Dumpshock Forums > Technomancer build

RdMarquis

Feb 7 2012, 11:27 PM

I've never built a matrix based character before, but after reading about technomancers, I decided to give it a shot. How does this look?

[ Spoiler ]

UmaroVI

Feb 7 2012, 11:53 PM

Look at my sig for some example technomancers that are well-constructed.

You are a human and getting absolutely no benefit from it. You could even be an elf and save points (since you hardcapped your Charisma).

If you're going to suck at physical things (and you are), Body is the one thing you really shouldn't cut corners on because it will stop you from actually dying more effectively than your other physical stats.

You don't really need a 5 logic, because it doesn't do anything particularly important except set the number of complex forms you have and you have waaaay too many complex forms.

Having one 6 skill rather than two 5 skills saves you 2 karma over time.

Something's funny with your skills. You have everything listed, even if you didn't take any ranks in it (which I'm assuming is the plaintext output of a program), but some skills are missing entirely like Electronic Warfare. I'm not sure what skills you have. Having 0 electronic warfare is a bad idea but having 1 is OK enough. You also don't appear to have Software, and you want Software 4.

Cybercombat 4 is not at all worth it. As a technomancer, you really should be focusing on stealth on the matrix rather than e-slapfights, because sprites > you and because unlike hackers, you always take real damage. Paladin sprites are good for this. I mean, it's not totally worthless, but it should be much lower on your list of priorities.

Codeslinger (control device) is worth it if you care about rigging. Codeslinger for Hacking on the Fly is debatable. Analytical Mind is a very good idea.

CFs: you need to trim this down. First, you can only have Logicx2. Second, you really don't want to blow piles of points on lots of highly situational CFs - you can use Threading, Assist Operation, and just getting sprites to do it for those. You want rating 6 in key, important things. You do not want less than rating 6 in anything - it's either worth it, or not.

Medic is the absolute least useful Complex Form you can possibly have. First, Medic actions are a bad idea even for hackers, because Matrix Damage is only pretend damage and you can fix it by rebooting, and if you are in the middle of a fight you should be stopping your opponent, not Medicing. It is even worse for a Technomancer because you do not take Matrix damage and can't Medic yourself.

Attack and Blackout are both bad CF choices that you should probably drop. You do not want to cybercombat as a techno, you want to hide behind Paladin sprites. You might want Disarm anyways because you can do things like Disarm an Analyze program to stay hidden so if you feel the need to do something besides hide in cybercombat, that can be it.

Edit is an iffy choice, because while Edit is important, being able to make threshold 4 edit tests is good enough, and being better than that is not helpful.

Stealth, Exploit, Analyze, and Spoof are all necessary and can't be dropped.

Your armor is screwy, but you also want more body so we can play Pretty Pretty Princess Shadowrun Dressup later if you have trouble with it after fixing your body, but your goal should be to wear Form Fitting Body Armor, possibly Softweave if it's allowed by your GM, and then enough other stuff (one regular item of some type, then accessories/mods like PPP, Moonsilver Scarf, Quizzel Fairy Wings, the Attitude threadings, and Gel Packs) to get your encumbrance up to 2x Body.

You do want a fake commlink so you can do minor things without giving away that you are a technomancer and so you can have it broadcast in must-have-active-commlink areas, but you don't need an expensive one with programs. Just get a cheap crappy one.

RdMarquis

Feb 8 2012, 01:44 AM

Ok. Thanks. Yeah, I made this character using the Chummer program, and it lists all of the skills on a character sheet.

I'm probably not going to make her a rigger, but should I keep Command? Is it used for anything aside from controlling machines, and how high should the rating be?

Similarly, how is Electronic Warfare used?

Actually, perhaps I should be asking whether I lack any skills that a technomancer hacker should have.

UmaroVI

Feb 8 2012, 02:06 AM

Command: you use it to remote-control stuff in general, which can include vehicles. As a techno, you can get decent dice pools just defaulting on stuff by threading/Assist Operation-ing your Command to 12, possibly using Machine Sprite diagnostics on whatever the thing is, applying Hot Sim bonus, and (if you have it) Codeslinger. Even if you don't plan on being a primary rigger, a cheap drone or two and command 6 makes you a passable rigger. Get something with arms (Ford LEBD-1 is a good choice, it is cheap, flies, has an arm, and has a weapon mount, so it's a good all-round drone), and something small like a flying eye drone. You don't have to start with them, you can always buy drones later.

