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Larme

Feb 27 2008, 04:17 AM

This is a gleefully fun, unabashadly corny themed character. The basic concept is streetsam-cowgirl fusion. I got her by first setting out to make a badass cyberarm gunfighter, and then working backwards, saying "how could I make this sheet into something cool?"

[ Spoiler ]

CODE

Attributes     Natural(Augmented)/Natrual Max(Augmented Max)

Body  4/6(9)
Agility  3/8(12)
Reaction  5(7)/6(9)
Strength  2/6(9)
Charisma      3/6(9)
Intuition  5/6(9)
Logic  1/6(9)
Willpower  4/6(9)
Edge  6/7

Normal att BP: 190
Special att BP: 40
Total att BP:  230

Initiative 10(12)
Passes 1(3)

Essence 0.85/6

Skills

Automatics     (SMGs) 6(8)/6    +1 reflex recorder (23 dice total when shooting with right arm!)
Intimidation (Physical) 4(6)/6
Infiltration    (Urban) 3(5)/6
Perception    (Visual) 3(5)/6
Palming (Pickpocket) 1(3)/6
Dodge (Ranged) 4(6)/6
Pilot Ground Craft (Motorcycle) 1(3)/6
Clubs (Parrying) 4(6)/6
Heavy Weapons 1(3)/6

Skills BP:  126

Knowskills

Wetern Flatvids 4/6
Combat Biking 2/6
Cybertechnology    3/6
Miltech Manufacturers 3/6
Street Rumors 3/6
Runner Haunts 3/6

English: N

Knowskill BP: 18 free pts

Contacts

Fixer: L1/C3

Qualities

<<Positive Qualities>>

Exceptional Attribute (Agility) 20
Guts 5

<<Negative Qualities>>

Implant-Induced Immune Deficiency -10
Sensitive Neural Structure -5
SINner (Criminal) -10
Allergy (Uncommon, Moderate) (Horses) -10

Qualities BP:  -10

Cyberware

Wired Reflexes II Alpha

Cybereyes Rating 3 [12]
>Eye Light System [2]
>Low-Light Vision [2]
>Vision Enhancment 3 [3]
>Vision Magnification [2]
>Smartlink [3]

Obvious Cybertorso Alpha [10]
>Cyber Holster [7]
>Radar Sensor 1 [2]
>Body Upgrade 1 [1]

Obvious Right Cyberarm [15] - Avail 4
>Custom Agility 8 - Avail +5
>Agility Upgrade 4 [4]
>Cyberarm Gyromount [4]
>Cyberlimb Casemod - Avail +2
>Custom Body 4 - Avail +1
>Datajack [1]
>Final stats: Agility 12!, Body 4, Avail 12

Total cost: 154800
Total essence: 5

Bioware

Genetic Optimization (Agility)
Reflex Recorder- Automatics

Total cost: 55000
Total essence 0.3(0.15)

Total cyberbio cost: 209800
Total cyberbio essence cost: 5.15/6

Gear:

FN 5-7C Machine Pistol [i]High Noon Wynona[/i]
>Integral Smartlink [1 slot]
>Electronic Firing [2 slot]
>Custom Look 2 [1 slot]
>Skinlink [1 slot]
>Suppressor
>Melee Hardened [1 slot]
Weapon Personality (Heartless Gunslinger)
Quick-draw holster
10x FN 5-7C clips
200 ExEx machine pistol rounds

Ingram Supermach 100 [i]Dirtnap Annie[/i]
>Integral Smartlink [1 slot]
>Melee Hardened [1 slot]
>Gas Vent 3 [2 slots]
>Personalized Grip [1 slot]
>Custom Look 2 [1 slot]
Weapon Personality (Wild Rodeo Wrangler)
Sling
9x Extended Supermach Clips
360 ExEx SMG rounds
180 Stick n Shok SMG rouns

MGL-6 Last Rites Lucy
>Integral Smatlink [1 slot]
>Airburst Link
>Custom Look 2 [1 slot]
>Weapon Personality (Vigilante Priest)
6x HE minigrenades
6x IR Smoke minigrenades

Armor Vest (6/4)
>Nonconductive 6
>Fire Resistance 4
Half-body suit (+4/+1)

Meta Link
>OS: Vector Xim (s1,f1)
>Skinlink

Earbuds
>Audio Enhance 3
>Skinlink

H-D Scorpion Sunset Sal
Pimped Ride 1

Self Cleaning Cowgirl Outfit

Squatter 3mos

Cyber/bio/gear BP: 50

Aaand a rough background.

[ Spoiler ]

Dallas, born Leanne Hostetler, was a privileged youth growing up in the cosmopolitan upper crust of Houston. She was a rebellious teen, however, and got into drugs and petty crime almost as much out of boredom as to piss of Mommy and Daddy. Her parents tried everything - counseling, boot camp, cutting off her accounts, but the strong-willed young lady was on an inexorable path to self destruction.

