Full Version: Is it just me or are Adepts still the weakest link
haha, missed that. slick.
SURGE does have its good points. Unfortunately they don't outweigh the cheesy amime factor.
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| (slight rant) From an In Character viewpoint, physads should be the least likely to ever take cyberware, possible exception of some shamen. These are people whose magic is in the intimate connection of mana and their own bodies for Christ's sake! Magic ebbs and flows within evey cell of their being! Remember the old quote? "Mages wield magic - I am magic." The very idea of decreasing that connection and replacing bits of their living bodies with alien metal should be utterly ****ing repugnant to them! Screw min-maxing, screw munchkinism! Frell them repeatedly in the anus with broken glass! Just Say No to cyberware! |
I have to say bulldrek to this. There are probably many adepts who feel this way, but you can't paint them all with the same brush.
Not even every adept that doesn't use cyberware is doing it because they don't want to mess up their magic. My character Riddle, for example, is a gun adept who stubbornly clings to the thought that he is nonmagical. He claims that cyberware is "cheating." You can bet that if he didn't have biorejection he'd have a smartlink in, though. In his case it isn't some mystical bs, it is simply about being the best he can.
Not every adept is going to be driven to be a perfection of spirit and body. Many are simply going to be driven to be the best at what they do, though there are probably still a healthy number that prefer to avoid putting foreign objects in to supplement there skills.
indeed. adepts are possibly the most variable character type out there; they cover huge spectrums of skillsets and philosophies. you can't just say "all adepts feel this way about x".
Quite a few Adepts might get implants before even discovering they are Awakened.
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 14 2004, 05:16 PM) |
| SURGE does have its good points. Unfortunately they don't outweigh the cheesy amime factor. |
That reason along is a good reason to at least think about playing them. Chessy anime factor all the way.
Well, as soon I do a little more book work, I will make a full character. But so far I would point out that someone with high end bone lacing,a few bit of bio ware to give a few extra melee dice,boosted relfexes level 3, thyroid..but the real kickers would be things like thermal smoke,and super flash packs.
I set up a test that I knew people would make one trick ponies and claim that they were the best because they could throw tons of dice around. But in shadowrun the TN's mater more than the dice.If you are rolling 14 dice at TNs of 7,and they are rolling 27 dice at TNs of 11, you win. And the chance of you the street sam with a reaction of at least 10, and upwards of 18 catching most of these guys off gourd is very high.
I set up a test that I knew people would make one trick ponies and claim that they were the best because they could throw tons of dice around. But in shadowrun the TN's mater more than the dice.If you are rolling 14 dice at TNs of 7,and they are rolling 27 dice at TNs of 11, you win. And the chance of you the street sam with a reaction of at least 10, and upwards of 18 catching most of these guys off gourd is very high.
So basically I put a simple and fairly normal area in witch all most every character can and will run into in point or another. Ie hand to hand combat. Hand to hand combat being a field that most people think is owned by adept, but by the very fact that most hand to hand adepts are rather open to unconvitinal tricks,they lose. Lack of flexibility in a shadowrunner is death.
The small little details,and edges of cybereware are often over looked,but in a lot of fights are worth more than the big piles of dice that most people think of as being the soul way to win.
The small little details,and edges of cybereware are often over looked,but in a lot of fights are worth more than the big piles of dice that most people think of as being the soul way to win.
| QUOTE (Cynic project @ Dec 14 2004, 05:48 PM) |
| I set up a test that I knew people would make one trick ponies and claim that they were the best because they could throw tons of dice around. |
So basically you are cheating? Setting it up so that it is a smack each other over the head until one is dead contest and then actually bring tacticts to the arena. Very well.
Replace 2 levels of pain resistance on my adept with thermal vision, lowlight vision, flare compensation, and vision magnification 3. Instead of geasing them for loss, apply the geas to two levels of improved ability. Spend some of the 10k I had floating around on standard smoke grenades, flash packs, something to take out the lighting, etc, because natural sense enhancements will blow cyber ones out of the water. More dice+lower TN's=dead sam.
I can see this going the same way that the thread that said that said speed mattered in Hth and someone trying to prove the point vs a troll.
