I think apathy has my side of the case down. I will say that I use a more organic method for regeneration in my game. I will also say that regenerating creatures in my game are feared. They are stpically very intelligent, and do not rely on their regeneration to survive, they typically try to avoid damage anyway.
Regeneration in my house rules works this way... Take a creature's current body and add 10. This number represents the amount of damage it actuallt takes to kill a metahuman. Take that number and divide it by the number of passes in a round. This is how many boxes of damage a creature regenerates per pass.
Vampires who are low on essence regenerate slower than a vamp full on essence, and a Dzoo Noo Qua regenerates at a hellacious speed, being a troll.
If you dont want to get killed by a regenerating creature, then either prepare well ahead, or don't fight one.
I would like to add, that in canon a vulnerability does *not* stop regeneration. it just helps the creature get to D damage sooner. By the rules, vamps can walk in the sun and take a box of damage once a minute and it goes away almost instantly. looks like a sunburn, if that. Vampires are unholy nasty.
Full Version: Shapeshifter Adepts
Never mind, I was reading only the immediate rules, not the complete rules under a different heading.
I don't consider them to be unbalanced die to low starting attributes and skills.
An average, mundane, starting character with cyberware can beat a shapeshifter to death easily.
Shapeshifters are very vulnerable to silver. Weapons made from Silver, or coated with silver receive a +2 to the power + 1 to the Damage Level. They would also automatically cause an additional Light Wound on contact.
Simple silver plated shot or flechettes will do wonders. And silver plating is easy, and cheap. Even high school kids can silver plate stuff.
Two bursts from a shotgun with silverplated shot/flechettes does 13 D+. If the first burst doesn't put it to deadly, the second one will. End of Shapeshifter.
Armor doesn't change with forms, and splitting Physical Attribute Points between human and animal forms isn't going to leave it with huge body or combat pool to roll the damage off with.
And under the choke rules, it's easy to get low TNs to hit with.
An average, mundane, starting character with cyberware can beat a shapeshifter to death easily.
Shapeshifters are very vulnerable to silver. Weapons made from Silver, or coated with silver receive a +2 to the power + 1 to the Damage Level. They would also automatically cause an additional Light Wound on contact.
Simple silver plated shot or flechettes will do wonders. And silver plating is easy, and cheap. Even high school kids can silver plate stuff.
Two bursts from a shotgun with silverplated shot/flechettes does 13 D+. If the first burst doesn't put it to deadly, the second one will. End of Shapeshifter.
Armor doesn't change with forms, and splitting Physical Attribute Points between human and animal forms isn't going to leave it with huge body or combat pool to roll the damage off with.
And under the choke rules, it's easy to get low TNs to hit with.
| QUOTE |
| Two bursts from a shotgun with silverplated shot/flechettes does 13 D+. If the first burst doesn't put it to deadly, the second one will. End of Shapeshifter. |
Only if the shapeshifter rolls that 1 on 1d6. Also the shapeshifter should be wearing armor and all that goodness, since there's really no reason to ever shoft out of human form. Remember, silver does do extra damage, but it doesn't in any way by the rules written stop regeneration.
| QUOTE |
| Armor doesn't change with forms, and splitting Physical Attribute Points between human and animal forms isn't going to leave it with huge body or combat pool to roll the damage off with. |
yeah, but theres no mechanical reason to put anything but 1's in it's animal attributes nor for it ever to shapeshift into an animal. So it's free to wear all the armor it feels like. It's animal form may as well be vestigal.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| I hope I'm not mis-quoting either one of you, but I don't think BitBasher's saying that his opinion is specifically stated in canon. |
*hmm*
Look at this:
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| In 3rd edition if you read the description of Regeneration it says it regenerates "damage". It no longer says "Physical Damage" like it did in 2nd edition. Stun Damage is damage, and Physical Damage is damage. It regenerates all damage. |
That pretty much sounds like it's canon ...