Dallas' idols, from the start, were the hero bandits of the Old West flatvids, which are still relatively popular in Texas. As a teenager filled with angst, she found those around her to be hypocrites, conformists--soulless raiders who didn't deserve the riches they had. In contrast, Dallas saw the Wild West's outlaws as the perfect individualists, taking what they pleased from the fatcats who never worked a real day in their lives, living by no law but their own.

After Dallas' parents eventually disowned her at age 16, she became a drifter. She taught herself how to shoot, and how to swagger and talk like a cowboy. She took a meandering course northwards and westwards through CAS and UCAS, ocassionally meeting up with other scofflaws and going on minor crime sprees. She supported herself with the proceeds of armed robberies and shoplifting, though in reality she paid for most of her expenses (and those of her fair weather friends) with substantial assets that her parents had put in her name as a tax dodge, and which they hadn't been able to take away from her.

After two years as a mock outlaw, Dallas took part in a daring heist with some other smalltime criminals in Denver, which involved waylaying and pillaging and truck full of high end computer parts. The police were expecting it and nabbed them, however. Without the expensive legal help her parents had provided in her teen years, Dallas' past crimes, combined with her most recent caper, sent her right to the slammer.

Dallas spent her formative years in prison, from the age of 18 to 21, learning how to misbehave professionally. Wanting to distance herself from her snooty past, she told inmates that she was from Dallas, rather than Houston. Combined with her cowgirl affectations, this earned her the second part of her current nickname. Not only did Dallas learn better street smarts in prison, she got a connection with a street level fixer in Seattle. Dallas had heard inmates talk about how Seattle was essentially a "screwed up frontier town," (SR4 p.25) and a haven for criminals. Drawn to anything resembling the frontier, and armed with her new connection, Dallas made her way to the Metroplex to get down to some serious outlawing.

Dallas, through her new fixer, poured everything left in her bank accounts into cybering herself up. She had studied up on cybertech and miltech in prison, and knew exactly what she wanted - a souped up cyberarm anchored to a cybertorso that would make her a deadly gunfighter practically overnight. Feeding her Wild West obsession, she opted for the "Chrome Cowboy" casemod, which has a gloss black finish with faux screws where the joints are along with ornate golden trim, clearly invoking a sort of Old West steampunk look. She had a custom message printed on the inside of the forearm reading "DEAD OR ALIVE," so that the wording would be visible when she pointed her gun at people. The distinctive, deadly arm earned her the full nickname Deadhand Dallas.

She has just one set of clothing, an expensive self-cleaning cowgirl outfit. Her weapons are modded to go with her arm, with their names emblazoned across their barrels, each one with its own Wild West themed personality software. Because horses are rather impractical in metropolitan Seattle, and because she is ironically quite allergic to them, Dallas' steed is her chopper Sunset Sal, pimped to go with the rest of her gear.

Having learned the hard way that petty crimes don't pay, once she had modded herself up, Dallas took up work as a shadowrunner. Her flamboyant style has generally relegated her to wetwork and half-suicidal runs where the corps want publicity, which is just fine with her. But over the years, her gunfighting has become more and more impressive, to the point where some teams have been willing to work with her on regular jobs despite her distinctiveness. She doesn't regard her current status as a denaible asset as a compromise of her principles, since she's still her own boss and survives on her own merits, rather than relying on guards and an extesnsive legal system like the rich do.

Comments? I'd appreciate anything about improving her numbers wise (though I think she's already twinked out enough, really) and anything you think would add to her theme. I shouldn't need to mention it, but no flames please. Flames include "cowboys are not part of shadowrun noob lulz," to make that much clear.

Matsu Kurisu

Feb 27 2008, 07:15 AM

Looks really good to me. Ties in well with the background. And looks like she could be fun to play!
No real mechanics suggestions appart from why have the Improved agility & Genetic Optimization (Agility) when you have the cyber torso/arm?

Kyoto Kid

Feb 27 2008, 07:29 AM

...hmmmm. [drums fingers on tabletop]

Looks a lot like a chromed version of the Short One down to the logic attribute and interest knowledge in old Western Flatvids.

...but shoot and tarnation, a cowgirl allergic to horses?

Seriously, the character looks pretty good though she has little room left to grow in her primary abilities. Out of the box she can easily outshoot my Bushido Cowgirl, but getting through security checkpoints could be an issue with all that obvious chrome. While it makes sense with all the 'ware, the Immune Deficiency quality can really come back to haunt the character as she only has her body -2 to roll against diseases and toxins (+ 1/2 her armour against weapon toxins like Narcojet and Neurostun). I'd definitely ditch the fire resistance on the vest (though I'd get a duster styled lined coat instead as it fits the wild west gunslinger image plus it grants extra conceal) and get chem resistance instead. Also look at the Vashon Steampunk armoured clothing (7/7 for the full ensemble). A bit expensive, but considering the image she wants to portray, I could easily see her wearing that. Now if her body were 5 she could easily wear that and the Form Fit for a total of 11/8. leaving her one encumbrance point remaning.

...and get she can't be a true cowgirl without a Stetson.

