So right, some questions one the Search power, as used by spirits, since RAW isn't too specific on this at all:

1) Does the spirit have to move to use this power? Does it have to travel to wherever the target is (in astral or physical form) to find it? Does this make using the power a remote service if the target is over 100M meters away?

2) How do you handle the spirit relaying the results back to the magician? Does this change when the target is behind a ward, and how?

1. THAt is a very good question. Per RAW, it might just be taking time. I myself have the spirit excuse himself and return a few hours later (if he finds the target - i am using the diminishing dice-pool rule, a spirit WILL find anyone on the planet if you don't)

It is a very awesome and mighty power, so i guess having the spirit not available while he is looking through the astral world is ok. But i am not automatically counting it as a remote service (maybe i should)

2. Well, spirit comes back and can leads the mage to the target. If there is a ward he would say something like: "Yeah, behind that. About there", and point at him - Target could have moved in that time though. Not neccesassary to pinpoint it completely, in my opinion. Makes a moving target (driving around etc.) harder to find, so that they can't just make legwork and detective work obselete.

He could also just describe the position, but uses emotion or distinctive landmarks (Yeah, at the "Holy Place", then a mental minute straight towards the huge mountain and down into the round canals beneath the eart. In the midst of monsters - once human)

But that is just how i handle it. With this power, assensing, and the damn future-prediction shenanigans it is hard enough to do a cool detective story with a mage in the group.

Based on this line:



I think they do travel around, even if astrally, to find the target. The question, really is time. Since a spirit can travel VERY fast astrally, even in a search mode, @ 100 meters / turn, as a "walking" rate, so that means they'll cover a linear KM in 10 turns, or 30 seconds.

And since the Time Increment for Search is 10 Minutes, they can search a fairly large area per increment.

I had the problem once with a possessing spirit. The PC wanted his spirit to keep on possessing the host body and use the Search power at the same time.

Just for the fun (and because the use of the Search power wasn't going to provide any useful information), I had the spirit starting running in a tight spiral.

On the other hand--by RAW--a Watcher spirit is blind, deaf, and dumb, but is--by Fluff--better at this job than any other spirit.

By RAW the diminishing dice pool rule means that a Watcher gets 2 rolls:

1 at 2 dice
1 at 1 die.

This means that even an army of watchers can't find anyone with a TN of 4 (i.e. it can't use Search and find your buddy in the other room, TN 5).

Don't forget the Bonus, to the roll, of +3 for actively looking...

Search power doesn't have the Perception table modifiers. It's Force + Intuition (5, 10 minutes).

The only modifiers are distance (+1 per km), "object or place" +5,¹ and Concealment or Wards (DP penalty equal to force of each).

ALSO, Watchers (being unable to materialize) don't have Perception. Only Assensing, which is also not subject to the "+3 actively looking" modifier.

¹"Find me Philadelphia" has a target number of 10+ distance!? From New York, NY the TH is 163.

True, forgot about that, but you could always add them in.

So a watcher spirit would get, tops, 15 dice, ever, to locating things with the Search power, so on average would be able to locate people within a 999 meter radius (but not objects or places).
On average a watcher spirit would notice "if a being is magical" (5 dice to get 2 hits).

Oh, final note: in SR3 the watcher spirit is explicitly described as not needing to move in order to locate the target.

I wouldn't do that. Wards are prevalent enough that Search frequently runs up against a wall (at least, I treat it as a ward of Force equal to or greater than the spirit's prevents the spirit's Search power from locating the target if the target is behind it, and the spirit will just keep searching indefinitely; maybe that's a deviation from RAW, I'm not sure). And spirits also can't find anyone located underground, etcetera. Likewise if the target is far enough away, an unbound spirit will very likely just fizzle out at sunrise/sunset before locating the target. Honestly though to me, the most common thing is that the team will usually find their objective through other means before the Search has time to finish. The hacker's schtick, legwork, these things have a very good chance of beating Search to the punch, especially if we're talking about a very large area (even say, all of Seattle is pretty sizeable when we're adding 1 to the TH for every Kilometer).

But yeah, every time an adventure refers to actually performing ritual magic to locate someone rather than just using the Search power, I am confused. Search is so much simpler and easier.



