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Johnny Reb
Ahh, killing Lofwyr. High Dream for many a player (And, as Bull has stated, a few writers as well). JMS (Used because I can't spell Strazinski) has talked about writing before where he'll sit down and go, "You know, what happens if I kill so n so?" A basic writing brainstorm session that can be both fun and informative.

So, bringing that to Shadowrun, you can see a few times in the past where it was done. Cap the Capo of Seattle and get a nice gang war. Kill Leonardo and get rid of painful plots. Kill Dunk and ... egads! Kill Dunk?! Are you MAD?!

Some fallout is good, some not so.

I'm just curious who of teh Big Players people would like to see bite the bullet and what results might flow from this. Obviously, the *method* of death would heavily influence things, but, work with me.

So, choose a name from below, or even come up with one of your own, just to try and think about what could happen.

1) Lofwyr
2) Harlequin
3) Lugh Surehand
4) Damian Knight
5) Art Dunkwalther
6) Richard Villers
7) Aztechnology
cool.gif The Ute Nation
9) Buttercup
10) The Pope

Don't do 'em all ... your brain'll explode. smile.gif Just choose one, or insert your own, for brainstorming.

Some examples as referenced above: Lofwyr

A) Saeder-Krupp Prime vanishes in a sudden and unexpected Nuclear fireball.

B) An assassin hired by Surehand catches Lofwyr while vulnerable 'reading' the Memory Crystal and manages to kill teh dragon ... or at least his meat body.

C) Flying over the Atlantic, Lofwyr suddenly *vanishes* from Radar. No one knows what happened. Is he dead?

D) Challenged by the son of Nachtmaster, Lofwyr finds himself ganged up on by several younger dragons who manage to drag him down by breaking formal Dragon rules. The victor stands on Lofwyr's corpse on live TV, announcing, "New rules for a new age." His cronies (A half-dozen other young dragons) lurk behind him.

E) Dragonslayer lives up to his name, trying the impossible ... and suceeds!

F) Vampires get him.

G) Buttercup and Lofwyr have a showdown, with the spirit killing teh Great Dragon at the cost of her own essence.

H) Johnny Spinrad, on his deathbed, damns teh Wyrm with his final breath, calling down a sat-strike of some kind (Thor style, lasers, whatever)

I) Lofwyr slips in the tub, hits his head, and dies after a two day coma.

Yeah, some are silly. smile.gif But, one or two have merit. Then again, there's bound to be ideas that y'all have as well. As you can see, there are different fallouts for different deaths (Spinrad doing a "Hell's Heart I Stab at Thee" vs "Ares Nukes Him" vs "Dragon Youths Screw The Rules" etc) but, it's interesting to see what teh world would look like with such a change.

So, since, again, I know some people want Harlequin dead, as an example, let's see what you've got.

Pick someone, kill 'em, and tells us how, why, and then what.

-- Johnny Reb
Fortune
Leonardo is not necessarily dead!
Crimsondude 2.0
Most likely event is for Damien Knight to stroke out when he's 120.
CircuitBoyBlue
In any game I'd ever be a part of, if Lofwyr died, there'd be some nasty infighting to see who the next head of Saeder-Krupp was, and that would be the end of it. I think the worst thing to ever happen to the game was the whole bit about Dunklezahn having such a huge effect on everything after his death.
hobgoblin
heh, only effect dunk had was to mess up the old order, and only for a short time. the biggest fallout was the fall of fuchi (a situation looking for a excuse) and the elevation of 2-3 more corps to AAA status. besides that, all is the same. plus ca change you may say...

i worry a bit tho about the vampire option, anyone ever seen a vampire-dragon?
Moon-Hawk
What makes anyone think a dragon would be susceptible to the Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus?
CircuitBoyBlue
The name of HMHVV implies that something has to be a human or a metahuman to get it, which I'm not sure Dragons are. Of course, I think there might be canon examples of non-(meta)human beings getting it, I'm just not sure off the top of my head whether I'm only thinking of the drop bear joke.
hobgoblin
heh, i had forgotten about that part. still, one never knows, that stuff may well mutate in a high-mana enviroment...
mfb
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
heh, only effect dunk had was to mess up the old order, and only for a short time.

i'd say it had a bigger effect than that. assuming Hestaby won in SotF, it broke up the old order completely, and possibly for good.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jan 3 2005, 02:22 PM)
heh, only effect dunk had was to mess up the old order, and only for a short time. the biggest fallout was the fall of fuchi (a situation looking for a excuse) and the elevation of 2-3 more corps to AAA status. besides that, all is the same. plus ca change you may say...

