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Bodak
Are there any ElectroMagnetic Pulse generators in SR? The kind of things that fry the circuitry of pocsecs, cyberware, decks, autodoors, etc and live in the back of your combivan?
Bane
I hope not.
k1tsune
I asked this once. It was around a year ago, though. I was being evil in plotting things to threaten my players with.
The general response fell into two categories:
1.) An EMP generator wouldn't hurt most Sixth World stuff.
and
2.) It's not feasable for some other reason.
Eyeless Blond
Well, 1 is pretty true. Most all-metal computer/laptop cases today act as Faraday cages, which should defeat EMPs fairly well, if I'm remembering my physics correctly. Most cyberware wouldn't be affected either; what isn't optical is buried under the skin in a giant sack of electrolytic meat. Most delicate electronics have some sort of grounding or other protection istalled by default that should protect against most EMP attempts, I should think.
Adarael
As per canon, 99% of all cyberware, computers, electronic devices, storage memory, et cetera is optical. The remaining pieces that are not are very well insulated. Ergo, it's next to impossible to have EMP affect things.

Now, anything that makes use of solenoids, radio/microwave transmission, et cetera, is next to impossible to insulate. Which is why the Zapper rockets can mess up drone networks.

My suggestion is this - adapt the zapper rocket's damage and effects into a cannon type of thing, and only have it affect a limited number of things - pretty much the same things the Zapper rocket's EMP field will affect, plus maybe it'd fuzz out phone/radio communications.
Edward
Almost everything is optical. Computers, cyber, telecoms. It’s all based on optical chips and durable motors. The electronic transistor is out and it takes a truly masiv EMP to affect a motor.

Any man portable (or light vehicle mounted) EMP would have no effect and it isntworth the expense for the really heavy ones.

Actually when they detonated a nuke in bug city nobody’s cyber dyed so I guess its all good.

Edward
Thistledown
Whether the optics are there or not, some people just won't pay to replace their stuff with it. I know, BBB page 28 has the first optical chip developed in 2002, but I think it would be a while before they spread to things besides computers. Even then, most people will wait for what they have to wear out.

Also remember, those computers at some point have to be plugged in. That means actual electrical wire with fuses, transistors, and all the other goodies that EMP's love so much. So, even if you don't end up doing much to the computer (maybe bust it's power unit), you'll at least turn it off. (Which may not always be what you want to do.)

Also, it'll stop cars pretty well. If it's a gas car, I suppose it could interfere with the distributer cap, making the cylinders go off randomly. Electric cars, not sure what effect it would have, but probably not good.


Char. of mine once has an EMP generator in the back of his van. Had his cyberware specially insulated for it (agreed, most is optical here, so it wasn't that hard to insulate the rest), and had a ballista and other low-tech weapons on hand for when the power's out. Granted, the van wasn't going any place, but it worked well enough as a headquarters.


Or you could throw out the whole optical thing as a house rule. Then things get relly fun.
hobgoblin
to get a emp blast from a nuke you have to detonate it high up i belive, atleast thats when the emp effect was first noticed...
Edward
An airburst nuke just gets better spread on its EMP. (I assume this is because the ground dampens it a bit) if you detonate even a small nuke under a city (as was don in Chicago) every item of electrical equipment in that city would be fried. The ward may have dome something funny with that however, it did stop the radiation.

Also the fuses and capacitors in a power supply are far sturdier than a computer chip. How are you going to generate a non nucellar man portable EMP that will fry them given 50 years of improved durability. Most computer systems are replaced every 3 years. After 10 it is in a museum. Unless a computer has the archaic host modifications (from matrix) you need a bomb to take it out.

Of cause if you do house rule it otherwise then you will find quite quickly that cyber wear is useless because every sec force is a bio soldier packing EMP grenades. Maybe not that bad but what runner worth his salt would cyber a critical system (like limbs) when they can with relative ease be disabled.

Edward
Cray74
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
to get a emp blast from a nuke you have to detonate it high up i belive, atleast thats when the emp effect was first noticed...

