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Ezra
Right, so I now have a shaman in my party, and he insists on using multiple spirits, to basically confuse anything I throw at them.

(He's not stacking confusions or anything, he is just forever running around with 5 Force 5 spirits just waiting to confuse anything awakened, or anything he attacks, or anything he just plain doesn't like.)

How do you guys combat this? At the moment, I am letting them bump into mages capable of zapping off a Manabolt that takes the spirit down, but is there any other way?

Is there some rule I am missing here? I mean, it gets really rather annoying when the main Bad Guy I have running at the players suddenly gets a +5 to all his actions, without the benefit of a resistance check or something.

So, am I missing the boat completely here, or is this possibly the most horrible power in the game?
Nikoli
Isn't there a limit to the number of spirits one can have at any given time?

Don't any actions taken by a spirit under control of a shaman leave that shaman's astral signature all over the target?

Garland
Um, 1 spirit per domain, right? Start enforcing those domains.
Nikoli
Also, msot won't cross domains. And you can only have like what, 1 great form at any one time?
The White Dwarf
Ok Im going to assume that youve already been over the obvious crap like the charisma number of spirits and only 1 per domain etc etc. Which basically means hes using 5 force 5 great forms; or summoning 1, having it confuse, forfieting services to make another to also confuse, etc.

In either case, he can obviously conjure with ease on the spot multiple times. Using wards etc to block the spirits will not solve the issue.

Instead youll need to stop the ability to conjure at will without consequence. Orchestrate your runs to take place in areas with background count, such as a building that was just refurbished from a fire disaster (makes a good excuse to hit it since security will be lower while construction goes on, but also a good excuse to have background count, etc). This will make the task harder, and cause more drain, making them think before acting. Also, consider having the enemies use a grenade (even a stun one is ok) or gas chemical weapon or other ae effect. The goal here is to hit the sham without really specifical targeting him (which is kinda lame) to tag a small wound, raising his tns 1 or 2.

If hes forfiting services youll have to add background count since it affects the drain test, otherwise wound modifers will help. Failing that an enemy shaman with banishing and spiritblast is about all you can do. Confusion isnt exactly the most balanced ability =/
Smiley
I feel your pain. Having an PC with regiments of spirits is a major pain in the dick.
Wraithkin
Just be happy they aren't using compulsion. Nothing like having one of your bad guys shoot another bad guy, and you not have any say about it. I recently went through this as a player, and I was lucky the dice hated me. Otherwise, we would have had at least one dead member of the team on our hands.

Blood magic = Scary
Wounded Ronin
The most fun is a hermetic mage who walks around with like 6 rating 6 elementals in his back pocket.
Nemo
There is a spell called Spirit Wall who blocks all spirits and their powers, have an enemy mage with this spell
Abstruse
If he's using the summon - confusion - discard - summon - confustion - discard etc. trick, then you can have the spirits themselves get ticked at him/her. Remember, unlike Elementals, Spirits are (for the most part) intellent creatures who can converse and feel. And wouldn't you get ticked off if your work called every couple of hours, asked you to do one simple thing, then send you home, then find out they're doing the same thing to all your friends over and over and over and over again? Next time he/she summons a spirit, have it go on a tirade about how it was busy making cookies or something and this is the 9th time he's been called this week and so on.

The Abstruse One
Crusher Bob
Elementals are mostly self limiting because of the cost required to conjure them, not to mention the 6 meter circle you need... You can double check the exact summong times, it may take a spirit until the beginging of next turn to arrive, or something like that, plenty of bullets can fly in that time. Also, the act of summoning probably leaves an astral signature...
tisoz
QUOTE (Abstruse)
If he's using the summon - confusion - discard - summon - confustion - discard etc. trick, then you can have the spirits themselves get ticked at him/her. Remember, unlike Elementals, Spirits are (for the most part) intellent creatures who can converse and feel. And wouldn't you get ticked off if your work called every couple of hours, asked you to do one simple thing, then send you home, then find out they're doing the same thing to all your friends over and over and over and over again? Next time he/she summons a spirit, have it go on a tirade about how it was busy making cookies or something and this is the 9th time he's been called this week and so on.

The Abstruse One

Use that explanation and the next thing that will happen is the shaman starts befriending these spirits, they become contacts and buddies and start helping him without even being conjured.
Abstruse
Spirits are commanded by the PC, but they're CONTROLLED by the PC. And you can't buy contacts after chargen. Therefore, if the GM doesn't want the PC having spirit contacts, he doesn't have any. Also, they wouldn't "come help without being summoned", they're minding their own business on their own metaplane.