I don't know. I'd call that a big effing deal.

QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue)
Of course, I think there might be canon examples of non-(meta)human beings getting it, I'm just not sure off the top of my head whether I'm only thinking of the drop bear joke.

Chupacabras are HMHVV-infected.
Cochise
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Chupacabras are HMHVV-infected.

plus Bandersnatches ...
Large Mike

Chupacabras? I was pretty sure it was explicitly stated, possibly in PNAoNA, that they only *acted* as if they had HMHVV.

But I don't currently own a copy, so I could be wrong.
Herald of Verjigorm
Both close, but a bit off. The chupacabra DNA has segments that almost perfectly match HMHVV, but is not infectous.
Tanka
QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 3 2005, 04:16 PM)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jan 3 2005, 11:09 PM)
Chupacabras are HMHVV-infected.

plus Bandersnatches ...

Bandersnatch is an HMHVV infected Sasquatch (though it never says which version of HMHVV, just "infected with a vampiric virus"), it's possible a Sasquatch is a very, very different form of metahuman. (They do show a lot of similarities.)
Johnny Reb
So, no one thinks there'd be much fallout over the Loaf getting snuffed?

Huh.

Interesting.

What about some of the others up there? Would Harlequin's death bother more than about a dozen people? The eradication of the UTE nation? Anything?

-- Johnny Reb
mfb
actually, that very question was discussed here. my view, as presented there, is that the sudden death of a GD like lofwyr would have massive and far-reaching consequences, up to and including the total destruction of S-K.
Adarael
Dude. On the Dragons getting HMHVV thing?

When someone says 'He's gotten by vampires', my first thought isn't 'He gets turned into one,' it's 'They tear him into meaty chunks and sup on his ancient, delicious essence.'
FlakJacket
The the battle over ownership of SK would be monumental. Since it's extraterritorial that means no government like the Germans can claim it which means the Corporate Courts gets and early birthday present. That's not counting wills- and there will be lots of them, draconic society- does caring for a dragon egg and raising the hatchlings count as family or do they have to be actual genetic offspring to count as children, if another dragon kills him do they get to keep the company or does the Corp Court invoke the law and make a try for it, takeover attempts, asset stripping, management buy-outs etc.
mfb
i don't think S-K would survive at all, honestly. it'd fall apart completely inside a week, no matter who grabbed the reigns, or how fast they grabbed them. lofwyr runs the corporation in his head; moves he makes now may only see fruition if he makes ten or twenty other precisely-timed moves over the next eight years. no one else knows what those moves will be; and if those moves aren't made, the huge investments lofwyr's made into his plans will return no money at all to the corporation. various divisions and subdivisions will lose funding, and be bought out at basement prices by S-K competitors; eventually, the corporation will have no assets and become defunct.
FlakJacket
More than likely. I could see SK Prime and some of his major functionaries, the ones detailed in CD I think it was, fighting a half decent rearguard action but they'd still get hammered. Hell, in Europe alone there's at least half a dozen entities that are powerful enough and pissed off enough to rip them apart. Probably end up the Novatech of Mega's in size and scope if the survived at all.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
The the battle over ownership of SK would be monumental. Since it's extraterritorial that means no government like the Germans can claim it which means the Corporate Courts gets and early birthday present. That's not counting wills- and there will be lots of them, draconic society- does caring for a dragon egg and raising the hatchlings count as family or do they have to be actual genetic offspring to count as children, if another dragon kills him do they get to keep the company or does the Corp Court invoke the law and make a try for it, takeover attempts, asset stripping, management buy-outs etc.

Knowing Lofwyr, wills and descendants would be irrelevant. Just the ancient Draconic rites and then back to business as usual.

~J
Crimsondude 2.0
I agree with mfb for a couple of reasons besides those he mentioned.

First, because S-K is a private corp owned entirely by Lofwyr, there is no clear chain of succession. Lofwyr wouldn't have a will because in the last seven years he's shown, at best, an arrogant disregard for Dunk's decision to make one. The fact that he did not challenge the will in any cognizable manner (i.e., legally, or by treating the DF like any other GD in the Rite of Succession and try to take everything) implies that he was not willing to take the risk of losing a guaranteed really neat toy when, as with humans, given the opportunity lesser GDs would be likely to drag him down because he was most clearly the top GD once Dunk bit it.