If i recall it ended something like the troll with combat axe and riot shield or something. with the elf going for superflash eye'ware.
Ended up all being somantics.
If i recall it ended something like the troll with combat axe and riot shield or something. with the elf going for superflash eye'ware.
Ended up all being somantics.
| QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc) |
| I can see this going the same way that the thread that said that said speed mattered in Hth and someone trying to prove the point vs a troll. |
Different issue back then.
The base argument was that a certain person claimed not "munch" and that this fact was evidenced by the sheer "fact" that most of his / her character's were elfs and elfs generally being sucky at melee.
The subsequent discussion was about the possibility to "munch" out an elf who stood good chance against a melee troll ...
| QUOTE |
| If i recall it ended something like the troll with combat axe and riot shield or something. with the elf going for superflash eye'ware. |
Morning Star plus riot shield wielding troll vs. elf with super-flash and only range 1 weaponry was the last presented situation. The problem was however, that "updates" (especially on the troll) where specifically aimed to over-come that particular elf while maintaining combat prowess against most other opponents.
And there was some misunderstanding about the basis of comparison, but that was a non-issue in the end ...
| QUOTE |
| Ended up all being somantics. |
Actually no, Cain and I didn't have any problems of semantic kind.
Since my position back then wasn't about that elf taking down any melee troll, the argument as such was simply ended ...
My missunderstanding.
I thought it was about the fact speed did affect Hth, Hence why it ended up as Elf vs Troll to try and prove the point.
Thought the arguement is different i can see it ending the same.
ie. No real winner.
I thought it was about the fact speed did affect Hth, Hence why it ended up as Elf vs Troll to try and prove the point.
Thought the arguement is different i can see it ending the same.
ie. No real winner.
| QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc) |
| I thought it was about the fact speed did affect Hth, Hence why it ended up as Elf vs Troll to try and prove the point. |
The base line there was, that the elf has higher average reaction and a higher combat pool => With that little egde he could a) make use of the super-flash and thus potentially gain an edge and b) the higher combat pool enabling him to stay unharmed without running out of pool in the second attack / defense situation that normally occurs even with only one initiative pass ...
| QUOTE |
| Thought the arguement is different i can see it ending the same. ie. No real winner. |
That however is absolutely true ...
Didnt a post a few months ago rail on about this topic for a long time, and it ended with adepts being better specialists and sammies being better generalists?
In my opinion, unless you severely limit the jobs you do, being too much of a specialist equals death in the shadows. The characters that I've had survive for a good amount of time (I use 250 accumulated karma as the threshhold), have tended to be generalists. They weren't the best at everything they did, but were good enough to get the job done 90% of the time. On the other hand, the specialists I have played don't usually make it to 100 karma, and once they hit that (often before), start becoming generalists so as to survive.
edit : I am sure this is just a reflection of how my group and i play. We catagorize eachother as "skills men" and "attributes men" (referring to our priorities at character creation). I am most definately a "skills man".
As for "I'll just geas this power and blah blah blah". To each his own. In our games geasing is looked on as a big sacrifice and it is the rare character who willingly imposes such a limitation upon himself. Even such harmless ones as "talisman" can (and should) be exploited by the GM. Players shouldn't ever get something for nothing unless it is part of the story.
In my opinion, unless you severely limit the jobs you do, being too much of a specialist equals death in the shadows. The characters that I've had survive for a good amount of time (I use 250 accumulated karma as the threshhold), have tended to be generalists. They weren't the best at everything they did, but were good enough to get the job done 90% of the time. On the other hand, the specialists I have played don't usually make it to 100 karma, and once they hit that (often before), start becoming generalists so as to survive.
edit : I am sure this is just a reflection of how my group and i play. We catagorize eachother as "skills men" and "attributes men" (referring to our priorities at character creation). I am most definately a "skills man".