Note that my initial remark dealt with the Stun part ... The potential non-regeneration below D physical was just a sidenote.
| QUOTE |
| I thought he indicated that the wording is sufficiently vague that it could be interpreted either way, and that his interpretation might make sense given the context of the overall uber-ness of regeneration. |
That's one possible interpretation
But not the only one. My point is that it's not that "clear", as the initial answers (not only from BitBasher) indicated.
| QUOTE |
| By Cochise's interpretation, Vamps and Shifters aren't much of a threat - you can drop 'em with a single stunbolt and be finished before the end of a combat turn. |
a) That's not "my" interpretation. It's one possible interpretation.
b) You can take down all other beings with a stunbolt as well.
I don't really think that denying stun to be regenerated really removes the threat such critters do represent.
___________
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| I think apathy has my side of the case down. I will say that I use a more organic method for regeneration in my game. |
*g* Take a guess why I initially wrote: "Note: I'm not necessarily using these rules as I'm going to show now, but that doesn't change the fact that they can be interpreted in several ways."
| QUOTE |
| I will also say that regenerating creatures in my game are feared. |
Same is true for my games, although they I don't let them regenerate Stun Damage.
| QUOTE |
| They are stpically very intelligent, and do not rely on their regeneration to survive, they typically try to avoid damage anyway. |
So the question if Stun is regenerated or not, should actually be nor real problem!?
| QUOTE |
| I would like to add, that in canon a vulnerability does *not* stop regeneration. it just helps the creature get to D damage sooner. By the rules, vamps can walk in the sun and take a box of damage once a minute and it goes away almost instantly. looks like a sunburn, if that. Vampires are unholy nasty. |
Sunlight is still an Allergy for vampires ... but Allergies do not prevent regeneration either ...
Interestingly enough I expected that you'd use the Companion rules at least for the justification of automatical healing below D level (Stun still being a different discussion):
| QUOTE (SRComp @ p. 37) |
| Shapeshifters only suffer the effects of wounds caused by silver until the beginning of the next Combat Turn, as with other damage (see Regeneration, p. 36). |
Because here it more or less really says that all wounds are regenerated instantly. Problem here: The reference to p. 36 brings us back to the previously debated problems of multible interpretations. So although this might sound as if all wounds are regenerated, it's still possible to interpret the rules on p. 36 as the limiting factor to this rule.
_____________
| QUOTE (ShadowGhost) |
| I don't consider them to be unbalanced die to low starting attributes and skills. |
The problem also exists for NPC-shifters that have very different rules (especially those constantly by the shifters Essence improved physical attributes easily bring NPC shifters in areas where they even beat above average trolls ...
| QUOTE |
| An average, mundane, starting character with cyberware can beat a shapeshifter to death easily. |
How? You have to constantly force him to make a regen roll. That's a 1 in 6 chance every time it occurs.
| QUOTE |
| Shapeshifters are very vulnerable to silver. Weapons made from Silver, or coated with silver receive a +2 to the power + 1 to the Damage Level. They would also automatically cause an additional Light Wound on contact. |
And all that is still regenerated normally.
Problem however: I do not see Runners too often bringing along silver weapons. Normally the encounter with such a being is not planned.
| QUOTE |
| Two bursts from a shotgun with silverplated shot/flechettes does 13 D+. If the first burst doesn't put it to deadly, the second one will. End of Shapeshifter. |
Nope ... Both times he'll take his die and roll ... on a 1 or 2 he's dead. Otherwise he'll simply stand up again.
| QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jun 16 2004, 10:47 PM) |
| Only if the shapeshifter rolls that 1 on 1d6. Also the shapeshifter should be wearing armor and all that goodness, since there's really no reason to ever shoft out of human form. Remember, silver does do extra damage, but it doesn't in any way by the rules written stop regeneration. |
Actually it's a one or a two on the regeneration roll with Damage from silver. And Karma doesn't apply to this roll. So it's a one in three chance it dies permanently.
If you still have actions, pin it to the ground with a sword/spear/knife. It will regenerate with a weapon still stuck inside it, causing instant wounds.
Not to mention, Regeneration only heals wounds - it doesn't spit out the silver-plated rounds already buried in it's flesh. It may regenerate, but the silver-plated shot inside its flesh cause automatic light wounds right off the bat.
All you need is 10 little pieces of silver plated shot still stuck inside the shapeshifter and it will keep dropping dead every time it regenerates. 10 Automatic light wounds tend to do that.
