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Cynic project
If I shoot randomly at a guy in full body armour let's just say it is 9/9.

If one of those points comes from a helmet. Would he then only have one point of armour? And if so why? I mean would it mean that normally every non aimed shot some how hit his head? Or that by having something over his head that the rest of the armour on his body is some how harder?
Herald of Verjigorm
No, aiming is just fine. The silly part is trying to add hit locations by way of called shots into Shadowrun.

IIRC, the total armor based on cyberlimb armor accounts for 6 locations, all averaged equally. Therefore, for a helmet to provide 1 point of armor total, it must have between 6 and 11 effective armor for just the wearer's head. If my base number is wrong, adjust my resultant numbers accordingly.
mfb
that's not quite how it works. helmet ratings are not the same as regular armor ratings; rather than listing how much armor a helmet has, the books list how much more armor a helmet provides. i tend to assume that means that helmets have an armor rating equal to the base armor they're made for, plus the bonus. regardless, however, you don't average a helmet's rating by location; that only applies to cyberlimb armor.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Cynic project)
If I shoot randomly at a guy in full body armour let's just say it is 9/9.

If one of those points comes from a helmet. Would he then only have one point of armour? And if so why? I mean would it mean that normally every non aimed shot some how hit his head? Or that by having something over his head that the rest of the armour on his body is some how harder?

LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.
Herald of Verjigorm
True, that's not how it works, but it's the only thing that even vaguely resembles an answer to his question that isn't pure house-ruling.
mfb
er, well, your answer is pure house-ruling. there are already rules for how helmets work; they're completely different from the rules for how cyberlimb armor work. applying the cyberlimb armor rules to helmets is, well, pretty much pure house-rule.

at any rate, the rules don't cover shooting helmets. you pretty much just have to house-rule it.
Shrapnel
In my opinion, the helmet bonus just reflects the over-all armor of the target.

Keep in mind that Shadowrun doesn't use a hit location, it simply stages up damage based on successes. So, a hit with only 1 success could be said to have hit armor, and therefore easier to resist. A hit with 8 successes that wasn't staged down could be roleplayed to hit an unarmored location, such as a head, or inbetween armor plates.

If you use the house-rule for called shots bypassing armor, this idea still works. If you aim for the head, and only get 1 success, it could be a grazing shot, or perhaps hit low, such as the shoulder. This idea also works with the canon rule for called shots, by staging up damage, reflecting a better shot but still a chance to be restricted by armor, based on successes.

The whole point is to NOT have to worry about hit locations. It's all abstract, and only successes matter. The armor bonus for the helmet simply shows that it would be harder to get a good hit with a normal shot, because a higher percentage of the target is armored, and there are less weak points to aim at.
Cynic project
QUOTE (mfb)
that's not quite how it works. helmet ratings are not the same as regular armor ratings; rather than listing how much armor a helmet has, the books list how much more armor a helmet provides. i tend to assume that means that helmets have an armor rating equal to the base armor they're made for, plus the bonus. regardless, however, you don't average a helmet's rating by location; that only applies to cyberlimb armor.

Okay let's say a man in a really nice VEST that say gives him 4/3, and FBA level 3 witch gives him 4/1. What would his armour be if it was a called shot to his head?Arm?Chest?

Now, most shots go for the chest,right? SO this some what easy to write off. But what happens when he is wearing only armoured pants and someone shoots at his legs?Better yet, what if those pants she was wearing where milspec,harden armour?
Arethusa
QUOTE (Cynic project)
QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 8 2005, 05:16 PM)
that's not quite how it works. helmet ratings are not the same as regular armor ratings; rather than listing how much armor a helmet has, the books list how much more armor a helmet provides. i tend to assume that means that helmets have an armor rating equal to the base armor they're made for, plus the bonus. regardless, however, you don't average a helmet's rating by location; that only applies to cyberlimb armor.

Okay let's say a man in a really nice VEST that say gives him 4/3, and FBA level 3 witch gives him 4/1. What would his armour be if it was a called shot to his head?Arm?Chest?

Now, most shots go for the chest,right? SO this some what easy to write off. But what happens when he is wearing only armoured pants and someone shoots at his legs?Better yet, what if those pants she was wearing where milspec,harden armour?

LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.
mfb
according to the FAQ, a headshot against someone in a vest (4/3) and FFBA3 (4/1) would meet an armor rating of 4, since the only thing that covers the head is the FFBA. a a torso hit woult meet armor 6 (vest 4 +1/2 the FFBA). if you consider the FAQ canon, there's your answer.

before you ask any more questions about this, though, you should really do a search of the forums for "called shot". this topic has been done to death many, many times.
Fix-it
flaming idiots aside,

Cynic, I don't think you read the rules very well. Called shots only stage up damage, at the expense of a higher TN. it doesn't matter WHERE the shot is called. it could be his right pinky finger for all we care. while it's retarded when you think about it, it's a lot simpler than having to keep track of armor on all possible locations of the body. It would be like trying to play battletech and Shadowrun simultaneously.

Fortune
The controversial FAQ response ...

QUOTE
Q: Do called shots in ranged combat bypass armor, like they can in melee combat?