High up or low down:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/5971/emp.html

Medium altitude bursts (1.2 miles to 19 miles) generate minimal EMP. Ground and high altitude bursts generate more.
Bodak
Okay so chips in SR are optical, but they need LEDs and LDRs and amplifiers at the ends of each optic fibre to do stuff with the signal conveyed by the optic fibre. How do you make logic-gates without electricity, only light? With prisms?

As for cyberware, applying a voltage to a neuron makes it fire but shining light on it does nothing. Likewise 'reading' the activity of a neuron would require its voltage be read continuously to measure how frequently it fires. These things are electronic, even though the signal is then converted to light and sent to other parts of the cyberware.

I agree there have been advances in technology and insulation etc... but surely there would also be advances in the power / portability of EMP? Isn't it an 'arms race'? What now fits in the back of a truck can fry a mobile phone. Maybe what in the future sits in the back of a future truck is powerful enough to melt a current-day shielded supercomputer, or a future pocsec?

I thought that such EM radiation can pass through most structures, just as radio-waves do, although they may be attenuated somewhat. A Faraday-cage rigged to resonate at the same frequency as the EMP radiation would quench it to nothing, but I think otherwise some EM will get through.
Tanka
Cyberware is powered more by body-created electricity, hence taking Essence, as it is attached to your body. It isn't just your "soul," but your overall humanity and how much of it is being taken up by bits and pieces of metal.
Arethusa
Essence != bioelectricity. I know the explanation at the start of Man and Machine states this, but this explanation is quite frankly insane. Just take a look at the essence values for dermal armor and bone lacing and it's pretty obvious that Essence is a composite measure of the cyberware's impact on you overal (abstract) 'humanty' plus game balance (in most cases, much more emphasis on this).

As for optical computers being almost purely optical, it's a bit hard to believe, but take it as one part faith in future advancement and one (rather big) part convenience. Besides, while it does take a bit of willing suspension of disbelief, there is enough believable, real science (the already mentioned faraday cage effect, etc) to ground it.
Bodak
QUOTE (tanka)
Cyberware is powered more by body-created electricity, hence taking Essence, as it is attached to your body. It isn't just your "soul," but your overall humanity and how much of it is being taken up by bits and pieces of metal.

Essence is decreased due to making neural connections between the CNS and the cyberware. That's why you lose no essence when your meatleg gets blown off, but you do lose essence when you attack a cyberleg.
Arethusa
And that's why you lose essence when you install... bone lacing? And get pieces of armor sewn into your skin?
Jason Farlander
Well, the pieces of armor sewn into your skin have flavor text (somewhere) indicating that they are self-regenerative... which would require a somewhat complex interaction with the body to acquire materials and energy. Bone lacing is trickier, admittedly, but you can either consider it to be the nanochemical treatment that convinces your brain that the laced bones really are a part of your body that causes the essence loss, or you could say that there is a fixed nanite component that allows the laced bones to grow with the bearer.

As with all cases, you can either decide that the ruling is stupid and disregard it, or come up with creative ways to make it make sense for cases where it isnt obvious.
Da9iel
Absolutely right Jason! I like the Essence=bioelectricity argument. I think that's one of many "creative ways to make it make sense."
Arethusa
Which is, of course, where it starts to sound a bit too much like the classic Star Wars Parsec Apology.
Da9iel
Board police please forgive me. This isn't really SR, but what exactly is that apology? Based strictly on hearing it misused in the movie, I hypothesized that hyperdrives somehow fold space. Han's boast was a measure of how much the hyperdrive on the Falcon folded space on the "Kessel run." Was I even close?
Arethusa
As the Kessel Run was never sctrictly defined by Lucas, plucky fans decided that the Kessel Run was a race through a black hole cluster; the closer you pull to the black holes, the less distance you have to cover (and, I guess, the faster you go, slingshot effect and all), but, of course, the more dangerous it is. So, the fewer parsecs, the more efficient the run.