Computer: the most important uses are Matrix Perception and Edit. Having 0 is unacceptable. Having 1 is livable but low matrix perception can be a nuisance.

Cybercombat: cybercombat (but note that defending against cybercombat doesn't use the cybercombat skill). Not very important in general because cybercombat is generally not very important, and when it is, you are best off hiding behind Paladin sprites rather than fighting yourself.

Data Search: finding stuff on the Matrix ie using google, which you can outsource to sprites easily. Finding stuff on nodes ie locating Paydata.txt, which is not generally hard but which you cannot as easily outsource to sprites. You can get away with 0 (you can default on it) but you can still get use out of 4 because it means you can find Paydata.txt faster.

Electronic Warfare: you need this to find hidden nodes, and to listen in on communications. It's not necessary to be great at this but it's not a good idea to have 0 of this either, because you cannot default on this.

Hacking: a huge amount of stuff. You should have Hacking 4 or Hacking 6.

Hardware: not too useful for technos, if you were a logic techno might be worth it, not for a different type.

Software: for threading. Have a 4.

Compiling: summon sprites. Have a 4. Sprites are really good.

Registering: register sprites. Have a 4 or 6. Sprites are really good, and unlike spirits and binding, registering sprites is free ie you should have your Charisma on-hand at any time with plenty services. The reason to have 6 here and 4 compiling rather than the other way around (although 4 in both and 6 hacking is also a good option) is that they resist Registering with 2xRating and Compiling with just Rating, so you need more Registering.

Decompiling: melting your own eyeballs. Don't take it.

RdMarquis

Feb 8 2012, 07:38 AM

Something more like this, then?

[ Spoiler ]

Should I bother with Command and Browse at all? Or just thread them? Are there any other Complex Forms worth getting later?

UmaroVI

Feb 8 2012, 11:48 AM

Browse is not really worth it. Command is maybe or maybe not worth it and is up to you.

Generally speaking, CFs are not worth it after character creation, because of the scaling karma cost. A rating 6 CF is 6 bp, or 21 karma. Getting it to 7 is another 7 karma. It might be worth picking up the odd CF at rating 1 or something if you find yourself threading it a lot and occasionally falling short of what you need.

Do not have CFs at rating below 6 for this reason. Either drop it, or have it at 6.

Why do you have Charisma 4 and Influence 3? Charisma is very important to you, you should have Charisma 6 and Influence 1 which gets you the same social skill rolls and more Charisma. Actually, you should really try to cut something like a point of Agility for Charisma 7.

Seriously Mike

Feb 8 2012, 12:14 PM

QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Feb 8 2012, 12:53 AM)

Medic is the absolute least useful Complex Form you can possibly have. First, Medic actions are a bad idea even for hackers, because Matrix Damage is only pretend damage and you can fix it by rebooting, and if you are in the middle of a fight you should be stopping your opponent, not Medicing. It is even worse for a Technomancer because you do not take Matrix damage and can't Medic yourself.

I don't exactly get it, care to explain? I thought that if you're dumping all the heavy fighting on Agents/Sprites, Medic would be useful to keep them working while they carve the opponent up. What is wrong with this way of thinking, if anything is? "Shoot the medic first"?

QUOTE (RdMarquis @ Feb 8 2012, 08:38 AM)

Should I bother with Command and Browse at all? Or just thread them? Are there any other Complex Forms worth getting later?

...Browse CF? That's pretty bizarre, especially considering you won't be using it often, at least not in stressful situations. Thread it, or just have a Browse program on your public commlink. As for Command, it depends on how much are you going to rely on bots and remotely controlled vehicles. High-rating Command programs are essential for AR riggers.