The Abstruse One
Kagetenshi
A properly chargen-equipped Hermetic with a good Face on the team can expect to have elementals aplenty on call. All it really takes is some extra negotiation for costs of materials.

~J
tisoz
QUOTE (Abstruse)
Spirits are commanded by the PC, but they're CONTROLLED by the PC. And you can't buy contacts after chargen. Therefore, if the GM doesn't want the PC having spirit contacts, he doesn't have any. Also, they wouldn't "come help without being summoned", they're minding their own business on their own metaplane.

The Abstruse One

My point is if you pulled crap like that with me, I'd be inclined to use your reasoning to my benefit.

But it seems, you as GM get to play by another set of rules. No player in your game gets a contact if they didn't start with it?
Arethusa
No, he's saying no one can buy contacts after char gen. If you want contacts once the game starts, you do it like we normal people do and talk to people.

Anyway, simple fix for confusion is to either make it non cumulative or add a resistance check. Not that that fixes the larger issue of dragging around a mess of spirits or elementals.
Abstruse
Yeah, and you try to "use my reasoning against me" when my reasoning's based on information in the books while yours is pulled out of your ass, and when my reasoning is used to counteract a one-trick-pony PC who keeps doing the same exact thing over and over and over again just so he can "win the game" instead of role playing. My solution wasn't based on number or figures or nerfing the power or enforcing some archaic optional rule that only appears in one adventure book printed ten years ago, it's an in-character, in-game attempt to solve a probem of a PC doing something a character in the game universe would've gotten smacked for that's supported by evidence in several sourcebooks as well as the core rulebook.

The Abstruse One
Cain
Umm.. extinguish.gif

Guys? He said that the shaman is "always running around with 5 spirits". That either means they're all great form, or Ezra isn't aware of the Domain limitation. If they're all great form, Ezra's SOL, and needs to start enforcing the Invoking rules a bit more-- the drain should keep the guy in check. Also, setting it so that combat encounters happen right after dusk or dawn will slow down the character a lot.

If they're low-force great forms, then the power is much easier to resist. If they're higher-force great forms, the drain should be problematic.
tisoz
QUOTE (Abstruse)
my reasoning's based on information in the books while yours is pulled out of your ass

Uhm, think about your solution and think about the different views said book has about spirits and try telling me again how your solution is
QUOTE
supported by evidence in several sourcebooks as well as the core rulebook.

IMO, you are exceeding anything I've ever read.
QUOTE (Arethusa)
No, he's saying no one can buy contacts after char gen. If you want contacts once the game starts, you do it like we normal people do and talk to people.

And how is that different than talking to the spirits and gaining them as contacts? He is the one endowing them with contact like qualities, but those qualities are only supposed to apply as he wishes? If he says so. ohplease.gif

This power has been around since the game was created. If it was so broken, why hasn't it been fixed?

In a current game, the GM is telling me Great form spirits count against the one spirit per domain limit, meaning no 2 great form sea spirits at the same time. Have I been misreading this all along?
shadd4d
Great forms can cross domain lines. You can therefore have a stock of them equal to your charisma. That's in the rules.

I'm not sure if removing yourself from a domain constitutes giving up the services of the spirit for Great forms. I'm basing this off of something I've seen in a published adventure, when an extraction target is secretly a shaman and has 3 great forms from Sky, hearth, and city on tap to save her when the runners hand her over to the Johnson.

Bonus point if you can tell me which adventure I'm talking about.

Don
tisoz
QUOTE (shadd4d)
Great forms can cross domain lines. You can therefore have a stock of them equal to your charisma. That's in the rules.

Right, but can you have multiple great forms from the same domain? I always thought you could, it was only limited by charisma.
shadd4d
The way I've run it is, great forms extend their domain; you can't leave it. So you can't have multiples of the same spirit but you can have multiple, if differing, spirits. Makes invoking one heck of a technique for shamans. This decision is also supported by the aforementioned adventure.

Don
durthang
Another thing you may want to consider is how much attention is this shame attracting with 5 great form spirits following him around? Perhaps he catches the attention of some individual or group that the team would prefer didn't know they existed.

I'm not very familiar with the summoning and spirit rules in SR, but it's my understanding that a shaman looses their spirits at sunrise/sunset. To maintain five spirits, this shaman is going to have to be doing alot of summoning. With all of that spirit activity, the character could very easily draw the attention of a more malevolent spirit.