It's the same concept: an explanation that works its way around the obvious mistake(s) of the writer (in Star Wars' case, the fact that Lucas had no idea what a parsec is, and still may not, for all I know). Where some people see it as clever, I just see desperation. Ultimately, you end up with far less confusion if you just acknowledge that Lucas didn't know anything about astronomy— and that Mulvihill was talking out of his ass and just didn't want to flatly admit that the Essence numbers were mostly game balance based (well, except for those nights of heavy drinking that produced the .75 essence headware radio).
Adarael
Certainly, cyberware can't be all optical. That's a given. But it's much *less* electric/mechanical than it is now - even cyberlimbs I think of as having myomers, not solenoids or servos. I've just assumed that the really vulnerable parts are better shielded in 2064 than they'd have to be nowadays. Sure, things like a hydraulic ram, limbs, or eyes/ears would probably be more affected by an EMP than a datajack or chipjack, but as a rule of thumb I'd say almost all cyberware would be relatively unaffected by EMP.

Why?

Twofold reason:
1) Ease of play. Do you really want to make up a chart that shows how badly someone gets slagged every time they get tazed, electrocuted, walk near a microwave, get a heavy-duty radar beam swept across them, et cetera? Do you want your players' nervous system to break if they get tazed? Or they eyes to be 'worn out' if they fall in the path of a microwave target designator? I mean, if you do, more power to you, but I don't feel like dealing with alla that.

2) Physical interactivity problems. How much interference does your bone lacing give your cell phone? Does your encephalon scramble your radio link? Does the smartlink in your hand occasionally build up a magnetic charge, scrambling the input when you grab a gun? These are all good questions, great for a story or a really gritty ass game, but they all serve to make the game less smooth/playable.
Arethusa
More than simply not wanting to deal with it, there's a very serious issue with the world: how can you have a world with any believable amount of cyberware if the stuff fails that easily? The only sensible answer is that these problems have largely been compensated for by any point at which cyberware has progressed beyond protoype.
Jason Farlander
As a minor clarification, I did not mean to imply that either proposed option was superior to the other. Whichever one maximizes your enjoyment of the game is the better option to take, which will vary from person to person.
otomik
http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/jo...jc20020221.html
there's two ways of explaining it.
i seem to recall the later maw cluster blackhole explanation was used in the one novel i read Jedi Search. the kessel run has been defined as a route from the kessel spice mines to the core worlds (coruscant and correllia, basically Columbia to LA). of course there's still the problem that kessel is far away from coruscant and correllia (way over 12 parsecs) but nobody knew how to draw a map of the galazy anyway because the so called "core worlds" shouldn't be habitable in any spiral galaxy (stars too concentrated, too much radiation, i did get something out of my astronomy class).
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/map.html
mattness pl
QUOTE (Adarael)
As per canon, 99% of all cyberware, computers, electronic devices, storage memory, et cetera is optical. The remaining pieces that are not are very well insulated. Ergo, it's next to impossible to have EMP affect things.

Now, anything that makes use of solenoids, radio/microwave transmission, et cetera, is next to impossible to insulate. Which is why the Zapper rockets can mess up drone networks.

My suggestion is this - adapt the zapper rocket's damage and effects into a cannon type of thing, and only have it affect a limited number of things - pretty much the same things the Zapper rocket's EMP field will affect, plus maybe it'd fuzz out phone/radio communications.

QUOTE
Now, anything that makes use of solenoids, radio/microwave transmission, et cetera, is next to impossible to insulate. Which is why the Zapper rockets can mess up drone networks.
My suggestion is this - adapt the zapper rocket's damage and effects into a cannon type of thing, and only have it affect a limited number of things - pretty much the same things the Zapper rocket's EMP field will affect, plus maybe it'd fuzz out phone/radio communications.

I just read Lone Star one more time - on page 35 there is mentioned "zapper" - big capacitor that acts like super (...) taser. It's used against drones: high voltage destroys drone AND affects rigger - I want that baby! biggrin.gif Where I can find details of that weapon?

Anybody?
John Campbell
QUOTE (Da9iel)
Absolutely right Jason! I like the Essence=bioelectricity argument. I think that's one of many "creative ways to make it make sense."

Where it falls down is that the human body doesn't produce anywhere near enough bioelectricity to power most cyberware gadgets.
Sandoval Smith
That's what capacitors are for. I like to say that the things all have their own independant power supply, but that they constantly recharge and unless you are doing something with heavy drain constantly, cyberware running out of 'juice' should never be a problem.
Fortune
QUOTE (mattness pl @ Oct 4 2004, 12:02 PM)
I just read Lone Star one more time - on page 35 there is mentioned "zapper" - big capacitor that acts like super (...) taser. It's used against drones: high voltage destroys drone AND affects rigger - I want that baby! biggrin.gif Where I can find details of that weapon?

