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Coyote Mage
I'm considering buying CC soon. Your opinions on it would be nice, but I'm mostly concerned about the look of the weapons of Shadowrun. I have a problem imagining how the guns look and how large they are. Concealability isn't really a good guide.

Are there any pictures in CC, any other canon books or on the web?
TinkerGnome
CC isn't the best resource for gun pictures, but it's not bad. Really, the German version of CC (Arsenal 2060) is packed with pictures of guns. That's the book to turn to if you want that... though many of them are just reprints of images from the 1e and 2e books like Street Samurai Catalogue, etc.
RangerJoe
I second that. The image, for example, of the Ares Alpha really looks a little bit too much like a Nerf foam dart gun. The descriptions of the firearms tends to be pretty good, though.
TinkerGnome
CC is well worth having, though. It's just that you don't get the look of guns from it as much as you get the rules for them.

A trend with most 3e rules books is to update the material presented in the old books in as little space as possible (something I personally aprove of). You might want to pick up Fields of Fire, Street Samurai Catalog, and Shadowtech (I think those are the only ones with guns in them... actually, I'm not sure all of them have guns in them). The rules aren't so useful, but the images can be.
Cursedsoul
If you want a good source for the CC order it from FRPgames.com. I got mine for like, $15.00. Basic shipping took about 10 days, but I also got a new copy of MM and the BBB to replace the ones my friend has and I can't get to. Of course my copy of MITS is now AWOL...I can't win. frown.gif
TinkerGnome
Stiggybaby's is my usual online store preference. The price will be within $.50 after shipping is figured in, if it's not less than the other guy's.

And Stiggybaby's tends to ship you free booster packs from the SR card game along with SR orders. Not that I use them for anything, but they're fun to open. At least, they did.

[edit] Weirdness. FRPgames.com has similar prices to Stiggybaby's on SR products, but Stiggybaby's beats them handily for prices on WotC d20 stuff (well, the books I'm looking at). That's almost ironic (seeing as how one would expect the reverse given the companies and their apparent allegiances).

Weird. [/edit]
shadd4d
QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
CC is well worth having, though. It's just that you don't get the look of guns from it as much as you get the rules for them.

A trend with most 3e rules books is to update the material presented in the old books in as little space as possible (something I personally aprove of). You might want to pick up Fields of Fire, Street Samurai Catalog, and Shadowtech (I think those are the only ones with guns in them... actually, I'm not sure all of them have guns in them). The rules aren't so useful, but the images can be.

I have a copy of Arsenal 2060, and yes the picture are well worth it.

Then again, I do have Cannon Companion for players (how many SR players that are American speak and read German?)

Actually, the 3e German books are probably better than the American ones simply because they include most of the pictures (at least, looking at the German M&M).

Guns were originally in Corp Sec Handbook, FoF, SSC, Shadowtech (chem guns updated in Corp Sec), and of course, SR2.

Don
Cursedsoul
To Tinkergnome: Yeah, that's kind of odd. I was also looking at RPGshop.com. More expensive for the SR books, but the dice pouch I wanted was a buck cheaper. Of course I was also ordering something else that was fifty cents LESS than the same thing on RPGshop so the price was like, no different.

FPR was selling wood dice for 45 cents, RPGshop was like, 30. I guess this is why you're supposed to research before you pay. biggrin.gif

I was awfully tempted to buy me some really pretty dice but decided that the ones I have would be angry, plus I really don't need any. I've already got far too many D6's.

I ALMOST bought me a D100 so I can prove to the the damnably ignorant and foolish that such things exist. Unfortunately momentary happiness wasn't worth the $7.00 or so I'dve spent. smile.gif
Bigity
Yea, the lack of pictures bothers me a bit. I also miss the things like the downtown Seattle maps in the old rulebooks and Seattle guide. Things like that go a long way to make a game not just good, but great.
Phaeton
QUOTE (Cursedsoul)
To Tinkergnome: Yeah, that's kind of odd. I was also looking at RPGshop.com. More expensive for the SR books, but the dice pouch I wanted was a buck cheaper. Of course I was also ordering something else that was fifty cents LESS than the same thing on RPGshop so the price was like, no different.

