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Luca
i'm a bit new of this game and so probably I'm asking something obvious.
Can dice pools only be used in combats?
I think that they must be used in combat, one of my players is not so sure about that.
If a rigger is trying to drive a rotorwing is a storm (but not in combat) is it allowed to use control pool or he must only rely on Karma pool?
mfb
control pool can be used anytime you're controlling a rigged vehicle.
James McMurray
You can use any of your pools outside of combat, even the combat pool. For example, if you are in target practice or a competition, you can use combat pool to add to your shot.

If you couldn't, then you would be better at shooting targets while in a firefight than when out of one. smile.gif

"Dammit! I just can't seem to hit the target today. Joe, can I get you to fire off a few rounds at me?"
Aes
IIRC, Combat pool can be used for combat maneuvers (IE: stuff that involves weapon), control pool for anything that relates to vehicles (while jacked in and rigging), hacking pool to anything related to decking (while running hot ASIST), spell pool to all magicky stuff and task pool to all kinds of nice stuff (B/R etc).
Crimson Jack
QUOTE
Players may allocate dice from the Combat Pool to any offensive or defensive combat-related tests, such as Pistols, Bows, Throwing Weapons, Clubs, Unarmed Combat or any similar offensive Combat Skill Tests.  They may also use dice from the Combat Pool to dodge and help resist damage from normal attacks.


By the letter of the law, your Combat Pool can be used outside of combat.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Crimson Jack)
QUOTE
Players may allocate dice from the Combat Pool to any offensive or defensive combat-related tests, such as Pistols, Bows, Throwing Weapons, Clubs, Unarmed Combat or any similar offensive Combat Skill Tests.  They may also use dice from the Combat Pool to dodge and help resist damage from normal attacks.


By the letter of the law, your Combat Pool can be used outside of combat.

Combat pool is just a name. It could be called action pool and do the same thing. Besides any skill that you could use it,are used mainly in combat. Yes, you can use those dice to shot a target, at a shooting range. But if you some how couldn't do,then could use combat pool to shot someone with a sniper rifle?
Crimson Jack
Right. That was my point. What do mean by your last question CP?
Sandoval Smith
He meant what would the logic be in not being able to use combat pool to shoot at a picture of a man, but if you shift a little to the left, to the guy sitting next to the picture, you suddenly have all of these extra dice.
Crimson Jack
Ah, okay. I wasn't sure if that was a rhetorical question or something he was posing in retort. That makes sense and I agree. nyahnyah.gif
Luca
It does not make sense to me to use too often the dice pools outside combat. The problem is that one do not know how to manage the regeneration of dices.
A rigger have to do a drive test outside combat: he is driving a car on an old road which runs too near to a cliff during a storm. HE is in a stress situation, therefore he uses the control pool for the test and he is successful. 4 seconds after the first test a tree fall in the middle of the road and the rigger want to brake and(again) not fall out of the cliff. He can use still the control pool, but how much the pool is regenerated? OK, the tree fell 4 seconds after the first test, so because a combat turn is 3 seconds, one must suggest that the pool is regenerated.....but what happens if the tree fell 2 seconds after the first test?
I know the example is absurd and the Master can make his life easy simply by putting the tree to fall after 3 seconds....but what exactly happens in situation like these?
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (Luca)
The problem is that one do not know how to manage the regeneration of dices.

Have the pool refresh after the taxing scene. Once the stress is gone... POOF... dice pool regenerates. Just a thought.
tisoz
QUOTE (Luca)
It does not make sense to me to use too often the dice pools outside combat. The problem is that one do not know how to manage the regeneration of dices.
A rigger have to do a drive test outside combat: he is driving a car on an old road which runs too near to a cliff during a storm. HE is in a stress situation, therefore he uses the control pool for the test and he is successful. 4 seconds after the first test a tree fall in the middle of the road and the rigger want to brake and(again) not fall out of the cliff. He can use still the control pool, but how much the pool is regenerated? OK, the tree fell 4 seconds after the first test, so because a combat turn is 3 seconds, one must suggest that the pool is regenerated.....but what happens if the tree fell 2 seconds after the first test?
I know the example is absurd and the Master can make his life easy simply by putting the tree to fall after 3 seconds....but what exactly happens in situation like these?

