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The Burning One
Ok gents/ladies hereís my problem. What started off as a simple question has spawned a debate. The rules as usual are little help and though Iíve checked through the old threads I couldnít find something that directly addressed the issue. What weíre trying to sort out is how exactly does astral perception work when dealing with a blind individual. The character in question is a ghoul. Theyíre naturally blind but are dual natured so have access to astral perception (in fact itís their only sight).

What does this character see when they look around? Astral perception on a normal person seems to imply that you get an Astral Overlay that stacks (for lack of a better word) with your normal vision.

Astral projection on the other hand completely changes the way you perceive the world. You see emotional intent rather than informational content. You canít read but you can interpret the emotion behind the writing (if any).

Do physical vision modifiers (shy of concealment) have any effect on the ghoul: light, dark, smoke, ruthenium, etc. Do any of these affect the ghoul character?

If so, why?

If not, why?

Can a ghoul see the red dot of a laser sight. Under the blurb for astral projection it states that an astral traveller can see both shape and colour of real world objects.

Anyway Iím hoping you get the idea.

What does the world look like through the eyes of a ghoul?

TBO
Shockwave_IIc
Though you may of caught it in your search, here i thread of mine that talked about Dual naturedness and what you could/couldn't do with it.
Cyclops and Ghouls

QUOTE
Do physical vision modifiers (shy of concealment) have any effect on the ghoul: light, dark, smoke, ruthenium, etc. Do any of these affect the ghoul character?
I think only Smoke does out of all that. Light/ Dark no, because "Life" gives the Astral plane a light to see by, and With Ruthenium, you still see their aura even if you couldn't see them. (Adept with Atral Perception Sniper/ Invisable mage)
Blender
Ok as I said in my e-mails to TBO, it is my understanding according to the rules under the astral perception heading on p.171 of the Core that those using ONLY astral sight CANNOT see anything physical, only living and magical things. If the creature is BLIND then all they have to rely on is the astral and cannot benefit from the astral overlay of their normal vision. Therefore any physical modifiers do not affect them. Astral Projection is a different thing all together but we are only talking perception. I can quote the whole blurb again under the Astral Perception heading from the book but I don't know how DSFers view rules being printed out here rather than simply referring the page number and the book.
Ombre
QUOTE (Blender @ Oct 5 2004, 09:38 AM)
it is my understanding according to the rules under the astral perception heading on p.171 of the Core that those using ONLY astral sight CANNOT see anything physical, only living and magical things. If the creature is BLIND then all they have to rely on is the astral and cannot benefit from the astral overlay of their normal vision.

"There is no such thing as an astral overlay over normal vision" since it doesn't rely on physical vision; it is a psychic sense (p171, Astral perception, line 4).
You do see physical object through astral perception although they don't have much detail, being muted by the hazy atmosphere of the astral plane (MiTSp82, Astal Visibility). If it were not so, I would like an explanation about how a Spirit with Search could find people according to their specific uniforms (which is the example given on p99 MiTS)

So visibility modifiers related to the presence/absence of light should not hamper a Ghoul, although smoke definitely should, as well as the other modifiers from the Astral Visibility Table (MiTSp82) like biomass density etc...

as for the red dot of a Laser sight...that is something that could be debated...I would tend to rule it out, since a little red dot in a place alight with life energy would not be so easy to see. Same question could be asked for a smartgun link (I would say no, because there is no cross appearing in the ghoul's visual field because it has no visual field to begin with...)

As far as I'm concerned, I would tend to describe the world through the eyes of a ghoul through an organic/living filter: objects and physical "dead" things should be indistinct, as seen through mist, without much details...kind of what a blind man would recall in his memories: an archetypal view of the object rather than a detailed description. On the other hand, every thing alive should be descripted in its full glory. i would even go as far as giving an automatic success as per the Assensing table (SR3, p172) because it is a natural vision for them (for the very same reason which gives natural vision half the modifiers of cybernetic mods) and thus describe health state, presence/absence of cyberware, general emotional state (which makes sense for a predator)...