I think either of those ideas could easily be turned into adventure quality plots, and convince the player that keeping so many greatforms around all the time is not the best idea.
Berzerker
Tutor should come visit him with some helpful tips smile.gif.
Arethusa
QUOTE (tisoz @ Jun 10 2004, 07:08 AM)
QUOTE (Arethusa)
No, he's saying no one can buy contacts after char gen. If you want contacts once the game starts, you do it like we normal people do and talk to people.

And how is that different than talking to the spirits and gaining them as contacts? He is the one endowing them with contact like qualities, but those qualities are only supposed to apply as he wishes? If he says so. ohplease.gif

Uhm, I imagine it's different because those spirits will most likely want nothing to do with the shaman? This is the kind of thing that comes down to heavy roleplaying, and if you get a contact that way, I imagine you deserve it.

Anyway, watch the hostilities. This is completely unwarranted.
ShadowGhost
Also keep in mind commanding a spirit is a simple action. 5 spirits - 5 simple actions to command each one to do something (assuming different command for each, otherwise 1 simple action to command all 5 to do the same thing).

Spirits must be Materialized (existing on the Physical Plane) to use many of their powers, even Mana-based like Confusion. If the spirit is in astral only, it cannot affect anyone/anything on the Physical Plane, just like spellcasting - you can only affect something in the plane you are on.

Materializing is a complex action - the spirit can do nothing until it's next turn - this leaves it open to attack.

Force 5 spirit? Vulnerable to any weapon that inflicts damage with a base power of 11+... Defiance T-250 with EX ammo (11S): Franchi SPAS 22 with EX ammo, Burstfire (15D): Ruger SuperWarhawk with EX Ammo (12M), IPE grenades (15M, 16S). And since Grenades can take out more than one, you have lots of options.

Also, SpiritBall and SpiritBlast work wonderfully against spirits.
Arethusa
Just to clarify, that force 5 spirit with 10 points of hardened armor could defeat, say, an assault rifle burst, even though the burst weighs in at 11S. Hardened armor counts against power of the attack, unmodified by burst fire.
Ezra
QUOTE (Cain)
Guys?  He said that the shaman is "always running around with 5 spirits".  That either means they're all great form, or Ezra isn't aware of the Domain limitation.  If they're all great form, Ezra's SOL, and needs to start enforcing the Invoking rules a bit more-- the drain should keep the guy in check.  Also, setting it so that combat encounters happen right after dusk or dawn will slow down the character a lot. 

If they're low-force great forms, then the power is much easier to resist.  If they're higher-force great forms, the drain should be problematic.

Ha. I think I have found the problem.

Erm...the shaman wasn't running about with 5 spirits with him all the time. Rather, he was summoning 5 spirits in the domain, and then having them go.

It appears that I misread the line on Pg 184 of the BBB.
"A Shaman can only summon one nature spirit in any given domain." embarrassed.gif
You see, I read it that he could only summon one kind of spirit in any given domain. But I see from your postings here guys that he should only be getting one spirit per domain. Period.

(And all of a sudden, the example given on Pg 184 also makes sense.)

Thanks all, apologies for my stuff-up.
TinkerGnome
Unless they're great form spirits, of course wink.gif Then he can summon as many as he has the charisma for. The broken thing about confusion is that there isn't a resistance roll, really. It automaticly affects you.
JaronK
Wait, why isn't there a resistance roll? I assumed this power was like the Confusion spell, in that opponents could make some form of willpower save. Is this not the case?

JaronK
TinkerGnome
Nope. Not by canon. The only roll involved with the spell is a willpower roll to perform actions once you've been affected by it.
The White Dwarf
This is why I said way back on page one like the 3rd response, that I presume its all great forms. Since Confusion has no resist test its easy to get like 3-5 great forms to confuse everything for +2 or +3 with little drain consequence; and shift the battle accordingly. And again, presuming its a good team, you can summon everything and issue the orders before the fight, and then have the spirits move out in the surprise round. And theres little the GM can do.

So, should you find that situation, consider what I said regarding run locations and background count. Or suffer the wrath of cheese +4 tn mods on all your npcs.
Kagetenshi
We're still on the first page nyahnyah.gif

~J
Fireside
By canon, there are no rules for spirit powers.