If she has a criminal SIN she most definitely needs a Fake SIN or two and licenses that cover her cyberware/firearms as she is packing a lot obvious and restricted ware.

I do like the "six shooter" GL. I'd think about getting some flashbangs as well.

I also agree with the radar sensor 1. Just enough to "see" those confounded invisible sidewinder mages.

I notice she only has 190 BPs in her base attributes, I'd switch 1 BP of edge for Strength (gives her a base 2 DV if she does go on the offensive) or better yet, Body (more resistant to diseases/toxins and can wear more armour without penalty). The palming skill may seem nice from a concept point but I think the BPs could be better used elsewhere such as Etiquette 1 (Street). As a matter of fact I'd drop another point of Edge and use it for getting etiquette 3 (and if you can dig up another point, specialise in Street).

Oh and contacts, this lady needs better and more contacts. or she'll be totally useless during legwork & you'll be sitting around bored (dealt with that while playing my boxer Adept Hurricane Hannah. When it fame to legwork HH went off to the gym and I picked up a book to read).

Dodge is okay, but you have to use your full action ans go full defence to use it. you could shave 4 B BPs there ad still have an effective dodge pool The dodge skill offers no bonus to actively dodging when you are also shooting.

Again, I like the concept, bit I think she could be scaled back a little to flesh out some other areas and still be very effective.

[Edit]

Matsu Kurisu: In order for her to have her Modified Agility cap at 12 she needs both the Genetic Optimisation and Exceptional attribute (8 x 1.5 = 12).

Abbandon

Feb 27 2008, 10:20 AM

I thought customized attributes on cyberarms were capped at Racial Max ie 6, 7 since she has exceptional attribute?? Does genetic optimization also raise your racial max attribute?? I would not let exceptiona attribute or genetic opt to affect your cyberarm stats lol. That makes no sense. Those are benefits for your meat body. So I would be capping you at cyberarm agility 6, agility upgrade 4 = 10. And if anyone agree's with that part then they might also agree to only goto 9 which would allow you to ditch your torso(until later hehehe).

Hmmm I dont know what would be an appropiate strength level but if your using automatics and stuff wont that involve both arms(which would suck)?? If your strength was 6+ I'd probably let you go all terminator one handing assault rifles and stuff..

The horse allergy although funny would make me mad lol, when the hell would you be in close qaurters with horses? Most times when you need a horse your going to be out in the wide open with the wind in your face and not get affected at all... What if she had a phobia of horses. moderate would be -4 to all dice pool while she can see horses and must make a willpower + charisma(2) test or run away. Or she could have a phobia of thunder/loud base sounds because she has nightmares about getting caught in a stampede and trampled to death. That would be pretty cool to less it to a mild phobia of loud base sounds and also take a mild phobia of crowds of people. These would trigger panick attacks and flashbacks of her nightmare of being trampled to death by a stampede. And they would both add up to the same thing. -10bp

Hmmmm everything else looks fine. I am not really feeling the rich parents, troubled kid thing. Thats all to common....I have that same thing for my twin gun mystic adept.

Its nice to see one armed characters hehehe. I just finished my one armed samurai chick Lily if you look around here lol.

samuelbeckett

Feb 27 2008, 10:27 AM

Yeah, Genetic Optimization does raise you racial max and augmented max, and racial max is the limit for customised cyberlimbs, so technically it is all legal.

Abbandon

Feb 27 2008, 10:58 AM

Tell me how genetics have jack or shit to do with your mechanical arm ?? Exceptional attribute I think falls under the same thing but if someone bitched enough I would accept that it referred to an exceptionally agile cyberarm lol. In which case her meat body left arm would NOT benefit from it.

samuelbeckett

Feb 27 2008, 11:13 AM

QUOTE (Abbandon @ Feb 27 2008, 10:58 AM)

Understand where you are coming from, just pointing out that is how the RAW works - perhaps it is supposed to be a measure of how well the meat anchor point stands up to the strain from the limb (although Cybertorso would kinda throw that theory).

If you wanted to question anything, question the limit at all - what is to stop me fitting a Cyberlimb with any Strength or Agility I like? If your logic is that the mechanical arm is not judged by the limitations of your meat body, then anyone should be able to have any custom stats they like.

I figure if a human has Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimization then effectively they would have the build of an Ork, and hence a better structure to hang super strong Cyberlimbs off.

Ryu

Feb 27 2008, 11:34 AM

QUOTE (samuelbeckett @ Feb 27 2008, 11:27 AM)

Yeah, Genetic Optimization does raise you racial max and augmented max, and racial max is the limit for customised cyberlimbs, so technically it is all legal.

No on one aspect: the NATURAL racial max applies to customised attribute ratings. Got that wrong myself, recently.

samuelbeckett

Feb 27 2008, 11:40 AM

QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 27 2008, 11:34 AM)

No on one aspect: the NATURAL racial max applies to customised attribute ratings. Got that wrong myself, recently.

Quite right, but both Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimization raise the natural max for a character. So a human with both has a natural max of 8 on their attribute, allowing a Cyberlimb to be customised with an 8 in that attribute.