I believe they are now called Zapper Strips (although I might be mistaken). They are probably located in Rigger 3 (?).
BitBasher
No, two different things. The Zapper Strip has contacts that stick up and brush the underside of a car shorting it out. The Zapper Missile is what he is referring to which is a ceramic missile with alternalte layers of conductive metal and insulation so when the missile hits it discgarges unholy amounts of electricity onto a drone or vehicle. It's in r3.
Fortune
Ah my mistake, but at least I pointed him in the right direction. wink.gif
mattness pl
QUOTE
The Zapper Missile is what he is referring to which is a ceramic missile with alternalte layers of conductive metal and insulation so when the missile hits it discgarges unholy amounts of electricity onto a drone or vehicle. It's in r3.

Big thanks, BitBasher. But is Zapper Missile affect the rigger(I try to obtain and read Rigger 3 ASAP)?
Thistledown
yes
Bodak
QUOTE (Adarael)
As per canon, 99% of all cyberware, computers, electronic devices, storage memory, et cetera is optical. The remaining pieces that are not are very well insulated. Ergo, it's next to impossible to have EMP affect things.

Now, anything that makes use of solenoids, radio/microwave transmission, et cetera, is next to impossible to insulate. Which is why the Zapper rockets can mess up drone networks.

How about an induction data jack? I doubt that is optical... coloured flashes sparkling all over your palm... seems more like to be electromagnetic to me. Could you EMP an induction pad?
eidolon
Good grief. Look, if you want EMP to affect everything in your game, make it affect everything in your game. Just be prepared to argue with any player that has been playing longer than a week.
Cray74
Wow, that's serious thread necromancy. 2004 stuff.
Kagetenshi
Though to be fair, at least this time it's someone who had participated in the thread originally and is returning to it almost immediately upon their return to Dumpshock in general.

~J
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Bodak)
How about an induction data jack? I doubt that is optical... coloured flashes sparkling all over your palm... seems more like to be electromagnetic to me. Could you EMP an induction pad?

Induction is an EMF behavior, so you could definately affect it with EMP, or even possibly electronic warfare roles.
Voran
System Failure covered EMPs a bit. As they were used in conjunction with regular nukes to crash the matrix/etc. But even still, the rules were for 25 base power EMPs, that lost power -1 per km air, -2 per km if ground popped. And these were 1-4 megaton suitcase bombs. The book did talk about 2064 cybergear being optical, for the game effects it gave a base 9 hardening for cyber, -2 if 2ndhand, plus another -2 for every 5 years out of date it was.

Damage ranged from nothing, minor dmg, moderate dmg affecting your DNI displays and input, zappage type effects for riggers, to burnout of the system (assuming 6+ successes on the opposed test).

As for 2070, SR4, I'd say go with zapper type weapons instead, for direct dmg to mechanical thingies like drones. Heh maybe assault cannons can be loaded with variant rounds that are essentially Pringles chips sized cans that act like taser darts or something.

EMP might be useful on a smaller scale for screwing up things like gridguide or maglev trains or the like.
Kagetenshi
"Megaton suitcase bomb"?

I suspect another round of brain-gouging is going to commence shortly.

~J
Voran
Reading further I see....ah...they farked with them using special magical techniques. Heh magically enhanced nuclear weapons. Fun.
Westiex
Not all of the nuclear weapons were suitcase based ... quite a few where in blimps.

This is disregarding, of course, the faultline nukes.
Kagetenshi
For reference, I just checked System Failure—they do indeed say that there were "briefcase nukes" of "1-4 megatons". This alone is a clear demonstration that the writers didn't bother to so much as look at a physics textbook. The W54, the smallest nuclear warhead developed by the United States, has a typical yield of 10-20 tons—you read that right, no prefix. In a marvel of engineering, they can get a hefty backpack-sized nuke with a yield of 1 kiloton. Yes, one. The practical limit for yield is six kilotons of explosion-equivalent per kilogram of material, keeping in mind that there's a lot of other structural and triggering mass, etc.—there's no way you're going to get vaguely close to a megaton in anything like a suitcase form factor, let alone a briefcase.

