Ok Has anyone in their games tried to visualize hiding gun on their person?
I know the guns have concelament rating and all but have you really given it a thought?

in the rl it's a real bitch. Hip-hop rappers wear baggy clothing and that makes it easy to hide guns under the folds but normal people? James Bond has shown a man can hid a light pistol in a shoulder holster under a suit. Police and Gov't agents can wear larger guns under jackets but don't care if they show.

Women's suits cannot hide a gun. The cut is made to cling to the body. more casually a "boyfriend" jacket works well but not too much else. Formal wear is only mildly better than gym wear or a swimsuit and that goes for guys just as well "Is that a gun in your jock or are you just glad to see me?"

Even casual cloths don't do it. Guys can get away with looser jeans and tops, but women's jeans don't allow much give to hide a gun. and for both sides, a motorcycle jacket cuts off as the waist.

Certainly with a coat on, even a rain coat, you can hide a gun, but for the most part, unless you want to look like a slob, you can't really hide a weapon in easy reach (note a purse does not count as easy reach, trust me.)

Comments?

That is true today. And, I suspect, quite a bit in Shadowrun. But what about fashion trends towards looser clothes? They do happen from time to time.

perhaps female characters should get a +1 Cha, in exchange for a -1 Conceal to all gear.

just kidding. what women might be able to get away with is clothing that's only tight in the right spots--loose cuffs, long shirt tails, etcetera.

I'm not sure how many shadowrunners care about fashion and whats "in". I know most of my characters wear a long coat for the purpose of +2 conc. Then again, none of my characters are exactly what you'd call the social types... Shadowrunners arent known for following laws, so why should fashion laws be anything special? In general i think the PC's are wearing the proper clothing that gives their weapon full concealability. So as my final say, i think the GM can decide on the current styles, the effects on weapon concealability, and what the effects are if the characters decide to not follow it.

-UPTD

Sure, in winter or the rian you get a long coat, but what in a corp setting indoors?
Loose clothes happen, but not injeans or skirts. Usually the change is how high/low the hem and waistline. baggy jeans do not last with women-makes us look fat, and in the summer, guys who wear coats sort of stand out. Sure a loud hawaian shirt hanging outside your pants covers a gun in a waist band, but that look gets old fast and gets the attention of sec forces real quick-remember what I said about rappers?

slobs can get by with it, but they create a whole other set of problems.

In a corporate setting, if your getting hired I expect the johnson knows you're shadowrunners and will make allowances for the non-ettiquite attire. This thread reminds me of the scene in Miss Congeniality where Sandra Bullock pulls out a pistol from under her dress while shes working on pose and trying to walk like a model. The average Joe walking down the street who sees you wearing a long coat in the summer will likely think that your just another punk who wants to look cool. Granted, most shadowrunners dont give a gel round about what the average joe thinks and are much more concerned with what the gaurds and Sec. will think. In the corp setting where you want to fit in, its not likely your going to be carrying around relatively large weapons either. To put it in SR terms, James Bond probably had a custom pistol with increased concealability.

-UPTD

And a tuxedo cut to fit a holstered gun.

Which isn't exactly uncommon.

There are 2 ways to go.

Make your cover corp security and where a long coat.

Where a gun small enough you can hide it under a jacket (like bond dose) almost any man’s dress clothes would allow for a consolableable ankle holster but there is no such thing as a quick draw from an ankle holster.

Edward

Woo-hoo Snow! You give me hope role-players still live.

You can look at magazines like "Guns and Ammo" and get an idea for the concealability issues involved and some of the proposed solutions for women.

Depending on the outfit, obviously some weapons just aren't an option - my Sig 220 is a good sized weapon and not one that will be concealed on a woman wearing anything vaguely form-fitting.

This is part of the reason why gun manufacturers make snub-nosed and compact models of handguns - for undercover officers and the like who need firepower in a concealable package.

That said, a purse is a usually functional place to hide a weapon, particularly if you have it customized for the express purpose of hiding a weapon with the intent of removing it quickly.