Ryu

Feb 27 2008, 01:02 PM

QUOTE (samuelbeckett @ Feb 27 2008, 12:40 PM)

Ah, thats right. Didn´t see he had both, and wanted to clarify because I know the natural max rather than augmented max - info can be missed.

That said, the exeptional ability quality is never a good buy. And this has to be the least efficient way of using it. Is the 18th dice of your Automatics pool worth 20 BP?

Larme

Feb 27 2008, 01:55 PM

@Kyoto: Thanks for the tips! I think you're right that if I bother with charisma 3, I should have at least one other social skill. Dallas would still be a decent pickpocket if she had to default, but not so for etiquette.

Now that I look at it, it's pretty retarded of me to have a vest instead of a lined coat - the coat fits the character and has the same stats. On chemical restistance, it's kinda lame that it only protects against contact poison. But I think you're right that it's better to have than fire resistance. Though I could just stick chemical resistance on my form fitting.

Maybe I'll also drop dodge and clubs by one point each to get a handful more contacts. But I'm not raising strength to 4 - I just have clubs for defense, but if I ever had to beat someone up in melee I'd be using my cyberarm, so my body's main attributes wouldn't matter. Though my arm could accept one point of strength mod if I found the money.

@Abbandon: I agree that the RAW is kinda stupid and doesn't make sense, but it's also kinda important for balance. Cyberarms would be pretty lame if they were limited to your race's normal augmented max. If your cyberarm can't have more than a 9 as a human, you'd never want one. It costs a boatload of essence and money, and you can get a 9 really easily using nice cheap bioware. But limiting it to the racial augmented max also balances it, because if I want to hit 12 in an awesome stat like agility, I have to spend a lot of points on exceptional ability and genetic optimization.

EDIT: Wait, what am I talking about?? If I wear a lined coat, nobody will see my arm during combat! Can't have that... I can always wear a normal clothing jacket and some gloves when I want to hide it, but I'd like to flaunt it whenever possible.

Abbandon

Feb 27 2008, 02:39 PM

No I was saying that custom limb base attributes can not go past racial max(6), atleast thats what I have been told. Sure once you start adding enhancements I agree it can go above 9 to 13 (max enhancement rating is 7) although availability caps at R4 enhancements.

-My first point was that I dont agree that exceptional attribute or genetic mods would affect a cyber limbs base attributes.
-My second point was that if you chose to have a base agility of 6 and only used an R3 agility enhancement you would have no need for a torso and could get back money and a lot of essense..(until you have the opportunity to get R5-R7 agility enhancements.)

If you had a nice GM you could take the line coat and you and your gm could agree that it has had its right sleeve removed but still has the same stats then your arm could show or it could be cut off at the elbow. How in the heck will you get to your torso holster? BBB says armor can come in any shape and form you see fit.... I'd take a long style armored jacket.

samuelbeckett

Feb 27 2008, 02:50 PM

QUOTE (Abbandon @ Feb 27 2008, 02:39 PM)

Abbandon, understand your points - however they would be houserules, the RAW is clear that Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimization both increase natural racial max, customised Cyberlimbs can be built with stats equal to natural racial max and enhancements cannot exceed augmented racial max without redlining the limb. So a human with Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimization can have a natural max of 8, a custom Cyberlimb with an 8, and would be limited to R4 enhancements (as augmented racial max would be 12).

Good point on the Cybertorso though - given that an Agility of 11 is possible without it (8 base with R3 enhancement), seems like a waste of nuyen and Essence just to get 1 more point.

Larme

Feb 27 2008, 02:53 PM

Exceptional attribute and genetic optimization raise your natural max, which raises your augmented max. But cyberlimbs cannot exceed your augmented max. So a human could never have an agility 13 limb. My natural max agility is 8, so my custom limb can have up to base agility 8, and a max agility 12, since 12 is my new augmented max. You might think that's unrealistic, but I'm following RAW.

What you're saying would have to be a house rule - that a limb can't go above your natural max, and exceptional attribute and genetic optimization don't count, BUT the limb can exceed your augmented max no problem. That seems like an ok house rule. In fact, it would be cheaper to make my agility 12 arm under your rules. But it's not what the RAW says. And, as I often say, adjusting RAW just to fit a sense of realism is a slippery slope. The vast majority of rules are tuned in favor of game balance and against realism, so you'd have your work cut out for you. It's more trouble than it's worth to arbitrarily, one by one, single out unrealistic rules and change them just to suit your sense of what's realistic. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It might not make a lot of sense, but it seems to be pretty well balanced, so I wouldn't recommend tinkering with it.