FPR was selling wood dice for 45 cents, RPGshop was like, 30. I guess this is why you're supposed to research before you pay. biggrin.gif

I was awfully tempted to buy me some really pretty dice but decided that the ones I have would be angry, plus I really don't need any. I've already got far too many D6's.

I ALMOST bought me a D100 so I can prove to the the damnably ignorant and foolish that such things exist. Unfortunately momentary happiness wasn't worth the $7.00 or so I'dve spent. smile.gif

d100s also make marvelous tools for GM-to-player rule enforcement. They're similar enough to shotputs, anyway. grinbig.gif
hyzmarca
The best way to understand the look and feel of Shadowrun guns is to look at real guns. Many of the guns in Shadowrun are based on modern weapons. THe Predator is basicly a Desert Eagle. The Warhawk is just a future version of the Redwawk. For the most part, future models will look fairly similar to past models. The more advanced weapons will have evolved from the concept guns of today and they'll be functionaly and cosmeticly similar. Modern guns are very reliable and there is little reason to change designs that work.
Phaeton
I always thought that the Predator was more like a Colt Delta Elite...Besides, SR2 already had a smartlinked version of the DE.
Arethusa
I really have to take issue with the supposition that SR's guns are similar to those in real life. Based on real life, yes. Bearing much more than a superficial resemblance, no.
Cursedsoul
QUOTE (Phaeton)
d100s also make marvelous tools for GM-to-player rule enforcement. They're similar enough to shotputs, anyway. grinbig.gif

I think I'd prefer to scream "HOW DARE YOU DEFY MY RULINGS INFIDEL!" and chuck the BBB at them. vegm.gif
Link
QUOTE
Guns were originally in Corp Sec Handbook, FoF, SSC, Shadowtech (chem guns updated in Corp Sec), and of course, SR2.


SR1 too. Some of these books are still for sale new (rather than just secondhand). Check the shadowrun rpg site for what you can buy.

Also look at the SR webring, some of these older books pictures are on various sites.

Siege
This is going to sound goofy, but if you're over the age of 18, go by a gun shop and ask to examine one or more handguns.

Seeing them in movies, tv and RPGs doesn't really put things in perspective.

Having said that, there are a number of gun supplement books for RPGs with plenty of pretty pictures. Failing that, surf the web and put together your own picture compilation - although if the FBI comes knocking, don't mention my name. grinbig.gif

-Siege
BitBasher
I agree with siege here, because seeing a gun like a DE.50 in a movie doesn't do it justice as to just how stupidly huge that guns is in real life.
Austere Emancipator
http://magnumresearch.com/Videos.asp
You can get an idea of the stupid hugeness here.

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearm...s/navframe.html
Lotsa purdy pictures.

Like people have been saying, CC is not a good book for the look and feel of guns. It's generally better to get that IRL and use your own imagination for how that might relate to SR.
Zazen
I wouldn't even know where to find a gun shop, let alone have the 'nads to ask to play with expensive merchandise so I can know more about my role-playing-game. wink.gif
Siege
I strongly recommend you not mention you're doing research for an RPG. grinbig.gif

However, even just holding a singular weapon can revise a lot of absurdities in what is and isn't concealable.

And if you do, look at the ammo pouches.

While we're on the subject, a number of ranges will rent handguns by the hour for pretty reasonable rates.

Say $5 for the gun, $10 for a box of ammo and another $5 for ear and eye protection.

-Siege
otomik
QUOTE (Zazen)
I wouldn't even know where to find a gun shop, let alone have the 'nads to ask to play with expensive merchandise so I can know more about my role-playing-game. wink.gif

"Like a prick, you are having second thoughts. You are shrinking, and your two little balls are shrinking with ya. The fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your gun. (withdraws his gun) And the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O" written on the side of mine, should precipitate your balls into shrinking, along with your presence." -Snatch

yeah i guess the .50 really does have that effect on some people...
Siege
I've seen a DE .50 on the range.

Afterwards I saw the ad with Demi Moore holding one in each hand and firing.