This may be more of an issue with vicious blow than shifters, but if you don't let shifters regenerate stun damage, consider the following scenario:
Physad (purely for plausibility purposes) with vicious blow versus shifter.
Round 1: Physad beats the shifter to death with his bare hands, using vicious blow. Shifter does not roll a 1, is perfectly fine at the beginning of...
Round 2: Physad beats the shifter into unconsciousness using his bare hands, not using vicious blow. Shifter remains unconscious, can now be torched at earliest convenience.
Does something seem ever slightly so odd with this picture?
Physad (purely for plausibility purposes) with vicious blow versus shifter.
Round 1: Physad beats the shifter to death with his bare hands, using vicious blow. Shifter does not roll a 1, is perfectly fine at the beginning of...
Round 2: Physad beats the shifter into unconsciousness using his bare hands, not using vicious blow. Shifter remains unconscious, can now be torched at earliest convenience.
Does something seem ever slightly so odd with this picture?
Of course not. It's perfectly reasonable... somehow.
Punch a shapeshifter in the face and he goes down for the count. Punch a shapeshifter in the face with a katar and he's completely unphased three seconds later.
Hit a shapeshifter in the face with a mace, and he's toast. Hit a shapeshifter in the face with a mace that has some spikes thrown on and he's completely unphased three seconds later.
Shoot a shapeshifter with a gel round and he's out of the picture. Shoot a shapeshifter with an explosive round, and he's completely unphased three seconds later.
Throw a concussion grenade near a shapeshifter and he's all but kicked the bucket. Throw an IPE offensive grenade near a shapeshifter and he's dusting off the debris three seconds later.
It's all completely logical.
Punch a shapeshifter in the face and he goes down for the count. Punch a shapeshifter in the face with a katar and he's completely unphased three seconds later.
Hit a shapeshifter in the face with a mace, and he's toast. Hit a shapeshifter in the face with a mace that has some spikes thrown on and he's completely unphased three seconds later.
Shoot a shapeshifter with a gel round and he's out of the picture. Shoot a shapeshifter with an explosive round, and he's completely unphased three seconds later.
Throw a concussion grenade near a shapeshifter and he's all but kicked the bucket. Throw an IPE offensive grenade near a shapeshifter and he's dusting off the debris three seconds later.
It's all completely logical.
| QUOTE (Cochise) |
| Nope ... Both times he'll take his die and roll ... on a 1 or 2 he's dead. Otherwise he'll simply stand up again. |
Actually, it's a simple action to stand up. Doesn't leave it with much options to do anything in the first initiative pass.
Leaving you plenty of time to aim, shoot; shoot. Reload. Repeat as necessary.
| QUOTE (ShadowGhost) |
| Actually it's a one or a two on the regeneration roll with Damage from silver. And Karma doesn't apply to this roll. So it's a one in three chance it dies permanently. |
Again, this is arguable, since:
| QUOTE (SRComp @ p. 37) |
| Note that Karma cannot be used on the Regeneration Test, unless the gamemaster allows the Hand of God rule (p. 248, SR3). Shapeshifters can regenerate in both human and animal form. Note that these rules do not apply to damage from silver weapons( see Silver Allergy / Vunerability, below) |
| QUOTE |
| If you still have actions, pin it to the ground with a sword/spear/knife. It will regenerate with a weapon still stuck inside it, causing instant wounds. |
Something that is not encompassed by the SR Damage rules ...
| QUOTE |
| Not to mention, Regeneration only heals wounds - it doesn't spit out the silver-plated rounds already buried in it's flesh. It may regenerate, but the silver-plated shot inside its flesh cause automatic light wounds right off the bat. |
And where do you suggest that the silver goes, when the body regenerates?
Not to mention the fact that this is yet another part that is not encompassed by the SR rules.
Even worse: Cyberware is explicity purged from a shifters body when regernation works ...
| QUOTE |
| All you need is 10 little pieces of silver plated shot still stuck inside the shapeshifter and it will keep dropping dead every time it regenerates. 10 Automatic light wounds tend to do that. |
... Thus it's very safe to assume that your little 10 pieces of silver will be purged as well ...
Not to mention the other fact that there's no way of telling if these 10 pieces are really to be considered different sources for the allergy (Thirs part that isn't encompassed by the SR rules) ...