On the whole jacket thing, you have a point. But I think I'd rather have a vest, since I see the character weraring a Wild West type fringed vest over a T-shirt, with no jacket most of the time. Jackets would just be for when she needs to cover her arm up. As for the torso holster, I figured it could be vertical in the center of her chest, and she'd have to reach down her shirt to get to it. Or it could be horizontal around her lower back, so she could reach back and under her shirt that way, too. It takes a simple action to get a weapon out of a cyber holster anyway, so I don't think that's too much of a stretch. The holster is really only for discreet runs where I can't carry obvious weapons -- in places like the Barrens where displaying weaponry is ok, she'll have Dirnap Annie slung across her back and High Noon Wynona in her quick draw holster. Last Rites Lucy would probably be tucked into the cyberholster just for safekeeping.

samuelbeckett

Feb 27 2008, 03:01 PM

QUOTE (Larme @ Feb 27 2008, 02:53 PM)

On the whole jacket thing, you have a point. But I think I'd rather have a vest, since I see the character weraring a Wild West type fringed vest over a T-shirt, with no jacket most of the time. Jackets would just be for when she needs to cover her arm up. As for the torso holster, I figured it could be vertical in the center of her chest, and she'd have to reach down her shirt to get to it. Or it could be horizontal around her lower back, so she could reach back and under her shirt that way, too. It takes a simple action to get a weapon out of a cyber holster anyway, so I don't think that's too much of a stretch. The holster is really only for discreet runs where I can't carry obvious weapons -- in places like the Barrens where displaying weaponry is ok, she'll have Dirnap Annie slung across her back and High Noon Wynona in her quick draw holster. Last Rites Lucy would probably be tucked into the cyberholster just for safekeeping.

Aha, had forgotten about the Cyberholster, hence the need for the torso.

Kyoto Kid

Feb 27 2008, 04:02 PM

QUOTE (Larme)

Maybe I'll also drop dodge and clubs by one point each to get a handful more contacts. But I'm not raising strength to 4 - I just have clubs for defense, but if I ever had to beat someone up in melee I'd be using my cyberarm, so my body's main attributes wouldn't matter. Though my arm could accept one point of strength mod if I found the money.

...Natural Strength also comes into play for climbing and gettin' the hell outta Dodge (sorry, movement). Her cyberarm won't be of much help there. Since she has no Atheltic skills she will be defaulting whenever she needs to push her movment and with fewer dice the chance for a glitch ore even critical glitch goes up. As I mentioned a better choice would be to up her natural Body to 5 then she can can wear better armour + the form fit with no penalty. Personally I like themed characters., and that is why I suggested the SteamPunk armoured clothing (Arsenal). It also has a vest as well so she can still show off her shiny chrome when she wishes. The real benefit is that it has better Impact protection than the standard vest alone. Impact counts against various other types of attacks than just melee (like chemicals & some indirect spells).

Another thing to consider is adding some armour to her cybertorso. That stacks with worn armour and does not count against encumbrance (she should have enough capacity left over for a couple points worth).

Larme

Feb 27 2008, 05:59 PM

QUOTE (samuelbeckett @ Feb 27 2008, 09:50 AM)

Good point on the Cybertorso though - given that an Agility of 11 is possible without it (8 base with R3 enhancement), seems like a waste of nuyen and Essence just to get 1 more point.

OMG HOLY CRAP YOU'RE RIGHT!

I missed that line of your post earlier... The way it worked was I first sought to make an arm with custom agility 6, and rating 6 agility upgrade, with a cybertorso. But you can't get upgrades higher than 4 because their avail is too high. So I figured out that I it would be better to have custom agility 8 along with 4 in upgrades, which would require a torso. But I never considered that 1 extra die is NOT worth a pile of nuyen and the 1.5 base essence cost... Nor is it worth it just to get a cyberholster. Agility 11 would still leave me with 22 SMG dice and 20 for machine pistols.

The real question would be what to do with all that spare yen... Maybe pump it into bioware? I certainly have bio essence to spare -- but what is there that would be worthwhile for this character?

Also, now I'm starting to reconsider specializing in SMGs. I like the whole old/new fusion that I get with automatics, but for the vast majority of opponents I think the machine pistol will be good enough with 22 dice. And for someone who's hard to hit, the -2 dice won't matter - even a mega dodge adept will have trouble dodging a high velocity wide full burst. The maxed out dodge adept will be looking at something like 6 reaction, 6(

dodge(ranged), 6 combat sense and 3 improved ability (dodge) will have 23 dice to dodge -- they'll get hit even by a long burst. I think as a cowgirl, I should be more spec'd in pistols, even if they are ultra modern machine pistols.

Kyoto Kid

Feb 27 2008, 06:48 PM

...Orthoskin +1 B/+1 I x rating which is stackable with worn armour and no added encumbrance penalty.
...I would suggest Muscle Toner but not sure how that would figure in with the Cyberarm (never had a character with cyberlimbs).
...she could get that one die back with a single skill Reflex Recorder.

Considering she's into Cybertech , I would also look into Skillwires 3. They are fairly inexpensive (both in essence &

) and could free up BPs.

Also an Attention Co-processor is nice as it adds to all Perception tests and stacks with her eye mods (she'd have the true "deadeye")

Yeah, the machine pistols make more sense to the concept of a true gunslinger, though I'm still partial to the Warhawk because of it's raw punching power and of course appearance (however to be really effective with is is to have two, the Ambidexterity Quality and fire each in alternating fashion rather than together, wouldn't work for Dallas).