A: When handling called shots, for either melee or ranged combat, gamemasters should use the rules on p. 114, SR3 (ie., calling a shot is a Free Action, called shots receive a +4 target number modifier, etc) along with the following rules. The player calling the shot can choose one result from the following three options:

1. The Damage Code is increased by one Level (as stated on p. 114, SR3). The target's regular armor applies.

2. The attack bypasses the target's armor. In this case, the attack's Damage Code is not modified, but the Power is not reduced by armor bonuses. (Note that the attacker can simply choose a location on the target that is less armored, rather than bypassing the armor completely, so that only the armor in that location applies).

3. Target a smaller part of a larger target (such as the tires on a vehicle).
Arethusa
QUOTE (Fix-it)
flaming idiots aside,

Cynic, I don't think you read the rules very well. Called shots only stage up damage, at the expense of a higher TN. it doesn't matter WHERE the shot is called. it could be his right pinky finger for all we care. while it's retarded when you think about it, it's a lot simpler than having to keep track of armor on all possible locations of the body. It would be like trying to play battletech and Shadowrun simultaneously.

See, that's funny, considering that the FAQ has responded saying you can call a shot to bypass armor, stage up damage, or cause a specific effect.

This entire subject has been done to fucking death. I don't know why this thread isn't dead yet, considering a quick search can give you hours of obnoxious debate that few of us really feel like stomaching all over again.

So, Cynic, SR does not do hit locations. If you want hit locations, house rules exist. Otherwise, just stop right there and stop thinking about how much armor you get depending on where you're hit. There's no sense in reliving the exact same arguments all over again.
Lindt
Im with Arethusa on this one...

LLALALALALALALALALAL I CANT HEAR YOU!!!
Adam
ahem. Let's cut back on the name calling and the 8 year old antics, please.

Yes, the topic has been done to death; so inject something new or let it die, please.
John Campbell
Y'know, the real problem here is the ability to call shots at all. It doesn't work with a generalized damage system. Given that Shadowrun's combat mechanic allows good hits and bad hits based on degree of success in the shooting test, I'm not seeing that it's really necessary to have an additional mechanic that allows you to shoot someone in a specific place to bypass armor or hit their vulnerable spots or whatnot. Just roll your attack and assume that you're always trying your best to bypass your target's armor and shoot it in its most vulnerable spots and so on. If you got lots of successes and they failed to stage it down, then you did it. If you didn't get many successes and they easily soaked the damage, then you must have failed to miss the armor.
hobgoblin
a declared called shot basicly means that rather then aiming center of mass, fireing some lead down range and pray to god you dont hit armor your infact limiting yourself to a area of the person that will give you either a damage increase (some vital area) or a armor effect decrease (joints, limbs whatever).

the logic works as long as you dont expect the player to state any more then "called shot for damage increase" or "called shot for armor decrease".

its only when going after targets like cars where takeing out a tire may force the driver to do a crash test and stop (or atleast get a worse handleing stat, gms option) that you have to declare exactly what your aiming for.

problem is that people see "called shot" and automaticly think that they have to decleare stuff like head shots, limb shots and so on...

and soaking damage have nothing to do with armor outside of the fact that armor helps in soaking damage. in that way the armor system in sr isnt that bad. if shot while wearing a vest you will still feel the impact but unless your a undertrained geek like me you will most likely just go ouch and fire back, but the bullet may still crack a rib and force that into a lung (serious damage anyone) on a bad body roll. damage dont have to come from the bullet directly, just like blunt trauma rarely create a lot of visual blod effects but may still kill (by damageing some organ so that you bleed to death internaly).

there are way more ways to die then bleeding to death all over the floor.

if you want a realy nice damage system, take a look at blue planet. there you dont have a set damage track or stun damage. even a fist can kill if one side rolls good and is strong and the other side rolls way bad. aiming there basicly results in the to hit target number goes up pr point of "damage" that goes up.
Shrapnel
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
the logic works as long as you dont expect the player to state any more then "called shot for damage increase" or "called shot for armor decrease".

its only when going after targets like cars where takeing out a tire may force the driver to do a crash test and stop (or atleast get a worse handleing stat, gms option) that you have to declare exactly what your aiming for.

You can also make called shots for a specific target on a person for a specific effect, such as shooting a gun out of someone's hand, shooting the hat off of their head, or the cigarette out of their mouth.

Generally though, these would be non-damaging, and not subject to the increased damage level. (Unless you were trying to shoot the hat from straight down, or the cigarette from straight ahead... grinbig.gif )

I do agree with the number of net successes basically determining the hit location, which is then based on GM discription and roleplaying.

I also agree with your premise that not all wounds have to penetrate armor. I have always imagined a light wound as either a grazing shot, or a severe bruise from the impact. It's all up to the imagination.
Kagetenshi
IIRC, targeting a specific part of a person for special effect (gun, hat, cigarette) is explicitly forbidden.

~J
mfb
that's only for spells.
Shrapnel
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 9 2005, 03:55 PM)
IIRC, targeting a specific part of a person for special effect (gun, hat, cigarette) is explicitly forbidden.

