emo samurai
Nov 13 2006, 10:44 PM
You have, like, an 85% chance of dying in the first year of spontaneous, untreatable cancer. Is it really worth it for that 1.5 points of deltaware?
Kagetenshi
Nov 13 2006, 10:51 PM
Yes.
~J
BishopMcQ
Nov 13 2006, 10:51 PM
For what it's worth, I don't think most people volunteer to become a cyberzombie. Or if they do, I doubt most people understand the consequences within the choice.
Your mileage may vary, but the way I run it, megacorps mislead, omit details, and spin-doctor information both internally and externally. Yes, there are occasionally times when the bare truth comes out, but I think those are the exceptions.
emo samurai
Nov 13 2006, 10:52 PM
Anyone ever play a cyberzombie?
Wounded Ronin
Nov 13 2006, 11:17 PM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
You have, like, an 85% chance of dying in the first year of spontaneous, untreatable cancer. Is it really worth it for that 1.5 points of deltaware? |
You'd better believe that it's worth it. That's a lot of 'ware!
Furthermore, how many PCs actually stay in play for a whole year in game-time? I never keep a given PC for that long; I always get bored and make a new one. So if I wanted to just go around obscenely ripping stuff up, I could just make a cyberzombie character and try to go for some kind of world record of NPCs killed in a one year gaming period.
imperialus
Nov 14 2006, 02:51 AM
I agree that a lot of CZ's don't realize that they are a cyberzombie until they wake up in recovery.
Personally the way I see it going down is a combination of factors.
1) Employee signs his doner card.
2) Employee doesn't realize that the the corperation he works for has a somewhat "liberal" interpretation of legally dead, simply extending it to include any state where traditional medical techniques offer no hope of recovery.
3) Employee gets him self very badly hurt, but his vitals get stablalized.
4) Corp airlifts him to a "special medical facility"
5) Docs go to work
6) Employee wakes up in recovery at which point they offer him the oppertunity to live or they pull the cyber out and put it in someone else.
Depending on the corp and how likely the employee is to say no the corp might try and get his concent as he's bleeding out, more than likely by asking something like. "Are you willing to undergo experimental medical procedures to stay alive? Here's a concent form and an NDA."
Kagetenshi
Nov 14 2006, 02:56 AM
The process is damaging, so it's likely that heavy implant would kill someone already in critical condition.
~J
fistandantilus4.0
Nov 14 2006, 02:56 AM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
Anyone ever play a cyberzombie? |
And friend and I wrote up a pair of them when I first got the cybertechnology book. Went with 10 million

cap, -6 essence. We ran them once, decided it was no fun. Everything died. Go figure. Crumpled them up and tossed 'em.
emo samurai
Nov 14 2006, 03:06 AM
What, you killed everything easily?
hyzmarca
Nov 14 2006, 03:14 AM
Remember the cybermancy process goes much more smoothly if the blood mages Sacrifice everyone that you know and love as part of the ritual.
It isn't exactly something that is commonly done by people who have friends or relatives. It is something done by people who think that they'll be better off as an monstrous killing machine with a life expectancy of only a few months.
emo samurai
Nov 14 2006, 03:21 AM
And why would corps make them? It's not like you can be too public with them, and there are much more cost-effective ways to defend your zero-zones.
adamu
Nov 14 2006, 03:26 AM
Well, there's the pure research angle. Sure, they are horribly impractical NOW, but without continuing to do it, you will never reach the point where they become more usable.
Not to mention all the spin-off tech and magical knowledge that can come of the primary research.
The research is the primary goal in the initial stages. If the corp happens to also get a cool cyber-zombie as a bonus, cool beans.
fistandantilus4.0
Nov 14 2006, 03:27 AM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
And why would corps make them? It's not like you can be too public with them, and there are much more cost-effective ways to defend your zero-zones. |
In case you want to kill Ryan Mercury. Really, by that reasoning, everyone should be making one!
Kagetenshi
Nov 14 2006, 03:29 AM
QUOTE (emo samurai @ Nov 13 2006, 10:21 PM) |
And why would corps make them? It's not like you can be too public with them, and there are much more cost-effective ways to defend your zero-zones. |
1) Research. Cyberzombies aren't just unstoppable soldiers, they're testing grounds.
2) Offense. One cyberzombie is significantly more mobile than just about anything else you can send in of equivalent power, likewise for n cyberzombies for small ns, and they're immune to jamming unlike the next best thing.