Ryu

Feb 27 2008, 07:16 PM

QUOTE (Larme @ Feb 27 2008, 06:59 PM)

So I figured out that I it would be better to have custom agility 8 along with 4 in upgrades, which would require a torso. But I never considered that 1 extra die is NOT worth a pile of nuyen and the 1.5 base essence cost... Nor is it worth it just to get a cyberholster. Agility 11 would still leave me with 22 SMG dice and 20 for machine pistols.

Repeat question: Is one die "worth" 20 BP + the investment needed to make use of the potential? I´d even say "No" if you got general-utility agility. All you get out of it is a higher augmented max. The kind of firearms pool you generate is only useful if you intend to use two SMGs, but then I´d have overlooked the second cyberarm. Or is this a min/maxing-lesson instead of real character building?

Larme

Feb 27 2008, 09:16 PM

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Feb 27 2008, 01:48 PM)

) and could free up BPs.

Also an Attention Co-processor is nice as it adds to all Perception tests and stacks with her eye mods (she'd have the true "deadeye")

Orthoskin might be ok, but I can barely afford it... I just can't tolerate how much money it costs for just a single point of armor.

Muscle Toner wouldn't really help, I've set it up so that I can do all my agility skills with one arm, so the rest of me doesn't really need more agility. Muscle toner doesn't affect the cyberarm, at all, in case you were wondering.

And I already have a reflex recorder in Automatics. But attention coprocessor is a great idea! Definitely a good investment for someone who depends on shooting first. Skillwires are something to think about, but I'm almost running out of places to put BP on Dallas. I'm more starved for cash and essence than anything else right now.

QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 27 2008, 02:16 PM)

Geez, next time don't be so polite about it

You make a good point though. If I didn't bother with exceptional attribute and just went for the more affordable optimization, I'd still be looking at 6(

skill + 2 smartlink + 10 agility + 1 reflex recorder, or 21 dice. I was really focusing on being the "best," not making the most optimized build possible.

But I'm not so sure about high pools only being useful for dual fisting. If I took my current pool and used if for dual fisting, I'd be looking at 20 dice (no smartlink) split into 10's, and then modifiers applied... So if there was smoke, or glare, or something like that, I'd end up about as good as a pretty cruddy shadowrunner, only shooting twice as many times. Meh... If my opponents are sucky enough to get hit by a dice pool of 10, why do I need to bother with dual fisting? It's maybe a little faster, but that's about it.

There are, IMO, 3 reasons to dual fist, and none of them involve splitting pools. 1) use two non-high velocity SMGs so you can fire two long bursts per action phase; 2) use two single shot weapons, like Super Warhawks, so the single shot problem doesn't affect you, and 3) use a gun in one hand and a melee weapon in the other so you can shoot or melee whenever you want without wasting an action to switch weapons. Of course, since you can know clubs and have melee hardened guns, the third one is pretty pointless.

I think you've convinced me to reevaluate. Now I'm thinking about dual Warhawks, with longarms for backup...

I did just notice something disturbing though... A quickdraw requires you to roll Pistols + Reaction (3), even though it states that it works with 'pistol sized' weapons. Does that mean you need Krav Maga or Iajutsu to quickdraw even a machine pistol? Or do you use the pistols skill to quickdraw a pistol sized weapon even if it isn't a pistol?

Abbandon

Feb 28 2008, 12:29 AM

They were probably being mean and saying you could only quickdraw pistols.

If you took out the torso I would consider taking a leg! You could put a holster in it and wear some really sexy cutout pants. You could also use the leg for unarmed combat to kick or knee guys in the crotch or knee lol.

Once you replace wired reflexes with synaptic boosters in game that would let you get a torso again and boost your arm and leg.

Oh and your double fisting....unless you plan on getting two arms... you agility is going to be left arm + right arm/2(before the split).

Abbandon

Feb 28 2008, 12:38 AM

pg 335. BBB Cyberlimb Enhancements: "These values can only be be augmented by cyberlimb enhancements, enhancments from other cyber/bio systems have NO EFFECT." IE genetic optimization .............

I dont have augment so I dont know the rules for custom limbs and stuff.

Larme

Feb 28 2008, 02:23 AM

What the BBB is saying there is that the only way to increase the attribute of a cyberlimb is to use cyberlimb upgrades, i.e. muscle toner doesn't increase your cyberarm's agility. Nobody is claiming that genetic optimization increases the attribute of a limb. What it does do is increase your natural maximum, which is relevant according to Augmentation rules. But that rule you're quoting is not relevant here unless you bend the words "no effect" drastically out of context. Honestly, you should probably refrain from trying to tell us what the rules are when you don't even have access to all of them.

Kyoto Kid

Feb 28 2008, 02:37 AM

...I will concede that I am still not up on all the rules for cyberlimbs as (again) I have never played a character who had one. I did work on the design of a tongue & cheek themed character named Rosie the Cyber Riveter, but she manly was set up to use the modular tool attachments like the Jackhammer, Nail Gun, and Cutting Torch.