I'd call it combat, man vs nature.
mintcar
The rules for dice pools only make sense if they are only used in situations where there´s some kind of opposition. I don´t think characters are ment to be twice as good at stuff they use pools for. I see pools as a means of puting some stratagy into certain important situations. When you are in a combat situation, having your combat pool handy doesn´t automaticly improve your chanses because your opponent also has one to counter with. Dice pools can only be a manageble game mechanic if you only use them in antagonistic situations, or complex procedures like rital sorcery. I would never allow any dice from any pool eccept task pool to be used in a single skill test out of combat. Yes it seems unfair, but the game doesn´t make any sense if this is handled differently. Why would a character with no combat training be able to double her chances when shooting a target, while being stuck with her basic skill when doing the thing she´s really good at, what ever it is? I think this is the big dilemma.

My solution is to keep a strict difference between situations where pools are used and situations where its not used. When a pool is used, there should be an opposing force also using the same pool (unless the opposing force is unable to use said pool, in wich case there is an appropriate advantage). There are a few exceptions to this: One is when there´s a complex procedure going on, like some cases of ritual sorcery or enchanting. There is no opposing force, but the reason for using dice pools is the same; to put some strategy into the procedure in this case. The purpose is NOT to make you better at preforming the procedure than you would be in a single skill test. And these situations are resolved in a manner that compensates the extra dice with several, additional, difficult tests so that isn´t even the case. The other exception is task pool, wich I think is a bit confusing. It´s not really like the other pools, because it´s really just a bonus gained from certain cyberware.

Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (mintcar)
Why would a character with no combat training be able to double her chances when shooting a target, while being stuck with her basic skill when doing the thing she´s really good at, what ever it is? I think this is the big dilemma.

There's only a dilemma there if you assume that a "success" in a "test" is a concrete thing and always describes the ability of the character acting instead of the nature of what is happening, and that successes in different kinds of tests are always equal in value and mean the exact same thing.

In other words, it's only a problem if you assume that getting 4 successes in shooting at a paper target on a shooting range means that you are a good shooter, and getting 2 successes in repairing a bike means you're a bad mechanic, and the two together mean that you are twice as good at shooting as you are at repairing bikes.

But successes aren't meant to work like that. Getting 4 successes when shooting at a paper target doesn't make you a good shooter, nor is the degree of success meaningfully comparable to the degree success of a mechanic who got N successes on his/her test. Successes are a purely abstract system of indicating how well you succeed at something, and can only meaningfully be compared to some other successes when the parameters of the tests are 100% equal -- and even then it's more and indicator of what's abstracted as "luck" (dice rolls) than of skill.

I'm interested in how you then explain the fact that characters tend to manage certain tasks much easier during combat than they would outside of combat. For example, under your ruling a sniper is twice as likely to hit a still vehicle when someone is shooting at him/her (but missing, thus no or little CP spent on Dodging) than s/he would be if s/he were to try to hit the same vehicle at his leisure.
Luca
Sorry if it could seem dumb to ask it again but i'm quite new to Shadowrun rules, expecially 3rd edition.
SO, IN summary, in the above example you are for regenerating or not the pool between the two tests? Consider that it is not a combat in the normal sense and there are no combat turns or combat passes (who can calculate the reaction of a falling tree?)
Sandoval Smith
If you are going to be throwing repeated tests at a character, then the pools should regenerate every three seconds.

I can't think of a situation where you would need to make a test, but would not be able to use an associated pool. They get to use just as many dice shooting the picture of a man as they do the man.
mintcar
Austere Emancipator: You do have a point. But do you not agree that the purpouse of a skill test is simply to find out how well you succed, and the purpous of combat pool is to add tactics to combat. Why then roll twice as many dice when there is no element of tactics in using the die pool? Then adjust the difference between that and a regular test by enterpreting the amount of successes differently? Doesn´t it make more sense to lower the difficulty to hit the target when there´s no stress? Or to apply more penalties for being under fire? This is allready part of the game.

