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Lagomorph
Our current SR game ended in quite a bit of frustration last night for everyone, and it may end up that we will be ending that game. The game grinded to a halt because we always get stuck in combat, since we only game once a week, this means that combats can run for MONTHS, which no one seems to want, yet always happens.

Anyway, so with our GM thinking of quitting gaming all together, I have an opening to possibly step up to the plate with my own Idea of a SR game. I wanted to bounce it off of you guys here to see what you thought, if it will work, or any suggestions that you can make.

One of the things that I have been kind of frustrated with in SR is the fact that a character (in our games at least) is a master(rating 6) at 4-5 things, and then can NOT do anything else. No one takes etiquette or negotiations really. Given the list of skill levels in the SR3 book, it seems like it would be INCREDIBLY hard to be able to have a Skill of 6 in so much stuff.

So one of the ideas for my game would be that the characters can only have one Skill at 6, and then maybe 2 at Skill 5, and then anything else at 4 and below.

I think this would help in a couple of ways. It would help the character have one focus for thier back story, to be a Skill 6 in driving, then driving is what you have always done, being a race car driver or stunt driver. I just don't see how some one can pick up a Skill of 6 just casually. Having the skill spread out this way would also help broaden the characters out, so that they'll be able to do a little on their own, with out having to be stuck with the team to be effective.

Along with this, I think I would also change the target numbers, it seems in my groups SR games that the TNs are just insane, and the results are very binary, yes it succeded or no it did not. I want to put an emphasis on getting more than 1 success.

Possibly Like:
1 Success: Done, but sloppy (e.g. The car makes it around the corner, but slides into the curb and almost smashes a pedestrian.)
2 Successes: Done, no problems (e.g. The car makes it around, fish tailing a little bit.)
3 Successes: Done, with style. (e.g. The car executes a powerslide around the corner, looking extra cool.)

I want to make the campaign, pretty much at street level. So I'm thinking of being pretty harsh about Cyberware, Especially combat ware. I want these people to be a part of the Society of the world, not to be death dealing freaks of nature, or military grade Cyberware outcasts.

For Karma, I think I would set up the rewards to encourage working around problems rather than blasting through them (even blasting through them with non lethal solutions). Sending the big bad guy's life into complete ruin rather than just gunning him down.


Well, I'm very interested to see what kind of reviews and suggestion this Idea receives.
Thank you.
Blitz
I've never been a fan of restricting char-gen to make up for bad Munchkinism. If your characters are min maxing too much, as a GM you can set them up on a run where they will need those ignored yet vital skills. Teach them that a balanced character is a more successful character. However, for larger groups (over 7 players) having characters very specialized is tactically smart. A little overlap is good, but those groups work better if everyone has their specific specialty which can be worked into the solution for any run.

As for etiquette, if you play by the gear acquisition rules in the book, your players will learn VERY fast how much that skill is an absolute necessity. Yeah, those rigging skills of 6+ are great, but if you can't get the gear, you are pretty much useless. I know....I built a Troll Bruiser with no etiquette (necessity rather than desire), but my first in game goal was getting and improving street etiquette or else my contacts would never have info or gear for me. Might as well take hung out to dry if you don't have etiquette.

Now..combat should NOT take months to resolve. Maybe 2 hours for a good scene is about par. Either the GM is throwing way too much at the team for you to move forward, or your players are really crappy at being effective. As the GM, you can always fudge the NPCs rolls to kill em off quicker so the team can move forward. It's also a good idea to take in your team's strengths and weaknesses and design an enemy force that will challenge them, but not destroy them (unless you need to punish your players like the scum they are..Muahah..er..sorry. Ahem...)

Sounds like your team needs some intellectual challenges. Try working up a good mystery for them to solve. It's best to use some plot hook from a players history to invest the team into resolving the issue. However, make the issue one that needs to be solved through brains not brawn.
sarkem
You talked about successes adding to how well something get's done. That's something I've been doing all along. Instead of making target numbers higher, make them require more successes.

ie:

Instead of TN 14
Make TN 9 x 2 successes
Miststlkr
you are either getting too many BP's to spend or you are (playing with) a very "nice" GM who plays up to the characters' strengths. as mentioned, if you have all gun bunnies, make all the runs require stealth and etiquette.. they'll learn or they'll die.. simple as that.
Lagomorph
QUOTE
I've never been a fan of restricting char-gen to make up for bad Munchkinism. If your characters are min maxing too much, as a GM you can set them up on a run where they will need those ignored yet vital skills. Teach them that a balanced character is a more successful character. However, for larger groups (over 7 players) having characters very specialized is tactically smart. A little overlap is good, but those groups work better if everyone has their specific specialty which can be worked into the solution for any run.


