Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Stun Weapons
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Deamon_Knight
SR3 p. 124 has a section on shock weapons, suggesting that, in addition to filling Stun Boxes on the Stun condition monitor, causes the target to be stunned (+2 to all target #s) for a number of combat turns equal to the power of the attack, minus 1/2 impact armor and the success of an additional Body or Willpower (4) test.

So, say BlackJack, the Elven Ninja/Combat decker sneaks up on an unsuspecting corp goon, and using a shock hand implant goes all Vulcan Neck Pinch on him. We will assume surprise and a hit (Questions on staging later) for 8S damage.

Corp goon rolls 4 body dice to resist and generates a 3,1,5,6; because he has 4 impact armor, reducing the power of the attack to 6 (8-2, one half impact armor = 6), and generating 1 success, no staging.

Corp Goon fills in 6 stun boxes (1 Serious wound), and then rolls his unusual Willpower of 5 against a target of 4 to resist the Stunning effect. His results are 2,2,5,5,3. 2 Success, and again, minus 1/2 impact for another 2 for a total of 4 from the number of Combat turns he experiences the stunning effect.

Now does he subtract that 4 from the original power of 8 for a total of 4 combat turns stunned, or the staged down power of 6 for 2 combat turns stunned?

During that Stunned period, having suffered no other wounds, he would be at +5 to all TNs? (+3 from the serious Stun wound, and +2 from the additional stunning effect)

Does the TN penalties of the stun wound apply to the stunning resistance check?

Could BlackJack, having an cyber weapon combat 4, and achieved 2 successes staged the damage from the shock up to 8D, or with 4 successes, up to 9D?

Would a staging up to 9 deadly result in a base 9 combat turns under the stunning effect? (Assume corp goon staged the damage down from deadly)

Is there a roll for knockdown in here somewhere, and would the base TNs (4) be effected by all the Tn penalties accrued?

Thanks in advance!

(Man this system can get a bit complex!)

ES_Riddle
The goon is looking at 4 turns of stunning (8-2 for armor, 2 for successes).

On the topic of staging I would say that in this situation the shock damage can be staged up. If he had slugged the guard in the head for his unarmed damage and shock damage, I'd say that one or the other can be staged, or that net successes have to be divided between them to determine staging or something like that. I don't really have a rule to cite on this, it just seems like it keeps from boning those who want to use the shock on its own without overpowering those who want to use it in conjunction with breaking people's noses.
The White Dwarf
The stun part is correct as above.

As for staging, the Shock Glove does a standard unarmed damage code at its reduced strength (str-1 if memory serves) in addition to the Shock part. The Unarmed (or Cyber Implant) test applies to this non-shock portion.

In the scenario above, were I GMing I would rule no unarmed attack was made; the target was simply touched. The Shock portion would be delt, using only body to resist (no skill or combat pool). Then again, were I GMing the players would undoubtedly choose to employ an unarmed test using a silently mouthed "Judo-Chop" from behind in order to be *sure* they knocked the goon unconcious. Despite the TN penalties, an 8S Stun with no dice behind it can, at worst, do 6 boxes =)
Mercer
I believe (but am not sure) that the shock glove requires the impact of a punch or judo-chop to discharge, if for no other reason than to keep Joe Q. Shadowrunner from taking himself out everytime he picks he nose or scratches his ass. Fair warning to the guy trying to kill the mosquito on his arm.

This is a minor point and peripheral to the original question, but I thought I'd bring it up.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (ES_Riddle)
On the topic of staging I would say that in this situation the shock damage can be staged up. If he had slugged the guard in the head for his unarmed damage and shock damage

I don't stage up shock damage, but I think a "slug to the head" would qualify as a called shot and I would allow that to stage up the attack per called shot rules.
Zen Shooter01
Any way you look at it, anyone not carrying some kind of stun weapon is a dim bulb. What's a stun baton do? 6S stun, plus special zap effects, with +1 reach?
Deamon_Knight
Grinder, why don't you think Stun Damage should be staged?
Fortune
He isn't refering to all Stun Damage ... just the Shock Glove/Stun Baton Stun damage.