"The game mechanics given for the powers below are not intended as hard and fast rules, but as guidelines for the gamemaster."
-p262, SR3

I always allow resistance rolls vs spirit powers, because they are brokenly overpowered otherwise.
snowRaven
Critters, pg.6-7:
"The game mechanics given for the following powers are intended as guidelines for the gamemaster. Players should never be absolutely certain of the capabilities of a paranormal opponent; there is always a chance a power might work slightly differently from critter to critter. (Uncertainty is a wonderful dramatic tool.) Because elementals and nature spirits can be summoned by player characters, however, their powers are more detailed and should remain as consistent as possible." (emphasis mine)

Ways to counter the power:
- Victim moves out of the domain
- Situate battle in a Toxic domain (read T:Wastelands section on toxics - alot of corp compounds are considered 'toxic')
- Background count to make conjuring more difficult
- Spirits or astral mages among opposition - they'll target the spirits as soon as they show up.
- Send Tutor to visit the shaman (see the original Threats)
- Mana storm
- The old 'geek the mage first' trick
- Use their trick against them before they have the chance...

Also, if I recall correctly astral barriers impede the spirit's ability to affect the target (can't look up in what way now) so have the bad guy have a personal barrier, or stand behind one...

Speaking of problems with spirits, the new group of characters I'm GMing for has the potential to have 16 elementals on call, max force varying from 6 to 12... Thank God they didn't choose to create shamans! grinbig.gif
Kagetenshi
Meh, hermetics are better. Have a single shaman for versatility, but it's all about the elementals.

~J
danbot37
also remeber shamans are bound to an ideal of their totem. His totem may see the use of several spirits as abuse and curb his power. Another thing you might consider is some kind of house rule for 'spirit addiction' similar to foci addiction just not as harsh. After all, power corrupts, right?
tisoz
QUOTE (danbot37)
also remeber shamans are bound to an ideal of their totem.  His totem may see the use of several spirits as abuse and curb his power.

Wouldn't that be largely a house rule also? Most totems give a bonus for conjuring a type of spirit, seems it would be more displeased if you ignored this power.

QUOTE (Arethusa Posted: Jun 10 2004 @ 12:15 PM)

Anyway, watch the hostilities. This is completely unwarranted.

Your warning after quoting me (so I assume directed at me) about being hostile is likewise unwarranted.

QUOTE (ShadowGhost Posted: Jun 10 2004 @ 12:48 PM)

Materializing is a complex action - the spirit can do nothing until it's next turn - this leaves it open to attack.

Unless there is some erratta I'm unaware of, it's a simple action (SR3, p264), but you have the right idea. It takes a Simple action to command, another simple action for the spirit to Materialize, and a complex action to use Confusion.

Cain
QUOTE
Wouldn't that be largely a house rule also?

Not really. The BBB gives some suggestions for this very thing. p 163.
tisoz
I would have to disagree. I am aware of totem ideals. None of them say limit your conjuring. I went through all of them in the BBB and I don't see how doing a LOT of conjuring (or sorcery for that matter) could contradict any of the ideals.

That's why I am saying one would have to broaden the interpretation of a totem ideal to limit magic use, conjuring in particular. That broadening of the interpretation sounds like a house rule to me.
ShadowGhost
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (ShadowGhost Posted: Jun 10 2004 @ 12:48 PM)

Materializing is a complex action - the spirit can do nothing until it's next turn - this leaves it open to attack.

Unless there is some erratta I'm unaware of, it's a simple action (SR3, p264), but you have the right idea. It takes a Simple action to command, another simple action for the spirit to Materialize, and a complex action to use Confusion.

Correct (I was thinking returning from astral to the body, which is even worse - you have no actions until the next initiative).

Since a Spirit cannot Materialize and Confuse in the same action - it's vulnerable until it's next action. Either geek the spirit, or the shaman.

There's also Spirit Barrier to block spirits and their powers, or reduce the effects if the force of the spirit is greater than the spell.

Also, having your own spirit with Guard on you helps block/reduce the effects of enemy spirits from using their powers on you.
Cain
QUOTE (tisoz @ Jun 10 2004, 11:07 PM)
I would have to disagree.  I am aware of totem ideals.  None of them say limit your conjuring.  I went through all of them in the BBB and I don't see how doing a LOT of conjuring (or sorcery for that matter) could contradict any of the ideals.

That's why I am saying one would have to broaden the interpretation of a totem ideal to limit magic use, conjuring in particular.  That broadening of the interpretation sounds like a house rule to me.

