business.

So, when you say to remove the biometric data, you mean that we strip it?
If so, what would be the new rating for it?

Not having looked at the stripping rules more than once or twice, I don't know offhand. But I'd suggest 'pretty high', since the owners have deliberately given them up.

The rules in Unwired deal with this briefly.

The individual GM should decide how much effort he wants to go to. This could be a simple weekly spoof role to a target number, or it could be a run in an of itself. This could also be a combination.
Player 1 does a datasearch and uses his contacts to find out where the bio data is stored, player 2 makes some bribes to gain access, and the hacker rewrites the data.

You can make this as complicated or as simple as you like. I would probably lower the target numbers for creating a fake sin by a few points, and let the players do the rolls straight from unwired.

Thank you guys. I'll make sure my GM reads this.

Well, Shinobi, as your GM, i´ve read it. So, we will discuss the money earned on your next Run. But don´t think you will get your pockets very full after this.

Unless I'm missing something, I believe something is not adding up here: the pass. I mean, the original SIN holder used it all his life and spread his own biometrics in countless systems. IMO, just rewriting the biometric on the SIN is bound to raise alerts when it will be used (or be scanned by a passing Lone Star drone).

When a fake SIN is created (at least this is how I see this), it comes with a whole story since the fake's birth, which exists on countless systems. The rating of the fake SIN represent the completeness and validity of the fake's pass (and copy/paste wouldn't work much because it would need to be done on those countless systems).

Otherwise, identity theft would be too easy ... especially with all those hackers who can access your commlink any time and get what they want.

That's what the scrubbing rolls are for: editing the biometric data in the servers that get cross-referenced. You don't need to edit all servers it ever accessed, because they don't talk to each other. Look at it this way:
1) You have a Bank of America account with your biometrics, which for all intents and purposes is the main SIN database for this thought experiment.
2) You have a car loan with your biometrics on it.
3) You have medical database with your biometrics on it.

For doing day to day SIN stuff, you only need to edit #1, because if you're opening a lock at work, it won't check your car loan. It likewise won't check your medical record for a lock, because that would bog down legitimate medical database queries. For applying for a job, you'd wanna scrub #1 and #3, because they'll want to cross-reference your medical records for insurance issues. And for opening a new savings acct, you'd wanna do #1, #2, and #3. #2 and #3 will almost never talk to each other, and usually #1 is all anyone else would access.

The rating can be seen as a measure of how many of these records are manipulated. A failed roll on the scanner's part indicates it has decided your sin has enough verification that its own records are probably an error, and it will trust you. A successful roll indicates that it has corrolated enough data to indicate you might be lying about your own identity, since it has found mismatching records above threshold X.

You don't need to. You just sell them.

Without asking questions why anyone would want the SINs of a VIP family. It's usually better not to know.

In this case, the VIPs wanted to disappear because they were hunted both by the Mafia AND the Vory, making Denver basically a VERY BAD place to be.

I would do the same in their place. Becaming sinless is better than Becaming DEAD.

Aye, but I think Rotbart van Dainig was talking about the intentions of the buyers and not the family, personally I think the family made a huge mistake by giving away their old SINs given the shear amount of data that can be gleamed from one of those, hmm, I think you might have given yourself an expanded story arc.

The VIP in question is a smuggler. He know how to dissapear. But who am i to discard an Extended Story Arc?

Legit SINs only get broken when you've really, really pissed off the guy at the $GovernmentOffice and he decides to make a few... "Typing Mistakes" and suddenly a few inconsistancies come into your SIN that a Cop might break.

Such as misspelling of name on the vehicle registration, wrong address (Inverted numbers are a good one), fingerprints don't match up (Right for left and vice versa), and so on. Just the sort of "Sloppy Work" a Cop would expect from a low-grade Fake SIN.

Oh, and look, it's almost quota time, "Come with me, sir. Your vehicle is being impounded and you are being questioned about your... Questionable SIN."

Now, if Mr. SINner has a Lawyer, this'll all get fixed in a few hours, or days if it's Friday Night. But think about the next few hours/days he'll have in the local lockup.