That would be blatantly wrong, however.

A search test is not a perception test.

RAW, unlike the Search Power, the Threshold for Astral Tracking during Ritual Spellcasting using Material or Sympathetic Link doesn't vary with distance. So, it will always be 5 (+ Barrier Force) while the Threshold for Search can rise to as much as 40,000 (+ Barrier Force). Even without diminishing pool, ritual spellcasting starts being more efficient when the target is more than about 50 kilometers away.

But as said above, RAW pretty much kill any attempt to have an investigation-focused adventure.

The +1per KM distant threshold makes it hard for any spirit to find anything that isn't in the same town as you, even large cities will be hard if you use the extended test optional rule. And yes watcher's can't find anything.

While I use the rules for diminishing the pool for extended tests My 2 rule mods is the 1km distance is based on a location that the summoner chooses, so if he knows Bob is in Philly and the summoner is in NY he can start the search from the center of philly since the summoner knows where philly is already. Also I basically raise the effective force of the watcher by 1 for every hit on the summoning test for the purpose of the search power. It isn't huge, but it at least makes them equal to force 4-5 spirits when summoned by a decent summoner. Honestly I think they should have just let you choose force and its stat block would be 1 for most things and force for intuition, magic, and maybe assensing. The drain would be the hits on the resistance test so it would be much easier on you than summoning a normal spirit.

While rules consistency is a good thing as it makes it easier to learn and play, not everything fits perfectly in the same box. You have to work to make them fit sometimes, which yes means you have to do things like have rules consistency with a lot of but modifiers.

I'd say the Search power works pretty much like the trick the occult investigator pulls in the intro fiction for the magic chapter of the BBB - a bit of magic singsong and the knowledge is just there in her head.

I looked up the 3rd Edition rules, and Watchers had special rules for watcher spirits finding things.

They made a Force test with a TN equal to 9 - [Summoner's Intelligence]. Any successes meant the spirit found whatever it was. What type of object determined how long it took to find (2 for people, 4 for objects, 6 for places), divided by successes.

Just as sort of an off the cuff idea for watchers, keep all stats at 1, but intuition, which is =f, skills are the same, except assensing =f/2, maybe

Ah yeah, i have houseruled watchers in my game, since the RAW-Watcher can not exist and makes no sense.

Half summoner magic attribute for mine and they get +2 dice bonus for their only power: Search.

So in my game a Force 3 watcher rolls 8 dice for that.

ROFL.

Yet, the Threshold is an Extended Test, and you could locate anything given time, if you did not use the Decrementing rule. We do not apply that optional rule universally. If you have time, the rule does not apply. A Watcher has nothing but time. Of course, other methods may be quicker.

But you could, of course, Attune the watcher to make him more effective.

You do realize that Watchers are all Force 1 Right?

Specifically. Which is why they're blind, deaf, and dumb. Sneaking past them is as simple as defaulting for most players.

If you are trying to sneak, maybe. But the search power will find them, eventually.
And if you are the lone living thing in a place where they are guarding (you stand out horribly at that point), well, they will find you automatically, no roll even required, unless you are under concealment.

They are not as weak as everyone makes them out to be. And there are RAW options that you can implement to make them more useful.

This.

And to narrow the expectation-to-results gap from the other end, watchers are not meant to compare to standard spirits for anything you might want a standard spirit for. Golden rule is, if a team of watchers isn't enough then you want the real deal.

I think the biggest discrepancy is that they have the search power at all, but the best way to make it work is to use the other extended test optional rule - that is, limit the number of rolls. That way you can make it possible but unlikely for a watcher to succeed and not even let the player know how likely it is beforehand. Search is an awesome power - watchers should never find it easy.

Not really. And if they're using Search to find you walking through the area they were told to "notify about intruders" then:

a) the watcher knows who its looking for (Search is for "Find Steve" no "search for people intruding this area")
b) you've come and gone long before the Search succeeds (10 minute interval!)



A human under a cardboard box doesn't stand out in an empty parking lot any more than an empty cardboard box does: It can't see your aura.
Likewise standing behind a tree, under a bush, or around the corner.