I think it took me five minutes to stop laughing.

-Siege
BitBasher
QUOTE (Siege @ Jul 13 2004, 04:46 AM)
I strongly recommend you not mention you're doing research for an RPG. grinbig.gif

However, even just holding a singular weapon can revise a lot of absurdities in what is and isn't concealable.

And if you do, look at the ammo pouches.

While we're on the subject, a number of ranges will rent handguns by the hour for pretty reasonable rates.

Say $5 for the gun, $10 for a box of ammo and another $5 for ear and eye protection.

-Siege

That's a lot more reasonable that where I live! It's about 30 for the gun and 5 for eyes and ears with 50 rounds included, and 10 bucks for another box of 50. or so.

Oh, and most ranges here will not rent .50 AE's or anything bigger than a 44mag really because too many people fire one or two shots then want their money back on the rental, or drop the gun. We already have enough fun with the occasional foreigner that shoots an automatic with their thumb resting on the back of the slide/hammer that injures themselves. Hilarity ensues. We get a LOT of business from people here on vacation that want to shoot cause they live in gun controlled countries and never get a good chance otherwise.
Siege
The gun was absurdly cheap to rent - I'll have to double-check the price.

I think I surprised the guy behind the counter with my first time accuracy using a 9mm - but damn, the thing handles like a .22 rifle.

-Siege

Edit: You work at a range Bit? Or just hang out enough to qualify as a regular? grinbig.gif

BitBasher
No, I don't work there but I hang out a bit yeah smile.gif

I spent a lot of time there this last week buying my new USP-40 compact and doing my shoots for my CCW. biggrin.gif

Now I'm shopping around for a decent rifle to have some fun with...

And I disagree that a 9mm handles like a .22 unless it was something shoulder stocked Like this one that my dad picked up a year or so ago. (Which shoots real nice by the way)... But that's all personal preference. smile.gif
Siege
Oh really?

What are the Vegas requirements of a CCW?

-Siege

Edit: Oh, I may end up as a detention officer. grinbig.gif
BitBasher
QUOTE (Siege @ Jul 13 2004, 06:21 AM)
Oh really?

What are the Vegas requirements of a CCW?

-Siege

Edit: Oh, I may end up as a detention officer. grinbig.gif

lol... Corrections Officers are EVERYWHERE AAAH! wink.gif

For the Nevada CCW all you have to do is...

1) Pass a basic background, no felonies, no restraining orders, no history of domestic violence or mental health issues...

2) Pass a simple gun saftey course with questions like "It's acceptable to drink alcahold and use firearms when:" and you skip right to D: NEVER!.

3) Pass a "proficiency test" with each gun you want on the CCW. I use "Proficiency Test" loosely as the actual shoot is 6 shots each hand, unsupported at an B-27 target at 3 yards, 5 yards and 7 yards. If you keep most of them inside the FREAKING EIGHT RING, you pass. The 8 ring, for reference folks is an oval, about a foot an a half or so high and a foot wide. It may be a little bigger than that actually.

4) be breathing and pay 105 dollars.

It's good for 5 years. Renewals are 70 bucks.

[edit]
Essentially uou have to keep the shots inside of the oval on the Green Lousiniana target on This Page near the bottom.
Coyote Mage
QUOTE
This is going to sound goofy, but if you're over the age of 18, go by a gun shop and ask to examine one or more handguns.

Seeing them in movies, tv and RPGs doesn't really put things in perspective.



That's not much of a problem for me considering I worked at a pistol institute until recently.
Zazen
QUOTE (otomik)
yeah i guess the .50 really does have that effect on some people...