Otherwise I could say that a shifter who's bathed in silver dust, takes hundreds of millions of light wounds ...
| QUOTE (ShadowGhost) | ||
Actually, it's a simple action to stand up. Doesn't leave it with much options to do anything in the first initiative pass. Leaving you plenty of time to aim, shoot; shoot. Reload. Repeat as necessary. |
Quickdraw and fire a weapon, ect.. he still has options. it is not cut and dry "I'll pop off and die now, thanks!".
For the rest I agree with Cochise. The fact the cyberware is explicitly ejected is a precedent that all other things would be too.
| QUOTE (SRComp @ p. 37) |
| Note that Karma cannot be used on the Regeneration Test, unless the gamemaster allows the Hand of God rule (p. 248, SR3). Shapeshifters can regenerate in both human and animal form. Note that these rules do not apply to damage from silver weapons( see Silver Allergy / Vunerability, below) |
Maybe you should finish reading the page.
Under Silver Allergy/Vulnerability:
"If a shapeshifter takes Deadly damage from a silver weapon or accumulates Deadly damage from a combination of silver and non-silver weapons, roll 1D6; on a result of 1 or 2 the character fails to regenerate and dies immediately."
Even *if* it purges the silver shot upon regeneration, once can assume the shot isn't spit away from the body, and with multiple pieces of silver shot touching it, it still takes at least a light wound, if not more from being touch by several pieces in different places...
"The mere touch {of silver} causes pain and burn like welts. A shifter bathed in silver dust would have the same effect as 3 degree burns covering an entire humans body - pain and burn-like welts covering every inch of skin. Sounds like a Deadly wound to me.
As for the Hand of God Rule - that applies to all, including the puny mage with a 2 body who is ripped to shreds with an 18D Panther Assault Cannon with 8 successes.
But it's only good once - the character burns all Karma and Good Karma to invoke this. To use a second time requires a minimum of 1 Karma Pool point.
The second time there's no Karma left to use. And a street sam waiting for you to try and stand up when you regenerate again.
Shapeshifters are tough. But not invulnerable. And slow as hell if they dump everything into human form. Their max initiative is Reaction 7 + 1D6 for a max of 13. One action to get up and ready weapon - if they find it - chances are it they dropped it when they took a deadly wound.
And once they're down, a WP grenade will work nicely. It keeps burning for 15 combat turns, inflicting damage every turn (10L, reduce by 1/2 impact armor), setting off any ammo and explosives worn by the shapeshifte.
| QUOTE (Person 404) |
| Does something seem ever slightly so odd with this picture? |
Yes, it looks odd to a certain extend. Then again it has something to do with magic ~shrugs~
But SR has lot's of those ...
________
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy) |
| Of course not. It's perfectly reasonable... somehow. |
Irony doesn't save the day
| QUOTE |
| Punch a shapeshifter in the face and he goes down for the count. Punch a shapeshifter in the face with a katar and he's completely unphased three seconds later. Hit a shapeshifter in the face with a mace, and he's toast. Hit a shapeshifter in the face with a mace that has some spikes thrown on and he's completely unphased three seconds later. Shoot a shapeshifter with a gel round and he's out of the picture. Shoot a shapeshifter with an explosive round, and he's completely unphased three seconds later. Throw a concussion grenade near a shapeshifter and he's all but kicked the bucket. Throw an IPE offensive grenade near a shapeshifter and he's dusting off the debris three seconds later. |
Take a heavy crossbow and call a shot against the head => target receives full armor under cannon rules => victim resists at TN 6S - armor + successes
ow poison the arrow, call the shot again => Chose bypass armor => target doesn't receive armor not even the one that is worn there => victim resists vs TN 6S + Damage of the used poison (possibly staged through successes) ...
| QUOTE |
| It's all completely logical. |
Indeed
___________
| QUOTE (ShadowGhost) |
| Actually, it's a simple action to stand up. Doesn't leave it with much options to do anything in the first initiative pass. |
Shoot while lying on the floor? Quickdraw a gun and return fire? + many more options
| QUOTE |
| Leaving you plenty of time to aim, shoot; shoot. Reload. Repeat as necessary. |
Which also assumes that you beat the shifters initiative and can stay out of hand to hand distance ... A task that might be not to easy to fullfill ...