...what, that lil' ol' wall stopping you? Outta the way sugar...
--Rosie

Larme

Feb 28 2008, 03:26 AM

I've looked at the rules carefully, and they support me. There is no reason to distinguish between an elf with natural agility max 7 and a human with genetic optimization. They are effectively the same as far as cyberlimb customization is concerned.

I toyed with making Dallas into a dual-wielding character, but ultimately decided against it. First of all, it would force her to get a second arm, which would eat up everything I save by losing the torso. And she'd probably need a new nickname, and I like her current one... While I know that 22 dice is excessive, I don't think it's pointless. When trying to hurt something tough, like a spirit or a troll, you need those extra dice.

I did improve her effeciency, though -- I swapped exceptional attribute for Aptitude. I kept genetic optimzation, and made my arm 10 agility, losing the torso. I also decided to switch to pistols for a little bit more traditional cowgirl theme. While machine pistols fit her pretty well, I don't think that SMGs or assault rifles make too terribly much sense for her. And comparing machine pistols to heavy pistols, heavy pistols generally win. The only time you'd rather have a machine pistol is when the target has exactly 2 more dice to dodge than you have to shoot, so you need that wide burst... Pretty rare. I ended up going for a pimped out Super Warhawk, modded with an extended cylinder and semiauto firing. With 7(9) pistols(revolvers) +1 reflex recorder + 10 agility + 2 smartlink I have 22 still.

I back that up with a Morrisey Elan for stealth, and an MGL-6 for emergency panic mode.

With my extra essence and money, I got an attention coprocessor and Reakt. I can't believe how awesome Reakt is, and how little recognized it is - 30k and .4 essence for +2 to all reaction defense tests! And unlike most of the other transgenics, it has no drawback... And unlike most reaction enhancing things, it stacks with everything. That puts me at 4(6) dodge(ranged) + 1 reflex recorder + 5(7) reaction +2 Reakt, or 16 ranged dodge dice, which is not too shabby. And I got firefight at 2, with the +1 to melee dodge. I figre it's not really worth my points to have close combat when I could just dodge. The only time a melee skill is necessary for a shooter is when the shooter's dodge is based on gymnastics and full defensing against range will leave them helpless against melee attacks.

Whipstitch

Feb 28 2008, 03:40 AM

Sad thought: I looked at this character in detail for a fair bit before realizing where I remember it from.

Larme

Feb 28 2008, 03:51 AM

That is kinda sad, considering I posted her on New Seattle like two days ago.

Old age is catching up with you

Nostalgic Jester

Feb 28 2008, 10:43 AM

Does she have to be human? Otherwise she could be an elf: that gives you agility 8/8 and 11/12. I think Reakt is only useful if you already maxed out Reaction or are very pressed on essence, otherwise Reaction Enhancers are better (no one goes by the FAQ thing of them not being compatible with Wired Reflexes, it´s just too stupid).

Larme

Feb 28 2008, 11:46 AM

Don't wanna be an elf. I just think it would feel really wrong for the character to be a dandelion sniffer. It might be ok in that it would give her something to fight about, as in "NOBODY calls me a keebler!" But I don't see it. And I think I've determined that 8 max agility is actually not that worthwhile when you're talking about cyberarms, because to get to 12 you need to waste a lost of cash and essence on a cybertorso. And spending the extra points to even get to 11 is kinda meh, when 10 is just about as good. With 22 dice and 6 edge, I don't think she needs to worry about missing anybody... If Dallas uses edge on a pistol shot, she'll have 28 exploding dice, which will normally cause 4 rerolls, for about one extra hit, for... 9 hits, on average

And even if I do meet a dodge crazy adept that I can't hit, the fact that I force them to full defense over and over again means I win... Someone who's just dodging can't fight me, and eventually they will have to run away or end up getting unlucky and getting shot.

As for Reakt, I plan to follow the official FAQ. It doesn't bother me too much really... I can see the point of it, which is giving players some kind of reason to take move by wires. I think that 'maxing out' on any attribute in chargen is just silly. React, at 30k, costs me 6 BP worth of money. But to go from 5 reaction to 6 would cost 25. Not a good deal.

Now I just wish I could find someone to draw a picture of this character!

Abbandon

Feb 28 2008, 12:26 PM

talk to Fuchs he makes 3d computer renders which look awesome.

Nostalgic Jester

Feb 28 2008, 12:51 PM

To each his own, though don´t forget to apply your 20% discount towards Reakt if you go that way.

Kyoto Kid

Feb 28 2008, 04:31 PM

QUOTE (Larme @ Feb 28 2008, 03:46 AM)

...good move, sound's like she & the Short One have a little more in common.

Also REAKT is an excellent choice. Thinking of getting that next for my Matrix Specialist so she is just that much better in the Meat World. And yes, keep her one handed. I love the concept.

Nostalgic Jester: She needs the Genetic Heritage Quality for the discount.

QUOTE (Larme)

Now I just wish I could find someone to draw a picture of this character!

...send her description to Squinky. He does excellent work.

f you want a 3d render in Daz, I'd PM Fuchs.