Maintaining a weapon on your person is a little more complicated, but not impossible depending on the outfit in question - although most solutions would not allow for a "quick draw" option. At the risk of sounding like a pig, a woman might be able to conceal a small handgun under her breasts, taped just above the sternum if the blouse is dark and not particularly form-fitting. Good luck quick-drawing that one though.

Spiegel's Idea of Business Fashion

That's cutting a little close on the risque side of professional attire, but based on what I've seen women wear to work, it's not outside the realm of possibility to sneak a weapon into the outfit.

If being attractive isn't an issue, a little body padding would keep people from wanting to watch the character for too long and provide an excellent place to conceal a weapon.

-Siege

UPTD: Snow Fox is not just talking about a meet. Not all shadowruns are of the smash-em-up-and-loot-em variety. Some actually involve infiltrating certain circles of society to achieve the rquired objective. This is where the proper clothing and etiquette are important.

As noted in 2064, Culture Shock and corp brats.

The point is well made - I just don't see many groups that take that sort of detail into consideration when making plans.

-Siege

There is a simple solution: Play a magician or have hidden cyberwear. Or, grab one of the much smaller guns. Generally, if you are trying to fit in with the upper class, you should also try to pull the gun out without being obvious about it. More surprise is garnered when the attackers think you are easy prey.

In real life terms, I'd say it's definitely possible to conceal a gun in relatively form fitting clothing. In winter, any coat'll do (for those unfamiliar with various cuts, you might have luck poking around something like bluefly for ideas). A car coat would certainly work, and everyone's familiar with trench coats, but even shorter, a biker or bomber can work. Now, something really fitted and really short (there are some canvas jackets by Rogan or Ralph Lauren) will cause problems, but a single stack, slim form factor pistol can definitely fit if you know what you're doing. Now, you won't ever manage to stash anything in a fitted tshirt, but a relaxed or classic cut buttoned shirt will definitely leave room for a slim holster (small of the back, maybe stomach if you have the pecs to even things out). In terms of pants, slim cut jeans can be fairly forgiving. You won't hid anything near your crotch (no jokes about easy access, thanks), but with a boot cut leg opening, you can definitely fit something in the Glock 30/36 or Beretta 9000 range. Leg opening's not exactly easy access, but it's there. If you want to go more formal, traditional or casual cut slacks/chinos are far more forgiving, as are dress shirts, and a blazer or more formal jacket can definitely give you room. Certainly, there are more fitted cuts for these things, but even then, a slim, small gun is doable. Variations, of course, need to be taken into account depending on how fit/slim you are.

For women, it's a fair bit harder, considering how much skin they tend to show with most fashions (and I can only expect this trend to continue). There's no way women'll conceal a gun with most shirts or pants. Likely, inside of thigh with a skirt or concelead under a jacket are the most viable methods. That's not to say that women don't have loose clothing that's still attractive, but it tends to be very casual. Might be able to get away with a slim form factor gun on the inside thigh with some looser business type slacks, but not being a woman, I can't vouch for this.

Under the bust is not an option. Think about where you look at a woman when ogling. you're going to notice a bulge there right?

shoulder holsters work better for men because of the anatomy that gives you broader shoulders. The hollow under the arm can hide something. Our, womens', best chance is the small of the back, but even then a quality suit is not good. The inner thigh holster looks good in movies but trust me boys, uh-uh. chaffe city.

Fortune is right about how I view playing. Not all of us are mercs out of the Z security zones. My main character is a nice respectable woman who spends most of her day with nice people who'd seriously fvreak if they knew what she did for a living.

Then perhaps I have the perfect cover for someone who deals with the upper class. She moves among the higher class and openly carries a gun. Why? Officially she is a security consultant whose specialty is in the magical arts. This means she spends a lot of time supposedly travelling. Her explanation about the gun is simple: Her clients tend to feel more ready to trust her when they see she has prepared for the possibility of trouble. In reality, the only people she provides security advice for are the gangs she deals with on a regular basis, and he advice usually consists of showing flaws in their defenses by using those flaws to kill the gang members. But, ask your GM before trying this.

Oh, and her excuse as for why she doesn't give security advice to friends: She wants to keep her home life and her working life separate, but keeps the gun out of habit.