I would think his premise for this is ... why would hitting someone harder make the electrical discharge involved more damaging?
Arethusa
Which unfortunately ignores the fairly simple fact that while hit placement with an electrical weapon may matter differently than it does with, say, a club, it still makes a difference.
Zen Shooter01
I think Arethusa's right. Getting zapped in the finger and getting zapped in the face are two different things.
Mercer
I think it comes from the fact that, for the shock glove anyway, people don't want to stage both damages; the punch and the shock. Since the shock is more-or-less the secondary effect, most people stage the punch and tag the shock to it. Otherwise it seems like it would require two rolls, one for how good a punch it was and one to see how good a shock it was. Staging up two damage resistance rolls from one set of successes makes the shock glove a little too game-breakingly effective for my money. I could see letting the player choose which effect he was going for (shock or punch) and then stage that accordingly, though.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Mercer)
I could see letting the player choose which effect he was going for (shock or punch) and then stage that accordingly, though.

That'd be how I'd do it.
Edward
because placement maters differently for shock and punch effects my suggestion would be to stage whichever the attacker wants. You get 5 net successes, take your pick you can ad 2 points of power, do you want to put them all on the impact, all on the shock or split them up. Or maybe you should decide one or the other before the roll. Your better or putting them all in one place anyway (although usually the shock damage if I have the maths correct)

Edward
RedmondLarry
I know that a target hit by a successful attack with Shock Gloves has to resist both the punch damage (STR-1)M Stun, as well as the electric shock 7S Stun. Does anyone believe this is true with Stun Batons, that the target has to resist the physical attack as well as the electric attack?

The traditional Stun Baton (as used in Die Hard 2) has the prongs on the tip. I don't see that doing much 'club' damage.

Some references:
QUOTE
750,000 volts (prongs on tip) (useful through 2" of clothing)
http://www.beststungun.com/streetwise-mini...stun-baton.html

500,000 volts (prongs on tip)
http://www.familydefense.com/stun.htm

150,000 volt "Stun Warrior" (contacts on side)
http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/stunbatons.htm

500,000 volts (20" long) and 300,000 volts (16" long) (contacts on side)
http://www.tbotech.com/stunbaton.htm
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
Grinder, why don't you think Stun Damage should be staged?

This might be contrary to canon, I just don't see how the varietey of touching someone with a shock-glove or otherwise would make it "do more shocking value" since it's delivering a set-discharge. Now placement of that discharge to a more sensitive area (face, heart, groin, etc) I think would qualify as a called shot and get the benefits as such.

I don't have real-life experience with Shock-weapons, but I've never seen folks get knocked out but serverly dazed so I don't see how staging it up to Deadly (except with a called shot) would be that common.

Arethusa
The only difference between a called shot staging up damage once and two successes staging up damage once is that the player intended for the first and the second was incidental. There is no other difference. There is no magic difference between calling a shot and not calling a shot. It's just a more intentional way of going about it, and mechanically, a much dumber one.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Arethusa)
The only difference between a called shot staging up damage once and two successes staging up damage once is that the player intended for the first and the second was incidental. There is no other difference.

You also ignore armor except on the called-location and get a "free" wound-level staging to boot.

QUOTE
There is no magic difference between calling a shot and not calling a shot.  It's just a more intentional way of going about it, and mechanically, a much dumber one.

Magical no but, not sure why you think it's "dumber".

if some chump comes your way in a mountian of milspec armor but has no helmet, then how is that "dumber" to shoot him in the head than trying to peel-away at something you can't hit or damage?

Also alot harder to stage down the free wound-level without the benefit of the rest of your armor.
Tarantula
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
You also ignore armor except on the called-location and get a "free" wound-level staging to boot.

Wrong, you can either ignore the armor, OR get a free wound-level. Not both.
Fermun
the group of runners i play with are all stun-only. we havent killed anyone yet. it makes it much more difficult to play, but its pretty interesting. we all use gel rounds and all of us have melee stun weapons too. we all carry handcuffs to restrain people after combat, wouldnt want them becoming conscious and sounding an alarm.

the way we do stun gloves are to scale up the damage from the hit, but not the one from the electrical discharge.
Arethusa
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
QUOTE (Arethusa)
The only difference between a called shot staging up damage once and two successes staging up damage once is that the player intended for the first and the second was incidental. There is no other difference.

You also ignore armor except on the called-location and get a "free" wound-level staging to boot.

QUOTE
There is no magic difference between calling a shot and not calling a shot.  It's just a more intentional way of going about it, and mechanically, a much dumber one.