Anyway, this corp is completely and thoroughly controlled by him. Given the strong presumption against him having a will, the most likely event is another fight over his stuff by the remaining GDs which would almost invariably tear S-K apart, especially when you consider the multitude of companies that are only partly owned by Lofwyr or S-K, which would lead to their own internal warfare as the metahuman shareholders and directors try to take over those corps themselves.

Likewise, every other megacorp would become engaged in attempts to poach personnel, materials, and every conceivable piece of S-K they could try to get their hands on.

Plus, extraterritoriality or not, there isn't a government on earth that wouldn't love to, and would try to, take a nice big bite out of S-K's ass with Lofwyr gone--either through estate taxes or outright control of all of his assets.

"Hey, Lofwyr's dead."
"Who's his immediate heir?" (this is assuming that the AGS or any other government will now respect the fact that as a non-(meta)human he has no effective rights.)
"Uh... no one?"
"Yay! It's ours! All ours!" (Show me a government lawyer who wouldn't try to argue that Lowfyr's estate reverts to the government since he has no heirs, and I'll show you an incompetent lawyer.)

Or, hell, someone will eventually bring up the fact that someone needs to take control of S-K's banks because, quite simply, they cannot be held in limbo while god knows how many people fight over his estate. That would drag in any country in which S-K's banks are located, plus the Z-OG bank and Corp Court. Countries do drastic things when the basic integrity of their economies is at stake.

Basically, Lofwyr's death would be monumentally destructive--and he knows it. It is also a pretty good reason why no one in a position to try actually has.
mfb
heh, yeah. he's SR's version of Raven.
Crimsondude 2.0
Raven with infinitely more power.
noneuklid
Does that mean he gets the tat on his draconic forehead?
Crimsondude 2.0
I think it's pretty much assumed.

That and the other tat he'd have to get that said, "Bad Motherfucker."
noneuklid
C'mon, that could be any of us before the age of 25! Just bank on those Columbian drug lords.
Adarael
What would it be?
"Poor Appetite Control", because of Glasgian Oakforest?
Cochise
QUOTE (tanka)
Bandersnatch is an HMHVV infected Sasquatch (though it never says which version of HMHVV, just "infected with a vampiric virus")

Since they have the Pestilence(HMHVV-2) Power I find it rather obvious which strain has infected them ...

QUOTE
it's possible a Sasquatch is a very, very different form of metahuman.  (They do show a lot of similarities.)


Yet so far they have not been described as being part of the metahumanity.
And that was sort of the whole point: Although the virus strains all have that human / metahuman tag, that doesn't necessarily restrict them to human and metahumans. Just like HIV can infect other species than just mankind ...

That doesn't mean that I'm advocating vampiric dragons. Especially not when the initial idea was to get rid of Lofwyr or any other GD.
Johnny Reb
Yeah, the opening idea wasn't "Vampiric Dragon Lofwyr" but what happens if a big player is killed off. One of those possible kills being Lofwyr, I was just tossing random stuff out for how he'd die (Tho, I must say, slipping in the tub is probably my fave).

Teh Vampire stuff was thinking that maybe teh Vampire Conspiracy thing would show up and have, like, thirty vampires jump ol' Golden Nose. It was a way to keeeeel him, not make him more over the top. smile.gif
Jrayjoker
I advocate for Lofwyr's death through an infected talon clipping yielding sepsis. Much more stupid and less tragic than falling in the tub.
toturi
I'd like to see Lowfyr die from drowning myself. Maybe Lowfyr went to his dragon sized potty and drowned.
Kagetenshi
Horror-corruption and subsequent takeover of the world.

~J
noneuklid
Well, I mean, seriously, if there's a dragon corpse lying around, how is a master sheddim NOT going to want it?
Sandoval Smith
I want to slay something clever, but I'm just sitting here in awe of the idea of Master Shedim Lofwyr.
Johnny Reb
Ooo. There's a plot hook with some fun potential ... the assassination attempt on Lofwyr a while back *was* successful, but, when he woke up, he was actually a Master Shedim in teh sam ebod. That's why he's had a downfall of sorts over the past couple of years ... Master Shedim or no, he just can't keep up with the REAL Lofwyr's plans. Hmm...

toturi
A Master Shedim wouldn't be dumb enough to possess Lowfyr's body.