I am not a particular fan of restricting char-gen either, but I want to try and introduce a different side of gaming to our group, who are all very min-max.

I've already played through runs where you need those ignored skills, and we all just go, "oh well, so what is there to kill then?"

Specialization is a good thing, of that there is no doubt, but I find it unrealistic and unbelievable that some one would be so good at so few skills. Thats why I want to try and encourage people to have lower skills and more of them.

QUOTE
As for etiquette, if you play by the gear acquisition rules in the book, your players will learn VERY fast how much that skill is an absolute necessity. Yeah, those rigging skills of 6+ are great, but if you can't get the gear, you are pretty much useless. I know....I built a Troll Bruiser with no etiquette (necessity rather than desire), but my first in game goal was getting and improving street etiquette or else my contacts would never have info or gear for me. Might as well take hung out to dry if you don't have etiquette.


I need to read up on gear acquisition for sure.

QUOTE
Now..combat should NOT take months to resolve. Maybe 2 hours for a good scene is about par. Either the GM is throwing way too much at the team for you to move forward, or your players are really crappy at being effective. As the GM, you can always fudge the NPCs rolls to kill em off quicker so the team can move forward. It's also a good idea to take in your team's strengths and weaknesses and design an enemy force that will challenge them, but not destroy them (unless you need to punish your players like the scum they are..Muahah..er..sorry. Ahem...)


That is something I am going to do my best to do, is make the combats quick, every one seems to end up breaking down to endless dice rolling against an infinite guard supply while invading some facility that never ends.

QUOTE
Sounds like your team needs some intellectual challenges. Try working up a good mystery for them to solve. It's best to use some plot hook from a players history to invest the team into resolving the issue. However, make the issue one that needs to be solved through brains not brawn.


That is definately my goal with this game, is to work to let every one use thier brains and not just shoot. Our group tends to be pretty miserable at mysteries, and I want to help them figure it out, and having more skills, and less guns, I think would help to have them rely on their brains rather than bullets.

----------

Also reading in the Coolness TN thread, I also want to encourage more descriptive actions, because most of our games boil down to "I shoot him" and that ends up not being fun for anyone
Fortune
You could always use BeCKS chargen system. This makes taking too many 6's painful. smile.gif
Glyph
You also need to start playing up how important the other skills are - and let them know before they start making their characters. Tell them point-blank:
QUOTE

If you don't have Etiquette, you won't be able to get any gear or information.  If you don't have Negotiation, you'll always be paying 2 or 3 times what someone with Negotiation would pay.  If you don't have Stealth, you might as well forget it.  Runs tend to involve combat when you are trying to escape, or when you hose up or get betrayed.  But I'm not your old GM, and I'm not going to throw endless stupid targets at you.  If you walk in the front with guns blazing, and alert the whole installation, then try to fight it out, you will die.  You might take down the guards at the gate, but after that you will have 20 guys shooting at you from cover.  This isn't D&D where you can wade through endless kobolds.  In Shadowrun, a man with a heavy pistol and a skill of 5 can ruin your day, and 10 of them can ruin your whole week.  And remember - before every run, you should gather some information from a few contacts, scout out the defences, and make some kind of plan to get in.  If you just charge in, expect to be turned into Swiss cheese.


That said, remember that there is nothing wrong with some min-maxing, especially considering that shadowrunners are professional criminals who do very dangerous work for a living. Several combat skills of 6 are perfectly reasonable. However, they also need to remember the other vital skills that they need to succeed. This may not all be all their fault, either. If the GM runs a combat-heavy campaign where other skills don't even get used, what are they going to do? Take Etiquette: 3 and Electronics: 3, or add Shotguns: 6 to their arsenal? If you explain how your campaign is going to be a little different, they might surprise you.
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