As for "I'll just geas this power and blah blah blah". To each his own. In our games geasing is looked on as a big sacrifice and it is the rare character who willingly imposes such a limitation upon himself. Even such harmless ones as "talisman" can (and should) be exploited by the GM. Players shouldn't ever get something for nothing unless it is part of the story.
| QUOTE (FrostyNSO @ Dec 14 2004, 07:20 PM) |
| As for "I'll just geas this power and blah blah blah". To each his own. In our games geasing is looked on as a big sacrifice and it is the rare character who willingly imposes such a limitation upon himself. Even such harmless ones as "talisman" can (and should) be exploited by the GM. Players shouldn't ever get something for nothing unless it is part of the story. |
I agree almost entirely there. Though the GM shouldn't "exploit" the geas unless the particular bad guy (if there is such a thing in SR) knows about it, there should be situations where the geas does serve as a restriction, though, that's why adepts I build only very rarely geas anything for reduced cost, and then they put it to something that they have more control over (uninjured/injured, behavioral restrictions, etc.). However, you're better off geasing for magic loss than not. Even if you only meet the geas 1% of the time, you won't have access to those powers at all if you don't geas it.
uh, cynic? exactly what keeps adepts from using flash-packs and thermal grenades? you lost me there.
Magic.
I'm failing to see how making a better melee character one way or another proves that Adepts are a one-trick-pony. An Adept with 30 BP of skills (which is low) could have ...
A melee skill of 6
A gun skill of 6
Athletics of 4
Stealth of 6
Etiquette of 4
Electronics/Device Interlinking (or other specilization) of 1/3
Biotech/First Aid of 1/3
Then add Magic!
A melee skill of 6
A gun skill of 6
Athletics of 4
Stealth of 6
Etiquette of 4
Electronics/Device Interlinking (or other specilization) of 1/3
Biotech/First Aid of 1/3
Then add Magic!
Fortune, remember that the Specialisation may not exceed twice the base skill. The lowest is 2/4.
Not true. An exception to that rule is when a skill is 1/3. This is even listed in the core rules.
1/3 is explicitly allowed for chargen but not after.
Ahhh.. I forgot the exception part. Thanks for the reminder.
I gave Cynic the first go at the sammie, since he started this contest. Since he seems to be passing on giving stats, I offer the sammie version of the human adept I did earlier. Note that this guy and the adept are not my usual fairly well-balanced characters: they are min-maxed for melee combat.
So here's the sammie:
And here's the troll version...
So here's the sammie:
[ Spoiler ]
And here's the troll version...
[ Spoiler ]
We see this exact thing again and again while improving our characters.
You are an Adept, who hase just completed a couple of runs and now have a some cash and enough Karma to Initiate.
You Initiate and get one more Magic Point. There are 2 ways to "spend" that Magic point.
1) You can buy 2 step of Adept "Increase Attribute:STR" and get 2 stronger, or...
2) Buy 4 levels of Bioware Muscle Enhancers:STR and 1 level of Muscle Enhancers:QCK and get 4 stronger amd 1 quicker.
The two don't really seems very equal.
Now while you are right in saying that the Adept can keep getting More and More, and the 4 STR is the max for Bioware, I will agree, but they could also keep spending points in other areas, until you've maxed everything out you could want from Bio and Cyberware, it'll always get more bang for your buck to get the powers from Cyber/Bio.
You are an Adept, who hase just completed a couple of runs and now have a some cash and enough Karma to Initiate.
You Initiate and get one more Magic Point. There are 2 ways to "spend" that Magic point.
1) You can buy 2 step of Adept "Increase Attribute:STR" and get 2 stronger, or...
2) Buy 4 levels of Bioware Muscle Enhancers:STR and 1 level of Muscle Enhancers:QCK and get 4 stronger amd 1 quicker.
The two don't really seems very equal.
Now while you are right in saying that the Adept can keep getting More and More, and the 4 STR is the max for Bioware, I will agree, but they could also keep spending points in other areas, until you've maxed everything out you could want from Bio and Cyberware, it'll always get more bang for your buck to get the powers from Cyber/Bio.