He said "curb his power", not "curb his conjuring". The totem might disapprove of the way a shaman is treating spirits, and take away a point of magic. That's perfectly by-the-book. The same page also suggests losing totem bonuses first, so the totem could start by removing the conjuring dice first. That's perfectly canon as well.
tisoz
How do you get from "conjuring several spirits" to "mistreating spirits"? Making that leap to justify breaking a totem ideal sounds like a house rule to me. I would rather the GM just come out and say the power is too powerful and make an actual house rule. Or just ask the player to curb his use of the power. Either beats trying to justify what sounds like a contrivance.
Alania
I dont have the books with me right now ..afair that kind of massing great Form Spirits is already greatly limited by strict enforcing of the rules already given.

You can summon Great Forms and they can cross into other domains...so far so good
but at least afair ..the thing that spirit powers for the most part are domain limited still applies ...so great form spirit leaves its domain ...great form spirit looses its ability to confuse or whatever.
Cain
QUOTE (tisoz)
How do you get from "conjuring several spirits" to "mistreating spirits"? Making that leap to justify breaking a totem ideal sounds like a house rule to me.

Depends on the totem. It's perfectly concieveable that a totem may not appreciate how a shaman simply conjures up spirits flippantly. It's one thing to do a lot of conjuring, it's another to fire them off assembly-line style. If someone's switching domains willy-nilly, he's probably just barking off orders and not showing the proper respect.

If this only happens occasionally, I wouldn't have any problem with it. But if a player is is flipping through domains faster than a bored twelve-year-old with a turbo TV remote, I think the totem might be willing to express some disapproval.
Inquisitus
Personally, I like the tee-ing off the spirits angle. You could have fun with it, even if you allow your team to form friendships with the spirit (personally I wouldn't, but it's your call). Besides, spirits are from a different plane of existence... who's to say that the mountain spirirt knows that hugging its shaman too hard could have some adverse effects wink.gif ...
Necro Tech
Just one quick question, I assume the shaman in question has a pretty sizeable power focus or multiple spirit focuses. Soaking 5M drain multiple times a round with (or even every round) only charisma is rough. Even at the elven 8 the odds are seriously against you.

P.S. your bad guys can also go after the ever present glowing foci to keep them from being used. Also stun, gas peper punch give auto modifiers to the mage even if the damage is soaked.
Cain
One more thing. According to my reading, a rigger who's outside the domain is immune to the Confusion power. That means his drones are as well. Drones can be hurt by other powers, but not Confusion.
Dax
The odd thing is that FASA kinda gave us DM's a tool for dealing with this kinda problem back when they were still around. In Threats 1, there was a chapter on a creature known as Tutor.

Tutor is a Force 10 Great Form Spirit who is obsessed with "Protecting the Denisiens of the Astral Plane from Magely abusement."

In our group he took an extreme dislikeing of out Hermetic Mage for the simple reason that the mage got angry when one of his Elementals was delayed in arriving. So, if you feel that your Shaman/Mage is abusing his spirits/elmentals, just throw his bad boy at them.

Tutor Great Form Spirit
Force Rating: 10
Spirit Energy: 6
Powers: Astral Gateway, Aura Masking, Dispelling, Human Form, Possession, Sorcery, Spirt Tap

He has no true stats outside that beacuse its up for the DM to give him their specific touch. Though he is supposed to be "the most powerful spirit the PC's will ever encounter". He is the Lowfyr of the Astral Plane to put it mildly. Enjoy.
Aesir
It seems this thread has served itīs purpose already. But Iīd still like to say a few things. Several greater form spirits of the same domain can in fact be controled at the same time. MitS page 107: "great form nature spirits do not count toward the shamanīs limit of one spirit per domain". This is a good thing because you whant your toxic shaman villain to be able to send a small army of toxic manitous after the characters once in a wile.

Having 5 great form nature spirits hanging around your sholders, using their confusion power on any enemies come your way, would be a terrible waste. Since they can all use their powers simultaneously on a number of targets equal to their force; if they were all force 4, the shaman would have to be attacked by a group of 20 people for it to make any sense. A clever shaman could use these spirits in countless much more effective ways.

In order to create this army of super-menaces the shaman would have to make 5 regular conjuring success tests, 5 invocing success tests against TN force*2 (- init. grade), 5 regular drain resistance tests and 5 drain resistance tests against TN force*2 (-init. grade). Now thatīs not something you do every day. And if a player insisted on doing it every day in my game, taking stim patches for the drain or whatever; I would give that players character cronic stress syndromes or something.
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