My point is that you should be consistent in your use of dice pools, and it makes more sense not to use them in single skill tests.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (mintcar)
But do you not agree that [...] the purpous of combat pool is to add tactics to combat.

No, I don't agree it's necessarily tactics that it adds to combat, I think of it more as what you concentrate on in combat. Regardless of your tactics or lack thereof, you can take a snapshot at the enemy while dedicating yourself mostly to staying out of the way of the incoming bullets (spending all CP on Dodging, none on shooting) or you can concentrate on the shooting while paying little attention to incoming fire (spending all CP on shooting, none on Dodging).

For example, while moving accross a 6-meter-wide street, if a character uses all his CP on Dodging and none on shooting, while still taking a few quick shots at an opponent, I visualize that as him sprinting in a semi-crouched position and making every effort to use cover effectively, to make him as small a target as possible, etc. and paying little attention to what he's shooting at.

On the other hand, if the same character were using all his CP on shooting and none on Dodging, I see that as him jogging/sidestepping quickly but steadily accross the street in an upright position while concentrating on his opponent and firing a few accurate shots.

QUOTE (mintcar)
Then adjust the difference between that and a regular test by enterpreting the amount of successes differently?

The tests where Combat or Control Pool are applicable are completely separate from the tests where they aren't, so you have to "interprete" the successes differently anyway. 4 successes in melee combat cannot possibly mean the exact same thing as 4 successes in Electronics.

QUOTE (mintcar)
Doesn´t it make more sense to lower the difficulty to hit the target when there´s no stress? Or to apply more penalties for being under fire? This is allready part of the game.

No it isn't. At least I have never noticed any penalties to ranged attacks for being under stress or under fire.

[Edit]Screw gender-neutrality, it's too much trouble, and plural forms just don't fit these kinds of examples.[/Edit]
hahnsoo
I've always thought that Pool dice represents natural talent, the contribution of Attributes to the active use of skills. After all, they are directly calculated from your attributes (with some modification from things like VCR, Encephalon, Tactical Computers and other ware). While this can represent tactical knowledge (as evidenced by the Tactical Computer), it probably is a lot more than just that.
Austere Emancipator
Perhaps I should correct my above message to say that I think of the use of Combat Pool as representing what you concentrate on in combat. I certainly did not mean to suggest that those with greater Combat Pools are better at concentrating or anything of the sort.
mintcar
1: What you are describing are tactical choices in combat, and represent exactly the reason for having dice pools in the game.

2: Fine, but that doesn´t give any good reason for using combat pool in single skill tests.

3: The use of modifiers is a mechanic heavily used in the game. A few more would easily solve your concern about the sniper. And it would be a much better solution than using combat pool out of combat, in my point of view. Read below for more reasoning on this. I´m beginning to swing your way.

My opinion is still that there´s no reason for using dice pools except in situations that are trailed in detail by the rules, like in combat. (again, task pool aside)

Having said that, I have to say you are making more sense than I would like to admit. I still think the reason for using pools dissapear when a single test should be preformed. But the possebility of enterpreting successes differently when using dice pools opens for an even more consistant use of dice pools. It is tempting to be able to give the simple anwer "sure, you can always use them" when players ask if they can use their dice pool. I just think that there needs to be a line between pools and no pools. And that line can not go between the combat skills and the social skills. I´d much rather have it go between combat and no combat.

I think that I´ve always enterpreted successes differently depending on if its combat or not. So I would probably say shooting a target at the shooting range is more similar to using a B/R skill or something, in terms of how the skill is used in the game and why. You´re simply out to determine if the test succeeds and how good. If, on the other hand a sniper is not in a combat situation, but will engage combat by his shot, targeting a vehicle or a person —then I would allow full use of combat pool, naturally. There really does need to be a very clear difference between tests made with pools and tests without. Maybe its easier to define conditions when pools cannot be used. You know, those situations covered in the "skills" chapter in the BBB as opposed to the "magic" or "combat" chapter.