No, it's the look I get from the proprietor when I tell him I'm fooling around with his merchandise so I can learn what it's like to shoot elves and dragons nyahnyah.gif
Austere Emancipator
I must admit that when I first handled the Browning HP, I couldn't help feeling it was far too small to be a real weapon. It just felt like a toy. Before that, I hadn't fired anything smaller than a (bulky, 3.5kg empty) assault rifle, and the only pistol replicas I had played around with were a USP9 and a Desert Eagle.
Bigity
After shooting my PT-111, I have to say, I think Light Pistols get a bad rap in Shadowrun.
Austere Emancipator
And if you owned a Walther PP in .25ACP, you'd think Light Pistols in Shadowrun are way overpowered. wink.gif
Bigity
Heh, well the PT-111 does fire 9mm rounds, so I guess It could almost be classified higher smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
Seriously speaking, after the gazillion threads on RL examples of SR weapons, it is very difficult to draw a conclusion other than that Light Pistols average pretty close to 9x19 (or .38Spl or somewhere around those parts) while Heavies average closer to .41 Remington Magnum. If only there were Medium Pistols at 6-7M. Or if Lights were simply 6M and Hold-Outs 6L. But that's another rant altogether.
The Grifter
I don't think light pistols are under-powered in SR. Granted, I agree there should be a medium pistol category, tho. Example, someone shoots you with a light pistol. Doesn't start off very critical, the damage needs to be staged up for a decent amount of damage, right? Which is simulating a real life scenario. Unless the shooter put a good shot center-mass into you, or scored a lucky head shot, that round by itself is still going to wound you, but it's effect isn't going to be as great as a heavy pistol. Even if the shooter only hits you in a non-vital area, say with a .357 magnum, the penetration and tissue damage is going to be significantly greater than if he had hit you in the same place with say, a .25 caliber. Which is why Heavy Pistols start out with a higher base damage code. At least, this is how I interpreted it. Comments?
Cursedsoul
What about adding another damage level? There'd be Glancing, light, moderate, serious, deadly.

Glancing would perhaps require 3 or 4 successes to stage up, the rest would be normal. Glancing would be treated initially as a light wound, filling in 1 box.

Maybe you could increase the condition meter by 1/2 and boot up every damage level a few boxes? Might be something like:

Deadly: 15 boxes
Serious: 8 Boxes
Moderate: 5 boxes
Light: 3 boxes
Glancing: 1 box

[edit: forgot the condition monitor suggestion [/edit]

Condition monitor would go something as follows

0 = healthy
1-4 = +1TN
5-7 = +2TN
8-10 = +3TN
11-14 = +4TN
15+ = Unconscious, possibly dead.

The condition monitor could read grazed, lightly wounded, moderately wounded, seriously wounded, critically wounded, deadly wounded or something.

In this case, treat glancing to stage up as normal.

If you want to keep the ability to take three moderates and a light (the former light that would deal 1 box) before kicking the bucket, simply boost the condition monitor to 16 and add a box to Deadly, keep the rest the same.

You wouldn't have to change the damage codes of the weapons, just make Holdouts deal glancing damage and perhaps boot the power to 6.

It would make heavy pistols more damaging, make light pistols actually worth using, and well, continue the fine tradition of making HOs a last resort/hidden surprise (a HO filled with capsule rounds would be formidable. neurostun would still deal a lot of stun, the damage loss wouldn't matter really because the weapon already sucks)
Arethusa
QUOTE (The Grifter)
I don't think light pistols are under-powered in SR. Granted, I agree there should be a medium pistol category, tho. Example, someone shoots you with a light pistol. Doesn't start off very critical, the damage needs to be staged up for a decent amount of damage, right? Which is simulating a real life scenario. Unless the shooter put a good shot center-mass into you, or scored a lucky head shot, that round by itself is still going to wound you, but it's effect isn't going to be as great as a heavy pistol. Even if the shooter only hits you in a non-vital area, say with a .357 magnum, the penetration and tissue damage is going to be significantly greater than if he had hit you in the same place with say, a .25 caliber. Which is why Heavy Pistols start out with a higher base damage code. At least, this is how I interpreted it. Comments?