3) Fear. A row of Sentinel Ps inspires fear, a -8-Essence cyborg inspires terror.
~J
fistandantilus4.0
Nov 14 2006, 03:35 AM
4) Mundanes with magic resistance on remote control
hyzmarca
Nov 14 2006, 03:55 AM
The ultimate goal is cybermancy is to obliterate the distinction between meat and chrome altogether. Ghosts in the Machine are are part of the solution but there may be a difference between the mind and the metaphysical soul. Cybermancy is a soul trap, pure and simple. It prevents metahuman's living soul from going to the afterlife or vanishing to the ether or becoming a ghost or whatever it is that they do.
If they do it right, if they go far enough, they'll be able to transform fragile a metahuman into an immortal machine-man. You can never know if a Ghost in the Machine is really you or just a program with your memories, but cybermancers can guarantee that it is your actual metaphysical soul in that slab of metal if they could push their techniques far enough and work out the kinks. People would pay a lot of money for that kind of immortality.
Glyph
Nov 14 2006, 03:56 AM
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
4) Mundanes with magic resistance on remote control |
Number 4) doesn't really do it for me. Sure, they are slightly harder to affect with magic, TN-wise, but they are also permanently dual-natured and might have a lowered Willpower. I imagine that cyberzombies that are still under corporate control will have some sort of magical backup, otherwise they are too easy for a mage right out of char-gen to pick off.
Like everyone else has said, a cyberzombie is more of a guinee pig than a practical use of resources, and it's unlikely they were completely aware of or consensual to the procedure. Although there might be some people who would volunteer - generally emotionally dead psychopaths.
Actually, a low essense combined with 3 or so points of bioware will give you more advantages than most negative Essense builds. The only build that really lets a cyberzombie outclass the normal sammies, is the full arms/legs/skull/torso with lots of armor, combined with move-by-wire 4 (and optionally, an articulated arm holding some kind of nasty heavy weapon).
fistandantilus4.0
Nov 14 2006, 03:58 AM
QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
People would pay a lot of money for that kind of immortality. |
Roxborough comes to mind.
Glyph
Nov 14 2006, 04:00 AM
Oh, and by the way, the negative effects were probably largely added as a deterrent to PCs wanting to do it - like Emo said, why mess up your PC in a million ways and have him die of one of them in short order? It's actually a pretty brilliant way of giving the GM some new toys to play with, without technically forbidding them to PCs.
Dog
Nov 14 2006, 04:03 AM
People with nothing to live for would choose it. It'd be a very appealing form of suicide to some.
Depressed? Hate the world? Been working for the postal service? Don't take those pills yet! Sign up for the chance to take a few bastards down with you!
And you can bet that somewhere in the corp tower there's an office that screens personel files for exactly that kind of person.
jervinator
Nov 14 2006, 05:07 AM
I think that we can all agree that any intelligent, sane, rational, well-informed person would never choose to become a cyberzombie of their own free will. Somebody who is stupid, crazy, blinded by emotion, or was lied to about the side-effects might give their consent, though consent isn't required for the corps to turn you into a weak-willed CZ.
Kagetenshi
Nov 14 2006, 05:13 AM
QUOTE (jervinator) |
I think that we can all agree that any intelligent, sane, rational, well-informed person would never choose to become a cyberzombie of their own free will. |
Only if you circularly define anyone who chooses to become a cyberzombie of their own free will as not intelligent, sane, rational, or well-informed.
~J
Jack Kain
Nov 14 2006, 05:25 AM
My Friends call my murphy you call me robocop.
But seriously how far do you think someone might go to avoid death? for a chance at immortality. The "promise" of Cybermancy is to one day grant immortality a perk that only a few Elves from the 4th world have enjoyed.
Well I think a few imortal elves were born in the sixth world but it be hard to identify them form normal elves.
emo samurai
Nov 14 2006, 06:22 AM
I wouldn't imagine megacorps being so far-sighted with their research...
Jack Kain
Nov 14 2006, 06:23 AM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
I wouldn't imagine megacorps being so far-sighted with their research... |
Thats a joke right?
emo samurai
Nov 14 2006, 06:24 AM
What? How is it a joke? They're betting on something that probably won't work, and they're spending billions of nuyen on something that won't be mass-marketable for a hundred years. How isn't that farsighted, if extremely and inhumanly so?
toturi
Nov 14 2006, 06:33 AM
Actually they are spending billions of nuyen researching for a Essense limit breakthrough.