So instead of using modifiers to even things up (I trash that idea even though it was mine) you would tell the character who gets one success when shooting a target, then gets five when shooting his friend in the leg, that its two entirely different situations in the game and the extra successes go towards more damage that is then soaked by the target. What would you tell the guy running around the stadium while someone else is at the shooting range? Whats the reason then that one gets twice as many dice?
James McMurray
So let's say I'm shooting at a target, TN6, I need one success to hit it. I've got pistols 4, so I've got a decent chance to hit it. But then someone starts shooting at me. I ignore the shots and keep firing at my target, but sine I'm not in combat I can add 4 combat pool dice and greatly increase my chance to hit the target?
mfb
you can use your combat pool any time you shoot a gun, even when no one's shooting back at you.
James McMurray
That's the way I do it too. Mine was more of a question to those that say you can't use pool out of combat. I'm wondering how they rationalize the above scenario.
mfb
ah. yes, i agree. i think that if using combat pool outside combat doesn't make sense to you, you're probably looking at it the wrong way. combat pool is purely a game mechanic; if the fluff you've come up with for combat pool conflicts with the mechanics, change the fluff.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mintcar)
2: Fine, but that doesn´t give any good reason for using combat pool in single skill tests.

Because you're not having to spend any attention whatsoever to dodging or soaking damage. All of your attention is focused on making the shot.

~J
mfb
mintcar, your method is extremely complicated, requires several rules changes, and doesn't add anything to the game that i can see. it's much simpler to change the rationalization you're using for why dice pools do what they do; that way, everything's the same, there are no rules changes, and the game still works fine. i just don't see any strong reason to not allow the use of pools outside combat.
Austere Emancipator
Thanks all for making my point for me clearly and concisely.

QUOTE (mintcar)
1: What you are describing are tactical choices in combat, and represent exactly the reason for having dice pools in the game.

To me, "tactics" is on a larger scale than that: movement patterns, target choosing, etc. Not so much the minor issues like exactly how much of yourself you present around a corner for how long a time when taking a shot. But since I figure neither of us isn't a native English speaker, and it isn't really central to the issue, I guess we shouldn't get bogged down on that.

QUOTE (mintcar)
2: Fine, but that doesn´t give any good reason for using combat pool in single skill tests.

To me it does. On a firing range, you can concentrate fully on shooting and don't have to bother yourself with dodging, etc. If you concentrate just as much on shooting in the firing range as you would in combat when you aren't dodging, then why wouldn't you get the CP for it?

QUOTE (mintcar)
3: The use of modifiers is a mechanic heavily used in the game. A few more would easily solve your concern about the sniper. And it would be a much better solution than using combat pool out of combat, in my point of view.

You could say the different dice Pools are also a heavily used mechanic in the game, and I think they deal with the stress of combat situations in a far superior way than any TN modifiers ever could.

-1 TN when not being fired at? What if you were fired at 3 CTs ago? 1 CT ago? +2 TN for being under heavy fire? What's the limit, 5 shots per CT? 10 shots per CT? With Combat Pool, you as a GM don't have to make such judgement calls -- the player himself decides whether his character is concentrating more on staying away from the line of fire or on hitting his targets.

QUOTE (mintcar)
And that line can not go between the combat skills and the social skills.

Why not? That distinction, of combat skills vs non-combat skills, is already clearly defined in the rules. You know exactly when Combat Pool can be used and when it can't be. Restricting CP the other way, you as a GM now have to make judgement calls about what counts as a combat situation and what does not, and you also run into the problem of people being more accurate in combat than on a firing range.

QUOTE (mintcar)
I would probably say shooting a target at the shooting range is more similar to using a B/R skill or something, in terms of how the skill is used in the game and why. You´re simply out to determine if the test succeeds and how good.

That is just as much the case when you're trying to fire at a moving target that also happens to fire back. The test is still there just to determine whether you succeed and how well you do it. The fact that there is an additional game mechanic (Dodge and Damage Resistance tests) before you get the final "grade of success" does not mess with this basic statement.

QUOTE (mintcar)
If, on the other hand a sniper is not in a combat situation, but will engage combat by his shot, targeting a vehicle or a person —then I would allow full use of combat pool, naturally.