You mean, they get TWO rolls with TWO dice each instead of TWO rolls with TWO, then ONE dice? Congrats, you've increased their odds of finding anything by 33%!



Seriously? You'd take away the only power watcher spirits have simply because it's impossible for them to do anything with it? Rather than, say, take it away from other spirits and make it so that watchers can actually succeed by fixing the Search power rules?

This is easy. All spirits have a mental link with their summoner. The spirit can relay whatever information the summoner needs to locate the object of the Search. If he's behind a ward, the spirit can just point the magician at the ward, using whatever mental descriptions the summoner wants.

No Draco, that would be the first optional rule discussed. The other one is for the GM to arbitrarily set a maximum number of rolls. Essentially he'd be saying if the spirit can't find it in x intervals then he's never going to find it. Works for me but YMMV.


Yup. Search is awesome and too useful for something as easily-summoned as a watcher to have a very reasonable chance of succeeding at. Why on Earth would you want to take it away from other spirits? It's one of the comparatively-few non-combat uses of a spirit and watchers are already non-combat. Seriously, if you want something done that might be even slightly tricky you shouldn't be comfortable relying on a watcher.

I would also add that taking away Search from Watchers leaves them far from useless. Simple watch-dogs, message carriers, astral ganger-uppers...they have a ton of uses, and Searching seems like just a small niche of what a Watcher can do.

I'm pretty sure spirits don't go anywhere because centaurs can use the power and they certainly don't disappear and wander the astral looking under astral rocks for people.

How about we go back towards 3rd edition rules, where it was a Force check, and the time it took was N hours divided by successes. Where N is 2 for people, 4 for objects, and 6 for places. In 3rd Edition, the Threshold on the test was 9 - [Summoner's Inteligence], which meant that a reasonably smart magician (5 int) summoning a F3 watcher, had good odds to find whatever it was he was looking for (TN 4, rolling 3 dice to get a 4 on at least one of them).

I mean, seriously, the Search power was written for Watcher spirits.



Requires Perception, which Watchers don't have. Unless you mean to assense ever one they meet, with their amazing 2 dice which they can't retry at.



Requires the Search power. "Send this message to Steve" will require the Watcher to find Steve. Which takes the Search power.



Astral Gangers!? Really? With what attack strength? Watcher spirits are as incapable of astral combat as they are at anything else (2 dice to attack, 1 die to defend, base DV of 1).

Yeah, I will grant you that the 1+1 combo is a recipe for suckiness. Optional rules for aspecting watchers or using summoner's magic in certain places seems to make some sense.

And as far as astral gangers goes, they can provide distractions and friends in melee bonuses. As long as they remember to buy the sideways-brim hat instead of the normal one...

I'm not saying Watchers are teh awesome...just not as useless without Search as you seem to say. For basically 0 drain and no extra points invested, being able to summon a watcher seems a pretty good deal.

Astral Combat isn't "Friends in Melee." It's "let me suck your dodge." On average you need 10 watchers to do 1 damage a round (because why would the person actually dodge them?)



They're not 0 drain. Their drain DV is equal to their lifespan in hours (always stun). You roll Summoning + Magic and the hits you get on that test is the hours of lifespan the watcher has (although you are allowed to "choose" fewer hits than you get in order to both reduce the lifespan of the Watcher and the drain).

Your evidence for this? The way I see it the Search power is even more broken for watchers than standard spirits because they either always succeed or never depending on how the GM handles the extended test.


You don't need Perception to see. Stick a watcher on a door and he'll tell you what goes through it as and when. If you need much better than that then, as always, summon a proper spirit.


Again, you don't need Search to find things. If the summoner knows the approximate location of Steve then that'll usually do it. It probably wouldn't even take the watcher very long to scour a block or two looking for Steve if need be.

For both of these, I refer you to Third Edition.



Can it, though? Any proper GM will abuse a player who doesn't take the Perception skill and only has 1 intuition. "Sorry, you're defaulting and have a dice pool of 0. I guess you can't find your keys."
And what if someone is stealthing through the door? What then?

RAW has it that astral combat functions as regular melee does, so I think the friends in melee bonus is perfectly applicable and a rather good use for watchers.

Alright, so instead of 10 watchers doing an average 1 (total collective) damage a round, you instead only need 5.