If they could find an effective and practical way around the Essense limit, that would be worth potentially trillions of nuyen. I suppose it is like researching jet engines and breaking the sound barrier, I read somewhere that it was considered impossible/impractical to break the sound barrier during WW2, but look at where we are today.
Besides, by game mechanics, it is quite possible for a cyberzombie to survive quite long.
Jack Kain
Nov 14 2006, 06:38 AM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
What? How is it a joke? They're betting on something that probably won't work, and they're spending billions of nuyen on something that won't be mass-marketable for a hundred years. How isn't that farsighted, if extremely and inhumanly so? |
I was remarking on the "I wouldn't imagine" not the farsighted.
Why does the research into immortality need to be mass-marketable?
You don't think immortality for themselves would be reason enougth to spend billions.
emo samurai
Nov 14 2006, 06:46 AM
I don't know... I always imagined the megacorps to be a sort of petty, bureaucratic evil at heart. I lost sight of the fact that they are artifice and stagnation incarnate.
Jack Kain
Nov 14 2006, 06:47 AM
Hey with petty, bureaucratic and evil at heart thats all you need to waste billions on projects that will only benfit the top executives.
emo samurai
Nov 14 2006, 06:51 AM
But I thought profit and power were the end goals. In reality, they are the denial of humanity and the persistence of its denial, perfectly symbolized by their cyberzombies.
At heart, they are anything but mundane; they are psychotic machinations utterly devoted to the dissolution of the human soul.
Jack Kain
Nov 14 2006, 07:08 AM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
But I thought profit and power were the end goals. In reality, they are the denial of humanity and the persistence of its denial, perfectly symbolized by their cyberzombies.
At heart, they are anything but mundane; they are psychotic machinations utterly devoted to the dissolution of the human soul. |
As David Xanatos once said. "What good are all the riches on earth if Fox and I can't enjoy them forever?"
So money and power are still the goals, but they hope to find immortality in cybermancy so they there power will be everlasting.
knasser
Nov 14 2006, 08:02 PM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
But I thought profit and power were the end goals. In reality, they are the denial of humanity and the persistence of its denial, perfectly symbolized by their cyberzombies.
At heart, they are anything but mundane; they are psychotic machinations utterly devoted to the dissolution of the human soul. |
Nah, they're about profit. Sure that can include dissolution of the human soul by default, as dedication to greed tends to do that. But with the exception of Aztechnology's board of directors, and the odd psychotic who makes it into upper management in other places, they're about profit. That's one of the things that makes them nasty, that so much misery and destruction comes about through simple old-fashioned avarice.
But that doesn't mean that cybermancy isn't an attractive use of resources, even if it is a long and uncertain path. It's the sort of thing that attracts investment - promises of breakthroughs, spin-off technologies, immortality, all that stuff. It doesn't matter if it never works right - for all that time they're developing it, they're attracting investment. And it works inside the corporation, too. Heading a project like that nets you fat salaries and bonuses. Even if it doesn't make profit for the company, there are divisions of the corp eating it up resources from the inside like a cancer, promising the directors that success is just around the next corner. Look at the music business. You have the RIAA terrifying the big labels with nightmare figures about music piracy that only they can stop. The reality is that they can't stop it, and P2P hasn't actually impacted on sales anywhere near as much as the RIAA pretends. And yet they are attracting lots of funding from the big labels which becomes fat salaries for the directors and employees. No profit is involved at all, and yet it goes on based on lies and promises. The same could be true for any Cybermancy department.
"The next one, boss. I promise you the next one will be sane."
Kagetenshi
Nov 14 2006, 08:26 PM
QUOTE (knasser) |
the odd psychotic who makes it into upper management in other places |
Psychosis = a break from reality. The reality they experience is different, and potentially wholly alien, from that varied-but-apparently-generally-consistant reality the rest of the world shares.
Psychopathy = fearlessness and the impulsivity resulting from it, lack of empathy, possibly some unknown degree of emotionlessness.
Impulsivity is certainly bad for executives, but confidence born of lack of fear combined with an inability to understand the harm one does to others can be a meaningful advantage in the workplace. Psychosis, on the other hand, is pretty much guaranteed to keep you out of middle management, let alone the boardroom.