| QUOTE |
| Maybe you should finish reading the page. |
Be sure that I have done that more than a dozen times
| QUOTE |
| "If a shapeshifter takes Deadly damage from a silver weapon or accumulates Deadly damage from a combination of silver and non-silver weapons, roll 1D6; on a result of 1 or 2 the character fails to regenerate and dies immediately." |
So that says that a shifter instantly dies in this situation, just as a normal character would when taking body +11 boxes of damage. But where does that exclude the use of karmapool?
| QUOTE |
| Even *if* it purges the silver shot upon regeneration, once can assume the shot isn't spit away from the body, and with multiple pieces of silver shot touching it, it still takes at least a light wound, if not more from being touch by several pieces in different places... |
*hmm*
a) gravity sometimes works wonders.
b) There's still no rule that says that multible silver pieces cause multible light wounds ...
| QUOTE |
| "The mere touch {of silver} causes pain and burn like welts. A shifter bathed in silver dust would have the same effect as 3 degree burns covering an entire humans body - pain and burn-like welts covering every inch of skin. Sounds like a Deadly wound to me. |
Can you tell me where you got that from?
| QUOTE |
| Shapeshifters are tough. But not invulnerable. And slow as hell if they dump everything into human form. Their max initiative is Reaction 7 + 1D6 for a max of 13. One action to get up and ready weapon - if they find it - chances are it they dropped it when they took a deadly wound. |
Still only looking at PC-shifters ...
Still not considering that you can shot while lying prone
| QUOTE | ||
So that says that a shifter instantly dies in this situation, just as a normal character would when taking body +11 boxes of damage. But where does that exclude the use of karmapool?" |
"Note that Karma cannot be used on the Regeneration Test, unless the Gamemaster allows the Hand of God Rule"
Sounds pretty self explanatory to me. Regen. test is a one shot roll, Karma cannot be used unless HOG rule applied.
However, Fail to regenerate from Deadly Damage from silver inflicted wounds and the character *dies* immediately. No more Regeneration. No Karma
| QUOTE |
| *hmm* a) gravity sometimes works wonders. b) There's still no rule that says that multible silver pieces cause multible light wounds ... |
Simple common sense. Getting burned in two different places causes two different wounds. Getting burned in 10 different places causes 10 wounds.
| QUOTE |
| "The mere touch {of silver} causes pain and burn like welts." Can you tell me where you got that from? |
SR3 Comp., page 37. Silver Allergy section, second paragraph. Not to mention the willpower 6 test to resist the urge to retreat from the contact with silver.
| QUOTE |
Still only looking at PC-shifters ... Still not considering that you can shot while lying prone |
Certainly... if you have another pistol in a quickdraw holster for quickdraw & fire.... or spend a simple action to ready a weapon that's handy (i.e. knockback didn't send one you had in your hand flying several meters away from you.)
As for Melee range - who said the shooter would stand close? And knockback sends the shifter further away each time.
| QUOTE |
| As for Melee range - who said the shooter would stand close? And knockback sends the shifter further away each time. |
Who said he wouldn;t be close? who said he had to drop his gun? you're playing the what if game, which can be played by both sides and can last forever.
| QUOTE |
| Getting burned in 10 different places causes 10 wounds |
So...If I cut off one of your fingers or toes, you get a light wound, and if I cut off 10 of your fingers and/or toes, you will die.
Hmmm...
I just don't see it.
[edit] Sorry about the sarcasm. I understand that your interpretation is a possibly legitimate one based on the rules as written. I personally don't think it passes the common sense test, so I would interpret it differently, but YMMV.
yeah, SR doesnt work that way. Eat one bullet take one wound, eat 10 rounds at the same time.... take one wound.
| QUOTE (ShadowGhost) |
| Simple silver plated shot or flechettes will do wonders. And silver plating is easy, and cheap. Even high school kids can silver plate stuff. |
Yep. I saw "The Monster Squad"
Very underrated flick, IMHO.