UmaroVI

Feb 8 2012, 12:48 PM

Medic is bad because Repair Icon isn't very useful. You need to hit a Damage Taken x2 threshold to heal the damage - so every 2 hits you get heals 1 box of damage. But attackers will be doing damage faster than that - if you have Medic 12 and Computer 4, plus Hotsim 2, that's 18 dice, so you can get 6 hits per action which is worth 3 boxes. But remember those boxes only vanish when you fully repair. If your paladin sprite is taking damage more slowly than that, you don't have a problem - when it gets low on health, just hold an action to Compile a new one. If it's taking damage faster than that, Medic won't help.

If you just want to repair a sprite out of combat so as not to need to summon a new one, you can always thread Medic and do it. If you aren't in a hurry it's easy to pull off.

Browse: remember you use Browse to find Paydata.txt on nodes. Occasionally you will need to kick down the door and grab Paydata.txt before someone arrives to stop you, so being able to use Browse better to find it faster is not worthless. I don't think Browse CF is worth it in general, though - it's rare enough that I would rather use Threading and Assist Operation for the times it comes up.

RdMarquis

Feb 8 2012, 12:57 PM

QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Feb 8 2012, 04:14 AM)

I don't exactly get it, care to explain? I thought that if you're dumping all the heavy fighting on Agents/Sprites, Medic would be useful to keep them working while they carve the opponent up. What is wrong with this way of thinking, if anything is? "Shoot the medic first"?

...Browse CF? That's pretty bizarre, especially considering you won't be using it often, at least not in stressful situations. Thread it, or just have a Browse program on your public commlink. As for Command, it depends on how much are you going to rely on bots and remotely controlled vehicles. High-rating Command programs are essential for AR riggers.

Hrm. I was thinking that. But wouldn't it be better to do what you hacked into a node to do while the Sprites are duking it out, then make your getaway? Can Black IC jam your connection open if a Paladin Sprite took the hit for you? If you were trapped, would it be worth it to help your sprites fight any defensive programs off?

As for Browse, I was just worried about being stuck in a situation where everyone else in the group was stuck tapping their feet while I struggled to find the information we needed with a tiny data search dice pool.

Blitz66

Feb 8 2012, 01:13 PM

You should be connecting through a device you can physically disconnect, so Black IC can jam whatever it wants and it doesn't matter. You are never truly trapped.

UmaroVI

Feb 8 2012, 02:59 PM

The thing about Black IC jamming your connection open is that it can only do that if you are a moron. If you aren't a moron, you Jam on the Fly using yourself as the jammer, which knocks you offline. This causes you to take dumpshock, but meh.

If the paladin sprite is Castling, it can only redirect damage, not secondary effects (per RAW - some GMs may let it redirect those too). However, sprites only have Matrix Condition Monitors and can't take Stun or Physical, so if someone is Black IC-ing you while you are Castled, the sprite takes no damage. Thus, it isn't a very effective tactic.

Re: Browse, several sprite types have Browse and Data Search. If you want stuff found, Sleuth Sprites (which you can compile as a technoshaman) are really, really good at it, because they have the skill and CF at their rating, and also have the Traceroute power which is almost impossible to hide from.

lunavoco

Feb 8 2012, 03:17 PM

Generally, I'd recommend all physical stats at 2 (or 1 if you're feeling cheesy) except Body 3. Agility, Reaction, and Strength aren't really contributing that much to you're role and the build points can better be spent elsewhere.

I agree about dropping Medic. Your actions are better spent completing the mission than patching up your spirtes. Roll in with [Charsima] sprites and let them do their jobs while you do yours.

It's is probably more effecient to thread Browse and have a sprite assist than to buy the CF yourself, but i tend to define my character through his skills and prefer to own the skill myself. Plus, i enjoy threading my googleing skill, grabbing a sprite, and making more outrageous data search rolls.

QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Feb 8 2012, 06:48 AM)

Generally speaking, CFs are not worth it after character creation, because of the scaling karma cost. A rating 6 CF is 6 bp, or 21 karma. Getting it to 7 is another 7 karma. [snip ] Do not have CFs at rating below 6 for this reason. Either drop it, or have it at 6.

Sadly, I couldn't agree more. I generally load up on CFs at chargen at the cost of other things and fill out sideways with my first few rounds of karma after play starts.

RdMarquis

Feb 8 2012, 08:54 PM

What about, say, Sniffer, or any of the other Electronic Warfare skills? Can they be left up to a sprite?