Why? For the sniper, this is exactly the same as shooting at a human-like target on a range under the same conditions. The test is the same, the TN is the same. The sniper might even go unnoticed after the shot, in which case there is no actual "combat" in any case -- just one shot and a lot of shuffling about afterwards.

QUOTE (mintcar)
So instead of using modifiers to even things up (I trash that idea even though it was mine) you would tell the character who gets one success when shooting a target, then gets five when shooting his friend in the leg, that its two entirely different situations in the game and the extra successes go towards more damage that is then soaked by the target. What would you tell the guy running around the stadium while someone else is at the shooting range? Whats the reason then that one gets twice as many dice?

Very silly question. Like I said, the successes on something like an Athletics test to run around are in no way comparable to the successes on a Rifle test to hit a paper target on a shooting range. Apples and orange paint.

The grade of success of the runner is only compared to other runners in the same race (or for the same distance under certain, standardized conditions), in which case you can compare the successes scored (during a certain time period) between those runners. They will all get their dice for the tests according to the same principle: their Athletics skill and perhaps some bonuses from misc. places. From that comparison, you might be able to say that Runner A is "bad" or "good" or "excellent".

The grade of success of the shooter is only compared to other shooters firing on the same range (or at similar targets at the same distance under certain, standardized conditions), in which case you can compare the successes scored (over several shots) between those shooters. They will all get their dice according the same principle: their Rifle skill and Combat Pool and perhaps some bonuses from misc. places. From that comparison, you might be able to say that Shooter A is "bad" or "good" or "excellent".

Then you can compare the good (compared to other runners) Runner A to the excellent (compared to other shooters) Shooter A without trouble. They are now judged based on the same principle.

Am I still not making sense to you?
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Regardless of your tactics or lack thereof, you can take a snap shot at the enemy while dedicating yourself mostly to staying out of the way of the incoming bullets (spending all CP on Dodging, none on shooting) or you can concentrate on the shooting while paying little attention to incoming fire (spending all CP on shooting, none on Dodging).

For example, while moving accross a 6-meter-wide street, if a character uses all his CP on Dodging and none on shooting, while still taking a few quick shots at an opponent, I visualize that as him sprinting in a semi-crouched position and making every effort to use cover effectively, to make him as small a target as possible, etc. and paying little attention to what he's shooting at.

On the other hand, if the same character were using all his CP on shooting and none on Dodging, I see that as him jogging/sidestepping quickly but steadily accross the street in an upright position while concentrating on his opponent and firing a few accurate shots.
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Feb 2 2005, 05:05 AM)
Perhaps I should correct my above message to say that I think of the use of Combat Pool as representing what you concentrate on in combat. I certainly did not mean to suggest that those with greater Combat Pools are better at concentrating or anything of the sort.

This is the same way I think about the use of Combat Pool. It makes a lot of sense to me and it's easy to explain it to new players.
mintcar
My method of using combat pool doesn´t change the rules. Any rules changes I have sugested has been sugestions for solving any problems people might have with the rules as they stand.

Players may allocate dice from the combat pool to any offensive or defensive combat-related tests...

p 43 BBB


Now, I never even thought of interpreting this like you all do. But you may be right.

I´d like to emphesize that the only difference between yours and my way of using combat pool is that I only allow it in combat. It´s not like I changed the game for some reason. I just did what it said according to me.

If what I´ve been saying has made any sense to anyone, some out there might realize this:

I consider using dice pools in a simple, single skill test out of combat contradictory to the purpouse of dice pools.

Now, again: This is the way I read the rules, not some rule of my own.

But your probably right. YOU ALWAYS GET TO USE THE POOLS THEN

This is very important. It´s been a problem for ages. Maybe now it wont be. smile.gif
mintcar
You totally missed my point Kage! wobble.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mintcar)
You totally missed my point Kage! wobble.gif

You're right, I did. What was it again?