~J
Wounded Ronin
Nov 15 2006, 03:10 AM
I wonder if it would be funny to add Duke Nukem into a game as a NPC and have him be some kind of cyberzombie whose looping image consists of beer commercials and Rambo III.
The best part about it would be having Duke Nukem Forever finally come out in the Shadowrun timeperiod.
Kagetenshi
Nov 15 2006, 03:19 AM
Duke Nukem Forever was finally finished in early 2029. The gold master was to be created on February 10th.
~J
Fortune
Nov 15 2006, 03:31 AM
QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
The gold master was to be created on February 10th. |
LMFAO!
Jack Kain
Nov 15 2006, 06:28 AM
QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
Duke Nukem Forever was finally finished in early 2029. The gold master was to be created on February 10th.
~J |
Fans would have to wait until 2071 for the next Duke Nukem game.
mattness pl
Nov 15 2006, 06:44 AM
QUOTE |
Why become a cyberzombie? |
You're existence pissing off neighborhood mages
Justin Cray
Nov 15 2006, 08:55 AM
QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
Duke Nukem Forever was finally finished in early 2029. The gold master was to be created on February 10th.
~J |
Solid gold!
KarmaInferno
Nov 15 2006, 01:37 PM
I dunno, as far as pure combat effectiveness, one would think a rigger with a heavy combat drone would be more effective.
You could even make it anthroform and have the company wage mages throw all sorts of anchored magic at it to beef it up. Like having enough combined armor to shrug off tactical nukes.
=)
-karma
Ed_209a
Nov 15 2006, 02:33 PM
If you need a jam-proof solution, I believe you can also cyber and equip 2-3 agents that will be just as effective, for no more than half the cost.
Kagetenshi
Nov 15 2006, 02:44 PM
And 2-3 times the personcount. That in and of itself can reduce effectiveness.
~J
toturi
Nov 15 2006, 03:02 PM
Consider that if you have a very strong Willed and high Body subject for cybermancy. He gets a bonus to his Willpower from cybermancy. So if he is at -1 Essense, he is effectively at +2 Willpower. At -1 Essense, he will not fail his Cancer test! And he makes his CDS at TN 4 every 6 months at Willpower +2! Consider a Willpower 6 subject and I doubt you''d be failing that test for a few years at least.
Kagetenshi
Nov 15 2006, 03:19 PM
Sample Cyberzombie loadout, all Deltaware:
IMS .125
Autoinjector .05
Move-by-wire IV 3.5
Dermal Sheath 3 1.05
+Ruthenium .1
+Image scanners (12) .3
Imagelink .1
Smartlink-2 sans eye display .2
Datajack .1
Um… I was going to keep going, and there's definitely more stuff that could go in here, but I'm too terrified by the fact that, providing you go Delta, you can get all this and still have .475 Essence remaining. I'm going to go sob in a corner now.
~J
emo samurai
Nov 15 2006, 03:31 PM
Hmmm...
I remember talk about how a cyberzombie costs as much as a tank. The thing is, though, a cyberzombie could dodge or take fire from a tank's machine gun, crush the gunner, and drop a grenade in the tank. He could, in fact, do this for multiple tanks, while a tank has nothing on him. It's kinda like Starship Troopers versus any conventional vehicle.
Kagetenshi
Nov 15 2006, 03:36 PM
Well, there's the Wallhacker. That was even out of chargen, so I'd imagine a CZ version of him would be even more horrifying.
I don't think anyone's going to be soaking hits from main guns, though.
~J
emo samurai
Nov 15 2006, 03:38 PM
Oh, no, but the machine gun? Probably.
Kyoto Kid
Nov 15 2006, 04:01 PM
QUOTE (emo samurai) |
You have, like, an 85% chance of dying in the first year of spontaneous, untreatable cancer. Is it really worth it for that 1.5 points of deltaware? |
...reaction of 20(+)? I think so.
Had a total munched out elf sammy in the group I ran with a 19 Reaction. Basically he would have a good bodycount going before anyone else got to shoot. Threw a couple of CZs against the team once. His character and one of the CZs tied in their initiative rolls. He proudly mentioned of his gawdawful reaction as I started gathering dice I simply responded "twenty"
The look on his face was worth all of the time it took to design the two CZs
Yeah, CZs may be weak against mana spells, but that's Only if the opposing mage gets to go first.
Jack Kain
Nov 15 2006, 06:07 PM
wouldn't it make more sense for a CZ to be strong againts manaspells concidering there far more machine then man?