| QUOTE (ES_Riddle) | ||
So basically you are cheating? Setting it up so that it is a smack each other over the head until one is dead contest and then actually bring tacticts to the arena. Very well. Replace 2 levels of pain resistance on my adept with thermal vision, lowlight vision, flare compensation, and vision magnification 3. Instead of geasing them for loss, apply the geas to two levels of improved ability. Spend some of the 10k I had floating around on standard smoke grenades, flash packs, something to take out the lighting, etc, because natural sense enhancements will blow cyber ones out of the water. More dice+lower TN's=dead sam. |
And yet still you would get boned with thermal smoke. I am sorry I didn't bring the books with me and I am in a public libary so i only have a short amount of time.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| I gave Cynic the first go at the sammie, since he started this contest. Since he seems to be passing on giving stats, I offer the sammie version of the human adept I did earlier. Note that this guy and the adept are not my usual fairly well-balanced characters: they are min-maxed for melee combat. So here's the sammie: [ Spoiler ] |
Glyph you are getting hot, but you are missing a few key things and are breaking the rules,at least as far I know. You Bio,and essense index can't get bigger than 10.
so? it's not like the sam wouldn't get boned with thermal smoke. "but the same can get ultrasound vision!" who cares? so can the adept--with goggles, if nothing else.
i'm not sure what you're talking about, with the bio and essence index. the maximum bio index is 9; that character's bio index is 4.75, which is less than 9 (or 10). essence index is equal to the character's current essence +3; the character's bio index cannot rise above essence index without bad things happening. the character posted is completely kosher.
i'm not sure what you're talking about, with the bio and essence index. the maximum bio index is 9; that character's bio index is 4.75, which is less than 9 (or 10). essence index is equal to the character's current essence +3; the character's bio index cannot rise above essence index without bad things happening. the character posted is completely kosher.
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| You Bio,and essense index can't get bigger than 10. |
Glyph's sammie has used 4.08 Essence, leaving 1.92. Essence index = Essence + 3 = 4.92. If Bio Index equals or exceeds Essence Index, the character starts suffering from Excessive Bioware Drawbacks (mm.78). If Bio Index exceeds 9, the character dies.
Edited as per Cochise's correction below.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Glyph's sammie has used 4.08 Essence, leaving 1.92. Essence index = Essence + 3 = 4.92. Bio Index cannot exceed Essence Index, which means it can never exceed 9 for most things. In this case, BI cannot exceed 4.92, which it doesn't. It's legal. |
Correction there:
Essence: 1.92
Essence index: 4.92
Bioindex can equal or exceed Essence index, but then excessive bioware rules kick in.
Bioindex can never exceed the value of 9 for metahumans ... Bioindex above 9 => Death
Augh, sorry about that!
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| And yet still you would get boned with thermal smoke. I am sorry I didn't bring the books with me and I am in a public libary so i only have a short amount of time. |
I still fail to see where the sam is going to avoid being boned by smoke in any way that the adept can't mimic through powers or technology.
If you really want to play the TN game, the adept can always take astral perception and blindfighting. With that combination you can't make him get above TN 6 through vision penalties if he isn't even looking at you physically. Close combat will negate any reach bonuses the sam has, and dropping thermal smoke grenades of your own will keep the sam at a fairly high TN as well.
Hand to hand the adept can rock the sam in dice and TN, and can make the soak test difficult enough that damage will be dealt regardless of body dice. A specialist adept will destroy a specialist sam. Whether the generalist sam outclasses the generalist adept is another question.
| QUOTE |
| Now while you are right in saying that the Adept can keep getting More and More, and the 4 STR is the max for Bioware, I will agree, but they could also keep spending points in other areas, until you've maxed everything out you could want from Bio and Cyberware, it'll always get more bang for your buck to get the powers from Cyber/Bio. |
Don't forget, bioware caps out at your RML. So, if you've got a human with a Str of 6, he can only increase his Str to 9 with bioware. The adept has no such restriction.
I am unaware that the Adept is immune to the "natural Attribute does not exceed RML" rule. The only way to break that barrier is the Attribute Boost but it is only temporary.
nitpick: neither are capped by the RML, they're capped by the Attribute Maximum.
and, yeah, adepts are limited to the AM.
and, yeah, adepts are limited to the AM.
Sorry... mixed up RML with RAMs.
Ditto, but where does it say that Adepts are capped in any way? All I see is that the improvement costs more to exceed the RML. Adepts can keep going and going.
The Improved Attribute ability costs are doubled but because the Improved Attribute is a natural increase, you could keep increasing the Improved Attribute but the actual Attribute itself is still capped.