~J
mintcar
sarcastic.gif






Forget about it. I sort of missed YOUR point. Thought you ment making a single shot in combat.
mintcar
Look. I´ve obviously been confused when it comes to these things. You guys are totally right. And you seriously humbled me in a way, when I re-read this thread. Good work wink.gif


So would anyone care to explain this thoroughly. A "Complete imbicile´s guide to dice pools", if you will. I understand all the applications of the different dice pools and I also understand what you´ve been telling me in the previous posts. But I´d like a more comprehensive look at dice pools and the logic behind them from some insightful individual.

The way they´re described in the rules, I´ve always gotten the feeling that you can only use them when things are hot (p43 BBB). I never got it through my thick skull until now that they mean any time you use either combat, magic, decking or rigging. Wich incidently are the main chapters in the book, the basic core concepts of the game and have one dice pool each. This make these stand out from other activities, I guess. But there´s not a single example in any book I know of, detailing for example a simple driving test made by a rigger when not engaged in vehicle combat. And how he´s able to use maximum control pool. Some posters in the beginning of the thread prove I´m not the only one who didn´t grasp this. It seems clear to me now though.

However; the more I try to actually use all the rules of Shadowrun in my games the more complicated they seem. I need some deep understanding to be able to make judgement calls. Help me!
Nikoli
Well, for rigging, the only time you should ever need to make a skill check (thus the involvement of the control pool) is for dicey situations. you don't even need a single point in the skill to drive around normally unless normal driving includes mountainous cliff roads that are if you are lucky wide enough for a 1 cm margin of error and prone to rapid erosion..

In the Matrix book they do cover use of the hacking pool in writing your own programs IIRC and in MiTS for spell design, etc.
mintcar
Thanks, but I know that. Don´t make me go into a long explanation about my beef with dice pools again. Just tell me your over all view of dice pools and their place in the game. Mfb or someone told me to change my fluff. Well, I´m out to change my fluff.
hahnsoo
Again, think of dice pools as your natural talent... the contribution of your attributes and cyber to skills. Skill alone gives you X amount of dice. Talent/Raw Ability/Physical and Mental acuity give you another X amount of dice (which is your pool dice). It's an attempt on the part of the game mechanics to add the contributions of physical and mental parameters without a direct addition of attributes + skills. In d20, they distill attributes down to +/- modifiers to certain tasks and rolls. In Shadowrun, attributes contribute to dice pools.

It's also a tactical element of the game that gives Players the oh-so-wonderful feeling of choice. You choose to use your dice pools in a manner that you feel would contribute the best in a situation. In a sense, it's a way for Players to direct the action of a scene in their own way. In Castle Falkenstein, you are given 4 playing cards which you play at any time to modify the test of your choice. In Shadowrun, it's dice pools.
mintcar
Why does your natural attributes only help you in combat? I don´t like that.
Crimson Jack
They don't. Where did you get that idea from?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (mintcar)
Why does your natural attributes only help you in combat? I don´t like that.

Erm, they don't. In my games, dice pools are used whenever and whereever. If a person wants to take a single sniper shot out of a combat situation, they are free to dump up to their Skill in Combat Pool for that shot.
Austere Emancipator
You still seem to have problems with how Combat skills have a Pool associated with them in a way that other skills don't. You just need to get over it. The Combat Pool is essential for SR combat, and for logic's sake the CP has to come into play whenever Combat skills are used, whether it's an actual combat situation or not (as we went to great lengths to demonstrate).

There is no Technical Pool or Social Pool available for most players because those are not essential for gameplay. So you roll a few less dice for Social tests than in Combat tests in general. So what?
BitBasher
Also, combat pool is a limited number of dice that need to be divided tactically amongst a potentially large number of oppportunities to use it. In reality this varies dramatically from the idea of a social pool or task pool in that in those instances the pool equates to free dice because you really never have to use the skill twice so fast the pool dice don't come back.

The two are really not comparable.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Also, combat pool is a limited number of dice that need to be divided tactically amongst a potentially large number of oppportunities to use it. In reality this varies dramatically from the idea of a social pool or task pool in that in those instances the pool equates to free dice because you really never have to use the skill twice so fast the pool dice don't come back.

The two are really not comparable.