Magical no but, not sure why you think it's "dumber".

if some chump comes your way in a mountian of milspec armor but has no helmet, then how is that "dumber" to shoot him in the head than trying to peel-away at something you can't hit or damage?

Also alot harder to stage down the free wound-level without the benefit of the rest of your armor.

Because Tarantula is correct: you have three options when calling a shot. For your flat +4 TN modifier, you get to choose one of the following:
  • bypass armor
  • stage damage up once
  • specify an effect (eg I shoot his martini, etc)

So, why is it dumber? Do the math: with a skill of six and a basic smartlink, you're looking at TN 2. On average, you'll stage up two or three times, and that's before combat pool/being an adept and breaking reality. Or you can throw six dice at TN 2 + 4 to stage up damage once. You'll hit as often as you miss. Staging up damage with the +4 is almost always supidly useless and was just a damned bad idea to put into the game to begin with.
GrinderTheTroll
Even choosing one (my oops), it can still serve a purpose as I mentioned, shooting at a weak-point (aka armor bypass) could have large benefits even at a +4 TN.

Don't use it if you don't like it.
Arethusa
Like I said, bypassing armor is really all it's good for. +1 DL is stupidly worthless.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Like I said, bypassing armor is really all it's good for. +1 DL is stupidly worthless.

Except in the case of having low skill and taking an extreme risk with small arms. But, of course, you only consider massive skills, high probabilities, and uber l33t effects. After a light wound, SR considers many targets will continue to attack but most will stop after a moderate.
RedmondLarry
I'm surprised at the above characterization of things I do in Shadowrun as being stupid or dumb.

When my sniper shaman uses a Called shot and aim-aim-aim before pulling the trigger, she has taken the TN from 2 to 2 by doing the called shot (Smarlink 2), or from 2 to 3 when using regular Smartlink.

When my Face (no Smartlink) chooses to make a called shot against the Ork Ganger who is beating him with a club, he takes the TN from 6 to 10 and expects to get only half as many successes, but he may be willing to use a Karma Pool to save his hide.

Calling it a damned bad idea to put into the game just because its not always numerically useful is a bit harsh on the Shadowrun Designers.

Calling +1 DL stupidly worthless has the assumption that everyone wears strong armor. For many years we didn't have the option to bypass armor, and many still don't play with that rule.

(I'm not angry or flaming. This is my usual pre-Christmas depression.)
Deamon_Knight
So, what if you have the shock hand Cyberware? it that also (Str-1) Stun AND 8S Stun?

A seperate note, anyone know if Cyberarms add to HTH power like bone lacing?
Mercer
QUOTE (OurTeam)
Calling +1 DL stupidly worthless has the assumption that everyone wears strong armor. For many years we didn't have the option to bypass armor, and many still don't play with that rule.

Balancing out the called shots ability to bypass armor (at the higher target number) with the combat pool dodge was a step in the right direction as well. For my group, in SR2, it got to the point where no one went anywhere without a helmet because if anyone got even one success against you in a called shot to the head, you were stuck trying to stage down the whole of the damage rather than roll combat pool to try and negate the hit.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight @ Dec 21 2004, 12:25 AM)
So, what if you have the shock hand Cyberware? it that also (Str-1) Stun AND 8S Stun?

A seperate note, anyone know if Cyberarms add to HTH power like bone lacing?

Well, if you're punching, and a human, you're going to be doing 4M Stun (human cyberarms start with 4 str). Otherwise, if you aren't specifically punching, I'd have it go off your average strength. Ex: Str of 6, 1 cyber arm. Average is (6 + 6 + 6 + 4) / 4 = 5.5 but all things round down, 5. So 5M for your HTH.

If you wanted to spend the ¥ and upgrade the strength, you could do a LOT more with the cyberarms. Or legs.

Oh, and yes, shock hand ware does Str -1 Stun and then an 8S stun after that.
Da9iel
I thought that 1 cyber-limb added 1 to unarmed (no pun intended) attack power and 2 or more cyber-limbs added 2 to power. (It's in the text; dang I don't have my books.)
TheScamp
Yes. One limb adds 1 to unarmed Power, and two or more limbs add 2 to unarmed Power.
The White Dwarf
Calling shots for damage isnt dumb. Rolling only 6 dice and using smartlink-1 maybe thats the case, but a different example with say 8 dice and smartlink-2 is a different story. 8 dice at tn 2 is ~6 successes, 8 dice at tn 4 is ~4 successes and +1DL, or the same. If you need to make 1 really big shot, using the second option, and using karma to reroll, yields a bigger hit: you cannot get more successes than you have dice so calling the shot for +1DL expands past that limit. Situational doesnt mean useless, it means dont blindly use it without understanding what you want to accomplish.
Tarantula
QUOTE (TheScamp)
Yes. One limb adds 1 to unarmed Power, and two or more limbs add 2 to unarmed Power.