Two things to keep in mind for regeneration:
First, they are healed at the beginning of the next combat turn. If you take a 'shifter down with Deadly damage early enough a combat turn, and you (or a teammate) have additional actions, then you can shoot the 'shifter in the head with an action, or use similar means to dispatch the 'shifter before it fully heals next turn.
Secondly, awakened 'shifters who take Deadly damage still have to make Magic Loss checks, so taking a Deadly wound is not something they should take lightly.
First, they are healed at the beginning of the next combat turn. If you take a 'shifter down with Deadly damage early enough a combat turn, and you (or a teammate) have additional actions, then you can shoot the 'shifter in the head with an action, or use similar means to dispatch the 'shifter before it fully heals next turn.
Secondly, awakened 'shifters who take Deadly damage still have to make Magic Loss checks, so taking a Deadly wound is not something they should take lightly.
| QUOTE (ShadowGhost) |
| Sounds pretty self explanatory to me. Regen. test is a one shot roll, Karma cannot be used unless HOG rule applied. |
Look who hasn't read my prebious answer to that
Read the next two sentences right behind that one and you'll find:
Note that these rules do not apply to damage from silver weapons( see Silver Allergy / Vunerability, below)
So your "pretty self explanatory" rule does not count for wound inflicted with silver weapons.
| QUOTE |
| However, Fail to regenerate from Deadly Damage from silver inflicted wounds and the character *dies* immediately. No more Regeneration. No Karma |
And there's the problem: Fail regen roll, remember that use of Karma is only prohibited for damages from other sources => Use Karma => No instant death ...
| QUOTE |
| Simple common sense. |
I guess not *g*
| QUOTE |
| Getting burned in two different places causes two different wounds. Getting burned in 10 different places causes 10 wounds. |
First of all the damage system of SR doesn't distinguish different places when dealing with damage. Second, BitBahser already showed that in SR you can take 10 bullets but only receive one wound.
Also note that by this logic of yours 10 objects with a surface of 1 square centimeter would do ten times the damage of one objekt with a surface of 10 square centimeters. The amount of touched skin and the resulting skin problems would be the same.
| QUOTE |
| SR3 Comp., page 37. Silver Allergy section, second paragraph. |
I was more intereseted to hear where you got the rest I quoted from. Because that sentence about pain and burns can be interpreted again. There are major differences between superficial burnings (like a sun burn *which has interresting parallels to an allergic skin reaction*) and stronger burning through fire (or ice!).
| QUOTE |
| Certainly... if you have another pistol in a quickdraw holster for quickdraw & fire.... |
"Another"? Where did the first one go? Ah, I see ...
| QUOTE |
| (i.e. knockback didn't send one you had in your hand flying several meters away from you.) |
... but may I inquire which rule says that knockback / knockdown causes a person to lose his / her gun?
| QUOTE |
| As for Melee range - who said the shooter would stand close? |
The question is rather: Who said that he wasn't? Who said that the shifters didn't surprise his opponent?
You're trying to argue on specific cases, that favour the shooter, instead of looking at it globally ...
| QUOTE |
| And knockback sends the shifter further away each time. |
Provided that he really is knocked back.
If he really takes D Damage, he'll drop on the spot (no knockback there). Lower wounds might knock him back, but he can roll against that (and might succeed) ...
_____________
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| First, they are healed at the beginning of the next combat turn. |
Correct ...
| QUOTE |
| If you take a 'shifter down with Deadly damage early enough a combat turn, and you (or a teammate) have additional actions, |
What if situation
What if you don't manage that. What if you don't have additional actions ...| QUOTE |
| then you can shoot the 'shifter in the head with an action, |
And that would change what? He's taking another D wound => He'll have to make another die roll.
| QUOTE |
| or use similar means to dispatch the 'shifter before it fully heals next turn. |
And the severing of specific body parts isn't encompassed by the SR damage rules either ...
| QUOTE |
| Secondly, awakened 'shifters who take Deadly damage still have to make Magic Loss checks, so taking a Deadly wound is not something they should take lightly. |
Provided that it is an awakened shifter in the first place ...