After which you step in yourself and get the same +4, which isn't too shabby at all. Is it worth choosing that option over Stunbolt though? Probably not.

And thanks for the answers, folks. ^_^

Didn't realize I had a PDF here at work.

http://i53.tinypic.com/mlqx45.png

Enjoy.

Ah right. It wasn't clear you were still referring to 3rd.


Why would 'any proper GM' abuse any player for anything?! That doesn't sound like a fun table. If the GM has to go out of his way to show a player he made a bad build then he undermines himself. Any pillock with a rule book can make any character useless if they are determined. Re: your example - have you ever made a player roll to find something that was last held by him? That character is not going to notice things which are concealed, disguised or fleeting, but he's still not going to get lost inside a paperbag.

'Stealthing through the door'? Please do elaborate on this one because I'm struggling to imagine it. You sound as though you think enough hits on an Infiltration roll will make you invisible on both planes and mask the opening and closing of the door to boot.

Exactly, but it works in defence too for those times when your opponent does prefer astral combat.

There aren't any specifics in 4th, so I have to cast backwards for information. I had seen the rules recently for Watchers in 3rd, so I knew the fluff surrounding them.



Not necessarily "you forgot where you put your keys, find them" but more "you're trying to find something" and I just picked something out of thin air.



You're talking about a watcher spirit that has a brain the size of a small dog noticing (without the skill to notice things) if someone goes through a door. Say, someone who has a chameleon suit on.

Guess what else they lost from 3E to 4E?
Yep, that's right. The ability to act as an alarm against intrusion without the skills required.
http://i54.tinypic.com/258wn7o.png
Note the complete lack of a test involved to see if there's an intruder.


Oh, another difference between the 3E Watcher Spirit finding someone, and any other spirit. Watchers roll their Force against a Threshold equal to 9 - [Summoner's Int].
The Search power other spirits have is twice Force as an opposed test against the Target's Intelligence (plus Concealment as a TN modifier).

And yet, the Door opening and closing is going to be pretty damn obvious, don't you think? Obvious enough that I may want to know about it.

And you think a small dog sat by a door focusing on nothing else won't notice it open? Or that something 10 times its size just passed through? Being without Perception is not the same as being without eyes or the cognitive faculties required to use them.

Does a chameleon suit work on one's aura then? I'm sure there are ways to hide astrally, but being invisible is different to being stealthy.

They lost nothing of the sort. Just because they chose to save some tree by not spelling it out does not mean you can rule it impossible. Common sense should be your guide above all else, but if that's still not enough to persuade you here's the most banal quote I've ever felt the need to give:

"The gamemaster should not require a player to make a test when the action is something that the character should be expected to do without difficulty." We find this dictum at the beginning of near enough every RPG. This is why watchers have such pitiful stats - they're only meant for simple things that shouldn't go wrong, like seeing something that's in front of its face. The moment there's any contention then sure, the smart money ain't on the little guy.

As someone somewhere said at some time - 'A thief should never have to roll to pick a lock unless something hungry is about to catch up.'

Yet if you just told the Watcher to watch for intruders, it shouldn't be going to tell you.

The Stealth skill explicitly works against astral entities. There have been entire threads devoted to the subject.



Oh boy, oh boy! An intruder! Yes! Intruder! *Wag wag*
I'm such a good watch dog! I am watching you steal that TV! Oh boy, oh boy!
Master will be SO PROUD.

More like:
"Oh boy, oh boy! The door's opening! Someone coming, must be!
I wonder who it... is? No one? Just a ruddy cardboard box! That's not a person!
Awww! And I so wanted to make Master proud!
Oh! I'm being distracted by that box moving! Must watch the door for people!"

Why would I do that? "Watch this door, tell me if it opens and what comes through it."
Simple and effective.

TJ, I agree, however I've had players state things like "Watch that door."

The evil GM in me wanted to follow the statement, the kind GM in me allowed the order as intended not as spoken.

-D

Come on now, it's not a Wish spell after all

No. It's communicating with a wholly alien entity, with a far less than certain chance of having a friendly relationship with its summoner. In the case of a Watcher, add to that: "with the intellectual abilities of the dumbest creature the system can create, without calling zeroes."