You could have Improved Strength 5 but if you are a human, then without Exceptional Strength your maximum Strength will still be 9.
You could have Improved Strength 5 but if you are a human, then without Exceptional Strength your maximum Strength will still be 9.
Where does it actually state that Magical Improvements count as natural?
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Where does it actually state that Magical Improvements count as natural? |
| QUOTE ( p41 SR3) |
| Note that the Attribute increases a physical adept receives through the Improved Physical Attribute power (p169) and other powers are treated as natural, not augmented, ratings. |
There you go.
That's cool ... thanks. 
| QUOTE (ES_Riddle) | ||
I still fail to see where the sam is going to avoid being boned by smoke in any way that the adept can't mimic through powers or technology. If you really want to play the TN game, the adept can always take astral perception and blindfighting. With that combination you can't make him get above TN 6 through vision penalties if he isn't even looking at you physically. Close combat will negate any reach bonuses the sam has, and dropping thermal smoke grenades of your own will keep the sam at a fairly high TN as well. Hand to hand the adept can rock the sam in dice and TN, and can make the soak test difficult enough that damage will be dealt regardless of body dice. A specialist adept will destroy a specialist sam. Whether the generalist sam outclasses the generalist adept is another question. |
Here are a few things that the adept can't beat in the TN game.
Ultra sound. They can't beat the sam in this manor because the sam can get beter ears, that when used with white noise can give +5 TNS to the adept,and -3 TNS to the sam.
Supber bright flash. An adept at best would have to stage down 10M stun,that adds +1 TN for evry box of damage it does. So on a good day for the adept, that would be plus +1 to tns..On most days it would be +4-5. Yes, it would only last a few round, but by the time it is over the adept would be dead. So on a really good day for the sam, we are looking a TN diffrance of 13. How many tmore dice would you need to make up that margin?
| QUOTE |
| Here are a few things that the adept can't beat in the TN game. Ultra sound. They can't beat the sam in this manor because the sam can get beter ears, that when used with white noise can give +5 TNS to the adept,and -3 TNS to the sam. |
Astral perception+blind fighting. +2 TN. And if I've guessed correctly about which ears you're talking about (spatial recognizer, high frequency hearing, select sound filter to fight the white noise), they will not give you better combat target numbers, those bonuses only apply to perception tests involving hearing and finding someone by sound.
| QUOTE |
| Supber bright flash. An adept at best would have to stage down 10M stun,that adds +1 TN for evry box of damage it does. So on a good day for the adept, that would be plus +1 to tns..On most days it would be +4-5. Yes, it would only last a few round, but by the time it is over the adept would be dead. So on a really good day for the sam, we are looking a TN diffrance of 13. How many tmore dice would you need to make up that margin? |
The modifier from them is still a vision based modifier, and an astral perception+blindfighting adept isn't using physical vision. He'll still be looking for 6's. Your sam will be relying on ultrasound to negate smoke, flash packs, etc. and will probably have at least a +2, so TN's are going to be in the same ballpark.
On a side note, I could also play around with 'ware until I have the .2 points essence to spare for cybereyes (probably by pulling one point of muscle augmentation). Throw super flash in them and your sam is in the same boat. Heck, if I don't mind loosing 1 die from my improved ability, I could put them in and have some space for more 'ware. Both of us can use superflash, but if your eyes burn out you'll be in a much worse boat than an astrally perceiving combatant.
Heck, if I made a dual-natured adept, I don't even have to pay points for astral perception and get build points from the flaw. It would suck to be that astrally vulnerable for the first few runs, but on first initiation, you can pick up masking and be much less obtrusive.
[edit] Forgot to mention that I will be going home to BFE where there is no internet over winter break. Don't take my absence as a concession, Cynic.
More or less unrelated side note: Shockwave_IIc, you were absolutely right 
And another minor nitpick - everything listed by the sam as "better ears", the adept can get as well.
The spatial recognizer might be a tad iffy, but the premise is completely justifiable by canon and I've yet to have a GM veto it as an accepted sense power.
-Siege
The spatial recognizer might be a tad iffy, but the premise is completely justifiable by canon and I've yet to have a GM veto it as an accepted sense power.