And that's before we get into the fact that these nukes had been magically tampered with in ways that, among other things, made their explosions less powerful.

~J
eidolon
OMGzoooRRRRRRZZNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Don't tell me there are tiny inconsequential things in the flavor text of the books that aren't perfect?

Fuck. I quit.

wink.gif
KarmaInferno
QUOTE
How do you make logic-gates without electricity, only light? With prisms?

To answer the question from 2004 (since I didn't see it answered in the thread), logic gates in shadowrun optical circuits are based on state-change chemical reactions - when hit by a specific "control" frequency of light, the gates flip from opaque to transparent or vice versa and allow the "data" light streams to pass, or not.


-karma
Bodak
QUOTE (Voran)
System Failure covered EMPs a bit.  As they were used in conjunction with regular nukes to crash the matrix/etc.  But even still, the rules were for 25 base power EMPs, that lost power -1 per km air, -2 per km if ground popped.  And these were 1-4 megaton suitcase bombs.  The book did talk about 2064 cybergear being optical, for the game effects it gave a base 9 hardening for cyber, -2 if 2ndhand, plus another -2 for every 5 years out of date it was.

Damage ranged from nothing, minor dmg, moderate dmg affecting your DNI displays and input, zappage type effects for riggers, to burnout of the system (assuming 6+ successes on the opposed test).

As for 2070, SR4, I'd say go with zapper type weapons instead, for direct dmg to mechanical thingies like drones.  Heh maybe assault cannons can be loaded with variant rounds that are essentially Pringles chips sized cans that act like taser darts or something.

EMP might be useful on a smaller scale for screwing up things like gridguide or maglev trains or the like.

QUOTE (KarmaInferno)
To answer the question from 2004 (since I didn't see it answered in the thread), logic gates in shadowrun optical circuits are based on state-change chemical reactions - when hit by a specific "control" frequency of light, the gates flip from opaque to transparent or vice versa and allow the "data" light streams to pass, or not.

Awesome! Thanks guys; that cleared up some stuff and pointed me in the right direction to go read up on what's available in 2064. And sorry about the thread necromancy.
ShadowDragon8685
Or you could, you know, just admit that EMPs make for cool storytelling, and as long as you don't pop ones near the players too often, you can integrate them quite handily.

For example, a capicator grenade that generates a nasty EMP by combining a pringle-can sized capacitor with multiple rings of one-shot electromagnets that will flux in unholy ways when the capictor burns itself out through them. These would be the best way to deal with annoying drone (Even if the drone itself is shielded, it's radio just got fried. Unless the rigger has another drone which can transmit with a tightbeam laser/infraredand the drone that just got fried can read it, that drone is stuck in autonomous mode until it's caught and re-subscribed.

They would also be Very Handy for frying the holy crap out of computerized systems. And as for their effects on cyber?

Quick streamlined rules here:
Take the EMP's rating, at the level your Joe Cybersammie gets hit by. Impose a flat +1 TN penalty or -1 dice pool modifier for every net success the bomb generates on it's opposed test - ironically, Joe Cybersammie resists with Bod + Shielding (if any. Make him buy shielding for his whole set of cyber, which should only tack on a +1000 nuyen.gif per shielding rating per item.)

If he fails, apply the penalty to all the roles he takes that involve cyber. If he had cybereyes and ears that got scrambled, describe it to him as if he got nailed with an EMP grenade in the Dystopia Source mod. "Your vision becomes all blurry and a garbled mess of yellow and black lines with streaks of significant color standing out in stark shapes. It's damn-near impossible to determine depth like this, let alone determining friend from foe. Your smartgunlink seems to be reporting your Predator is currently loaded with more ammunition than a Phalanx-VI CIWS cannon can carry, and according to your biomonitor, you're dead. The good news is that because your ears aren't cyber, you can still hear fine - and what you hear is the sound of assault rifles having rounds chambered. Wait, did I say that was the good news?

Of course, don't slag the players. Cyberware is inherantly designed to recover from all sorts of catastrophic problems - otherwise one jolt, and you'd be back in the shop. So have the cyberware recover at a rate of reducing the penalty by 1 for every whole combat round the player survives.
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