UmaroVI

Feb 8 2012, 08:59 PM

Generally, yes, they can be left to sprites and threading. EW is mostly stuff you need to do before you can hack - most common uses are Detect Hidden Node and Decrypt (you can Encrypt nodes, and that forces you to Decrypt them before you can hack them). For the most part, being bad at EW just means those things take a bit longer. You also use EW to intercept traffic (which is really rare, because of how stuff is sent out in distributed packets; you generally just hack either the sender or receiver instead). Thus, usually, it's either acceptable to be meh at EW, because you don't care whether it takes you 6 or 8 seconds to find a node, or you can summon a sprite to do really important things (like intercept traffic).

The main reason I recommend having at least 1 in it is that you cannot default, which is a potential problem; if you need EW done, and also need a sprite doing something, you are out of luck if you can't even roll it yourself. Data Search is different in that you can default on it, so you can do simple things yourself.

I don't recommend any of the EW Complex Forms, though.

RdMarquis

Feb 9 2012, 11:40 AM

Alright. Bearing all that in mind, does this build work any better?

[ Spoiler ]

Thanks for helping me with this, by the way.

Seriously Mike

Feb 9 2012, 12:50 PM

QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Feb 8 2012, 01:48 PM)

Medic is bad because Repair Icon isn't very useful. You need to hit a Damage Taken x2 threshold to heal the damage - so every 2 hits you get heals 1 box of damage. But attackers will be doing damage faster than that - if you have Medic 12 and Computer 4, plus Hotsim 2, that's 18 dice, so you can get 6 hits per action which is worth 3 boxes. But remember those boxes only vanish when you fully repair. If your paladin sprite is taking damage more slowly than that, you don't have a problem - when it gets low on health, just hold an action to Compile a new one. If it's taking damage faster than that, Medic won't help.

Yes. Now it makes sense. So in case of a normal hacker, I should ditch the Medic program completely and invest the money in upgrading a combat Agent instead? If the agent gets crashed, I can always restart him, right?

UmaroVI

Feb 9 2012, 12:54 PM

There's some minor tweaks I would make, still, but the big thing is that 4 charisma. That is a very bad idea. There's no good reason to have Charisma 4 and Influence 3. You really should have Charisma 6 and Influence 1 which is outright better for the same amount of points. There's no reason to go the other way.

I would also really try to scrape up another 13 points to bump those last two CFs up to 6 and to bump your Charisma up to 7. Those are all things that are extremely costly with Karma but not that pricey with BP - those would cost a whopping 52 karma, which is 4 times the bp cost. I would recommend cutting Gymnastics by 1, Electronic Warfare by 2, and seeing if you can't cut 5000Y of gear. You can buy the skills back later for far, FAR less (16 karma) if you feel you need them after seeing how it works in game, and you have little to do with cash aside from buy fancy clothes and drones.

UmaroVI

Feb 9 2012, 12:57 PM

QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Feb 9 2012, 07:50 AM)

Yes. Now it makes sense. So in case of a normal hacker, I should ditch the Medic program completely and invest the money in upgrading a combat Agent instead? If the agent gets crashed, I can always restart him, right?

It's a bit less clear-cut with a normal hacker because the opportunity cost of Medic is very low. 1.2 bp for Medic 6 that you never use? Meh. 6 bp and a Complex Form slot for Medic 6 that you never use? That's very bad. Medic is still not very good for hackers; I can see it maybe occasionally being useful if you are going through a multi-node system and take Matrix damage, but don't want to just restart to fix it since that would "reset" your progress, but that's a very niche use still - and it also doesn't pay to be good at Medic, versus just have it. On a hacker, I would probably take the compromise option of Medic 3, which is so cheap it might as well be free, unless I was very tight on points.

(The archetype hackers don't have Medic because of my "no widgets" policy).

Seriously Mike

Feb 9 2012, 01:17 PM

My hacker is AR-based, so his job's focused more on on-site work. Also, I play SR4, not Anniversary, so Medic is wee bit more useful (1 hit = 1 damage repaired, but it's still extended action, so either you need a humongous pool or a shitload of luck, or best - both). But I agree with it being useless on a technomancer - you can't patch yourself up and you're better off restarting your combat sprites if you suck at Cybercombat yourself.