For example: let's describe a Barrens street scene to the mundane street sam and his ghoul buddy (forgive my English, I'm just French biggrin.gif ):

" Hidden in the alley, you cast a glance into the deserted street...you can see a row of run-down brick buildings dating from the days when Puyallup was not the ash-covered blight it has become today, covered with various graffitis and frescoes dedicated to the unknown soldiers of the local gangs fallen in meaningless drive-by-shootings, with boarded-up windows...your low-light optics manage to pierce the dark and you spot a few shapes huddled together at the entrance of the nearest building, probably homeless wretches from the look of their rags and makeshift cardboard huts..."

to the ghoul

"Hidden in the alley, you cast a glance into the deserted street. Everything seems lost in a kind of strange mist which gives you a sort of dull headache while you almost hear some kind of eerie echoes of whispering voices full of despair and suffering (Puyallup Barrens' constant background count of 1) . You can see a row of old run-down buildings, looking like carcasses of some strange long dead beasts overlooking the street. When you look at the walls, it seems as though you felt a sort of feeling of sorrow although you don't understand why (the emotional content of the gang frescoes for their fallen comrades). In this squalid landscape, you spot a few luminescent shapes in the entrance of the nearest building, three sick men plagued by disease, despair and drugs, exuding fear and hopelessness."

That would be my approach...
Necro Tech
The cannon answer from ShadowFaq is "if it obscures sight on the physical, it obscures sight on the astral. Darkness is the only exception." Also, ghouls can't read books or computer screens. There is no difference between astral sight on the physical and astral sight while projecting. There is only one sense(perception=sight,sound,touch) and it doesn't change just because you left your body.
Axe
Does the +2 TN modifier for doing physical activities while astrally percieving (p. 172) apply to ghouls?
Kanada Ten
No, as a naturally dual natured creature, they do not suffer that penalty (very front of Critters).
Axe
Super, that's what I figured (I don't have Critters or the GM screen yet, I can't get them anywhere)
Jason Farlander
So... some questions along those lines. How long would it take for someone who recently became dual-natured to lose that +2? Could a mage spend a longish stretch of time (a month? 6 months? a year?) constantly astrally percieving to become similarly accustomed as naturally dual-natured beings and likewise lose that bonus?
Edward
Sounds like an edge to me.

Customarily dual natured 2/4
Somebody with this edge has spent a long time astraly perceiving most of the time and has become accustomed to the dual vision in a similar way to a dual natured critter. At the lower point cost the target number penalty for astraly preserving drops to +1. for the higher priced version the tret number penalty is removed but reseves +1 to target numbers when not astraly preserving.


Opinions?

Edward
SilverWolf_assassin
I word of caution. The blind flaw is -2 point value if you have astral perception. If the target is being hindered more by modifiers and vision problems then characters with similarly valued flaws (hunted 2, day-jobs, allergies) I would step off of them a notch. If you are in a campaign that deals with tech and drones a lot you might want to let the ruling slide temporarily.
I would also suggest applying game effects immediately and harassing them out of combat when we are talking adjustment to the new specs.

I good Gm is described in only one phrase:
"9 boxes"
Brutally sleighing characters since 2053.
Jason Farlander
I dont think imposing a +1 TN mod when not astrally percieving is necessary or even appropriate with the +4 edge. Also, I would like for this to be something that could theoretically be acquired in game, and, since there is no canon mechanism for edge acquisition of which I am aware (SRComp recommends using rp to resolve such things), the time it would take to eliminate the TN penalty is still a relevant question.
Edward
I would tend to allow edge acquisition in game for the same rate as flaw removal. Extensive RP and heavy karma cost. Not available for all edges obviously.

Edward
Fortune
I tend to think that someone that gained a dual nature from SURGE would not naturally adapt over time, even if he didn't put effort into adapting.
Jason Farlander
Fortune: Im pretty sure that what you actually wrote was not what you meant to say, but, depending on which negation was incorrect, your statement can mean very different things.