Feshy

Feb 28 2008, 06:53 PM

QUOTE

There are, IMO, 3 reasons to dual fist, and none of them involve splitting pools. 1) use two non-high velocity SMGs so you can fire two long bursts per action phase; 2) use two single shot weapons, like Super Warhawks, so the single shot problem doesn't affect you, and 3) use a gun in one hand and a melee weapon in the other so you can shoot or melee whenever you want without wasting an action to switch weapons.

Only the first reason buys you anything now that Arsenal is out. It gets you +1 DV over the supermachine gun option.

Bayonets or melee hardening let you turn your weapon into a melee weapon as well (though you could just take unarmed instead...)
Super Warhawks can be modified to fire SA.

Even recoil isn't an issue that requires two hands any more.

Recoil for most submachine guns can be almost negated with:
Auto-Adjusting under-barrel weight (-2), Gas Vent (-3), customized grip (-1) gives you long bursts without recoil penalties. Add in a folding stock and a heavy barrel, and you take a measly 1 die hit for full auto. Swapping the auto-adjusting under-barrel weight for a cyberarm gyromount is a solution to that 1 die for the very hardcore, as is buying a weapon with innate recoil compensation. So is talking your game master into the extra recoil from strength optional rule. Super machine guns lose the gas vent, but get an innate 3 points of recoil. They suffer more on FA due to the increased rate of fire, but can fire two long bursts without penalty.

Two-handing it could let you split your dicepool and use two super machine guns to get four long bursts... but if you're so outclassed you need four long bursts, you probably still need your dice pool. Unless you're just trying to cut a hole in the wall big enough for your troll to fit through...

I guess it could also help keep you from running out of ammo with your Warhawk. Then again, there's a mod for that too -- and if 8 shots from the Warhawk hasn't killed it, you need bigger weapons anyway. Or just quick draw your second gun.

Larme

Feb 28 2008, 11:33 PM

I agree, Arsenal did pretty much bitchslap the dual fisting techniques where you fire left hand one action and right hand the other action. No more point to them IF you take advantage of the various Arsenal mods. I have to confess that I feel funny about modding up a Super Warhawk to fire SA -- it almost feels like cheating to have such a powerful gun. But it isn't cheating, so I ended up doing it with this very character

The main reason to dual fist anymore is when splitting dice pools. And splitting dice pools is almost always dumb. The only time it's a good idea, like I've said, is when you want to exterminate a lot of weak opponents faster.

Although there is one more justification, as you point out - more ammo. And, perhaps even better, you could have two different weapons or types of ammo. Like maybe one hand has a taser to stun and incapacitate them, and the other hand has a gun to kill them.

Another factor is if you have martial arts and melee hardened guns. One martial arts maneuver allows you to full parry with your offhand without spending an action. So if you have two melee hardened pistols, or a gun in one hand and a melee weapon in the other hand, you can be bitchingly hard to hit in melee combat without sacrificing anything offensively.

I found a friend to draw Dallas - he's pretty a pretty hardcore awesome artist, though I think his work has more asian influence than most shadowrun art.

Kyoto Kid

Feb 29 2008, 01:25 AM

....ahh but using two Warhawks ala Doc Holladay style means you don't have to stop and reload so soon. And it's stylin'.

With only six rounds & SA mode, you'll need more than a couple prepared speedloaders handy.

Fortune

Feb 29 2008, 02:05 AM

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Feb 29 2008, 12:25 PM)

With only six rounds & SA mode, you'll need more than a couple prepared speedloaders handy.

You could always mod it up to eight.

Larme

Feb 29 2008, 02:13 AM

With 22 base dice, I prolly won't need to reload ever, unless I'm facing more than 8 people at a time... Or facing something kinda really scary

Kyoto Kid

Feb 29 2008, 06:05 PM

QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 28 2008, 06:05 PM)

You could always mod it up to eight.

..at more than twice the base cost of the weapon. not worth it.

Tobias

Feb 29 2008, 06:11 PM

And there is always the Firefight martial arts to make it only a -1 to shoot in close combat rather than -3.

Nostalgic Jester

Feb 29 2008, 08:21 PM

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Feb 28 2008, 12:31 PM)

Nostalgic Jester: She needs the Genetic Heritage Quality for the discount.

I was sure she already had it! Why doesn´t she? Doesn´t fit her concept?

Fortune

Feb 29 2008, 09:38 PM

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Mar 1 2008, 05:05 AM)

..at more than twice the base cost of the weapon. not worth it.

Shrug. A few hundred nuyen for that extra couple of shots right when you need them seems like a good trade to me.

Larme

Feb 29 2008, 11:37 PM

It's probably not that worthwhile from a strict cost:benefit standpoint. But it is advantageous, and it does have coolness factor. Which is why I ended up taking the mod for Dallas' warhawk.

Kyoto Kid

Mar 1 2008, 03:03 AM

...yeah for a 250K Sammy, it's chump change, but for an adept build that is watching where every BP is going, the extra 1,000

for both Warhawks can be a lot.

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