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mfb
that's not a bad idea, Isis.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Dashifen)
I've run into this gripe a lot. Especially when the Johnson gets 5 net successes on his/her negotiations test and the final negotiated price is supposed to modified by 25% in the players' disfavor. I've never, from an intellectual standpoint, truly understood how anyone would end up negotiating to a negative gain.

Johnson: Your pay is 10,000 nuyen.
Face: My god man! That's insane. We won't do it for a cent above 7,500!
Johnson: Uhm .... okay.

Edit: re-reading my post, it's much funnier if the Face is played by William Shatner.

That's the problem. Nearly everyone, myself included, does this wrong. It shouldn't be that the J tables a price and then you roll negotiations, the negotiations roll should occur before the GM sets a hard price.

~J
Dashifen
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

That's the problem. Nearly everyone, myself included, does this wrong. It shouldn't be that the J tables a price and then you roll negotiations, the negotiations roll should occur before the GM sets a hard price.

~J

What's the basis for roleplaying the negotiations then? Since it doesn't make a lot of sense to allow many negotiations rolls, and that first roll determines the final price, it seems like it cuts out all the fun of those nitty gritty negotiation session for the Face player. You're right, it intellectually makes a lot more sense to roll-play first rather than role-play, but it by rolling first it seems to all but remove role-ing entirely.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Dashifen)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 8 2004, 12:12 AM)

That's the problem. Nearly everyone, myself included, does this wrong. It shouldn't be that the J tables a price and then you roll negotiations, the negotiations roll should occur before the GM sets a hard price.

~J

What's the basis for roleplaying the negotiations then? Since it doesn't make a lot of sense to allow many negotiations rolls, and that first roll determines the final price, it seems like it cuts out all the fun of those nitty gritty negotiation session for the Face player. You're right, it intellectually makes a lot more sense to roll-play first rather than role-play, but it by rolling first it seems to all but remove role-ing entirely.

Unfortunately, for the skill to actually mean anything then the price is already a foregone conclusion after the roll, I understand your point, but by the other token, the player may not be able to role play negotiation at all but the character could be a master at it. Real life role playing is not always interchangable with strict mechanics and vice versa.
Kagetenshi
Then you've got to accept that, while in real life you may be starting at a price and possibly getting argued down, in the game there never was a higher price. You have to let the game you play and the world that happens diverge. At least, that's how I solve it.

~J
BitBasher
I have to agree that's the best way I have seen to handle it IMHO.
Kanada Ten
Roleplaying aspects influence the target numbers for the characters. IMG: When the Johnson argues down the price, it may mean he finds something of lesser monetary value that the characters desire more, and thus was able to talk them down in price by delivering this "substitute" payment. That's how I see negotations working.
Glyph
Take a look at the rules for fencing loot on page 238 of the main rulebook. Note that while the base price is 30%, it won't go above 50% or below 10%. I think negotiations with the Johnson should be the same. The Johnson only has so much in his bankroll, but the PCs should at least get the initial lowball offer if they completely flub negotiations. The players should always have the option of walking away, though. Now, even the lowball offer should, in most cases, be at least be enough for the team to meet expenses with a little extra. A GM who uses an unrealistic offer as the starting point is unfairly handicapping the PCs, in my opinion.
BitBasher
Glyph, my only problem with that idea is that the PC's suffer no penalty whatsoever from negotiation. It's then not a tactical choice to negotiate or not, you can't possibly come out worse by trying. Hell, may as well default and try since the price cant go below initial offer.
Siege
It's not like people don't start with a low-ball bid and expect to be haggled up.

The examples can play both ways - but the players don't know if the Johnson is starting with a low-ball bid and has more capital on hand, or if the offer on the table is the best possible right off the bat which tends to be statistically unlikely.

-Siege
Moon-Hawk
Here's what I do.
Option #1) The group doesn't want to deal with much negotiations, the Johnson sets a price and maybe they can RP a little bit more, like some extra expenses, but nothing much. The price is pretty much what I tell them it is. Some groups like this. They want to get to the plannin' and/or the shootin'. This is fine.

Option #2) For groups that want to negotiate. I start with Isis' method. I set a lower limit, much lower than the "base price". I let them RP through some negotiations. They then roll vs the base price. If they RPed the negotiations really well, maybe they get a -1 TN on the roll, or a free success. The final price is determined as normal by the base price, plus any nuyen for stuff/favors/gear/other that they RPed the negotiations for. Some more "off camera" negotiations happen, y'know settling up the details, then I tell them how much cash and other compensation they get after all is said and done.

Because NO ONE ever expects the runners to take the first offer. Otherwise you end up with this:
[ Spoiler ]

TheDude
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Sep 3 2004, 03:52 PM)
I'm iffy on the idea of social adepts, but not because of any fears about them replacing mundane faces.  Just depends on how it is handled.  An adept ability that worked vaguely like magical pheremones would make sense, but an ability that is explained as "You are magical, and therefore this ability increases your social skills" is weak.

There are ways to balance out the concern of social adepts stealing the limelight from mundane faces.  Mundanes are still a "non-threatening" factor to very nearly every social group you could deal with.  There are a lot of people that would be suspicious to the idea of meeting and dealing with an adept they suspect of using magical abilities to manipulate them.  Reputation is damn near everything in the shadowrunning world, and if your group gets the reputation of using magical manipulation when negotiating with people, it could hurt.

I haven't been out here in a very long time, but wanted to check out what's being bandied about on adepts out of SOTA 2064.

This quote caught my eye.

Synner pointed out in a later post that a player of an adept can take small steps to improve the social aspect of his or her character, by taking maybe one or two social-enhancing powers. In this scenario the adept doesn't surpass the mundane character that took edges and creation or karma concept design to be a face.

Alternatively, a character could dedicate a larger chunk of attention and time to social powers. It doesn't allow the adept to necessarily surpass the mundane initially, but opens the doors to some new and interesting alternatives mundanes do not have. That's the nature of being an adept.

Now, if the character were to dedicate a large chunk of karma, and make the concept singularly focused, then he or she could surpass the mundane. But, as Synner also pointed out, these would be extremely rare. And it would take a huge karma investment and dedicated concept.

I also want to point out that the notion of a "social adept" isn't merely a boost to a skill or extra dice. We designed powers with unique and interesting effects to expand the realm of possibilities.

A nice comparison is to think about the 2 powers discussed at GenCon - the memory related ones. They don't just improve a stat related to intelligence or memory, but expand the possibilities of a detective adept prototype.

Cheers. When the book finally hits the shelves I'm sure there will be more discussion. I'll pop back in more frequently now maybe smile.gif.
TheDude
QUOTE (Lucyfersam)
2 new powers, Photographic Memory (which is exactly what it sounds like), and 3d Spatial Memory or something like that, which allows you go through an area and memorize it perfectly. They also expanded the Improved Ability table to include social and technical skills.

All in all, it looks like it will be a very cool expansion for adepts, and if the rest of the book is of similar quality, it will be a great expansion that most character types can benefit from.

Just fyi - the inspiration for the spatial memory power came from Minority Report. The scenes where the detectives took the visions of the precogs and manipulated them looking for clues.

It seemed like a cool concept worth conceptually modifying into an adept power to include in the detective/private investigator adept concept.

Maybe that gives a better visual for how the power works.
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