~J

Looks like you might be right...

Keep in mind, I'm still stuck in 2nd Edition, but my rulebook (pg. 92) says:

QUOTE
A specific sub-target of something vehicle-sized or larger can be hit, such as the windows or tires on a vehicle.


Now, would a troll be classified as "vehicle-sized"? After all, they are probably larger than some bikes out there... wink.gif

I guess this is just a house rule I have always used, without ever realizing it. I personally think it does at to the flavor of the game, by allowing more "Hollywood" style action scenes.

So, is it okay to shoot them in the hand, but not the gun?
Kagetenshi
Nope. Under those rules it would be ok to shoot them in an unspecified unarmored portion, or an unspecified vulnerable portion, but not a specific sub-target (like, say, the hand).

~J
Shrapnel
Yeah, that's pretty much what I gathered from rereading the rules.

So, you basically can't specify WHERE you shoot them, just that it does more damage, or bypasses armor.

I still prefer the theatrical value of shooting guns out of people's hands, or knee-capping them, but I do understand the rules as written. All effects are based on number of successes, not hit location.
Critias
You can always describe it as an uber-L33T headshot, or kneecapping, or what-have-you. It's just that the actual game result is always just the generic "bypass armor" or "stage up damage by one."
Kagetenshi
Though it's best to wait on that until after the dice go down. If you hit them with D+12 successes, you hit them square in the brainpan. If you got eleven ones and a single success for a total of L damage, you managed to screw up and hit them in the foot or something.

~J
Shrapnel
But would you guys personally allow it, as GM, if someone wanted to shoot someone in the leg to slow them down?

I personally don't think that it is too far fetched of an idea, but your opinions are far more respected around here than mine. After all, I am just a "Target", still stuck in 2nd Edition... frown.gif
toturi
No, the SR3 rules are, by their very nature, abstract and the called shot mechanic itself is an abstraction so, no I wouldn't allow allowing called shots to the leg to slow down people. But you may apply damage as per Wound effects as per rules in M & M.

BTW, if you get into an argument with someone, you'll learn to dodge pretty quickly. And you'll be a Moving/Running Target in no time.
Kagetenshi
I, on the other hand, would allow it. I would never, however, write it into the rules. I think it can only be done on an extremely case-by-case basis, and is thus inappropriate for a widely-used set of rules.

~J
Shrapnel
You see, I always tend to see Shadowrun kinda like a movie... The hero is always running and dodging, rolling across the floor, and doing things like jumping from rooftops into moving helicopters.

I always imagine a scene like the end of the first Bad Boys movie... Bad guy is running away, and instead of shooting him in the back, the hero shoots him in the leg, and he drops to the ground.

I really enjoy the theatrical aspects of the game. I really like to encourage players to be creative, and find a new solution to their problem. Of course, the fact that things can get screwed up REALLY fast, and people can end up dead quick, only adds to the excitement.

*Edited to say "INTO" and not "ONTO" moving helicopters... eek.gif biggrin.gif
kevyn668
Player: "We need him alive so I shoot him in the leg."
GM: "You can't."
Player: "Why not?!"
GM: "Because the rules say you can't."
Player: "#^*&^!*&!!"
GM: "Do you still want to shoot him?"
Player: <shrugs> "Sure. He'll get away otherwise."
*dice rolling*
GM: "Um, you rolled rolled really well and he didn't. Did you guys have a backup plan?"
Player: "^(*#&($^@#)Q(*$^(<breath>)*&#@^(*^&R%&#(*!!!"

Case by case seems the way to go. What's the point of calling a shot if you can't call where its headed? Use your GM power wisely. smile.gif

toturi
That's what capsule and gel rounds are for. Besides...

GM: OK, go ahead and shoot him in the leg.
Dice roll
Player: Yeah, I hit him!
GM: Too well, man. He just died from the shock of your leg shot.
Crusher Bob
Note that there is a sentence in the called shot rules allowing for 'other effects' at the GMs discretion. This allows you to shoot people in the legs to slow them down or shoot the guns out of their hands, or whatever.
Critias
NOTHING IS ALLOWED UNLESS THE RULES SPECIFICALY DETAIL IT.

Guards! Seize this man!
toturi
The rules specifically allow the GM to allow anything he deems appropriate.
Modesitt
I hate that FAQ for one simple reason: It doesn't even remember all of the options for a called shot listed IN THE RULES!

Go read Page 134, M&M, right column, Called Shots And Wound Effects. Making it so "I shoot him in the leg" is an attribute wound effect that gives his Quickness stress is perfectly justifiable in the rules as written. If you check the Attribute Failure table on 130, you'll see negatives to the attribute and so on.

This is the ONLY time you should ever try to use the stress rules. Namely, when a player specifically tries to use the rules or the GM specifically trying to use the rules on a player. They're WAY too clunky and chart-centric for general use.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Note that there is a sentence in the called shot rules allowing for 'other effects' at the GMs discretion. This allows you to shoot people in the legs to slow them down or shoot the guns out of their hands, or whatever.

As I mentioned, that's specifically for vehicle-sized or larger objects.

~J
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