Admittedly that is one scenario, but not by any means the only one. The character in question (I'm sure) just would not fit the role of Security Consultant, that being much too beneath her. As she said, not everyone has the same motivations when playing shadowrun. One person's night of fun might be another person's night of boring-talking-stuff.

Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way. She needs to hide a gun, but still be able to access it when the shooting starts. We've already ruled out quite a few places and, depending on the current fashion trend, may end up ruling out the rest as well. After all, is she is going to be hobnobbing, she nees to stay with their current trend. Which means she may be relying on a purse for months at a time.

Perhaps instead of concealing a gun in an easy to access location, we should look at ways she can delay being hit by bullets until she has her gun out.

As Siege pointed out, a purse is an ideal place to carry a firearm. You can even get away with larger guns than men can conceal, and it's harder to spot it accidentally. I seem to recall hearing about several "purse pistol" designs that would be the equal of a Shadowrun heavy pistol.

Actually, my bust idea depends on the type of clothing and the physical dimensions involved - it's still feasible, depending on the amount of gap between "top" of breast and distance to waist.

If she's a fit woman wearing a relatively snug outfit - well, yes...that's going to seriously impact the options.

And it would still be awkward as all hell.

-Siege

A woman can easily hide even a very large gun under a long skirt... there's no way to know that such skirts won't be fashionable in the future. Just add a small slit to the skirt and she can draw the weapon as though pulling it from a pants pocket. Even under a shorter skirt you can hide a weapon between the theighs. Handbags have already been mentioned, and she could hide a weapon easily enough under a blazer, or any other form of jacket. Also, many women today wear scarves and the like, which could again be used to conceal a weapon. A creative person might even hold the gun under a bundle of scarf, concealing the weapon even while it's ready to fire.

Seriously, it's not THAT hard. Not all women wear skin tight spandex all the time.

JaronK

I think SnowRaven is aware of that, Jaron.

-Siege

Nevermind.

So go with my first. Under a long skirt, on the inner thiegh, with a slit cut in the side. Not a tight skirt, but one with a bit of space and ripples. Totally invisible, you can hide a heavy pistol easily, and she can draw it very quickly (it'll look like she's grabbing her croch, but while the folks are distracted by what they think is a woman masturbating, she's drawing her gun and firing).

JaronK

My main character is a paranormal researcher who has helped the police on occassion. She is licenced to carry a colt Asp so the police, who know her, doen't hassle her, but there are jobs where you don't want to show a gun or can't.

but I wasn't just talking about myself. I wanted to know if other people had run into this sort of issue.

Clearly if you're at a health club, you're not hiding a gun, yes I've been in that situation, but there are so many others where it's going to make things difficult if people know you're carrying a gun. Seriously, think how you'd feel in RL if you know the woman behind you in line at the Mall has a gun on.

Man, woman - I can't say that I much care. If someone is behind me in line, sitting at a table for dinner or whathaveyou, if they're not wearing a uniform and the gun is fairly obvious, I'm going to be aware and a tad nervous.

Contrary to international opinions of America, as a rule we don't routinely carry firearms and have shootouts at high noon.

License to carry or not, I think a common reaction in today's society would be to call the police - particularly depending on the time, location and appearance of the person.

All of which lends weight to why SnowFox's question is a valid one.

This is more of a guy's solution, but in a pinch slap a piece of velcro on your belt and on the inside of your jacket. That will keep the jacket from flapping open and exposing the gun and still give you easy access in a crisis.

-Siege

Siege what state do you live in?

Ok so I will take Siege's statement to mean that people in Georgia do not routinely carry guns... This is one Aussie who has seen enough to realize that the USA is not Homogenous enough to make any generalization concerning "Americans"

Not saying the other 49 states have guns as routine but that maybe one or two do (I know from a friend that some parts of Kentucky are almost there, and apparently according to some of his former squad buddies (USMC) texas has bad parts, but I would hazard a guess that most of the other 47 states aren't like that.

There are good parts and bad parts everywhere. I can take you to places in Oz where you wouldn't think of walking around unarmed.

No arguements fortune, I used to live in such places...