Did you mean to say: "I tend to think that someone that gained a dual nature from SURGE would naturally adapt over time, even if he didn't put effort into adapting." ("not" removed from between would and naturally)

or

Did you mean to say: "I tend to think that someone that gained a dual nature from SURGE would not naturally adapt over time, even if he did put effort into adapting." (didn't changed to did)

or i suppose theres a third option: "I tend to think that someone that gained a dual nature from SURGE would not naturally adapt over time, if he didn't put effort into adapting." ("even" removed between , and if)
Fortune
Oops, you're right. I meant to write...

I tend to think that someone that gained a dual nature from SURGE would naturally adapt over time, even if he didn't put effort into adapting.
Jason Farlander
...and thats the statement of the three that I agree with. Which still leaves the question: "How much time would that take?"
Fortune
I'd like to say 'not much', but that just won't cut it. It should be a gradual adaption, whereby the dual-natured character (for example) has +2 TN modifier for three months, then only a +1 TN modifier for the next six.
CoalHeart
Can a Ghoul drive a car?
Since he's blind he wouldn't see the traffic lights now would he? It shouldn't be too hard to avoid hitting bright shiny people, or the dull hazy blocks of cars on the street.
Herald of Verjigorm
Use gridguide in the city, when that's not available, just handle stoplights the same way as the cars around you. If they slow down, slow down. If you end up first at a red light, hit the gas as the car's going the other way start moving or the car behind you starts honking.

If by some odd chance, your ghoul driver comes upon a trafic light in the middle of nowhere with no other cars to help determine what the light is doing, just drive through, you won't hit anyone who isn't there.
Edward
I would expect that like all blind people even in places where ghouls are full citizens they cant get drivers licences. Yes they could drive a car but they would be quite prone to accidents. Mostly caused by not stoping at a red light when another car is coming threw at speed. I would say almost all ghouls do not drive cars.

The exception may be in the ghoul nation I can see the possibility of dual natured traffic lights and street signs (if you cant work it out yourself I will tell you how to build them)

Edward
Kanada Ten
AutoNAV could be moded to prompt one at stop lights. And I imagine most ghouls with minds drive where such things are not a problem, ie off road.

Asmando, the ghoul nation, does not have the resources to do what you suggest, as they cannot even store their food safely.
Moon-Hawk
A traffic light wouldn't have to be dual natured. (although it's a cool idea) It would just have to kick out a red flag on top, a yellow flag in the middle, and a green flag on the bottom. Ghouls can't see light, but they can see the color of an object, and they can see it's shape.
Not an overly complex or expensive design.
blinkin
To make a book readable by astral sight you could make an ink with a living bacteria in it. At least I think it would work.
Shockwave_IIc
Gotta keep the bacteria alive though
The Burning One
Why not just type the darn book in braille?

I mean really, astrally active bacteria in the ink?

Neat idea but it's really overly complex for such a simple problem that's been solved in excess of a hundred years before the era of Shadowrun (back in 1824 apparently).

TBO
Garland
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Ghouls can't see light, but they can see the color of an object, and they can see it's shape.

Er... Aren't mundane objects fuzzy shades of grey in the astral? Only life glows with color (signifying emotional states to trained aura readers). Your ghoul-friendly traffic light works, but not for the reason you say.
Jason Farlander
SR3 page 173, under astral senses

QUOTE
For example, you could see a stop sign and know it for what it is, based on its shape and color, but you can't read a street sign and know what street you're on.
Garland
Huh. Guess I've had that wrong. Learn something new every day...
Jason Farlander
My impression is that physical objects are dark and fuzzy - "shadowy" even - on the astral, but that you can still pick up things like shape and color, just as if you were looking at them in a dimly-lit room. The difference being that they don't retain informational content.

Which leads to an interesting question: could a ghoul/projecting mage read the "Hollywood" sign?
Garland
It would see the shape "HOLLYWOOD." Though maybe there would be some additional astral content for such a landmark.
Kanada Ten
When something goes from symbol (the stop sign) to language (the word STOP on the sign) is where astral space distorts it. Symbols are understood, which means you would understand the Hollywood landmark as a symbol, but not be able to read it letter by letter. YMMV
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