That's true. The problem is that there is no Medium pistol class to effectively represent real life 9x19mm (and similar variants) weapons, and, furthermore, that Light pistols were moronically intended to do this. If you instead interpret Light pistols as your average .22 target pistol, they make more sense, but it's still odd that there are no pistols to fill the role that real life 'medium' pistols do. Your best shot, if you want a quick fix, is to go with Austere's suggestion that all Light pistols hit for 6 or 7M and all holdouts hit for 6L.
otomik
I agree that way to much thought has been wasted on this subject.
Consider that the pistols were originally designed with variable staging 1st edition damage codes where light pistols kicked ass, then Firepower TM ammo was added to balance things.
Then when second edition came along it introduced uniform stagging of damage so that nerfed the light and holdout pistols. The new way that armor works (to avoid obscene amounts of dice rolling) combined with the fact that heavy pistols now do 9M instead of 6M, well thats when things really swung into heavy pistols favor. FASA had a quality control problem and game balance suffered. They're dead now, survival of the fittest i guess, they will be missed (ps I'm playing Spycraft now).
Austere Emancipator
Having fiddled with Power, Damage (Level) and Hit Location rules at work lately, I can't believe SR designers haven't made use of some of the goodness you can get with the multiple-figure damage system.

For example, assume that a .32 ACP did 6M and .30 Carbine did 9M with solid bullets. Both will reliably penetrate deep enough to damage vitals and will crush a hole of similar size -- a bit over 7mm vs a bit under 8mm, perhaps. Not that big a difference in damage caused, either in RL terms comparing the holes put in human-shaped gelatin blocks or comparing 6M and 9M in SR.

Now assume that a JHP drops Power by 2 and raises DL by one -- 4S vs 7S for .32ACP vs .30 Carbine JHPs. The .30 Carbine JHPs can still reliably get deep enough to damage vitals even against big and burly opponents at disadvantageous engagement angles, and will poke a hole closer to 12mm in diameter. The .32 ACP JHP will poke a similarly large hole, but will not penetrate deep enough in many cases, leading to non-lethal wounds especially against large foes, such as Trolls. Trolls who, incidentally, are likely to laugh off a 4S, at least compared to a 6M, in SR.

[Note: The above is hypothetical, I do not suggest you use 6M as the Damage Code of a .32ACP weapon nor -2Power/+1DL for any sort of expanding bullets.]

Now introduce some minor fiddling with Staging to allow damage caused to be in boxes always instead of levels (a .357 Magnum might do 9-3 instead of 9M), and one you've got one geek occupied for a very long time, browsing through Guns&Ammo and Firearms Tactical, filling in strange tables and smiling in a disturbing way.
Siege
Feh.

Of course, in SR no child will ever die at the hands of another child by accidental shooting.

Worst he gets is a 9M, barring a pretty high Quickness and some damned lucky rolls.

</rant>

-Siege
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Siege)
Of course, in SR no child will ever die at the hands of another child by accidental shooting.

I was thinking about working around that with a dice roll after every hit that would be added directly to the damage caused, regardless of successes. But then I got preoccupied again...

Assuming you use hit location, you could something like:
If HitLoc=Head Then +2d6Damage
If HitLoc=Chest Then +1d6Damage
If HitLoc=Stomach Then +1d6-2Min0 Damage
If HitLoc=Other Then +2d6-8Min0 Damage
Siege
Actually, I thought about something like that too.

I ended up applying it as a standard to the weapon.

A 9M weapon is actually (5 +1d6)M damage code.

When ya shoot, roll your d6 and figure out the new damage.

I doubt it would work on a practical level, but it made for an interesting conceptual discussion.

If you wanted to be really nasty, randomly modify the damage code - a "heavy" handgun does (5+1d6) Power and a d6 Damge Code:

1: Light
2-3: Moderate
4-5: Serious
6: Deadly

Of course, if you think combat took a long time before...grinbig.gif

-Siege
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Arethusa)
I really have to take issue with the supposition that SR's guns are similar to those in real life. Based on real life, yes. Bearing much more than a superficial resemblance, no.

How fortunate, then, that in a thread about the look and feel of guns, all that is required for the most part is a superficial resemblance.

~J, belatedly entering the fray
Siege
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jul 12 2004, 06:53 PM)
I really have to take issue with the supposition that SR's guns are similar to those in real life.  Based on real life, yes.  Bearing much more than a superficial resemblance, no.