There once was a sourcebook for a game I cannot recall, that pointed out the following (paraphrase):

A nun could probably hide a SAM missile under her habit, but an exotic dancer is going to have trouble concealing even a small knife. Choose your clothing carefully.

CC mentions several lines of clothing/armor that have specially added concealed holsters sewn into the lining. Runners can get good mileage out of the "I'm a paranoid citizen" look.

You see, if you go to these areas often for runs, then it'd probably be worth it to get a Oral Gun. It's pretty much unnoticeable. Or even a cybergun.

Or heck, rely on razors and claws, Learn martial arts. Instead of trying to find ways to hide a gun, think of other options.

If you absolutely HAD to carry a gun in these areas, and were wearing a tight skirt, you're fragged. End of fragging story.

Vermont has the laxest gun laws in the country (which is a source of unending confusion for most of the country, who seem to be unable to fit people who are in favor of both gay marriage rights and gun ownership rights into their partisan worldviews). Anyone over 16 can carry pretty much anything they want, openly or concealed, without a permit. I have, once, seen a random guy in the grocery store wearing a pistol openly. This didn't seem to particularly concern anyone (myself included), but still... once.

There are places in this country where permits to carry are available, but open carry is illegal. The weapon must be concealed.

Heh. Well, I know quite a few people who are responsible concealed carry citizens. Most of them are men, but a few women are there.

... Weird part is that most of them are old friends from Ohio. (Recently moved to Alabama for work reasons... Starting to have second thoughts...

Ok, thinking about it i have created fashion rules.

Fashion 101
--------------------------------

Roll to detemine current fashion trends. Not following these result in -2 to all corprate social tests.

Men:
To be honest, I can't think of a mans style which would affect consealibility. And they pretty much stay the same. Suits and Kakhis (sp?).

Women:
1: Tight revealing dresses. You're screwed.
2: Skirts. No penalty.
3. Leather. Screwed as far as guns go, but switchblades are possible with a +3 TN penalty
4: Casual Bisnuess: (The stuff shown on the linked site above.)
5: Tight-on-top-easy-on-bottom-dresses (Is there a proper name?) No penalty
6: Roll again (Can't think of anything.)

I know these suck. Please feel free to improve/post.

Guy's fashion isn't just limited to what you put down. That's just the current trend.

One of the things you have to keep in mind is the word 'futuristic.' What is fashionable now wasn't about 50 years ago, and what is fashionable now won't be in the 2060s. The current rules of what fashion amounts to do not apply.

And has been for a very long time.

~J

Suits have mostly been considered a necessity. Plus, even the suits themselves have changed with fashion. Compare a business suit today with one from the 1940s. Now, in turn, stop and try to guess how much business suits will change in 60 years.

Also, khakis have only been a recent trend as fashionable for this era. Before that, I can't honestly say they were.

Finally, remember this: Each level of society has a different sense of fashion. At this point, it is very noticeable. By their time, with the increase in the differences, it should be extreme.

Quite honestly, the main changes I can see since about 1900 in Men's Fashion have to do with the hat and pocket watch going out of fashion.

The hat's a big one, but still…

~J

Let's not forget the changes in materials, cut, available colors, and changes to accessories. And what about how dress shoes have changed?

Also, one other thing to keep in mind: Not all social situations in the upper class use the same style of clothes. A suit is practical at a formal party, but not at a meeting that happens on the beach. And it is not unheard of for certain members of the upper class to make their own fashion just to stand out.

For all intents and purposes, if you are sent to a corp, told not to have weapons out, and give a frag about fashion, you're probably at a meeting or corprate party.

What type of corporate party? One on a beach inside the building or elsewhere? One focusing on some aspect of some culture? Casual? Formal?

I can't argue with the point about meetings.

Now, I'm having some problems revising the list...

If it was on the beach, you probably wouldn't have to go. There isn't anything to steal you'd have to be physicaly at the party to get, sniper rifles are fun, and there isn't any data to liberate.

I'm assuming inside a mansion or the corp itself.

That's patently untrue. Pocket secretaries go to the beach too, as do portable computers.

~J