RdMarquis

Feb 9 2012, 01:20 PM

QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Feb 9 2012, 04:54 AM)

There's some minor tweaks I would make, still, but the big thing is that 4 charisma. That is a very bad idea. There's no good reason to have Charisma 4 and Influence 3. You really should have Charisma 6 and Influence 1 which is outright better for the same amount of points. There's no reason to go the other way.

I would also really try to scrape up another 13 points to bump those last two CFs up to 6 and to bump your Charisma up to 7. Those are all things that are extremely costly with Karma but not that pricey with BP - those would cost a whopping 52 karma, which is 4 times the bp cost. I would recommend cutting Gymnastics by 1, Electronic Warfare by 2, and seeing if you can't cut 5000Y of gear. You can buy the skills back later for far, FAR less (16 karma) if you feel you need them after seeing how it works in game, and you have little to do with cash aside from buy fancy clothes and drones.

You meant bump my Charisma up to 6, right? I'd need a lot more BP and a quality to get it up to 7. I think I can manage that, and the rest of these suggestions. Attribute issues aside, are there any other glaring problems that should be fixed?

Seriously Mike

Feb 9 2012, 01:30 PM

You're playing an Elf. 7 Charisma is the softcap, 8 is maximum.

RdMarquis

Feb 9 2012, 01:32 PM

QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Feb 9 2012, 05:30 AM)

You're playing an Elf. 7 Charisma is the softcap, 8 is maximum.

Oh, that's right. I should probably get rid of the contact lenses that give me low light vision, too.

Irion

Feb 9 2012, 02:07 PM

Technomancer have a little Problem:
You have to optimize them like HELL in BP or they will fall behind very, very fast. Your TM has around 200 Karma less, than he could have.

Lets take a look at Your char:
Just raising all the complex form to 6 would cost you 6BP (first character). (Drop Pistol(taeser) for it)
What would it be worth?
Pistol(teaser):6Karma
Increased complex forms: 35 Karma!

I do not know if you play with the latest rules, but threading is now a free action. This means you can't thread every form you need.
This technomancer has NO armor form, no shield and no attack. He is a sitting duck in the matrix and technomancer SUCK outside (No way around that).

This might be a bit mean to say, but I guess you won't have fun with this char (granted you won't have fun with any kind of technomancer out of charge). But this char would need around 200 Karma just to cover the basics. Optimize him a bit and he will only need around 40 Karma.

General rules for TM:
Get your Logic to the soft cap and take all the complex forms you can get up to your ressonance. (It is in Game just too expensive to get them)

Attributes at two are worth nothing. You even glitch more often. Normally I would not mind, but technomancers need those points...
Minmax other attributes too. Drop low level skills and get them afterwards.

Drop gear you do not need or which you can easy get after chargen. Due to your high lifestyle, you should have a lot of money.

Hell, it beeing a technomancer I would even consider dropping the influence group.

Either optimze your char or talk with your GM about houserules...

Seriously Mike

Feb 9 2012, 02:31 PM

QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 9 2012, 03:07 PM)

I do not know if you play with the latest rules, but threading is now a free action. This means you can't thread every form you need.
This technomancer has NO armor form, no shield and no attack.

Armor CF, yeah, that's very useful. With decent rating, you get twice the damage soak pool, much more useful than Medic CF in this regard because you don't get hit in the first place. And once your CM is completely shot, you fold and drop unconscious.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Feb 9 2012, 03:21 PM

QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Feb 9 2012, 07:31 AM)

Armor CF, yeah, that's very useful. With decent rating, you get twice the damage soak pool, much more useful than Medic CF in this regard because you don't get hit in the first place. And once your CM is completely shot, you fold and drop unconscious.

Shield is better than Armor. If you don't get hit, you don't have to soak damage.

RdMarquis

Feb 10 2012, 12:27 AM

Would I need maxed out Charisma, then? That only boosts my Biofeedback Filter, right? A rating 6 Shield would give me 15 dice to defend in matrix combat.

UmaroVI

Feb 10 2012, 02:14 AM

You're a technoshaman - it also affects your ability to soak Fade which is very important. It also increases your maximum number of registered sprites, which is another important thing.