How fortunate, then, that in a thread about the look and feel of guns, all that is required for the most part is a superficial resemblance.

~J, belatedly entering the fray

Eh - that particular discussion was a losing battle and I had no desire to dig in.

-Siege
Neon Tiger
About fixing them Light and Holdout Pistols, maybe giving them +2 Power? Thus making Holdouts 6L and Light Pistols(and machine pistols, too) 8L. They still wouldn't be too powerfull, IMHO. Of course, I know barely anything about firearms, so... well... whatever. frown.gif
mfb
i personally don't think any firearm (barring a few freaks and oddities) should have a damage level lower than M. it's just obscene.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jul 12 2004, 06:53 PM)
I really have to take issue with the supposition that SR's guns are similar to those in real life.  Based on real life, yes.  Bearing much more than a superficial resemblance, no.

How fortunate, then, that in a thread about the look and feel of guns, all that is required for the most part is a superficial resemblance.

~J, belatedly entering the fray

Try more superficial. A few exceptions aside, names are about all that carry over.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (mfb)
i personally don't think any firearm (barring a few freaks and oddities) should have a damage level lower than M. it's just obscene.

The way damage is calculated in canon SR, I empathically agree. "Light" simply doesn't do justice to a " hole right through you. Unless Medium pistols are introduced, there is no way Light Pistols doing Light damage will ever make sense.

Now, introducing Hit Locations and fiddling around with Staging and the Damage Code system a bit, a "Light + 1" does make sense for some not-that-lethal rounds (FMJs in the 7.62TT-9mmP range, mostly).

QUOTE (Siege)
A 9M weapon is actually (5 +1d6)M damage code.

I do not completely agree with that, although it would sort of work as a poor man's HitLoc system -- high Power = hit where vitals are close to surface or where there is less armor. More interesting to me is varying Damage Level with a dice roll, to allow lethal hits with only one success, getting rid of the "no accidental deaths" problem.
Cursedsoul
Why not make it based on the skill of the user?

Assuming we keep the canon 10 box system, you could randomly add power and damage level formulaically or a word like that. Have a minimum Power/Damage and then randomly roll to add the rest.

As an example: Heavy pistol deals 9M now. Modify the system so it deals 6L base, then you add (0.5xweapon skill)D3 to power and (weapon skill/3)D3 to damage level or something. Round down.

So say you have pistols 4 and shmucko has pistols 2. Both of you are firing heavy pistols in a totally open plain with normal ammo.

You shoot and the power is now 6+(2d3) while your DL is now +1D3 for a range of 8-11 power and L-D wound.

He shoots but is at 6+(1d3) power and gets no damage level increase.

You can also institute damage level caps. The base damage level without any modifiers cannot exceed <blank>.

You could simply apply -3power/-1DL to all weapons as they presently stand and add in random luck and allow the skilled user a bigger advantage over the weenie. Just because that shotgun deals a S wound by default doesn't mean the panicky civilian can use it to any real effect.

Anyways, just off the top of my head the small arms table would look something like this:

HO = 1L
LP = 3L
HP = 6L
MP = 3L
SMG = 3L
Rifle = 4M
AR = 5L
SG = 7M

Say you have a skill of 6 with the weapon you're firing, that HO's 1L is now 4-10/L-D

Like I said before I suggest you cap the damage you can do simply using your own abilities. Probably M for hold outs, light pistols, and machine pistols, serious for heavies, SMGs, ARs, and no cap for the rest.

Same sort of thing could be applied to melee.

I dunno, as it stands right now this probably sucks, but its just an idea.
Austere Emancipator
The problem there is one which is often run into in combat house rule threads: double gains from high skill. You already do more damage with a high skill, because you score more successes. This would lead to low-skilled people sucking even more, and high-skilled characters kicking ass more than ever.

Not to mention that it's not even very logical. If you don't hit any better, why should you do more damage? It just doesn't make sense that a lucky, almost accidental (single success @ TN 27) by a character with Pistols-12 would be even deadlier than a perfect hit (6 successes @ TN 2) by a character with Pistols-3.

My suggestion is keep the dice rolls, but forget about skill level.
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