All it will get is a boost to Lowfyr's physical stats and none of his mental stats and more importantly none of his Magic. He'll just be another big target. None of the uber GD super mojo. And all of the enemies a GD has.
noneuklid
But it *will* get his memories.
toturi
But can it understand them? If a mentally handicapped person were to get your memories, can he understand them? It would be the same as someone with normal intelligence getting Lowfyr's memories.
noneuklid
I'm not sure. I was under the impression master shedim are much higher Force than regular Shedim, and thus, possess attributes likewise far higher than normal. Since it absorbs the old being's personality, it seems likely it is capable of putting these memories into a coherent framework.
toturi
Master shedim follow the same rules as normal Shedim apart from the differences stated in Threats 2. You tell me there isn't any 1 Force normal Shedim?
noneuklid
No, but I would say that in canon, you will never find any force 1 Master Shedim. At the moment, this is an empty threat (there aren't any stats for any Master Shedim in canon), but "Master Shedim seem to treat standard shedim as simple servants and tools," seems telling to me of a rather vast gulf between the two.

And furthermore, of the Shedim fighting over the body of a dead Great, do you think a Force 1 is likely to win or a Force 10?
Jrayjoker
I don't see why it couldn't happen. All the Big L Shedim would need to do is isolate himself and corrupt those around him. Also, the Shedim would have access to all the tech, cash, influence, and magical backup of the real L. The biggest problem would be not being able to shape change I think. That ans having to deal with other GDs as Loremaster.
Foreigner
JohnnyReb:

First of all, let me say that I'm a relative newcomer to SHADOWRUN.
I've been involved in an online campaign on-and-off for just over a year, but I haven't completed but one 'run with the group due to time constraints.

If you check out the following adventures on Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace, you'll find something that MIGHT work.

(At the very least, you might find some useful ideas.)


Here they are:

Crossfire;

Inner Demons; and

Dark Reflection.

While they all have essentially the same cast of characters, and Dark Reflection is the one you want, I would recommend that you read all three, just to get a feel for the characters.

IIRC, that story had something to do with using Blood Magic to open a portal between the Horrors' dimension and ours. The ritual involved was the murder of a Great Western Dragon (don't worry, he wasn't one of the canonical ones wink.gif ). He was killed using a mixture of very heavy conventional firepower (at least one Great Dragon ATGM, I believe, among other things) and magic. His life force was then stolen to power the ritual which I mentioned above.

Depending upon your GM (I'm presuming that you're a player and not a GM; please forgive me if I'm mistaken), you might be able to try something similar in-game but, personally, I would advise against it. If your character were to even attempt such a thing, whether or not he succeeded would be a moot point. He would immediately incur the wrath of almost every other Great Dragon (possibly including Alamaise, Lofwyr's estranged brother (I think smile.gif)), as well as possibly all of the surviving Immortal Elves--or at least the ones who are on good terms with the Dragons.

IMHO, such a thing, while it has the potential to make a PC fabulously wealthy if they are successful, does not sound conducive to a long lifespan.

However, the final decision is, of course, up to you and/or your GM.

Whatever you decide, Good Luck. If he goes after Lofwyr, I think your character is going to need it. wink.gif

--Foreigner
Kagetenshi
Again, there's no evidence that Great Dragons intrinsically have anything against the killing of other Great Dragons.

~J
Johnny Reb
Psst. Foreigner. Note that in now way, shape, or form will any PC I have ever do something so silly as to go dragon hunting. They're mainly worried about where the next Soyburger comes from and dodging the landlady. smile.gif

The "Big player dies" thing is more for a story arc.

Odd that no one's run with any of the others, tho. No comments on what'd happen if, say, the UTE, starving and desperate, rolled against the Tir and got counter-attacked into goo or if Aztechnology went under.

Weird.
Foreigner
Sorry, Johnny Reb.

My bad. frown.gif

From the way you were soliciting opinions (or at least, appeared to be doing so), I thought that you were serious. smile.gif

--Foreigner
CircuitBoyBlue
The first campaign I was in had Aztechnology go under. Main effect of that was all the other megacorps leapt all over each other trying to gobble up the pieces. Ares wound up with a good chunk of Aztlan, but most of it went independent because one of the NPCs in the campaign had a diabolical plan that involved making it not worth Ares' time to go too far south. The big A's blood magicians were suddenly free to travel the world and work for whoever they wanted, which barely came up because we preferred to have magic be a pretty rare thing in our campaign, to the extent that there were no magically active player characters. We pretty much ignored the bit about Aztechnology's president being some supernatural being or contstruct, because it's stupid.
Johnny Reb
Nobody considered what happens when teh current pope dies, or even Harley?

C'mon, one of you *had* to want to off Harlequin, right? Or Ehran the Scribe?

No?
mfb
ugh. let's not talk about killing harley and ehran again.
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