Having read the Awakened section in the core book (thats the only book I currently have access to) a couple times through, I understand (at least I think I do) the relationship between a character's Magic rating and his Initiation grade. What I don't understand / can't find is whether or not there is an actual cap on initiation grade. As I currently understand it, your Initiation grade cannot exceed your Magic rating and your natural maximum rating for Magic is equal to 6 + Initiation grade; thus as long as the character has the karma to pay for it, could raise his magic and initiation to infinity. To me, that just seems broken, none of the other stats can go to infinity. If someone could point me to where I can find more info, I would greatly appreciate it.

My first character that I have created for an upcoming game is a weapon specialist of sorts, a chromed out Ork. He is not going to be awakened, but I would like to understand the mechanics and the limits so that I can fully understand the scope of what I could be going up against.

Theoretically, yes, it can go to infinity. Great Dragons, for example, are assumed to have double digit initiation and magic ratings. They are also Great Freaking Dragons. The karma required to get your magic rating that high is practically impossible, so I wouldn't worry about it.

You have it right. Unlike every other stat and skill in the game, you can increase magic forever.

Thanks guys, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding the rules. Nothing gets my character's killed faster in a new setting than having a false understanding of the game mechanics!

Good Luck

Keep the Faith

You mean Great Dragons that have names, right? Because in my book, Great Dragons only have a Magic of 12. I guess that is in fact a double-digit Magic rating, but the book doesn't say anything about Initiation, and your post seems to imply really high doublr-digit scores, not something on the much lower end of the double-digit spectrum.

It doesn't really matter that much. Once you are able to cast/quicken/anchor spells at force 24 there isn't much incentive to keep on increasing it.
(Physical damage is actually preferred sometimes by the Dragons because of their huge body).

Just.. just ignore those. An adult dragon would have a rating of 40-50. A great should be at least 70-90. I think the IE's are probably in the 45 range. I seem to remember a few threads where people put GD's in the triple digits, Elves like Harlequin in the low 90's/high 80's, and adults in the 70's.

At least, that's what I think. *cough*.

Seriously, where are you guys pulling those numbers? The Sourcebook gives a Magic rating of 7-12 for normal dragons and a Magic rating of 12 for Greats, with no Initiation Grade listed. So what you guys think and what is official material are two completely different things. If they don't have Initiation Grades, W@ageMage, they can't Quicken/Anchor, so that concept is nipped in the bud.

Uh... are you talking about the THIRD edition sourcebook? Did they even have initiation in 3rd? I honestly don't remember.

Catalyst agrees with me, at least:

Running Wild, p. 81: "Sapient dracoforms and dracomorphs should always be treated as prime runners, and most dracoform/dracomorph magicians are initiates."

RW doesn't list stats for dragons, proper, that I can see. An Elder Lindworm has a Magic Rating of 9, however. P. 84. Note that Lindworms are often vassels to Dragons, so it seems natural for a Dragon to have a Magic rating higher than that.

... I really need to get that freaking book (Running Wild).

The stats for dragons are in SR4. It is to those stats that I refer, as I do not own a copy of Running Wild. I refuse to download any of these books illegally or accept downloaded copies that were downloaded illegally (and I don't want to get into a debate whether or not torrenting is actually illegal or not - if not in letter of the law, it is illegal in the spirit of the law). And it is the stats for the dragons in the Core Rulebook that place a Magic score of 7-12 for normal dragons and a score of 12 to Greats, with no mention of Initiation.

And above those stats is a disclaimer saying that those are merely guidelines should the need for numbers arise and that great dragons should always be in another league than tiny PCs, no matter how advanced those PCs may be. I guess the stats in the book were simply made in comparison to a 400BP starting char, so the official formula for a great dragon's magic would be "whatever you can throw at it, times two"


PS: Magic is not the only stat that can go infinite, resonance can also do that. One day I want to have resonance 20 (=>signal rating 11) and be able to fry everything that moves a with single thought

Neraph, I thought it would be obvious that an innately magical being like a Dragon that has been around a couple of years has learned initiation.
Especially when normal dragons don't have the shapeshift power the Greats have and must rely on spells to discreetly interact with metahumans.
(This makes initiation and Masking a must for Dragons)

SR has advanced quite a bit since the SR4 book was published. Hence those stats are only guidelines.
I hope you don't suggest that elite troops or Lone Star cops only use those stats and equipment?

Meh, I really wish the devs would simply hardcap Magic and have done with it.

They can't. Magic is the "I Win" button in SR.

*chuckles*