I just checked, you also do use either your average strength of your limbs, + 2 power for having 2 limbs, or you can 'lead' with one limb, use that limbs strength, but only add +1 power because you're only using 1 limb. The example is on page 34 of M&M.
Deamon_Knight
So, lets say you have Character with 2 cyberarms (and for simplicities sake a str of 4) and a (single) shock hand cyberware implant. Am I correct in calculating the damage, when using the shock hand, like this: (Str (4)-1+2)=5M (Physical Damage) + 8S Stun . ?

Other questions: Would there be any change in the Stun portion of the damage if the Character in question had a shock hand cyberware installed in Both hands?

And, Would you allow this attack with the cyber weapon implant skill?
Tarantula
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight @ Dec 22 2004, 10:59 PM)
So, lets say you have Character with 2 cyberarms (and for simplicities sake a str of 4) and a (single) shock hand cyberware implant. Am I correct in calculating the damage, when using the shock hand, like this: (Str (4)-1+2)=5M (Physical Damage) + 8S Stun . ?

Other questions: Would there be any change in the Stun portion of the damage if the Character in question had a shock hand cyberware installed in Both hands?

And, Would you allow this attack with the cyber weapon implant skill?

Close, str of 4, cyberarms default to str 4 (provided your example is a human, which i'll assume with for now). Shock hand, is NOT a shock glove, and thus you only do the 8S stun with it. If you happened to be using a shock glove however, the damage would be (Str (4) -1 + 2) = 5M STUN, + 7S shock.

I would allow the shock hand attack with cyber-implant, and not the shock glove.
Deamon_Knight
QUOTE

Close, str of 4, cyberarms default to str 4 (provided your example is a human, which i'll assume with for now). Shock hand, is NOT a shock glove, and thus you only do the 8S stun with it. If you happened to be using a shock glove however, the damage would be (Str (4) -1 + 2) = 5M STUN, + 7S shock.


M&M p. 43 Shows the Shock hand doing 8S Stun, so we think that the attack would deal 5M Stun + 8S Stun ? How would you go about resisting this?
Crusher Bob
The 'normal' interpretation is that the successes on the attack stage the 5M attack. You resist the 5M attack like a regular melee attack and then resist the 8S like a shock attack (iirc half impact).
Tarantula
No, the attack with a shock hand deals 8Stun. Unlike how a shock glove, it does NOT get a primary damage from unarmed, with it as a secondary effect. The ONLY damage coming from a shock hand is from the shock, which is 8S Stun.

A Shock GLOVE on the other hand would deal 5M STUN + 7S Stun from the glove. Just because you put an electric glove on doesn't make your punch suddenly do physical damage. Staging would stage up the 5M Stun damage from the punch, and the 7S stun would be a constant.
Deamon_Knight
Tarantula, SR3 p. 122 the 'Melee' weapons table shows the shock glove as doing (Str -1) M + 7S Stun

I agree that it doesn't make much sense for your unarmed attack to be doing physical damage with a glove on, but all the other listing conventions in SR3 seem to indicate that where it does not explicitly state Stun damage, the damage is physical.

If you were correct I would expect that chart to read (Str -1)M Stun + 7S Stun, but it doesn't. Is this eratted somewhere, or contradicted somewhere else in SR3?

Also, i'm still a little lost on the shock hand implant, do you think that you only do the 8S Stun, and there is no unarmed attack component to the damage if you punch someone with it?
ShadowFaq
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
If you were correct I would expect that chart to read (Str -1)M Stun + 7S Stun, but it doesn't. Is this eratted somewhere, or contradicted somewhere else in SR3?
There is no errata/correction to the line for Shock Gloves in the table on SR3 p. 122. The word "Stun" applies to both the '(STR-1)M' and the '7S', but its easy to read it the other way.

I'll see about getting that posted on a FAQ.
Post #3
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012