-Siege
cynic, are you insane? which part of SR3 page 282, where it describes ultrasound goggles, did you not read? and how is the sam going to get 'beter' ears than an adept, who can get five levels of select sound filter for 0.25pp? an adept can get any mod a sam can get, and the adept can get it cheaper.
besides which, the sam would have to stage that same damage from the superbright flash, unless the sam sets the flash off from more than 30m away--and, again, what's keeping the adpept from using a superflash? superflashes are not a sam-only weapon, anyone can use them.
besides which, the sam would have to stage that same damage from the superbright flash, unless the sam sets the flash off from more than 30m away--and, again, what's keeping the adpept from using a superflash? superflashes are not a sam-only weapon, anyone can use them.
Eventually, the anti-anti-adept-samaurai-adept will just be an equal sammie with adept powers when cheaper than cyberware. However, that won't quite work. The high cost for being an adept will result in it losing something, probably willpower (which the mundane opponent skimped on as well since it's only built to kill adepts) so they can both be taken down by one manaball.
You pay 25 BP for more character advancement options. The adept can still get ware, but the mundane will have that 25 BP to spend elsewhere.
You pay 25 BP for more character advancement options. The adept can still get ware, but the mundane will have that 25 BP to spend elsewhere.
given. however, cynic's arguments are based in madness and a lack of research. i'm honor-bound to point out the flaws in his reasoning.
Yes, and I was bound to find some way to actually build a post around the term "anti-anti-adept-samaurai-adept" as soon as it came to mind when considering this barrage of questionable logic.
anti-anti-adept-samurai-adept is a fun phrase, i must admit.
I agree with part of what Cynic is saying, and disagree with the other part.
I do think that sammies tend to start out stronger in combat. They generally will have pumped-up physical Attributes, high Reaction and initiative, and various things that give them an advantage in ranged combat (smartlinks, cybereyes with all the goodies) and in melee combat (high Quickness to layer lots of armor, cyber that gives impact armor, cyber-implant weapons). Look at the sammie I did, and try to duplicate him with an adept:
Body: +6, Quickness: +3, Strength: +5, Improved Ability: 2 in Edged Weapons and Improved Ability: 1 in Athletics, Pentjak Silat, Shotguns, and Stealth; +7 Reaction, which is the equivalent of Improved Reflexes: 1; and 4 levels of Mystic Armor. Setting aside the fact that an adept wouldn't be able to improve the Attributes that high, the cost for the above would be 20.5 Power Points.
I don't think this makes adepts underpowered, though. With powers alone, they are at least two-trick, not one-trick, ponies. And they are much, much easier to upgrade. As Fortune pointed out, their roles are not limited solely by their power points, either. They can have a wide variety of useful skills to round them out. Adepts also have a lot of abilities that cannot be duplicated by sammies. Sammies may be the kings of combat, but adepts are still pretty decent at it, and excel at certain roles such as face, scout, long gun, and anti-magic combattant.
I do think that sammies tend to start out stronger in combat. They generally will have pumped-up physical Attributes, high Reaction and initiative, and various things that give them an advantage in ranged combat (smartlinks, cybereyes with all the goodies) and in melee combat (high Quickness to layer lots of armor, cyber that gives impact armor, cyber-implant weapons). Look at the sammie I did, and try to duplicate him with an adept:
Body: +6, Quickness: +3, Strength: +5, Improved Ability: 2 in Edged Weapons and Improved Ability: 1 in Athletics, Pentjak Silat, Shotguns, and Stealth; +7 Reaction, which is the equivalent of Improved Reflexes: 1; and 4 levels of Mystic Armor. Setting aside the fact that an adept wouldn't be able to improve the Attributes that high, the cost for the above would be 20.5 Power Points.
I don't think this makes adepts underpowered, though. With powers alone, they are at least two-trick, not one-trick, ponies. And they are much, much easier to upgrade. As Fortune pointed out, their roles are not limited solely by their power points, either. They can have a wide variety of useful skills to round them out. Adepts also have a lot of abilities that cannot be duplicated by sammies. Sammies may be the kings of combat, but adepts are still pretty decent at it, and excel at certain roles such as face, scout, long gun, and anti-magic combattant.
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