Heh. If you were playing a variant of Shadowrun where all of the characters are politicians in a debate, I could see the benefit of having a Social pool ("I allocate 3 dice to defend myself against Senator Kinsey's accusation"). *grin* Just kidding.
BitBasher
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 3 2005, 05:35 PM)
Also, combat pool is a limited number of dice that need to be divided tactically amongst a potentially large number of oppportunities to use it. In reality this varies dramatically from the idea of a social pool or task pool in that in those instances the pool equates to free dice because you really never have to use the skill twice so fast the pool dice don't come back.

The two are really not comparable.

Heh. If you were playing a variant of Shadowrun where all of the characters are politicians in a debate, I could see the benefit of having a Social pool ("I allocate 3 dice to defend myself against Senator Kinsey's accusation"). *grin* Just kidding.

I allocate three shadowrunners to kildnapping the good senatror's daughter to guarantee he bones the debate. wink.gif
mintcar
So basicly the answer is "get over it"?

I already said that I accept that combat pool can be used out of combat. But my last question has to do with something else.

"Why does your natural attributes only help you in combat?" was ment like this: Why do you need cyber or magic to enhance your preformance in any other task than combat (related skills)?

I´m getting tired of this. You proved your point, and I realised I had missinterpreted the rules. Now you have proven that the rules are simply screwed up, and we have to live with it. Ok fine.
tisoz
Do you need cyber to get a hacking pool?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (mintcar)
So basicly the answer is "get over it"?

I already said that I accept that combat pool can be used out of combat. But my last question has to do with something else.

"Why does your natural attributes only help you in combat?" was ment like this: Why do you need cyber or magic to enhance your preformance in any other task than combat (related skills)?

I´m getting tired of this. You proved your point, and I realised I had missinterpreted the rules. Now you have proven that the rules are simply screwed up, and we have to live with it. Ok fine.

Hey, no offense, buddy. I wasn't trying to insult you or anything, and I do think that it is important to raise such questions when it comes to developing a game mechanic that is right for you. I believe that there are a million and one ways of playing Shadowrun, and each group plays it differently. It just so happens that I used to play in a group that had a sort of "Social Task Pool" for certain situations (mostly to offset the unbalancing effect of Tailored Pheremones).

One possible reason that B/R, Knowledge, and Technical skills receive no such attribute bonuses is that the bulk of the application of the skill relies on skill alone. Also, the rolls involved in using B/R and Technical skills (not so much knowledge) are typically timed tasks, unlike combat success tests. As far as knowledge skills, an ability to sort data, make connections, and perceive differences (i.e. Higher intelligence) doesn't suddenly give you the capacity to remember details of things you haven't learned (although it does allow you to make intuitive guesses)... Knowledge skills are more like accumulated trivia that "sticks" to your character after years of living.
Crimson Jack
QUOTE
So basicly the answer is "get over it"?


Yes. That or adjust the rules so you can sleep at night.

QUOTE
"Why does your natural attributes only help you in combat?" was ment like this: Why do you need cyber or magic to enhance your preformance in any other task than combat (related skills)?


What game are you playing? You don't need cyberware or magic to enhance your preformance in any other task than combat-related skills. Seriously, what are you talking about?

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...the rules are simply screwed up, and we have to live with it. Ok fine.


No they're not. They make perfect sense as to their purpose.
Necro Tech
QUOTE (tisoz)
Do you need cyber to get a hacking pool?

No, its based on your intelligence and MPCP on a hot asist deck. No, it cant be used for programming. I wish.
mintcar
What??

It seems to be true that there are thousands of ways to play Shadowrun. Maybe that´s because every situation in the game is an exception. There are special rules for everything. Nothing holds together.

Guys, I´ve been playing this game for ten years and I´ve always defended it as one of the best systems out there. Only until resently I used the game mechanics when it suited me, and didn´t read to much into them. Now when I´m using more of the rules to try and bring more choices and challanges to my players, it just seems to much to keep track of.

Maybe I need to take the things I really like with the system, and overhaul the rest. Don´t worry, I wont bring it to the boards. It would just be begging for a bashing.
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