| QUOTE (Cochise) | ||
Sorry, but are you trying to tell me that the third use of the term "result" suddenly includes a reference to something that the whole paragraph didn't deal with? Taking a wound (of any level) is the result of a fully resolved attack (skill test, dodging where applicable and damage resistance). But the whole paragraph doesn't deal with that "result". It only deals with a situation where this "result" is already fact and then provides a rule with a result of its own (rolling a die). This new result is referenced exactly three times. Where would that sudden change of reference come from? Exactly! Nowhere, except when you start interpreting something into that actually is not part of what the whole paragraph deals with. |
The entire paragraph explains the earlier paragraph with specific reference to Regeneration due to Deadly damage. All this and proceeding paragraphs are doing is elaborating on damage and in particular Deadly Damage. The fixation on Deadly Damage is due to the fact that nothing else will stop a Regenerating creature from Regenerating.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| The entire paragraph explains the earlier paragraph with specific reference to Regeneration due to Deadly damage. All this and proceeding paragraphs are doing is elaborating on damage and in particular Deadly Damage. The fixation on Deadly Damage is due to the fact that nothing else will stop a Regenerating creature from Regenerating. |
... The word "result" does still only reference the result of the die roll ~shrugs~
| QUOTE (Cochise) | ||
... The word "result" does still only reference the result of the die roll ~shrugs~ |
A null result is still a result.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| A null result is still a result. |
If you don't roll a die you don't have a result within the reference made in that paragraph => There is no such thing as a "NULL" result in that context.
You're still trying to broaden the reference of the word "result" to something this is not subject of said paragraph ...
| QUOTE (Cochise) | ||
If you don't roll a die you don't have a result within the reference made in that paragraph => There is no such thing as a "NULL" result in that context. You're still trying to broaden the reference of the word "result" to something this is not subject of said paragraph ... |
If so, then it would have been the "any other result of the roll..." but it is not.
What I don't get is that if regeneration doesn't apply to damage that is less then deadly what is the point of the line
"For any other result, the character suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn"
{which I don't have a page reference for because I swiped it from some elses post and didn't get the page too}
If regeneration only applies to Deadly damage then why talk about standard damage penalties, in all cases the shifter would be unconcious wouldn't they?
"For any other result, the character suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn"
{which I don't have a page reference for because I swiped it from some elses post and didn't get the page too}
If regeneration only applies to Deadly damage then why talk about standard damage penalties, in all cases the shifter would be unconcious wouldn't they?
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| If so, then it would have been the "any other result of the roll..." but it is not. |
*erm* No ... since "result" is already there reference to the die roll, there's no need for saying "for any other reulst of the roll" ...
That's what references are for: To minimize what you have say.
I repeat: The word "result" is used thrice. On its first occurance it references the die roll. On its second occurance it does the same. And now at its third occurance you're trying to tell me that all of the sudden it references something that is neither mentioned in that paragraph nor referenced in the first two instances?
Sorry, but that logic is flawed ...
___________
| QUOTE (Quix) |
| What I don't get is that if regeneration doesn't apply to damage that is less then deadly what is the point of the line "For any other result, the character suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn" |
It would be nice if you took the time to read all postings. The answer to has been given
| QUOTE |
| If regeneration only applies to Deadly damage then why talk about standard damage penalties, in all cases the shifter would be unconcious wouldn't they? |
Would a shifter be unconcious with a physical M wound? No ...
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| *erm* No ... since "result" is already there reference to the die roll, there's no need for saying "for any other reulst of the roll" ... [...] Sorry, but that logic is flawed ... |
Considering your own personal readings of other parts of the text (such as the lack of reminding you that they're talking about Physical Damage after already defining it at the beginning of the paragraph), that's a pretty hypocritical statement.
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| *erm* No ... since "result" is already there reference to the die roll, there's no need for saying "for any other reulst of the roll" ... |
And therein lise our major interpretational difference. I say that "for any other result" refers to anything other than meeting the conditions above, namely for any result other than "the shapeshifter taking a deadly wound and failing the roll". Taking a moderate wound is a different result than taking a deadly wound and failing the roll.
It can be interpreted either way, either is strictly right. It's all up to the GM.
Using a literal interpretation, things here can get even far more wacky though. A Shapeshifter has a 66% chance of surviving a DN cannon shot for 35 boxes of damage for example. If he takes 12,500 boxes of damage from a nuke, he survives on anything except a 1-2.
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